Pep on the way to England

bucketybuck

Pro. F wrote: »

It's true that German football made a conscious move to developing more technically gifted players about a decade ago (I've read about it often enough, but can't remember when exactly it's supposed to have started). But the players are only half the story when it comes to style of football.

The reports of Germany putting a massive emphasis on development of their players really started surfacing around the time of the England 5-1 thrashing in 2001, I remember hearing about the sea change they felt was needed to challenge for trophies in the future.

Then the first shoots of their progress were seen in 2006 under Klinsmann, where many had felt before the tournament that it was too soon for them as a team and so the subsequent semi-final place was seen as a good result.

The final of Euro 2008 (before Guardiola) 3rd place in 2010, the progress in German football has been there for a long time and it had feck all to do with Guardiola.

rob316

Totally overrated manager IMO.

He's good but he would struggle to build a team without the pick of the worlds best. At Barca he had probably the best player to ever play the game coupled without some of the best of this generation. He inherited a top class squad and European champions at Bayern with again the best of the German players on offer who are the current world champions.

I would argue Bayern were better before he took over and have been turned over in Europe in the latter stages a couple of times. Heynckes had them playing blistering counter attacking football which suited them more.

Good manager but not a top top ala Ancelotti/Mourinho

eagle eye

rob316 wrote: »

Totally overrated manager IMO.

He's good but he would struggle to build a team without the pick of the worlds best. At Barca he had probably the best player to ever play the game coupled without some of the best of this generation. He inherited a top class squad and European champions at Bayern with again the best of the German players on offer who are the current world champions.

I would argue Bayern were better before he took over and have been turned over in Europe in the latter stages a couple of times. Heynckes had them playing blistering counter attacking football which suited them more.

Good manager but not a top top ala Ancelotti/Mourinho

The best football I've ever seen played was Guardiola's Barcelona. They were as dominant as you are going to get in modern day football. It doesn't matter what players he had, he managed to get them all to gel together and play incredible football. It made him a legendary manager at a young age. He has went to Bayern and they've broken a ton of records under him. They haven't won the Champion's league under him but have been touted by many to win it in each of the seasons he has been there both before and during the competition.

He is without doubt one of the greatest managers of all time imo and probably the best manager in the world at the current time.

Shanotheslayer

rob316 wrote: »

Good manager but not a top top ala Ancelotti/Mourinho

Interesting. How come you would rate them higher?

Andersonisgod

rob316 wrote: »

Totally overrated manager IMO.

He's good but he would struggle to build a team without the pick of the worlds best. At Barca he had probably the best player to ever play the game coupled without some of the best of this generation. He inherited a top class squad and European champions at Bayern with again the best of the German players on offer who are the current world champions.

I would argue Bayern were better before he took over and have been turned over in Europe in the latter stages a couple of times. Heynckes had them playing blistering counter attacking football which suited them more.

Good manager but not a top top ala Ancelotti/Mourinho

I literally spat red bull all over the computer screen in front of me, if I am asked by the cleaning staff why the screen is dripping in Red Bull I am going to direct them to this comment and that should clear up the mess.

The_Kew_Tour

Seriously...

Andersonisgod

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Seriously...

All too seriously, I've had to bust out the wet wipes.

astonaidan

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I wasn't really sure what other thread to put this on and it's probably a big enough story to warrant it's own thread. If the mods want to put it somewhere else then my apologies. Anyway....here we go!

Pep is leaving Bayern Munich. He will announce the decision to the media next week but Kicker have gotten there ahead of him, and other reputable journalists seem to think this is a lock. Lots of speculation as to why he is leaving, some think the infrastructure of the club upsets Pep, however it's far more likely that he thinks it is time for the next project, he makes no secret that he believes 3-4 years at one club is an eternity and ends up hindering the club, the players and the coach if you stick around too long.

At Bayern Munich Pep had crafted an identity to give to the club, he had to take over after Bayern's treble, keep motivations high and innovate. His impact on Bayern, the German national team and German football as a whole is undoubted. His innovations at Bayern have been remarkable, every game has been a lesson taught by football's grandmaster. Pep now sets his sights to England.

The question is, will it to Man Utd, Man City, or Chelsea that get, probably, the best manager of his generation. All of these clubs would love to have him and the fight truly begins now. My money is on City, the infrastructure at that club has practically been built with Pep in mind, the squad is the most Pep-like, Begiristain and Soriano are already at the club, it seems like a match made in heaven. That is bad news for English football, since becoming one of the wealthiest clubs in Europe they've threatened to become the line superpower in the English game, with the infrastructure now in place, with the recent backing from the Chinese consortium, dominance is within their reach, all they need do is reach out and grab it. By getting Pep they would be doing exactly that.

