Leaving work on time frowned upon. Mod warning post 1

hytrogen

Does a player in any team sport say "sod it I'm done playing" and walk off the pitch with 5minutes to go when they're losing but could potentially win or draw and run into extra time and then win? Obviously not because they're dedicated to their team as a professional should to the job too.

When you were studying in uni or college or wherever, when you had an assignment due did you down your pen with a paragraph to go on your assignment or final exam and say sod it? No, you got the work done by putting in the extra time.

A job isn't for life, a career is

Sunflower 27

No way would I accept this. Employer is taking liberties. You are paid to work, not to be a slave at their beck and call. I'd be looking elsewhere pronto. This sort of attitude that you should be indebted to them is pathetic. You work your hours, that is enough. If they want you to work more, let them cough up and lay for it. The cheek of them!!

ush

hytrogen wrote: »

Does a player in any team sport say "sod it I'm done playing" and walk off the pitch with 5minutes to go when they're losing but could potentially win or draw and run into extra time and then win? Obviously not because they're dedicated to their team as a professional should to the job too.

Silly analogy. Ref blows whistle and the game is over. There is no "five minutes to go" in the original post.

hytrogen wrote: »

When you were studying in uni or college or wherever, when you had an assignment due did you down your pen with a paragraph to go on your assignment or final exam and say sod it? No, you got the work done by putting in the extra time.

A job isn't for life, a career is

Again, the test had a set amount of time and the assignment had a defined deadline.

allandanyways

One of the most interesting threads here in a while.

My two cents... I'm only in my mid-twenties, started working in 2010 in the middle of the recession.

I have worked in various jobs, mostly travel/admin, for the last 6 years, and at the worst point, I was working 65hrs/week including working from home at weekends and getting paid €21k pa with no overtime, no bonus and 20 days holidays that I ended up taking 4 of and was not allowed carry them over. The job I'm in now isn't much better so I'm currently in the process of overhauling my career path and upskilling to something actually worthwhile that I enjoy.

I've no problem putting in extra hours where they're compensated. I do have a problem continuously putting in extra hours and bosses thinking that "Thank You" is sufficient. It's nice, but it's not compensating me for not getting home until 9/10pm when I should have finished at 17:30, and have to be up again at 7am to be in for 8am even though I don't start until 09:30.

The opinion that we have to work at menial jobs for next to nothing and work hours and hours of free overtime to "get your foot on the ladder" is a convoluted capitalist concept.

It's dangling the prize in front of the eager new employee and saying "Work hard enough and this nice office and 10-4 workday could be yours" with a disclaimer that reads "May cause nervous breakdown. May include working overtime and never getting paid for it. You have to feel guilty every time you take a day off or it's not worth taking. We own you because we pay your wages. Don't forget, you're here forever and when you leave, all problems will be blamed on you."

This quote summarises what I'm trying to say - can't make it smaller for some reason - help!

hytrogen

ush wrote: »

Silly analogy. Ref blows whistle and the game is over. There is no "five minutes to go" in the original post.




Again, the test had a set amount of time and the assignment had a defined deadline.

Support your arguement with valid references.
If OP is already in the car at 4.30 when they clock off (as mentioned in a later post) then clearly they're slacking off and not impressing bossman

ush

Its a figure of speech. I don't think its intended to be read literally.

Permabear

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BreadnBuddha

Permabear wrote: »

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Or that a Jack should be replaced with a Jane, all other things being equal.

road_high

C4Kid wrote: »

Currently in a job on a trial basis for the last 3 weeks. It's a small organisation with about 15-20 people.

Since starting I work the full 8-4:30 day and I always leave on time along with a few others however some people always stay on. This morning one of the directors came out to me while sitting in my car before work and said people who do the 8-4:30 don't last long around here.

I was a little taken aback but I'm just wondering is this common place, should I just suck it up or as its only a trial keep applying for other jobs.I can't stand being looked down on just for leaving on time at this stage I'd rather find a job where 4:30 means 4:30 the day is long enough as it is.

Other jobs similar to this which I have worked in finished on time without issue, this is the first time I've had this said to me !!

Thanks !

//MOD

Only a reminder to keep things civil people; it's a very heated topic and there's a good discussion going on (even if both sides disagree with each other) and I'd hate to have to lock the thread.

