Pep on the way to England

SlickRic

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I'm sorry but I think this is my stop, ye, it is. We've arrived at a place where Pardew's Crystal Palace is being compared (with no sense of irony, at least from what I can detect) with Heynckes' treble winning Bayern Munich side and Ancelotti's Real Madrid, two teams that went on to win the Champions League. This has all gotten far too strange for me, I mean sometimes I operate in a metaphorical sphere that I am not quite sure that everybody quite gets but even I can't keep up with this. I don't know, I guess it's late, maybe we aren't thinking straight, maybe I could dish out a good ol' helping of "benefit of the doubt" but ye, I have to go now.

You're being purposely ignorant. Stop it.

You know I'm not comparing the teams' quality. It's their styles. Nice deflecting from the point though. Brilliant at it as usual.

And don't make me out go be a fúcking idiot with your condescending bollocks, thank you very much.

deaddonkey15

Andersonisgod wrote: »

An exception to the rule. I mean this is a country where clubs actually willingly employee the likes of Pulis, Allardyce, Pardew ect. all coaches who the English media always seem very ready to praise. However my point was made with a more historical view in mind.

Nothing wrong with those coaches. All good coaches in their own right.

Arsenal are very much a possession based team. So too are United now, and City. Swansea got plenty of praise under Brendan Rogers a few years back for their possession based football. For much of that season Joe Allen was statistically one of the best passers in Europe. Even Wigan tried to play a passing/possession based game before finally being relegated. As has been said before, your attempts to sound trendy and knowledgeable by claiming unique insights into European football because you have a Sky subscription whilst simultaneously ridiculing the English game is fooling absolutely no one.

Claiming Guardiola had an influence on Germany's world cup success is laughable. 7 of the squad were "Pep players"? Strange how most people knew who these trophy winning international footballers were before Pep came to Germany and took Bayern backwards. If you are going to credit him for his influence on the world cup win, surely you should criticise him for failing to influence the German national team enough to take more than 1 point off Ireland over 2 Euro 2016 games? Guardiola outclassed by Martin O'Neill?

Corholio

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I'm sorry but I think this is my stop, ye, it is. We've arrived at a place where Pardew's Crystal Palace is being compared (with no sense of irony, at least from what I can detect) with Heynckes' treble winning Bayern Munich side and Ancelotti's Real Madrid, two teams that went on to win the Champions League. This has all gotten far too strange for me, I mean sometimes I operate in a metaphorical sphere that I am not quite sure that everybody quite gets but even I can't keep up with this. I don't know, I guess it's late, maybe we aren't thinking straight, maybe I could dish out a good ol' helping of "benefit of the doubt" but ye, I have to go now.

Not even close to what he said and you know it but it has been a few minutes since you threw in a whimsical image of your disdain for opinions or a visual aid of a drink being spilled so why not twist words and give you the chance to use them and mention yourself as being different in spheres or whatever other separation nonsense that you like to mention. It's about the 5th time you've been 'going' as well. The sad thing is there's plenty of grounded debate to be had about topics like this but you refuse to deal in that and much prefer to use boasts of 'knowledge', sweeping statements about leagues and over exaggeration of superlatives and move back and forward between them. Shame.

astonaidan

Andersonisgod wrote: »

5. 7 were Pep players. Now, I don't claim to be many things, aside from a very specific type of preacher, and I am by no means a mathematician but I am pretty sure that 7 is a bigger number than 5. The thing is though, it's not even about the number, it's about the style of play used by the German national team, how closely it resembled Pepball, how it had moved away from the counter attacking style of the 2010 vintage (which actually bears a far greater resemblance to Klopp's brand of football than the 2014 team ever did). Now, if the village idiot knows that and the other people in the village don't, I'd start to question the education system being used in that village.

7 players played for Bayern, but they were their well in advance of Pep, all were playing for Germany before Pep, yet again proving to me you are clueless, but thanks for playing

Dirty Dingus McGee

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Oh right, we are just going to disregard the opinion of the German team's coach to suit our own argument, very good.

I'm not doing any more scene-setting, I don't care, I'm just not. If you think that the football that Bayern team played, as good as it was, was the same type of football that they have been playing under Pep for 3 seasons (!) now is exactly the same then sure, you can go on thinking that, no skin off my nose. It would be completely incorrect and I'm pretty sure you can find stats to prove that it's incorrect (some of those might even be in that Squawka article I just linked) but if you think those are the same things then I'll let you be.

I never said it was the same style of play actually what Bayern were doing before Guardiola arrived was more enjoyable to watch and more effective also.

In the 4 years before Guardiola was at Bayern they got to the final 3 times they still haven't got to the final with Guardiola as manager.

Since 2006 Germany have got to the semi final of every major tournament so I think that has a lot more of an influence on Germany's performances in 2014 than a coach who was coaching already great players for 9 months before the 2014 world cup.If I was the manager of Bayern I'd fancy Germany would have won the 2014 world cup.