Uh he took over a treble winnng team, and before that had a Barcelona team with some of the best players in the world, his impact on the german national team is non existent. How much of his german players would you say improved on his arrival, this is nonsense. I cant actually think of one signing that he brought in that was German for the first team.
All sounds like fan boy nonsense your whole comment

Andersonisgod

astonaidan wrote: »

Uh he took over a treble winnng team, and before that had a Barcelona team with some of the best players in the world, his impact on the german national team is non existent. How much of his german players would you say improved on his arrival, this is nonsense. I cant actually think of one signing that he brought in that was German for the first team.
All sounds like fan boy nonsense your whole comment

I've explained already why you are wrong, I've got references, I've got sources, I've followed his career from start to current day. I follow Spanish football closer than I'd say the majority of posters on this board and some German football too (though I'm by no means an expert). When I offer an opinion on these things it carries more weight than somebody whose seen a handful of Pep's games and whose researched nothing about him and knows nothing of his motivations, methods or challenges faced and who says he took over a Barcelona team "with some of the best players in the world" unaware that the players they are actually referring to were not key players pre Pep.

rob316

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I literally spat red bull all over the computer screen in front of me, if I am asked by the cleaning staff why the screen is dripping in Red Bull I am going to direct them to this comment and that should clear up the mess.

Ha I knew you wouldn't like that comment. It might seem over the top but my over riding belief is he has been incredibly lucky to inherit the groups of players he has at barca and bayern.
You will tell me all about the philosophy he instilled I'm sure though.

astonaidan

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I've explained already why you are wrong, I've got references, I've got sources, I've followed his career from start to current day. I follow Spanish football closer than I'd say the majority of posters on this board and some German football too (though I'm by no means an expert). When I offer an opinion on these things it carries more weight than somebody whose seen a handful of Pep's games and whose researched nothing about him and knows nothing of his motivations, methods or challenges faced and who says he took over a Barcelona team "with some of the best players in the world" unaware that the players they are actually referring to were not key players pre Pep.

So youve followed him at Barcelona and Bayern, thats not exactly that long, Ive been following German football for long enough to know that him succeeding in the bundesliga is not a achievement. Bayern cherry pick players from the league, this is known. Name one player that has come through with Bayern in his time.
All the players from Bayern were stars before his arrival.
He signed players like Bentia, Lewa, Coman and Costa for like 30million each.
Xavi was a key player when he took over Barca for like 7 seasons before Pep
Messi was for 4 seasons pre Pep
Iniesta 4 seasons pre pep

He has shown he cant manager superstars like Zlatan, Ronaldinho

So the players I can think off that He brought through are Busquets and Valdes

Pique was signed of the back of a good season at Zaragoza
Dani Alves was a star for Sevilla
Samuel Eto'o a star for Mallorca.

So the two teams he spent big money for ready made players and had a solid set of players in place.

You have a ridiculous notion of the man, in your head have made him into a god

Where Id like him to go, is Milan a team with history solid set of young players. Get them to the top would show everyone hes a top manager.

Shanotheslayer

astonaidan wrote: »

So youve followed him at Barcelona and Bayern, thats not exactly that long, Ive been following German football for long enough to know that him succeeding in the bundesliga is not a achievement. Bayern cherry pick players from the league, this is known. Name one player that has come through with Bayern in his time.
All the players from Bayern were stars before his arrival.
He signed players like Bentia, Lewa, Coman and Costa for like 30million each.
Xavi was a key player when he took over Barca for like 7 seasons before Pep
Messi was for 4 seasons pre Pep
Iniesta 4 seasons pre pep

He has shown he cant manager superstars like Zlatan, Ronaldinho

So the players I can think off that He brought through are Busquets and Valdes

Pique was signed of the back of a good season at Zaragoza
Dani Alves was a star for Sevilla
Samuel Eto'o a star for Mallorca.

So the two teams he spent big money for ready made players and had a solid set of players in place.

You have a ridiculous notion of the man, in your head have made him into a god

Where Id like him to go, is Milan a team with history solid set of young players. Get them to the top would show everyone hes a top manager.

Talk about Cherry Picking your argument :pac:

Can't wait for AIG's response.

Andersonisgod

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

Talk about Cherry Picking your argument :pac:

Can't wait for AIG's response.

I'm on my mobile phone, I have been all day, and my 4G data is being eaten into because of this thread and the Mourinho sacking. I am going to power through that comment like a locomotive, I will slash through the weeds of his untruths and his bushes of myths until you can all see the light at the end of the maze of these fallacies which he has nurtured and grown. It will be long, it will be unpleasant at times. For now I'll bite my lip but later I'll be back with my scythe.

SlickRic

I'm a huge fan of Pep, and his Barcelona team is quite probably the greatest of all time; but let me get this straight...

Unless he has perfect resources available, he couldn't win the league? To the point where he 'would do very well to win it with City'?

Fúck off with that absolute bollocks.

So let's stack everything in his favour, see if he wins, then if he does he's 'the greatest eva' and if he doesn't win 'well, it's not his fault'?

Christ Almighty, he's allowed get away with shít that nobody else is allowed to.

If he goes to City, he must win the League. Full stop. No excuses.

My head hurts with some of the deifying nonsense that gets thrown at him. If he fails to win the Champions League with quite possibly the best squad of players I've ever seen, then he's failed.

I mean, I heard Miguel Delaney talking on Off the Ball last night, and even he seemed to excuse Pep for last season's failure in the Champions League because he didn't have Robben and Ribery. Apparently he's equipped to win it now because he also has Douglas Costa and a bunch of other world class back up.

Who else gets to use these kinds of excuses?

It seems he's allowed have the best players, and even if he doesn't win, he can have excuses. It's amazing how far up his arse so many people seem to be; especially in the media.

