Leaving work on time frowned upon. Mod warning post 1

pgj2015

keep leaving at 4.30 op, even leave early sometimes, then get another job and quit, you don't wanna be working for ar$e holes like that. The corporate world is so unnatural and damaging to peoples health and minds, I would rather live on the side of the road than ever go back to it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvfy5Enz6-c

Wanderer78

pgj2015 wrote: »

The corporate world is so unnatural and damaging to peoples health and minds

it will eventually fail but unfortunately it will kill millions and possible billions in the process and possible even permanently destroy the planet, sadly. we truly have created a beast!

Mr_Muffin

Working in an office every day seems like torture. I have worked in an office environment before but i spent 70% of the time traveling so i was lucky.

Does anyone like working in an office?

Azalea

Mr_Muffin wrote: »

Working in an office every day seems like torture. I have worked in an office environment before but i spent 70% of the time traveling so i was lucky.

Does anyone like working in an office?

Depends on what your job is. I love my job, which is office-based. There's a lot of creativity involved and we get a lot of say.

But regarding the topic: if there is an actual pressing need for someone to stay on after their finishing time, fair enough - as much notice given as possible would be fairest, and obviously either over-time or time in lieu (that's how it works where I am) but feeling obliged to stay on when it's not actually necessary and just to "save face" and it being basically demanded by management... that's disgraceful and, I know it's easier said than done, but my opinion would be that people should give such workplaces a wide berth. The intimidating manner in which the director acted was appalling too.

BreadnBuddha

Mr.S wrote: »

You love a good managerial buzz word don't you

It's hard to avoid the language or jargon sometimes.

How about this to put it simply for anyone who doesn't get it.

I love an employee who knows they're replaceable, not necessarily entitled to higher pay, understands the need to make up for some of their inevitable timewasting by putting in a few extra hours here and there and above all, can accept that while I have to say things that they think should only be said by David Brent, I'm not actually a heartless and totally detached caricature of a man. If they're not a prick of an employee and don't treat me like a wanker, I'll do what I can to help them be happy and do well working for us. Good work and a bit of flexibility when we need it goes a long way in my books and we give as much as we can in return.

To the others, the message would simply be:

You expect too much and you don't earn or deserve what we give you anyway. We gave you a chance and you wasted it. You should leave now or I'll find a way to get rid of you. We're too clever to give you any opportunity to bring us to court so put your efforts into getting a new job instead. If you're not happy now it probably isn't going to change and I don't have time to listen to you whinging. There's work to be done, including what you are supposed to do and there are bills to pay so get out.

BreadnBuddha

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

It's hard to avoid the language or jargon sometimes.

How about this to put it simply for anyone who doesn't get it.

I'm just going to opt out of this thread because there really is nothing further to say I'm confident you'll get your karma eventually

Azalea

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

I love an employee who knows they're replaceable, not necessarily entitled to higher pay, understands the need to make up for some of their inevitable timewasting by putting in a few extra hours here and there

Why is time-wasting inevitable? I don't waste a second in my job, including not taking full breaks (that are allocated to me) or a full lunch, and working instead (not that others should feel obliged to do that, I just prefer to get stuck into things again when I'm finished eating or doing what I need to do on break - it's only a personal choice and not something I would ever make an issue of).

I have no problem with you saying an employee should realise they are replaceable and not necessarily entitled to more pay (once the latter doesn't apply to actually being expected to work for nothing, or once it genuinely means the company doesn't have the cash) - these are realities.

But the rest of what you say makes you come across as questionable in your attitudes as an employer - borderline exploitative frankly. To actually expect your employees to work for you at times for nothing, outside of the hours they are scheduled for, when they may have personal things planned, is stunning.

Log9

It also assumes you've no concern for loss of knowledge and skills.

Loosing staff and high churn carries significant costs in terms of never building up organisational knowledge. Not to mention high training costs and inefficiencies due to lack of experience and familiarity with systems.

Typically it's the kind of company with no staff loyalty, no ownership of problems and resultant bad customer care. Some high churn outsourced call centres are good examples of how this can go wrong.