Germany would have won the war if pep was around back then

klose

I believe rephael honegsteins book delves into how Germany eventually came about to winning the World Cup, have not read it but I can't imagine there's many chapters or paragraphs even laying much praise on pep. Pretty stupid thing to even try to argue for.
As for pep himself, you can't begrudge him his honours list and his barca team and at times his Bayern team(still can't understand the notion of him playing lahm in midfield) have been an absolute joy to watch but at the end of the day he took over the two best teams in Spain and Germany where titles have flown for years. I would be very interested to see him in England, I don't subscribe to the notion of it being "the best league in the world" but it's sure a hell of a lot more competitive than other leagues.

Dirty Dingus McGee

klose wrote: »

I believe rephael honegsteins book delves into how Germany eventually came about to winning the World Cup, have not read it but I can't imagine there's many chapters or paragraphs even laying much praise on pep. Pretty stupid thing to even try to argue for.
As for pep himself, you can't begrudge him his honours list and his barca team and at times his Bayern team(still can't understand the notion of him playing lahm in midfield) have been an absolute joy to watch but at the end of the day he took over the two best teams in Spain and Germany where titles have flown for years. I would be very interested to see him in England, I don't subscribe to the notion of it being "the best league in the world" but it's sure a hell of a lot more competitive than other leagues.

I don't think it is really more competitive though.Only 3 teams have won it in the last 10 years.

The premier league has only become competitive when the top teams have a dip in form and make the rest of the league look better than it actually is, that hasn't happened in Germany and Spain in the last 6 or 7 years.

The Bundesliga was very competitive for the whole of the 00's but for most of that period of time there wasn't an outstanding team in the league now that there have been 2 great teams in the competition this decade it isn't as competitive.

recylingbin

Having read this thread, I feel I have had a peak inside the mind of one direction fans

Peist2007

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

In the 4 years before Guardiola was at Bayern they got to the final 3 times they still haven't got to the final with Guardiola as manager.

This is pretty damning in fairness. Especially considering Pep was simultaneously saving German football at the same time :rolleyes:

TheDoc

The worry I have for Pep in England is how he burns himself out. It's well documented he is meticulous in preperations and analysis, always trying to find the weakness in the opposing team, and how to setup his team to exploit it. Player developement, the works. He is so hands on, and so intense.

Now when you factor he has done that in two uncompetitive leagues, with two dominant sides, how is he going to manage and cope in England. Where at any game, his team could get thumped by relegation fodder. Where he will be fighting off three and four title rivals, not just one, or in Germany, none.

While he is an exceptional coach and I rate him so highly, I do worry about him learning to deal with delegation and where his energy needs to go into. It probably won't be a big talking point or even mentioned if and when he does come, but it's something that I know I'm very curious about, as it is striking from any books or material about him, just so much he runs himself into the ground over the course of a season.

Pep at Bayern in terms of success, would probably fall under "doing a good job" but nothing spectacular. In a league with no competition, the CL is where the test is at, and why he was brought in, and I think it's fair to say he has under delivered on this point.

Although I feel they could well do it this season. While I thought it a bit mental for them to release Kroos and Schweinsteiger in quick succession, the introduction of Vidal has really added depth to a CM area that was all too decimated by injury during the crunch CL period. If Robben is fit and firing for the business end of the CL, they could well win it.

jmayo

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Only those unaware of what Bayern wanted when Pep joined will consider his time in Germany to be a failure. They wanted an identity, they wanted somebody to finish the project which they started with Louis Van Gaal and Pep has done all of those things, his influence on the German national team and German football as a whole is undeniable.

Will you lay off the sycophantic hogwash.
Bayern have been a huge club for years and try telling their fans they only got an identity when your messiah showed up.
They were winning European cups when Barca were looking on with envy at their neighbours Real.
You do know they won three in a bloody row in the 70s. :rolleyes:

Then you seem to completely ignore what Heynckes achieved in winning the treble and of course in your first post just mentioned LVG, as in anyone that has connection to your Barca.

And you talk about how mush Pep has done with the team post Jupp.
Did you also factor in fact that Jupp didn't have a truly great centre forward as in Lewandowski.
He had Mandzukic and Gomex if I recall correctly.

Under Heynckes they won the league in the first week in April with 6 odd games to go.
Of course to you he was probably lucky to unexpectedly win the treble.
BTW didn't he thrash Pep's former team 7-0 ?

Then you try and lessen the achievements of Low and the German national team structure which had more to do with them winning WC than the one year of Pep in Germany or them watching Barca on TV.

I don't think you denigrating the achievements of others to further highlight the achievements of Pep is fair on either side.

Pep has been a great coach, but as someone else said he has taken over arguably some of the very best players of this or any generation.

It is indeed a huge measure of his abilities that he has managed to make those same huge stars very high achievers on a continous basis.

But he hasn't had to prove himself building a team up from more humble beginnings with less resources.
Whereas I think Mourinho proved a huge amount with Porto.

BTW I do think as a person Pep would be head and shoulders over Jose.

castletownman

I took the liberty to delve further into AIG's assertion that Pep was the sole reason why Germany won the WC by focusing on the Bayern players (at the time) that played in the final:

Manuel Neuer: was already one of the world's top goalkeeper's before Pep's arrival. Certainly hasn't progressed his game any further since, and may even have developed more rush of bloods to the head as a result of Bayern's high line.