He doesn't need it. If he fails, tell it like it is. Don't use an excuse of 'but...but...but...IDENTITY!'

astonaidan

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I'm on my mobile phone, I have been all day, and my 4G data is being eaten into because of this thread and the Mourinho sacking. I am going to power through that comment like a locomotive, I will slash through the weeds of his untruths and his bushes of myths until you can all see the light at the end of the maze of these fallacies which he has nurtured and grown. It will be long, it will be unpleasant at times. For now I'll bite my lip but later I'll be back with my scythe.

Honestly dude, your knowledge of football is considered laughable. Their is no flaws in anything Ive said so far, where your harping on about how he was a factor in Germany winning the world cup and how he has left a life long impact on Bundesliga, for me and most people who actually watch football, Klopp had a far bigger impact on German football team and Bundesliga in recent times than any other manager excluding Loew.
Honestly Im going to just go back to ignoring your baseless comments, enjoy you fan boy idiocy

Paully D

I hope not. The bloke bores me to tears.

deaddonkey15

Guardiola is very overrated. Fortunate to inherit the strongest teams in Germany and Spain. The fact that his Bayern team were humiliated by both Real Madrid and Barcelona in the Champions League speaks volumes. He should know more about those two sides than practically anyone else in the world and yet his Bayern sides, who were bursting with talent, still looked clueless. Dortmund's utter capitulation last season worked out nicely for him too.

rob316

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Guardiola is very overrated. Fortunate to inherit the strongest teams in Germany and Spain. The fact that his Bayern team were humiliated by both Real Madrid and Barcelona in the Champions League speaks volumes. He should know more about those two sides than practically anyone else in the world and yet his Bayern sides, who were bursting with talent, still looked clueless. Dortmund's utter capitulation last season worked out nicely for him too.

Nonsense.

I will cut through your comment with great vengeance and fury. I will peel back the bark on that tree of lies and heresy you so speak from and expose you for the heathen that you are.

As soon as I finish my can of red bull.

Andersonisgod

rob316 wrote: »

Nonsense.

I will cut through your comment with great vengeance and fury. I will peel back the bark on that tree of lies and heresy you so speak from and expose you for the heathen that you are.

As soon as I finish my can of red bull.

It's been a fun day, eventful, noteworthy and full of energy and activity, maybe it was the red bull. We've had highs, and we've certainly had some lows, none moreso than on this very thread. At times we've seen well put together viewpoints, supported by strong arguments and we've seen some other viewpoints too. Sitting here now at the end of the day, I feel vindicated. My opinions, as accurate as they are, clearly are not shared by some on this forum but that's fine, among others they aren't opinions, they are just facts, among others you don't even need to do the type of vigorous scene-setting that I did today, it's just assumed everyone is aware of it, that it's common knowledge.

However that is not why I feel vindicated. Early in this thread, before any of the Mourinho stuff began, I stated that this country (and by extension England) would not understand Pep. I put forward the case that England is the wrong choice for Pep, I even have a quote to support this, read between the lines and you will notice not so subtle references to Mourinho

"Give them pragmatism dressed up as "managerial masterclasses", give them buzz words for their headlines, that's what England wants because it's easy, it's easy to understand, it's easy to digest. Give them innovation and they scoff, give them a new way of winning and they roar about how things are done around here, give them genius and they will not understand it, they only understand mediocrity."

On the day Mourinho was sacked, that is what I posted. Mourinho, the arch pragmatist. Mourinho, the yin to Pep's yang. Mourinho, a man so obsessed by Pep that he can't help but mention him at any half-opportunity that may arise. Mourinho, a man who lost complete control of his team and guided the reigning champions into a relegation battle. Yet on the day the inevitable happened and Mourinho was sacked, here we saw an outpouring of love from some for Mourinho, a man who so perfectly typifies English football that you could almost believe he was reared in some random office in Wembley stadium. Sections of the media falling over themselves to hail Mourinho and lambaste Abramovich and the players.

Mourinho they understand because it's easy, it's fast, it's cheap entertainment. Pep they have not the patience, the aptitude or the cunning to love and appreciate in the same way. England and the Premier League is not the right place for Pep, I stand by what I said, they do not deserve him.

Turtyturd

Fair play finding a computer screen to spit your red bull onto so you didn't damage your phone.

Andersonisgod

astonaidan wrote: »

Honestly dude, your knowledge of football is considered laughable. Their is no flaws in anything Ive said so far, where your harping on about how he was a factor in Germany winning the world cup and how he has left a life long impact on Bundesliga, for me and most people who actually watch football, Klopp had a far bigger impact on German football team and Bundesliga in recent times than any other manager excluding Loew.
Honestly Im going to just go back to ignoring your baseless comments, enjoy you fan boy idiocy

Weird that, considering that, in your world, Pep walked into a perfect Barcelona team and didn't have to do very much to make them better, then, he walked into Bayern and didn't do very much there either. Weird how every big club would love Pep to be their manager? Do they know something you don't perhaps? Aside from that obvious spanner in your grand theory, I really have no desire to continue speaking with you because, with lines like "Klopp had a far bigger impact on the German team" I can't even begin to debate with you because there is no starting point, I would have to speak of the most basic things and I'm not even nearly bored enough to do that. My football knowledge is "laughable"? You couldn't lace my metaphorical football boots.