Respect is mutual. If you treat people badly don't expect stellar performance, loyalty or any sense that they should go beyond the call of duty.

What you'll find is as the job market continues to rebound people will walk.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

Man of the thread = GFT

I've worked in a few different offices myself, from IT, Sales, call center and insurance.

It's a mix of pay per hour and annual salary.

It has always been a case of do not start until your supposed to. Finish on time. If you finish at 5pm, that's the time you hit the power off button on the computers. If you do more time either get paid money or get your time back from the following day etc.

The last office i was in i practiced the above and never had a problem. Same as many others. When it hit 5pm it was a race to the front door to go home. If they were stuck and asked us to stay back an extra hour it would either be an hours overtime or come in an hour late or finish an hour early the following day. No arguments.

This was always the way for me while on trial periods and permanent and i think it's just a company respecting it's employees valuable personal time.

I have never worked for a company where more was expected for nothing. And i think if you give your time for free the company will keep taking and won't stop. I wouldn't work for such place with a work attitude like that. It may as well be working in a sweatshop.

My advice op , look for a new job. And also stand your ground starting and finishing on time. In a land of rip off job bridge scams the people need to avoid falling into these traps.

As others have said, work for free and you will always be busy,

also keep note in pen and paper form of what higher ups are saying to you. Just for your sake if they should say something bad, threatening. You never know.

BreadnBuddha

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm just going to opt out of this thread because there really is nothing further to say I'm confident you'll get your karma eventually

There are two opposing views and rather than arguing saliently against any of the aspects which will prove to be rather pervasive in private sector SME's operating in a particularly tough commercial context, you've completely failed to grasp any of the realities I've placed in front of you.

It's all about a sense of entitlement as far as I can see. It's a privelige to be given the opportunity to prove your worth in a business context to a new employer, with a warning having been given that you're not looking so good right now, yet the focus for the overwhelming majority here as ever has been on employee rights, entitlements, the need for unionisation and a whole host of other nonsense which has little bearing on the unpleasant reality that awaits the OP.

3 weeks in, he's not impressing a director. There's reason for this and many distract the OP instead of laying it out, that a failure to ammend that directors perception will not lead to a positive outcome in the sense that the trial is unlikely to lead to full employment.

Understand the business context for the directors comments and you can make an intelligent decision on how to respond. Accept the typical employees shortsighted reaction and write off the opportunity with near certainty.

Jobs must be ten a penny for 'sales and marketing' positions with fixed working hours.

I doubt it. Just wait until the new year.

Eugene Norman

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

There are two opposing views and rather than arguing saliently against any of the aspects which will prove to be rather pervasive in private sector SME's operating in a particularly tough commercial context, you've completely failed to grasp any of the realities I've placed in front of you.

It's all about a sense of entitlement as far as I can see. It's a privelige to be given the opportunity to prove your worth in a business context to a new employer, with a warning having been given that you're not looking so good right now, yet the focus for the overwhelming majority here as ever has been on employee rights, entitlements, the need for unionisation and a whole host of other nonsense which has little bearing on the unpleasant reality that awaits the OP.

3 weeks in, he's not impressing a director. There's reason for this and many distract the OP instead of laying it out, that a failure to ammend that directors perception will not lead to a positive outcome in the sense that the trial is unlikely to lead to full employment.

Understand the business context for the directors comments and you can make an intelligent decision on how to respond. Accept the typical employees shortsighted reaction and write off the opportunity with near certainty.

Jobs must be ten a penny for 'sales and marketing' positions with fixed working hours.

I doubt it. Just wait until the new year.

Ack that's all rubbish. Work for free and the nice director might treat you nicely. Of course he would. And if you popped around to his house every Saturday to mow the lawn for free he might even make you a cup of tea. Or you could get a proper job.

Also these efforts are rarely rewarded. Nor should they be because working late - unless meetings are running late or the entire company has to on certain busy periods - is an example of inefficiency.

Where you work sounds like a horrendous cult. You have all the trappings of a kool aid drinker.

Eugene Norman

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

Hardly.