Philip Lahm: pound for pound one of the best of the full-backs of the modern era, was well established before Pep arrived. If anything, his deployment in centre-mid on occasion by Pep has unsettled their defence and stunted their progression in the CL.

Jerome Boateng: another treble winner. Has looked vulnerable at times in Pep's new-look defensive set-up.

Bastian Schweinsteiger: arguably the poster boy of the German revolution from South Africa 2010. Has been let go since, though largely owing to having miles on the clock.

Toni Kroos: went to Real Madrid after the World Cup. Has he really been the pass-master that Pep has gained a reputation for honing?

Thomas Muller: one of the big-game performers and scorers in world football, but was so before Pep took over. Thrived in the role afforded to him by Heckynes.

Mario Gotze: hero in the final, but again arguably showed more at Dortmund than he has done for Bayern so far.

So I suppose what I am trying to get at is that it is ludicrous to suggest that Germany's WC win was due to the arrival of Guardiola into the Bundesliga. That triumph was born out of investing in a game-plan, assimilating a golden generation of players into the national set-up, and sticking by a manager in order to build up stability and familiarity. A slow build since 2010 World Cup. The talent was there, it's not like he suddenly unearthed it.

You can point to all the domestic records Bayern have broken during Guardiola's tenure all you want, but the fact they have failed to build upon their treble-winning season in 2013 at a European level borders on negligence, particularly the manner of which they exited the CL in the last two seasons.

Another thing, perhaps if AIG used "arguably" in his posts more often, as opposed to acting as if everything he says is gospel, then perhaps he wouldn't suffer so much antagonism

Ancelotti Munich bound. He's dead right to avoid England.

The race for Pep is on

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/carlo-ancelotti-agrees-in-principle-to-join-bayern-munich-1.2472596

Andersonisgod

Could I run through these posts? Absolutely. Will I? Absolutely not, when words are put in my mouth, for example somebody on here claiming that I said Pep deserves all the credit for Germany's World Cup win when I can find a quote of me saying that it'd be ludicrous to even suggest he deserves 50% credit, and when it's abundantly clear that for all of the comments and "opinions" I am more than certain that the posters providing them don't watch Spanish football, they don't watch German football, they haven't read any of the books on Pep, or any books of Germany's change in approach to developing players. Therefore it's pointless because, as seen with this comment:

"Philip Lahm: pound for pound one of the best of the full-backs of the modern era, was well established before Pep arrived. If anything, his deployment in centre-mid on occasion by Pep has unsettled their defence and stunted their progression in the CL."

It's a debate not worth having. I don't want to say it's like fighting ignorance because I don't believe it is ignorance or that there is any malice, it's just a lack of knowledge on a particular subject. If I want to take part in a debate where one side has knowledge and the other doesn't I can talk to any number of animals of inanimate objects, the result will be the same. By the way, if you're wondering what the problem with that post is, it's that one of the main things things that Pep put the heavy defeat to Madrid down to was not trusting his instinct (as he had done all season) to continue with Lahm in midfield, that he switched him to full back he felt ultimately cost Munich in relinquishing their control of the game. That fun little fact comes courtesy of the book Herr Pep, a fantastic insight into an incredible football mind and a true force of nature, you should probably give it a read.

Dirty Dingus McGee

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Could I run through these posts? Absolutely. Will I? Absolutely not, when words are put in my mouth, for example somebody on here claiming that I said Pep deserves all the credit for Germany's World Cup win when I can find a quote of me saying that it'd be ludicrous to even suggest he deserves 50% credit, and when it's abundantly clear that for all of the comments and "opinions" I am more than certain that the posters providing them don't watch Spanish football, they don't watch German football, they haven't read any of the books on Pep, or any books of Germany's change in approach to developing players. Therefore it's pointless because, as seen with this comment:

"Philip Lahm: pound for pound one of the best of the full-backs of the modern era, was well established before Pep arrived. If anything, his deployment in centre-mid on occasion by Pep has unsettled their defence and stunted their progression in the CL."

It's a debate not worth having. I don't want to say it's like fighting ignorance because I don't believe it is ignorance or that there is any malice, it's just a lack of knowledge on a particular subject. If I want to take part in a debate where one side has knowledge and the other doesn't I can talk to any number of animals of inanimate objects, the result will be the same. By the way, if you're wondering what the problem with that post is, it's that one of the main things things that Pep put the heavy defeat to Madrid down to was not trusting his instinct (as he had done all season) to continue with Lahm in midfield, that he switched him to full back he felt ultimately cost Munich in relinquishing their control of the game. That fun little fact comes courtesy of the book Herr Pep, a fantastic insight into an incredible football mind and a true force of nature, you should probably give it a read.

So you believe that was a success despite Joachim Low abandoning it in the World Cup when it was clear Gemany and Lahm were better off with him playing as a full back.

Germany didn't change their approach on developing players 9 months before the World Cup when Guardiola arrived so he clearly had almost no impact on Germany winning the world cup.