Andersonisgod

Turtyturd wrote: »

Fair play finding a computer screen to spit your red bull onto so you didn't damage your phone.

I've gone out of my way to avoid damaging my phone, it's new and rather nice but that comment earlier probably placed it in the most precarious position it has yet been in.

Dirty Dingus McGee

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Weird that, considering that, in your world, Pep walked into a perfect Barcelona team and didn't have to do very much to make them better, then, he walked into Bayern and didn't do very much there either. Weird how every big club would love Pep to be their manager? Do they know something you don't perhaps? Aside from that obvious spanner in your grand theory, I really have no desire to continue speaking with you because, with lines like "Klopp had a far bigger impact on the German team" I can't even begin to debate with you because there is no starting point, I would have to speak of the most basic things and I'm not even nearly bored enough to do that. My football knowledge is "laughable"? You couldn't lace my metaphorical football boots.

What players in Germany's World cup winning team did Guardiola have a significant influence over in the 10 months he was coaching them at Bayern?

All the Bayern players on that team were great players before Guardiola was there.

His innovation of playing Philip Lahm in midfield wasn't really beneficial as Lahm switched back to playing at full back when thing's got serious in the world cup.

astonaidan

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Weird that, considering that, in your world, Pep walked into a perfect Barcelona team and didn't have to do very much to make them better, then, he walked into Bayern and didn't do very much there either. Weird how every big club would love Pep to be their manager? Do they know something you don't perhaps? Aside from that obvious spanner in your grand theory, I really have no desire to continue speaking with you because, with lines like "Klopp had a far bigger impact on the German team" I can't even begin to debate with you because there is no starting point, I would have to speak of the most basic things and I'm not even nearly bored enough to do that. My football knowledge is "laughable"? You couldn't lace my metaphorical football boots.

So your not going to answer any question I asked, thats cool or point out where Im wrong. But yeah your "knowledge" is obviously to high for any mere mortal to comprehend. Your attempt to be condescending towards english football shows you for what you are, your someone who thinks if they spout about other european leagues that they look worldly, what you do in fact look is pathetic. You dont want to explain my friend, because I have shown you for a blowhard which is what you are

SlickRic

Andersonisgod wrote: »

It's been a fun day, eventful, noteworthy and full of energy and activity, maybe it was the red bull. We've had highs, and we've certainly had some lows, none moreso than on this very thread. At times we've seen well put together viewpoints, supported by strong arguments and we've seen some other viewpoints too. Sitting here now at the end of the day, I feel vindicated. My opinions, as accurate as they are, clearly are not shared by some on this forum but that's fine, among others they aren't opinions, they are just facts, among others you don't even need to do the type of vigorous scene-setting that I did today, it's just assumed everyone is aware of it, that it's common knowledge.

However that is not why I feel vindicated. Early in this thread, before any of the Mourinho stuff began, I stated that this country (and by extension England) would not understand Pep. I put forward the case that England is the wrong choice for Pep, I even have a quote to support this, read between the lines and you will notice not so subtle references to Mourinho

"Give them pragmatism dressed up as "managerial masterclasses", give them buzz words for their headlines, that's what England wants because it's easy, it's easy to understand, it's easy to digest. Give them innovation and they scoff, give them a new way of winning and they roar about how things are done around here, give them genius and they will not understand it, they only understand mediocrity."

On the day Mourinho was sacked, that is what I posted. Mourinho, the arch pragmatist. Mourinho, the yin to Pep's yang. Mourinho, a man so obsessed by Pep that he can't help but mention him at any half-opportunity that may arise. Mourinho, a man who lost complete control of his team and guided the reigning champions into a relegation battle. Yet on the day the inevitable happened and Mourinho was sacked, here we saw an outpouring of love from some for Mourinho, a man who so perfectly typifies English football that you could almost believe he was reared in some random office in Wembley stadium. Sections of the media falling over themselves to hail Mourinho and lambaste Abramovich and the players.

Mourinho they understand because it's easy, it's fast, it's cheap entertainment. Pep they have not the patience, the aptitude or the cunning to love and appreciate in the same way. England and the Premier League is not the right place for Pep, I stand by what I said, they do not deserve him.

This shít makes me fúcking angry.

1. 'My opinions, as accurate as they are'...what a load of self-righteous twaddle of the highest order.

2. Pep is lauded by everyone. Stop pretending you're one of the few who appreciates him. You're not. You worship him. You see no fault in anything he does. There's a difference.

3. Your argument seems to be that the Premier League doesn't understand Pep and his ways because some sections appreciate what a good manager Mourinho is? That is illogical nonsense. You can appreciate both you know.

4. Pep is not pure of spirit and deed either. He'll sell out his ideologies as quickly as the next. He could easily go to City for the money. He played in Qatar for that reason. There are strong rumours he'll manage Qatar one day too. Yup, a real purist is Pep. I don't begrudge him it. He's entitled to do what he wants. But I suspect some of that doesn't quite fit into the idea that 'Pep is God'.

Andersonisgod

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

What players in Germany's World cup winning team did Guardiola have a significant influence over in the 10 months he was coaching them at Bayern?

All the Bayern players on that team were great players before Guardiola was there.