//MOD

No...people don't last long in a place like this because of stupid attitudes like his. Just because you're sitting in an office for an extra while does not mean you're doing anything. If anything, it could mean a person is dawdling during the official work hours and not getting it all done....

allandanyways

Permabear wrote: »

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This.

The last place I worked, the MD would use the girls (including myself) who worked a minimum of 10hrs overtime per week as a shining example of brilliance.

Anyone who left on time was a waste of space and in her mind, not doing their job to the best standard possible.

I'm now finding as I've been working in different companies that the MD's and Managers who expect that staff work a certain amount of overtime each week are the Managers who aren't very good at their jobs themselves. If a company/department is run effectively and efficiently, nobody should be working late unless exceptional circumstances arise.

Additionally, despite the above line being iterated in thousands of contracts each year, "exceptional circumstances" is not a prolonged period of time, be it a week, a month or a quarter. It's the one day the systems went down all afternoon, it's the day all of the flights to London are delayed, it's the day the order system scrambled the orders. If you know you have a busy season, hire more staff and stop taking advantage of the staff you already have just because you pay their wages.

In most areas of work (retail, consumer goods, marketing, admin, travel etc), we are not saving the world. A job is a job. Why we accept "company culture" and "climbing the ladder" as an excuse for free labour is beyond me.

draiochtanois

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zoobizoo

Depends on the job and where you are in your career and what way you are being paid.

If you're being paid by the hour then you don't work more than your hours unless you are told that you will be paid for those hours.

Certain industries demand it - legal and financial... and advertising and depending on the company. I've worked full weekends on pitches and never got paid anything extra. My contract said that I might have to work extra hours. That was expected - happened once every so often. There were agencies I worked for where there was a culture of staying late because the boss did.

There are so many variables that there is not a black and white answer.

Where I am now, the boss says, if you're not busy, shoot off early. I have friends in IT who arrive in at 9.20 and leave at 4.50 to avoid the traffic. They get their work done and are paid handsomely for it.

The culture of staying late for the sake of staying late is ridiculous, but sometimes you have to do it.

BreadnBuddha

draiochtanois wrote: »

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Let's leave the grammar and punctuation aside.

You understand that the OP is only in the door 3 weeks, is there on a trial basis, acknowledges that it's a busy time of year but gets the hump when it's pointed out that he's not making a great impression by sitting in his car waiting for clocking in time or walking out the door at 4:30, don't you?

The director/manager/owner/supervisor is not at all out of line should they notify the new guy that he's not making a good impression. They are the people who have seniority in the company. Like it or not, the dog wags the tail, not the other way around.

These types of reactions and acting like a victim just makes the situation worse. Knuckle down and get on with it until you actually have a leg to stand on, or leave. Plenty of other people will be happy to take the job. It's the way of the world.

Zillah

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

It's all about a sense of entitlement as far as I can see. It's a privelige to be given the opportunity to prove your worth in a business context to a new employer

Every now and then I have to remind myself that the people alive today are not in any way fundamentally different to the people who established feudalism, serfdom, and slavery. They justified it, felt entitled to it, fought to keep it.

We seem to have an enduring capacity to convince ourselves that other people should be reduced to serving us, and feeling grateful that we even allowed them that.

Permabear

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Azalea

CruelCoin wrote: »

This is something i came across in both Holland and New Zealand.

Say you're working on a task which has a start-up time of an hour, has 30 minutes left to run, but its 5pm now.

In Holland/New Zealand the staff will stay and finish the 30 minutes left rather than stop there and then and waste an hour in the morning to do 30 minutes of production!

That's fair enough - it's only half an hour, and once you get the time back it's a non issue... once you don't have an appointment at 5.30, or need to pick up your children. It's not unreasonable for some people to require notice.

Someone on this thread is advocating that people do "a few hours here and there" for NOTHING - they claim the staff's "inevitable" time-wasting is compensation enough.

Your example is not at all the same thing as the latter.

BreadnBuddha

Azalea wrote: »

That's fair enough - it's only half an hour, and once you get the time back it's a non issue... once you don't have an appointment at 5.30, or need to pick up your children. It's not unreasonable for some people to require notice.

Someone on this thread is advocating that people do "a few hours here and there" for NOTHING - they claim the staff's "inevitable" time-wasting is compensation enough.