Andersonisgod

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

So you believe that was a success despite Joachim Low abandoning it in the World Cup when it was clear Gemany and Lahm were better off with him playing as a full back.

Germany didn't change their approach on developing players 9 months before the World Cup when Guardiola arrived so he clearly had almost no impact on Germany winning the world cup.

It doesn't matter what I believe, I'm not Pep Guardiola, I wasn't in the situation he was found himself in, in 2013 when he decided that Lahm was to be his perfect Bayern central midfielder. I have an idea of his thought process because I've read Herr Pep and the unique nature of that book (Marti Peranau shadowed Pep throughout the his first season at Bayern) but that doesn't leave me in a position to judge the success or failure of that endeavor. The thing about Pep though is that no 2 games are the same, every game is different, every game requires that the team adapt to those changing circumstances, perhaps in some games Lahm is needed in midfield, in others maybe he is needed at full back, or as some kind of auxiliary winger or as a third centre back, it depends on the game. Here's quite a balanced article by respected journalist Raphael Honigstein that offers a glimpse into how Pep works. http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2015/dec/19/pep-guardiola-bayern-munich-tactical-genius

I feel like I've gone over this point a million times. Was Pep there in 2001 when all this change was taking place? No. Did he play a part in developing these kids as youngsters? No. Have these, already established, German players in the Bayern Munich team developed from working under Pep? Absolutely. They are more adaptable, more able to control a game using possession. Here's a quote from a Squawaka article, quoting Matthias Sammer

"Sammer explains: “When I was at the DFB, we closely analysed Guardiola’s Barcelona side, from their personality to style of play.
“That team had an identity that we wanted for our national team, individuality, quality, stamina, style and class. I spent four years analysing that team whilst trying to imprint it on our youngsters”.

There's literally any number of articles and books you can find on how Pep changed the mindset and style of Bayern Munich and the knock on effect this had on the German players from Bayern Munich.

ERG89

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

So you believe that was a success despite Joachim Low abandoning it in the World Cup when it was clear Gemany and Lahm were better off with him playing as a full back.

Germany didn't change their approach on developing players 9 months before the World Cup when Guardiola arrived so he clearly had almost no impact on Germany winning the world cup.

Tbh they played better football in 2010 than 2014 imo. Loew didn't move Lahm until injuries forced it upon him then
Mustafi was as big a joke there at RB as Rafinha is. The Lahm midfield experiment never was worth moving one of if not the best full back in Europe out of position.

Dirty Dingus McGee

ERG89 wrote: »

Tbh they played better football in 2010 than 2014 imo. Loew didn't move Lahm until injuries forced it upon him then
Mustafi was as big a joke there at RB as Rafinha is. The Lahm midfield experiment never was worth moving one of if not the best full back in Europe out of position.

Proved how wrong the whole experiment was with both Bayern and Germany as Lahm never looked comfortable in midfield in my opinion.

Andersonisgod

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Proved how wrong the whole experiment was with both Bayern and Germany as Lahm never looked comfortable in midfield in my opinion.

Incorrect, I'd nearly say wildly incorrect. As I said, Guardiola felt one of the reasons why lost to Madrid was because he didn't keep Lahm in midfield. That's not my analysis, that's not even the analysis of a sports journalist or a pundit, that's the analysis of one of the most successful coach in Barcelona's history.

astonaidan

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Could I run through these posts? Absolutely. Will I? Absolutely not, when words are put in my mouth, for example somebody on here claiming that I said Pep deserves all the credit for Germany's World Cup win when I can find a quote of me saying that it'd be ludicrous to even suggest he deserves 50% credit, and when it's abundantly clear that for all of the comments and "opinions" I am more than certain that the posters providing them don't watch Spanish football, they don't watch German football, they haven't read any of the books on Pep, or any books of Germany's change in approach to developing players. Therefore it's pointless because, as seen with this comment:

"Philip Lahm: pound for pound one of the best of the full-backs of the modern era, was well established before Pep arrived. If anything, his deployment in centre-mid on occasion by Pep has unsettled their defence and stunted their progression in the CL."

It's a debate not worth having. I don't want to say it's like fighting ignorance because I don't believe it is ignorance or that there is any malice, it's just a lack of knowledge on a particular subject. If I want to take part in a debate where one side has knowledge and the other doesn't I can talk to any number of animals of inanimate objects, the result will be the same. By the way, if you're wondering what the problem with that post is, it's that one of the main things things that Pep put the heavy defeat to Madrid down to was not trusting his instinct (as he had done all season) to continue with Lahm in midfield, that he switched him to full back he felt ultimately cost Munich in relinquishing their control of the game. That fun little fact comes courtesy of the book Herr Pep, a fantastic insight into an incredible football mind and a true force of nature, you should probably give it a read.

Lol....just lol, thats all I can say anymore about your nonsense. Ill let you get back to your crayons, you havent a clue

Andersonisgod

astonaidan wrote: »

Lol....just lol, thats all I can say anymore about your nonsense. Ill let you get back to your crayons, you havent a clue

Educate me. I mean seriously, educate me, go ahead. Give me any indication that you have the slightest idea what you are talking about, instead of coming onto a thread, posting something to the effect of "haha you're stupid" and leaving again. What do you know? I mean, there's been so many posts on this thread, so many words spoken and I've yet to see you express an opinion that indicates that you have any kind of knowledge of Pep Guardiola, Spanish football, German football or even just football. Infact the only thing you seem interested with in this thread is me. I'm an interesting guy but if you wish to speak to me just private message me, instead of posting, what you ironically call, "nonsense".