His innovation of playing Philip Lahm in midfield wasn't really beneficial as Lahm switched back to playing at full back when thing's got serious in the world cup.

Here we go. Quotes incoming in 3,2,1...

"Guardiola's ideas are superb, Bayern are focusing on shifting the game into the opponent's half and that is our intention as well. We want to have a lot of possession." -Joachim Low

“We are lucky that many of this team benefit from the coaching of men like Pep Guardiola.”- Joachim Low

Here's an article from Squawka which that quote was taken from

http://www.squawka.com/news/why-germany-can-partially-credit-their-success-to-pep-guardiola/143859

Great players yes but just because you are a great player doesn't mean you don't need coaching. The idea that just because you are a great player you can start playing any style of football seamlessly with no assistance at all is mind boggling.

Andersonisgod

astonaidan wrote: »

So your not going to answer any question I asked, thats cool or point out where Im wrong. But yeah your "knowledge" is obviously to high for any mere mortal to comprehend. Your attempt to be condescending towards english football shows you for what you are, your someone who thinks if they spout about other european leagues that they look worldly, what you do in fact look is pathetic. You dont want to explain my friend, because I have shown you for a blowhard which is what you are

What's a "blowhard"? It doesn't matter. I am curious about this one because you did put it forward, what's the basis for your argument that Jurgen Klopp contributed more to the World Cup winning German national team than Pep did? I am genuinely curious because I've never heard that claim before, ever, and there isn't a lot of football claims that I have not heard.

Aside from getting an answer to that question I have no other desire to speak to you for reasons already given.

Andersonisgod

SlickRic wrote: »

This shít makes me fúcking angry.

1. 'My opinions, as accurate as they are'...what a load of self-righteous twaddle of the highest order.

2. Pep is lauded by everyone. Stop pretending you're one of the few who appreciates him. You're not. You worship him. You see no fault in anything he does. There's a difference.

3. Your argument seems to be that the Premier League doesn't understand Pep and his ways because some sections appreciate what a good manager Mourinho is? That is illogical nonsense. You can appreciate both you know.

4. Pep is not pure of spirit and deed either. He'll sell out his ideologies as quickly as the next. He could easily go to City for the money. He played in Qatar for that reason. There are strong rumours he'll manage Qatar one day too. Yup, a real purist is Pep. I don't begrudge him it. He's entitled to do what he wants. But I suspect dome of that doesn't quite fit into the idea that 'Pep is God'.

Well I'm sorry I angered you, I don't intend to anger people but yet here we are, so I hope my words can douse the fires of your anger.

1. With most things I am just like anybody else, a regular person doing regular things, speaking in a regular way, thinking normal thoughts, mingling with other regular people. On this one tiny (in the overall context of things) subject, I'm more like a type of preacher, standing on a rather large rock with a wooden stick in one hand, a piece of scripture in the other, shouting at everybody else. Is it fun? No, but it's something I have to do.

2. Is he? I mean, is he really? Read through some of these comments, at one stage somebody literally said they have more respect for Tony Pulis and not a single person even replied to him to tell him off. Meanwhile I'm here extolling the virtues of Pep and I'm fighting off a pack of wolves, with the aforementioned wooden stick.

3. Yes that is my argument. Mourinho's brand of football is so perfectly British it appeals to their media. His character, his press conferences feed the media's love of him. Pep, with his Barcajax brand of football, with his fluid formations and crazy experiments, with his shy demeanor and his sweaters is not what they want in England.

4. City or Man Utd, Chelsea or Arsenal, PSG or Juventus, it doesn't matter, every top club in modern football could be considered a "sell out" because they are all massive money hungry machines. I don't think Pep is without flaw or that he is God. He is a hero of mine, and there is no coach I hold in higher regard than Pep Guardiola but I wouldn't say he is a God or anything, which I suppose would make me a false apostle...hmmm, that's quite deep and is something to think about.

SlickRic

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Well I'm sorry I angered you, I don't intend to anger people but yet here we are, so I hope my words can douse the fires of your anger.

1. With most things I am just like anybody else, a regular person doing regular things, speaking in a regular way, thinking normal thoughts, mingling with other regular people. On this one tiny (in the overall context of things) subject, I'm more like a type of preacher, standing on a rather large rock with a wooden stick in one hand, a piece of scripture in the other, shouting at everybody else. Is it fun? No, but it's something I have to do.

2. Is he? I mean, is he really? Read through some of these comments, at one stage somebody literally said they have more respect for Tony Pulis and not a single person even replied to him to tell him off. Meanwhile I'm here extolling the virtues of Pep and I'm fighting off a pack of wolves, with the aforementioned wooden stick.

3. Yes that is my argument. Mourinho's brand of football is so perfectly British it appeals to their media. His character, his press conferences feed the media's love of him. Pep, with his Barcajax brand of football, with his fluid formations and crazy experiments, with his shy demeanor and his sweaters is not what they want in England.

4. City or Man Utd, Chelsea or Arsenal, PSG or Juventus, it doesn't matter, every top club in modern football could be considered a "sell out" because they are all massive money hungry machines. I don't think Pep is without flaw or that he is God. He is a hero of mine, and there is no coach I hold in higher regard than Pep Guardiola but I wouldn't say he is a God or anything, which I suppose would make me a false apostle...hmmm, that's quite deep and is something to think about.