Your example is not at all the same thing as the latter.

I'm advocating that people should be prepared to accept that sometimes you need to live up to certain expectations or be prepared to find an employer that allows you to leave on the button, even of there's work to be done.

As a new employee you don't get to redefine business objectives and the corresponding expectations from staff. You may have some constructive input to offer, even in the short term, but nobody wants to hear what you think should be changed until you prove you can work just as well as everyone else.

When you're not there long enough to show sales results, only work practice behaviours and attitude give an indication that you're really a good fit.

Too many new hires in all walks of life think they know better than the people who have successfully done the job for many years already. Let's face facts though. A low paid salesman with no sales worth talking about doesn't have much of a right to criticise his new employers. Sales is a tough gig. If you're finding things to complain about just three weeks in, chances are you just aren't cut out for the job.

ush

Permabear wrote: »

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You're wrong.

Permabear wrote: »

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Charlie Marx?

No, its a badly run organisation that disrespects it staff. Simple as that.

Permabear wrote: »

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The current culture does not reward those who work the longest hours. Never has done, never will.

ush

Zillah wrote: »

Every now and then I have to remind myself that the people alive today are not in any way fundamentally different to the people who established feudalism, serfdom, and slavery. They justified it, felt entitled to it, fought to keep it.

We seem to have an enduring capacity to convince ourselves that other people should be reduced to serving us, and feeling grateful that we even allowed them that.

Very wise words.

dslamjack

Chris. wrote: »

I would go as far as to say 90% of managers in this country are damaging to their particular business. Do as I say not as I do sort of people. Wrong type of people to be hired into managerial positions. They have no idea how be a leader.

Yes indeed, the worst are the poacher turned gamekeeper type ,that did't know how to spell work ,let alone do any,but managed to get promotion on the q tee or from brown nosing.
They suddenly become experts on every thing,one in our place was called the ghost, for obvious reasons, then hounded people on the floor, like he was Mr Super efficent,every job has one at least, and more the higher up ya go.
Most managers are Saps, lets face it,e mail, cc merchants , copy n paste clones going I've got a stupid title, I get a tenner more a week than you.
At least years ago they got a door with their name on it, now they don't even get a partition at there desk, they get to share a hotdesk with 10 other staff.

GreeBo

A lot of very naive people on here.

No one who is successful works to a clock.

Perhaps your definition of successful differs from mine, but no one lasts in a position of power earning good money if they are in and out according to the times specified on their contract.

No one is saying that minimum wage, hourly workers should work for free, but if you have a grown ups job, its par for the course.
While you are busy watching the clock, the senior staff are busy passing you over for promotions.

Experience_day

My contract is for 37 hours. I work 60+ hours for the same pay.

Not about the short term...

Permabear

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1eg0a3xv7b82of

Theres a line in a US TV show I saw many years ago.
A homeless man tells another man he used to have everything big job, nice house, etc etc.
The other man says to the homeless man what happened and the homeless man responds I took a holiday.

Is this the next step in this lunacy of the race to the bottom.

Aquals

GreeBo wrote: »

A lot of very naive people on here.

No one who is successful works to a clock.

Depends on what you mean by "successful."

From my perspective, the most successful people in life are the ones who can leave their job at a fixed time and enjoy a the most important things in life: family, friends, free time....

The "naive people" could be on either side of this discussion! :rolleyes:

Martin567

GreeBo wrote: »

A lot of very naive people on here.

No one who is successful works to a clock.

Perhaps your definition of successful differs from mine, but no one lasts in a position of power earning good money if they are in and out according to the times specified on their contract.

No one is saying that minimum wage, hourly workers should work for free, but if you have a grown ups job, its par for the course.
While you are busy watching the clock, the senior staff are busy passing you over for promotions.

Not everyone has the same priorities in life. It really does come down to the simple "live to work/work to live" question.

If people want to put in really long hours in order to achieve various promotions, that's their decision. However, they shouldn't criticise those people who have no desire to do the same. There are many people who want to work hard during normal hours, doing something they like, but then walk out the door at a reasonable hour and forget about work.

It is unfair to describe such people as wasters as some have. It is more likely that, through experience, they have figured out what is most important for them and work/career is not Number 1. Purely speaking for myself, I am very happy to forego quite a lot of money in order to not be subject to someone else's deadlines and targets.