SlickRic

And if you believe Munich got hammered because Lahm didn't play CM, and you believe that to be true simply because Pep may claim it, then you really need to check yourself.

Andersonisgod

SlickRic wrote: »

And if you believe Munich got hammered because Lahm didn't play CM, and you believe that to be true simply because Pep may claim it, then you really need to check yourself.

Because that's what I said. Show me where I said that's the only reason. Pep absolutely believes it was a factor and I tend to trust the opinions of Pep Guardiola slightly more than SlickRic when it comes to tactical opinions and game analysis.

Andersonisgod

Andersonisgod wrote: »

An exception to the rule. I mean this is a country where clubs actually willingly employee the likes of Pulis, Allardyce, Pardew ect. all coaches who the English media always seem very ready to praise. However my point was made with a more historical view in mind.

Bit harsh on Pardew, who has Palace playing nice football.

The English media praise Allardyce and Pulis for being effective, not sure they have ever praised either for their brand of football.

SlickRic

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Because that's what I said. Show me where I said that's the only reason. Pep absolutely believes it was a factor and I tend to trust the opinions of Pep Guardiola slightly more than SlickRic when it comes to tactical opinions and game analysis.

Where did I say that you said it was the ONLY reason? You said that he said it was the main reason, which just seems a silly assertion by Pep tbh.

Just because he says it doesn't mean it's true. Blaming the defeat in the main to 'not trusting his instincts' just sounds like self-righteous twaddle. It basically translates to 'if I'd done what I thought was right, what I had originally innovated in putting Lahm in midfield, then we'd have won'. It smells of him trying to make out he's right even when he gets beaten. It doesn't paint him in a good light at all.

Mushy

Ancelloti taking over Munich next then.

astonaidan

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Educate me. I mean seriously, educate me, go ahead. Give me any indication that you have the slightest idea what you are talking about, instead of coming onto a thread, posting something to the effect of "haha you're stupid" and leaving again. What do you know? I mean, there's been so many posts on this thread, so many words spoken and I've yet to see you express an opinion that indicates that you have any kind of knowledge of Pep Guardiola, Spanish football, German football or even just football. Infact the only thing you seem interested with in this thread is me. I'm an interesting guy but if you wish to speak to me just private message me, instead of posting, what you ironically call, "nonsense".

Ive plenty of times gave reasons, you ignored them all, like you have with everyone elses and went on rants about Pep, being the deciding factor of football full stop, Im pretty confident I watch more German football than you, Im actually pretty confident you just started watching it when Pep moved their, you are the definition of sheep fan, blindly following the flock, not a preacher showing everyone how good he is, which lets be fair most think anyways. You are the one my friend that has actually yet to show you have a clue about football, Im sorry I was the one that had to tell you, it should really have been your parents :pac:

Andersonisgod

SlickRic wrote: »

Where did I say that you said it was the ONLY reason? You said that he said it was the main reason, which just seems a silly assertion by Pep tbh.

Just because he says it doesn't mean it's true. Blaming the defeat in the main to 'not trusting his instincts' just sounds like self-righteous twaddle. It basically translates to 'if I'd done what I thought was right, what I had originally innovated in putting Lahm in midfield, then we'd have won'. It smells of him trying to make out he's right even when he gets beaten. It doesn't paint him in a good light at all.

I don't even remember saying it was the MAIN reason, I said that Pep believed it to be a factor in why his team lost control of the game, it wasn't the only factor.

You do realise that this wasn't some major announcement he made to the press post game, as though it were a bombshell, it's something he said to his staff behind closed doors, in private. Peranau was shadowing him and picked up on it, which is literally how that boom works, Peranau following Pep and picking up on things, broken up occasionally by Pep speaking directly to Peranau. The man's ego isn't that frail, he openly admits he got that tie wrong and the Lahm thing was a factor in that. I'd also say, though he may not say it himself, it was his first season and Bayern and he was only at the beginning of trying to change the team's entire philosophy in how they play, their positioning and even how they think about the game.

Andersonisgod

astonaidan wrote: »

Ive plenty of times gave reasons, you ignored them all, like you have with everyone elses and went on rants about Pep, being the deciding factor of football full stop, Im pretty confident I watch more German football than you, Im actually pretty confident you just started watching it when Pep moved their, you are the definition of sheep fan, blindly following the flock, not a preacher showing everyone how good he is, which lets be fair most think anyways. You are the one my friend that has actually yet to show you have a clue about football, Im sorry I was the one that had to tell you, it should really have been your parents :pac:

Where? I'm not being funny and I don't mean to sound ignorant but where are these reasons? The few football opinions you've offered up, during those few times you weren't overly focused on me, the opinions you've offered on Pep, Spanish football and the German national team all sound like they were formed having skimmed over a few Daily Mail and Daily Mirror articles. There's no depth, no context and no explanation for anything you post. You are the type of fan whose seen the odd Clasico, watched Barcelona when they play English teams and now you think you can sit here and lecture me about Pep, to steal a phrase, jog on mate.

deaddonkey15

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Incorrect, I'd nearly say wildly incorrect. As I said, Guardiola felt one of the reasons why lost to Madrid was because he didn't keep Lahm in midfield. That's not my analysis, that's not even the analysis of a sports journalist or a pundit, that's the analysis of one of the most successful coach in Barcelona's history.