1. Continued self-righteous twaddle.

2. You use people not being arsed to get angry about a Tony Pulis comment on on thread, in order to support the idea that Pep isn't appreciated by the masses? Bloody hell you're paranoid.

3. That's all in your head. You want to believe you're the only one who appreciates Pep. You're not though. Others just don't put him on some weird pedestal. Also, do you watch English football? Very few teams are playing Mourinho's style at all. You just made that 'perfectly British' shít up.

4. Qatar isn't quite the same as any of the clubs you mentioned; let's not be silly.

astonaidan

Andersonisgod wrote: »

What's a "blowhard"? It doesn't matter. I am curious about this one because you did put it forward, what's the basis for your argument that Jurgen Klopp contributed more to the World Cup winning German national team than Pep did? I am genuinely curious because I've never heard that claim before, ever, and there isn't a lot of football claims that I have not heard.

Aside from getting an answer to that question I have no other desire to speak to you for reasons already given.

You really havent a clue, hmm lets see how did Klopp contribute more, lets see he created the Dortmund team, 5 of the players in that squad were Klopp players, zero of that were Pep players, would have been 6 if not for Reus injury. You know honestly nothing about football, once more your the guy in the bar who shouts loudest to give yourself the impression you know something, without answering a single question. Ill put it in an easier term for you "Village Idiot"

bucketybuck

If Pep goes to England would he be able to integrate any sort of doping regime to his club, or would he find the clubs there more resistant to doping on that scale?

Turtwig

Ajax is where I'd love Pep to go. See how much he could get them to punch in Europe again.

Arsenal seem the perfect fit for him in England. If he goes to City he HAS to win the league. Period.

Bayern were a walking field hospital for spells last season but you don't fcking play 3 at the back with a high line against Barcelona! (IN BOTH FCKING LEGS) That was a black mark against him in my view. He's too aligned to his philosophy.

astonaidan

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Well I'm sorry I angered you, I don't intend to anger people but yet here we are, so I hope my words can douse the fires of your anger.

1. With most things I am just like anybody else, a regular person doing regular things, speaking in a regular way, thinking normal thoughts, mingling with other regular people. On this one tiny (in the overall context of things) subject, I'm more like a type of preacher, standing on a rather large rock with a wooden stick in one hand, a piece of scripture in the other, shouting at everybody else. Is it fun? No, but it's something I have to do.

2. Is he? I mean, is he really? Read through some of these comments, at one stage somebody literally said they have more respect for Tony Pulis and not a single person even replied to him to tell him off. Meanwhile I'm here extolling the virtues of Pep and I'm fighting off a pack of wolves, with the aforementioned wooden stick.

3. Yes that is my argument. Mourinho's brand of football is so perfectly British it appeals to their media. His character, his press conferences feed the media's love of him. Pep, with his Barcajax brand of football, with his fluid formations and crazy experiments, with his shy demeanor and his sweaters is not what they want in England.

4. City or Man Utd, Chelsea or Arsenal, PSG or Juventus, it doesn't matter, every top club in modern football could be considered a "sell out" because they are all massive money hungry machines. I don't think Pep is without flaw or that he is God. He is a hero of mine, and there is no coach I hold in higher regard than Pep Guardiola but I wouldn't say he is a God or anything, which I suppose would make me a false apostle...hmmm, that's quite deep and is something to think about.

You realise everything your saying about Mourinho is exactly how you say people are about Pep, how can you not see this, its really hilarious

Ulysses Gaze

Turtwig wrote: »

Ajax is where I'd love Pep to go. See how much he could get them to punch in Europe again.

Arsenal seem the perfect fit for him in England. If he goes to City he HAS to win the league. Period.

Bayern were a walking field hospital for spells last season but you don't fcking play 3 at the back with a high line against Barcelona! (IN BOTH FCKING LEGS) That was a black mark against him in my view. He's too aligned to his philosophy.

Has to win the Champions League within Three seasons as well.

Andersonisgod

SlickRic wrote: »

1. Continued self-righteous twaddle.

2. You use people not being arsed to get angry about a Tony Pulis comment on on thread, in order to support the idea that Pep isn't appreciated by the masses? Bloody hell you're paranoid.

3. That's all in your head. You want to believe you're the only one who appreciates Pep. You're not though. Others just don't put him on some weird pedestal. Also, do you watch English football? Very few teams are playing Mourinho's style at all. You just made that 'perfectly British' shít up.

4. Qatar isn't quite the same as any of the club's you mentioned; let's not be silly.

1. You didn't enjoy that? But did you see how I made it a kind of running gag throughout the comment, like how the preacher thing actually ended up tying the whole comment together. Personally I thought it was quite witty and just a little bit clever too but obviously the flames of your anger are far greater than first anticipated.

2. I mean, it was just one example, it was the most extreme example but it was just one. There have been so many more on this thread alone. Ranging from ill-informed to just downright odd.

3. I know I'm not, I speak to enough people who appreciate Pep to know I am not the only person who appreciates Pep. Even on this forum I am not the only person that appreciates Pep, which is great. I watch English football very closely. Mourinho's suspicion of possession has been rooted deep into the heart of English football for a century. It's a quintessentially English belief, like fish and chips or having a begrudging respect for Gary Barlow.