"Success" can be a subjective concept. Being in a position of power and earning "good(?) money" wouldn't be near the top of my list. Does that mean I'm not a grown up? I'm good at what I do and I work hard but the days of worrying about impressing somebody else by being seen to put in extra long hours are thankfully well behind me.

Martin567

Experience_day wrote: »

My contract is for 37 hours. I work 60+ hours for the same pay.

Not about the short term...

Good for you.

But how deeply have you thought about the long term? Assume all those extra unpaid hours you're doing pay off and you make it to the top & make the big money, etc. What do you think will be your chances of reducing your hours at that point? Very unlikely I'd guess.

So you will be left doing the 60+ hours just for much greater pay. That's fine so long as you know how it will be and that is what you really want. Just be aware that for many people those extra hours, even with the greater pay, are not a sacrifice they would be willing to make.

ush

GreeBo wrote: »

A lot of very naive people on here.

No one who is successful works to a clock.

Perhaps your definition of successful differs from mine, but no one lasts in a position of power earning good money if they are in and out according to the times specified on their contract.

If they're in a position of real power, there won't be any "times specified on their contract".

MPFGLB

GreeBo wrote: »

A lot of very naive people on here.

No one who is successful works to a clock.

Perhaps your definition of successful differs from mine, but no one lasts in a position of power earning good money if they are in and out according to the times specified on their contract.

No one is saying that minimum wage, hourly workers should work for free, but if you have a grown ups job, its par for the course.
While you are busy watching the clock, the senior staff are busy passing you over for promotions.

I agree...working to the clock is fine if your job lends to that ... examples like assembly line or manufacturing roles or other reactive roles with set boundaries..including several admin , receptionist roles,etc

But you would hardly expect a surgeon in the middle of an operation to walk out at 5.30pm because he has fulfilled his hours or a fireman to walk away in the middle of a fire if he has completed his hours for the day. What is called for in many roles is flexibility

It also depends on what you want from life and what you want to achieve in your career. I do believe that during any probation period you need to go above and beyond to secure the job especially if you are learning and not yet fully proficient (as the OP seems to be).Once you settle into the role , about 6 months in then you should be able to complete your work in the allotted time and if not then you can at least be in a position to negotiate with your employer

As said previously not all productivity is not based on long hours.

Also there is the issue of who you work for ...if its non profit or a government role or even a large corporation then there are usually set working hours that staff and employers adhere to ..

However if its a small company (though sometimes large) where the company is fighting for business and turnover is limited then rigidly sticking to set hours is not always supported or possible.

You can decide for yourself which company and role suits you and find a job accordingly. It is a good idea at the interview to ascertain the culture of the company and be clear about what is expected of you including the policy on overtime...

But there is a very serious issue here that some of the people abusing BreadnBuddha are ignoring
And this is it … in today’s capitalist global markets where the Chinese & Indians, Koreans, etc are prepared to go above and beyond and work long hours for less pay then if you are in competition for the same markets then your company and workforce need to very flexible otherwise you can go home. This is one of the main issues of capitalism ..its all about profit margins …The same capitalism that has allowed western people to buy cheap TVs, trainers, microwave ovens,etc made by people in sweat shops in Asia …Its also makes for a very difficult environment for all manufacturing and associated industry in the west. It is also why China and India’s wealth is growing and west is falling from a place of dominance. And now these emerging economies are beginning ot perform better in other non manufacturing industries. Its is why the west has to borrow to meet government budgets. Its may be fine to say I am going home at 4.30pm on the dot but how long will you have a job if someone in India can do it better for a cheaper wage… And its all well and good to say I don’t want to live like that but look at the alternatives ? Unemployment? More expensive Irish goods ? I am sure no manager in China is bothered about your need to be in the parking lot at 4.30pm

Zillah

GreeBo wrote: »

A lot of very naive people on here.

No one who is successful works to a clock.

Perhaps your definition of successful differs from mine, but no one lasts in a position of power earning good money if they are in and out according to the times specified on their contract.

No one is saying that minimum wage, hourly workers should work for free, but if you have a grown ups job, its par for the course.
While you are busy watching the clock, the senior staff are busy passing you over for promotions.

Maybe we're not all sociopaths obsessed with having power and money?

"I wish...I had spent...more time...in the office..." said no one on their death bed ever.