Could he not have moved him into midfield at some stage during 1 of the 2 games against Real Madrid, or is he just an expert in hindsight? Madrid probably would have hammered them anyway, What was Pep's excuse for getting schooled by Barcelona last year? The one side he should know better than anyone else and he hadn't a clue.

astonaidan

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Where? I'm not being funny and I don't mean to sound ignorant but where are these reasons? The few football opinions you've offered up, during those few times you weren't overly focused on me, the opinions you've offered on Pep, Spanish football and the German national team all sound like they were formed having skimmed over a few Daily Mail and Daily Mirror articles. There's no depth, no context and no explanation for anything you post. You are the type of fan whose seen the odd Clasico, watched Barcelona when they play English teams and now you think you can sit here and lecture me about Pep, to steal a phrase, jog on mate.

hahaha ok cool story, so pretty much what you have just done is "I know you are but what am I"
Brilliant retort sir, you have bested me, I concur you are the God of knowledge, your knowledge which you have proven countless times as gospel of football.

Well this excluding the fact Ive asked you many times to show me proof to back up your outlandish statements as have many others, alas it was not to be, you have shown me the understanding of "empty vessels make the most noise"

Jelle1880

Always assumed it was just the papers making up stuff, but with it now being made official that he's leaving...

I think it's fair to say he'll be off to City ? Ancelotti to Bayern is exciting though.

Andersonisgod

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Could he not have moved him into midfield at some stage during 1 of the 2 games against Real Madrid, or is he just an expert in hindsight? Madrid probably would have hammered them anyway, What was Pep's excuse for getting schooled by Barcelona last year? The one side he should know better than anyone else and he hadn't a clue.

Again, am I Pep Guardiola? No, I haven't got 2 Champions Leagues, 3 La Liga titles, 2 Copa Del Rey's, 2 FIFA World Club Cups, 2 Don Balon awards, 4 La Liga Coach of the Year awards, 3 Onze d'Or coach of the year awards and I wasn't the heartbeat of the Barcelona Dream Team under the tutelage of Cruyff, so unfortunately I can't put myself into his shoes and give an informed opinion on why Pep did what he did in that exact moment.

I can say that he set up his team as best he could against Barcelona last season, Pep is a special coach but this is a special Barcelona team, with probably the best forward line in the history of football, a forward line that contains the greatest footballer ever at his absolute peak. It probably didn't help that Pep's side was again hit by injuries to key players, as most know, there wasn't any real pace or a true winger available to him. He rectified that this summer with a couple of excellent signings in Douglas Costa and Coman.

Jelle1880

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Always assumed it was just the papers making up stuff, but with it now being made official that he's leaving...

I think it's fair to say he'll be off to City ? Ancelotti to Bayern is exciting though.

I really don't think it's a done deal.
What if city win the league?
A cup?
Progress to the late stages of the champions league?
Pellegrini must be pissed off because its not like he's doing anything wrong at the moment

Andersonisgod

astonaidan wrote: »

hahaha ok cool story, so pretty much what you have just done is "I know you are but what am I"
Brilliant retort sir, you have bested me, I concur you are the God of knowledge, your knowledge which you have proven countless times as gospel of football.

Well this excluding the fact Ive asked you many times to show me proof to back up your outlandish statements as have many others, alas it was not to be, you have shown me the understanding of "empty vessels make the most noise"

This is pointless. I genuinely had a conversation with a 6 year old that followed the same pattern as this conversation, but he was 6 so I was a bit more understanding and kind to him. Where? Where's the proof. Reference a single article, book, game, anything to back up anything you say. I know you can't because, as I said earlier, you haven't a clue because you don't follow Spanish football, because you haven't followed Pep's career. I can put together an argument and actually back it up, I can back up practically anything I've said in this thread either through a reference or with a cohesive argument that has been formed through research. Do you know how I can do that? Because I've actually followed his career, because I actually watch games, because I actually go out and read articles and books on the subject. When someone asks me about Pep's influence on football as Barcelona coach, I can give an informed opinion. When someone asks me what challenges Pep faced at Bayern, I can give an informed opinion. When someone asks me what influence has Pep's work had at Bayern and in Germany and football as a whole I can give an informed opinion. All you've done is come on to a thread where I've given a bloody tonne of information, put your fingers in your ear and said "nah nah nah you're stupid nah nah nah" again, the 6 year old may have done that exact same thing, but he's 6 and probably can't navigate Boards.