4. What's wrong wit Qatar? I don't even understand why that is being used as a stick to beat Guardiola with.

Turtwig

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Has to win the Champions League within Three seasons as well.

If he wins enough domestic silverware I'd let him off with regular last fours/ final in Europe.

Andersonisgod

astonaidan wrote: »

You really havent a clue, hmm lets see how did Klopp contribute more, lets see he created the Dortmund team, 5 of the players in that squad were Klopp players, zero of that were Pep players, would have been 6 if not for Reus injury. You know honestly nothing about football, once more your the guy in the bar who shouts loudest to give yourself the impression you know something, without answering a single question. Ill put it in an easier term for you "Village Idiot"

5. 7 were Pep players. Now, I don't claim to be many things, aside from a very specific type of preacher, and I am by no means a mathematician but I am pretty sure that 7 is a bigger number than 5. The thing is though, it's not even about the number, it's about the style of play used by the German national team, how closely it resembled Pepball, how it had moved away from the counter attacking style of the 2010 vintage (which actually bears a far greater resemblance to Klopp's brand of football than the 2014 team ever did). Now, if the village idiot knows that and the other people in the village don't, I'd start to question the education system being used in that village.

Skylinehead

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Mourinho's suspicion of possession has been rooted deep into the heart of English football for a century. It's a quintessentially English belief, like fish and chips or having a begrudging respect for Gary Barlow.

You think England don't like possession? Bit of an odd assertion that, considering Arsene Wenger has been at Arsenal for 19 years now with that pesky possession and short passing. Alex Ferguson wasn't averse to it either, and they're both revered.

Dirty Dingus McGee

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Here we go. Quotes incoming in 3,2,1...

"Guardiola's ideas are superb, Bayern are focusing on shifting the game into the opponent's half and that is our intention as well. We want to have a lot of possession." -Joachim Low

“We are lucky that many of this team benefit from the coaching of men like Pep Guardiola.”- Joachim Low

Here's an article from Squawka which that quote was taken from

http://www.squawka.com/news/why-germany-can-partially-credit-their-success-to-pep-guardiola/143859

Great players yes but just because you are a great player doesn't mean you don't need coaching. The idea that just because you are a great player you can start playing any style of football seamlessly with no assistance at all is mind boggling.

Wow what an incredibly groundbreaking idea by Guardiola to think that playing the game in the opponents half might work.

Did you ever consider that most quotes from managers etc are pretty much bull**** as they just heap praise on each other to seem nice and give themselves an easier time.

I never said great players didn't need coaching I said that Bayerns players were great long before Guardiola had anything to do with them.

Andersonisgod

Skylinehead wrote: »

You think England don't like possession? Bit of an odd assertion that, considering Arsene Wenger has been at Arsenal for 19 years now with that pesky possession and short passing. Alex Ferguson wasn't averse to it either, and they're both revered.

An exception to the rule. I mean this is a country where clubs actually willingly employee the likes of Pulis, Allardyce, Pardew ect. all coaches who the English media always seem very ready to praise. However my point was made with a more historical view in mind.

Andersonisgod

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Wow what an incredibly groundbreaking idea by Guardiola to think that playing the game in the opponents half might work.

Did you ever consider that most quotes from managers etc are pretty much bull**** as they just heap praise on each other to seem nice and give themselves an easier time.

I never said great players didn't need coaching I said that Bayerns players were great long before Guardiola had anything to do with them.

Oh right, we are just going to disregard the opinion of the German team's coach to suit our own argument, very good.

I'm not doing any more scene-setting, I don't care, I'm just not. If you think that the football that Bayern team played, as good as it was, was the same type of football that they have been playing under Pep for 3 seasons (!) now is exactly the same then sure, you can go on thinking that, no skin off my nose. It would be completely incorrect and I'm pretty sure you can find stats to prove that it's incorrect (some of those might even be in that Squawka article I just linked) but if you think those are the same things then I'll let you be.

SlickRic

Andersonisgod wrote: »

An exception to the rule. I mean this is a country where clubs actually willingly employee the likes of Pulis, Allardyce, Pardew ect. all coaches who the English media always seem very ready to praise. However my point was made with a more historical view in mind.

Pulis and Allardyce get jobs because they keep clubs in the Premier League. They're exceptionally employable.

Pardew is a stupid example. His teams play a smashing brand of football.

Skylinehead

Andersonisgod wrote: »

An exception to the rule. I mean this is a country where clubs actually willingly employee the likes of Pulis, Allardyce, Pardew ect. all coaches who the English media always seem very ready to praise. However my point was made with a more historical view in mind.

Two of the greatest managers in the league, who have pretty much been there for the entirety of the last 20 years, are "exceptions"? Their standing in England is far, far beyond that of any of the other examples you put out there. How do you explain that?

And if your point is "historical", then in relation to English football of the present day, which is what we're discussing here, then it doesn't have any merit whatsoever.

Andersonisgod

SlickRic wrote: »

Pulis and Allardyce get jobs because they keep clubs in the Premier League. They're exceptionally employable.

Pardew is a stupid example. His teams play a smashing brand of football.