Take it in context of the entire post.

You might not like the message but it's a fact. Employees who have just started a new job, who are taking time and being paid to learn the ropes while taking up coworkers and managers time in the process and at the same time failing recognise and react to the reality that they are NOT YET valued personnel are entitled to no more than to be shown the door.

Don't agree? Fine. We don't have to agree, but flippant remarks don't change the facts.

You have no idea what the experience level of the op is.

Azalea

As if any manager would respect a pushover.

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

the big bad bullying boss who wants their pound if flesh.

That does indeed describe what you advocate.

It's all about a sense of entitlement as far as I can see.

Being critical of a manager expecting staff to work at times for no pay is not remotely about a sense of entitlement. Well it is if it's about the manager being the one with the sense of entitlement.

Bigus

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

I know the guy we just gave a payrise as he's separated and wants to set up home for shared custody of his son and daughter,



Perspective's a bitch.

Would this guys separation have anything to do with his work ethic ?

Perhaps that Bitch didn't appreciate all the money he earned and provided for her working in 90 hours a week , spending no quality time at home , or maybe not, maybe he's just unlucky in love but has a fantastic job , good for him and the company.

ush

Well run operations don't require martyrs staying late for nothing.

Lux23

Where I work, unless we are incredibly busy and even when we are our boss comes out about 5.15 or so and asks why we haven't gone home if we are still there. I think this is fair and how it should be. I'm mature enough to know when I need to put in extra time and will start early, finish late if needs be, but I don't believe in appearances. If you can do your job in the mandated hours than you can't do your job.

Banjaxed82

Either you're working for your own dream or working for someone else's. I'll be arsed if I'm going to work for free to sustain someone else's dream.

Halloween Jack

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

The owners, who are the shareholders, run the business day to day.

They appoint a board of directors, responsible for the high level strategic management of the business, its financial performance as an entity and so forth.

If you didn't realise that already, I'd be surprised.

Conditions are what they are. Which is, very good.

What may be tough is simply accepting that the real priority of business is making a profit for continued operation enabling a higher return for the shareholders, versus what employees think should be held as most important.

That's likely to be the thing that's getting stuck in your throat.

If the owners take care of the day to day stuff and the board are looking after high level strategy it seems odd to me that at your monthly meetings with the board they are scrutinising individual staff members performance metrics...

armabelle

same thing happened to me a while ago... I never worked outside work hours unless I got paid for it. After my probation they spoke to me about it in a "hint hint" kind of way but I never budged and resigned a month later. I would not take kindly to someone speaking to me that as directly as they spoke to you. If someone told me that I would say that I prefer to live a normal healthy lifestyle and that if a company would deny me of that by telling me that working excessive hours and neglecting my private life it would be very inappropriate. We are human beings and working 40 hours a week is already a lot if we are to remain cheery

ThisRegard

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

I have never worked for a company where more was expected for nothing. And i think if you give your time for free the company will keep taking and won't stop.

And nobody has suggested that this should be the case either. There are those however suggesting that one clocking off time comes, you're out of there, regardless.

Jim2007

ThisRegard wrote: »

Nothing to do with America, it's standard practice. It's a very union idea that you don't work one second outside of your contracted time without recompense.

It most certainly is an American attitude. After spending 27 years working for various companies in mainland Europe, I can say that most Europeans insist on a good work life balance and have absolutely no problem walking out the door when the clock hits five. As a German to do do something at 16:50 and you'll be told something along the lines: "Certainly I will deal with it tomorrow".

ThisRegard

Why do you think this "American" practice does not also result in a good work/life balance? Did you not read the extremely well balanced example I gave? Is everyone assuming that under this "American" practice you have to work an additional two hours every day? (Someone mentioned an additional 10 hours a week under this regime).

And to counteract your anecdote with one of mine, I've occasionally worked with German teams both based out of Germany and onsite in Ireland. If something important or urgent comes up, they'll deal with it there and then.

You're not the only person to work in Europe or with European based teams, everyone can give anecdotes to counteract someone else's. That's the great thing about them.