For fun, here's another reference, an article that I came across this morning on my Twitter timelinehttp://whitehouseaddress.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/universality-blueprint-for-soccer-new.html

It actually discusses many of the things that I've brought up on this thread. The author is also able to provide an informed opinion on all matters he brings up in the article, from the concept of Universality and how it is the way of the future, Pep being at the forefront of that footballing philosophy, significance of his appointment as Barcelona coach, what he's brought to Bayern Munich, changes he's made at Bayern Munich, influence on German football and (yes!) the German national team, influence on football as a whole and the changing roles of Lahm and Alaba, it's all in there. Very interesting read, and it's obvious that the author (who has also written a couple of books) is well informed and not just rattling off lowest common denominator Daily Mail articles.

Andersonisgod

M!Ck^ wrote: »

I really don't think it's a done deal.
What if city win the league?
A cup?
Progress to the late stages of the champions league?
Pellegrini must be pissed off because its not like he's doing anything wrong at the moment

Pellegrini has said that he thinks Pep should succeed him at Man City.

Dirty Dingus McGee

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Again, am I Pep Guardiola? No, I haven't got 2 Champions Leagues, 3 La Liga titles, 2 Copa Del Rey's, 2 FIFA World Club Cups, 2 Don Balon awards, 4 La Liga Coach of the Year awards, 3 Onze d'Or coach of the year awards and I wasn't the heartbeat of the Barcelona Dream Team under the tutelage of Cruyff, so unfortunately I can't put myself into his shoes and give an informed opinion on why Pep did what he did in that exact moment.

I can say that he set up his team as best he could against Barcelona last season, Pep is a special coach but this is a special Barcelona team, with probably the best forward line in the history of football, a forward line that contains the greatest footballer ever at his absolute peak. It probably didn't help that Pep's side was again hit by injuries to key players, as most know, there wasn't any real pace or a true winger available to him. He rectified that this summer with a couple of excellent signings in Douglas Costa and Coman.

Sure you don't know exactly why he did what he did but yet you use his quotes to back up your argument that pretty much everything he does is right and don't consider that maybe at times what Guardiola thinks is actually wrong and his comments can be interpreted as bull**** like comments from a lot of managers.


It probably didn't help that he decided to play a really high line in the opening stages of the first leg against the 3 best players in the world.Only for Neuer and poor finishing from Barca that game would have been over after 20 minutes.

Andersonisgod

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Pellegrini has said that he thinks Pep should succeed him at Man City.

Yea but when??

It's not like he's said at the end of the season

Whens his current contract for city up?

Andersonisgod

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Sure you don't know exactly why he did what he did but yet you use his quotes to back up your argument that pretty much everything he does is right and don't consider that maybe at times what Guardiola thinks is actually wrong and his comments can be interpreted as bull**** like comments from a lot of managers.


It probably didn't help that he decided to play a really high line in the opening stages of the first leg against the 3 best players in the world.Only for Neuer and poor finishing from Barca that game would have been over after 20 minutes.

Does anybody on this thread, other than me, actually read? It wasn't a comment for public consumption! It wasn't Pep going into the press room and saying "look lads, if Lahm had of been in midfield things would have been different." It was a conversation he had with his own coaching staff, why in the name of God would he lie about game analysis to his own coaching staff (!) how utterly mental would that be.

Yes he did, the hope being to cut off the service to the front three, believing that his defenders may be good enough in 1 vs 1 situations to cope with a Barcelona forward line feeding off bad service (assuming the press was effective). Pep probably wouldn't say it publicly (he's got far too much class) but his actions in the Summer by buying those 2 pacey wingers, shows where he thought the problem was in that game and really he's not wrong, Bayern's attack (even though they did perform better in the second leg) wasn't what it should have been.

Dirty Dingus McGee

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Does anybody on this thread, other than me, actually read? It wasn't a comment for public consumption! It wasn't Pep going into the press room and saying "look lads, if Lahm had of been in midfield things would have been different." It was a conversation he had with his own coaching staff, why in the name of God would he lie about game analysis to his own coaching staff (!) how utterly mental would that be.

Yes he did, the hope being to cut off the service to the front three, believing that his defenders may be good enough in 1 vs 1 situations to cope with a Barcelona forward line feeding off bad service (assuming the press was effective). Pep probably wouldn't say it publicly (he's got far too much class) but his actions in the Summer by buying those 2 pacey wingers, shows where he thought the problem was in that game and really he's not wrong, Bayern's attack (even though they did perform better in the second leg) wasn't what it should have been.

I also said " maybe at times what Guardiola thinks is actually wrong "

Andersonisgod

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Yea but when??

It's not like he's said at the end of the season

Whens his current contract for city up?

Here's the article I read it in.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/manuel-pellegrini-pep-guardiola-should-10627558

To be fair to Pellegrini he is a pretty classy character himself, a real gentleman. I do think though that his time at City is probably up, he's brought them forward but they've hit a wall.

The article says his contract is up in 2017.

Pelligrini would be a good fit for Utd. Doubt he'd go there from city though.

Maybe he'll go to Chelsea.