They do, they really do which I suppose says something about the league and the country it is played in.

If you think that Pardew's Palace play smashing football that's fine, it's subjective, there's no measurement for "smashing football." Is it a successful brand of football? For Pardew it is, why aren't Barcelona and Bayern Munich playing Pardewball instead of Pepball? Who knows.

What happened to the number system you were employing? I was actually kind of enjoying that.

Andersonisgod

Skylinehead wrote: »

Two of the greatest managers in the league, who have pretty much been there for the entirety of the last 20 years, are "exceptions"? Their standing in England is far, far beyond that of any of the other examples you put out there. How do you explain that?

And if your point is "historical", then in relation to English football of the present day, which is what we're discussing here, then it doesn't have any merit whatsoever.

Two. You've used the word yourself. Two. Two examples, two examples with great longevity and perhaps you could argue the merits of the examples if you really wanted to (I really don't) but still, two. Compare that two to all the coaches employed by all the English clubs in all of that period of time and try to gauge what the prevailing football philosophies seem to be. Better still, to make it easier, look at the English national team, look at how they've played for years and years, stretching back to the very beginning of the regulated game. I am not going to go through that but it is the answer to your second paragraph, I've recommended it before but "Inverting the Pyramid" by Jonathan Wilson is basically the answer to why the historical tendencies, traditions and beliefs of English football still play a part in the modern game in England. It's a terrific read, you'll love it.

SlickRic

Andersonisgod wrote: »

If you think that Pardew's Palace play smashing football that's fine, it's subjective, there's no measurement for "smashing football." Is it a successful brand of football? For Pardew it is, why aren't Barcelona and Bayern Munich playing Pardewball instead of Pepball? Who knows.

Pardew's Crystal Palace play a similar style to Heynckes' Bayern team that Pep's Bayern continues to fail to be as successful as. The players obviously aren't as good, but that's the style.

The Real Madrid team that destroyed Pep's Bayern in the Champions League play the same style.

Andersonisgod

SlickRic wrote: »

Pardew's Crystal Palace play a similar style to Heynckes' Bayern team that Pep's Bayern continues to fail to be as successful as. The players obviously aren't as good, but that's the style.

The Real Madrid team that destroyed Pep's Bayern in the Champions League play the same style.

I'm sorry but I think this is my stop, ye, it is. We've arrived at a place where Pardew's Crystal Palace is being compared (with no sense of irony, at least from what I can detect) with Heynckes' treble winning Bayern Munich side and Ancelotti's Real Madrid, two teams that went on to win the Champions League. This has all gotten far too strange for me, I mean sometimes I operate in a metaphorical sphere that I am not quite sure that everybody quite gets but even I can't keep up with this. I don't know, I guess it's late, maybe we aren't thinking straight, maybe I could dish out a good ol' helping of "benefit of the doubt" but ye, I have to go now.

Skylinehead

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Two. You've used the word yourself. Two. Two examples, two examples with great longevity and perhaps you could argue the merits of the examples if you really wanted to (I really don't) but still, two. Compare that two to all the coaches employed by all the English clubs in all of that period of time and try to gauge what the prevailing football philosophies seem to be. Better still, to make it easier, look at the English national team, look at how they've played for years and years, stretching back to the very beginning of the regulated game. I am not going to go through that but it is the answer to your second paragraph, I've recommended it before but "Inverting the Pyramid" by Jonathan Wilson is basically the answer to why the historical tendencies, traditions and beliefs of English football still play a part in the modern game in England. It's a terrific read, you'll love it.

I just picked the best two (although noting that, Wenger's been there as much as everyone else in the league put together), there's plenty more so don't look into it. Klopp, Martinez, Pochettino, Mark Hughes (Stoke play great stuff these days!), Quique Flores, Howe, Bilic, Koeman, managerless Swansea, Pellegrini, van Gaal. Add Wenger to that list and that's 12 current Premier League managers that have good styles of football, out of 20. I think your point is completely without merit. Just because there's a scattering of Pulis and Allardyce doesn't mean that's what the fans want as a football style, it's because they don't want to be relegated.

Have you watched the England national team over the last few years? Their game is entirely based off possession, although it's sterile boring stuff for the most part. Hardly route 1 stuff though.

StringerBell

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I'm sorry but I think this is my stop, ye, it is. We've arrived at a place where Pardew's Crystal Palace is being compared (with no sense of irony, at least from what I can detect) with Heynckes' treble winning Bayern Munich side and Ancelotti's Real Madrid, two teams that went on to win the Champions League. This has all gotten far too strange for me, I mean sometimes I operate in a metaphorical sphere that I am not quite sure that everybody quite gets but even I can't keep up with this. I don't know, I guess it's late, maybe we aren't thinking straight, maybe I could dish out a good ol' helping of "benefit of the doubt" but ye, I have to go now.

You can't grasp teams who operate on vastly different levels of skill/ability implementing similar styles/tactical instructions?

This really goes against a lot of your other stuff tbh.

Is it possibly too simple a concept for such a nuanced mind to grasp?

gosplan

Weird as it sounds I agree with AIG on this.

Pep's influence on the national teams has been profound. Obviously they're great players anyway but the strategy seems to be 'build on Pep's foundations'.

Pity England won't get this boost because they're just crap.