Kettleson

If you are good at the job during normal work hours they should keep you on. They'd be fools not to.

If you are crap and work till midnight, they won't keep you on. But it's not a great sign to be clock watching on probation period or whatever. Especially if others are giving you a bit of their time and possibly staying late as a result.

Just be conscious of giving a fair days work for a fair days pay. Should see you right in the end.

cowboyBuilder

People seem to think working long is working hard, such bs, I have worked in places where if you left at 6.00 the bosses would say "Leaving allready ?? "

After working a good day from 9.00 - 18.00 (1hr lunch) !!

I'm in Spain, it's quite typical for people to stay till 7, or 8 ... but then again, they arrive at 9.45 ... then they go to breakfast at 10, or 10.30 for 45 minutes ..

Lunch is 1.5 - 2 hours !!

But because they leave at 8 they look like better workers


PERO BUENO!!!!

CruelCoin

ThisRegard wrote: »

And to counteract your anecdote with one of mine, I've occasionally worked with German teams both based out of Germany and onsite in Ireland. If something important or urgent comes up, they'll deal with it there and then.

This is something i came across in both Holland and New Zealand.

Say you're working on a task which has a start-up time of an hour, has 30 minutes left to run, but its 5pm now.

In Holland/New Zealand the staff will stay and finish the 30 minutes left rather than stop there and then and waste an hour in the morning to do 30 minutes of production!

In Ireland however, all i have ever seen is "5pm lads, tools down, see ya, byeee" with no regard for the waste in time.

There seems to be basic lack of regard here for give and take.

BizzyC

I'd say it depends on how much work there is to do.

If you can get all of your work done between 8-4.30, then I'd question why others need to work extra hours to get the same amount done. Staying late for appearances is counter-productive, you make yourself look less capable in my book.

Alternatively if there's stuff to do and you're out the door at 4.30 on the dot every night, I'd question your commitment to the job.

DeltaWhite

Some comments on here make me glad I have the current boss that I have...

In my previous job (Management were the most tight and spiteful people I've ever met) they had a smart arse comment to me because I left at 5pm everyday. However, I used to come in to work a half hour early every SINGLE DAY for 6 years... They didn't give a sh!t about that though did they? Nope. Never paid me for it either, never gave me time in lieu either.

I ignored their comments, I knew they wouldn't sack me over it. My boss mentioned it to me one day, and I told her that if I was staying late everyday, then obviously I am not good at time management and anyone who does stay everyday for hours on end, either has too much workload or else they aren't doing their job how they are supposed to. Shut her up pretty quick! I always had my work done, I was an excellent worker there, even though I was treated like sh!t for years. It's an employers world out there since the recession!

LegacyUser

There is more to life than earning money, sure you need money to get along. At the end of the day you cant take it with you.

Life is about living spending time with friends family, if you get that buzz from working loads of hours then great, but just ask yourself, if I died would your work colleagues be upset, if you were going through a rough time would they support you giving up their time and emotional support.

If the answer is no, then do you really want to spend extra time from your life, to just keep someone else happy, who only sees you as a means to an end.

Most office jobs are pointless and hopefully will be automated away soon enough, don't be part of a system that you don't want to be, find the best way for you to get money that you need to get along. Sitting in a cube trying to be creative between set hours is the most daft system ever thought up.

TLDR; Find a place with a culture that suits you, don't change yourself to suit someone else's agenda.

Jim2007

ThisRegard wrote: »

Why do you think this "American" practice does not also result in a good work/life balance? Did you not read the extremely well balanced example I gave?

Yes, I too have heard of good work/life balance examples from the US, but they are few and far between and usually come from industries where it is difficult to attract and retain staff rather than the run of the mill jobs... far more common are situations where staff get no holidays in their first year, sick days are take out of holidays, staff don't take all their holiday entitlement and work long hours because they are afraid of being terminated....

Nody

//MOD

Only a reminder to keep things civil people; it's a very heated topic and there's a good discussion going on (even if both sides disagree with each other) and I'd hate to have to lock the thread.

//MOD