Andersonisgod

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

I also said " maybe at times what Guardiola thinks is actually wrong "

Like I said, we can't be sure what Guardiola thinks all of the time. There's this thought process where, if Pep plays Lahm in central midfield 3 games in a row then Lahm is now a central midfielder forever in Pep's eyes. It's this idea of "labeling" a player, putting him in a box and saying "that's it, that's what you are" and that's exactly what Pep is not about. As described quite nicely in that article earlier, he's all about universality, about players being able to play anywhere on the pitch based on what situation they are in. As I said earlier in this thread, Lahm has been used at times as a central midfielder, the pivot player, an auxilary winger, as a centre back in a 3 man defence ect. it's not a case of "Lahm is useless in midfield" but, I suppose a kind of horses for courses type thing where each game is different and each player brings different qualities to different positions.

astonaidan

Andersonisgod wrote: »

This is pointless. I genuinely had a conversation with a 6 year old that followed the same pattern as this conversation, but he was 6 so I was a bit more understanding and kind to him. Where? Where's the proof. Reference a single article, book, game, anything to back up anything you say. I know you can't because, as I said earlier, you haven't a clue because you don't follow Spanish football, because you haven't followed Pep's career. I can put together an argument and actually back it up, I can back up practically anything I've said in this thread either through a reference or with a cohesive argument that has been formed through research. Do you know how I can do that? Because I've actually followed his career, because I actually watch games, because I actually go out and read articles and books on the subject. When someone asks me about Pep's influence on football as Barcelona coach, I can give an informed opinion. When someone asks me what challenges Pep faced at Bayern, I can give an informed opinion. When someone asks me what influence has Pep's work had at Bayern and in Germany and football as a whole I can give an informed opinion. All you've done is come on to a thread where I've given a bloody tonne of information, put your fingers in your ear and said "nah nah nah you're stupid nah nah nah" again, the 6 year old may have done that exact same thing, but he's 6 and probably can't navigate Boards.

For fun, here's another reference, an article that I came across this morning on my Twitter timelinehttp://whitehouseaddress.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/universality-blueprint-for-soccer-new.html

It actually discusses many of the things that I've brought up on this thread. The author is also able to provide an informed opinion on all matters he brings up in the article, from the concept of Universality and how it is the way of the future, Pep being at the forefront of that footballing philosophy, significance of his appointment as Barcelona coach, what he's brought to Bayern Munich, changes he's made at Bayern Munich, influence on German football and (yes!) the German national team, influence on football as a whole and the changing roles of Lahm and Alaba, it's all in there. Very interesting read, and it's obvious that the author (who has also written a couple of books) is well informed and not just rattling off lowest common denominator Daily Mail articles.

Thats just the thing, you havent actually given any meaningful comments about pep, you are just screaming of nonsense about him, how on earth do you not see this, I really really hope you are taking the piss cause no one can be this blind, otherwise enjoy the flock and being a football hipster

Andersonisgod

astonaidan wrote: »

Thats just the thing, you havent actually given any meaningful comments about pep, you are just screaming of nonsense about him, how on earth do you not see this, I really really hope you are taking the piss cause no one can be this blind, otherwise enjoy the flock and being a football hipster

My head just can't endure this. In practically every comment I've posted on this thread has contained some kind of football argument, some kind of useful content containing facts and opinions backed up by references. All you've done is post words like "stupid" and "football hipster" and you think this makes you cool. By the way, I don't know if you know this but Pep and Bayern Munich are pretty darn mainstream. I've given my argument, a million times over, and, like in my last comment, I've backed up my argument. You haven't given an argument or backed anything up. So now I'm going to ask you questions.

What do you think of Pep? What do you think of Pep's influence at Barcelona? What do you think of how Pep has done at Bayern Munich? What would you say about Pep's influence on German football? What is your opinion of Pep's legacy in the game as it stands? Have you any particular favourite Pep "experiments"? Do you think he will be a success in England? Why? What club will he go to? What club should he go to?

If you think it's unfair that you should have to answer all of those, I have done exactly that in this thread, so enjoy that.

Andersonisgod

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Here's the article I read it in.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/manuel-pellegrini-pep-guardiola-should-10627558

To be fair to Pellegrini he is a pretty classy character himself, a real gentleman. I do think though that his time at City is probably up, he's brought them forward but they've hit a wall.

The article says his contract is up in 2017.

Need the end of the season to judge him to be honest

astonaidan

Andersonisgod wrote: »

My head just can't endure this. In practically every comment I've posted on this thread has contained some kind of football argument, some kind of useful content containing facts and opinions backed up by references. All you've done is post words like "stupid" and "football hipster" and you think this makes you cool. By the way, I don't know if you know this but Pep and Bayern Munich are pretty darn mainstream. I've given my argument, a million times over, and, like in my last comment, I've backed up my argument. You haven't given an argument or backed anything up. So now I'm going to ask you questions.

What do you think of Pep? What do you think of Pep's influence at Barcelona? What do you think of how Pep has done at Bayern Munich? What would you say about Pep's influence on German football? What is your opinion of Pep's legacy in the game as it stands? Have you any particular favourite Pep "experiments"? Do you think he will be a success in England? Why? What club will he go to? What club should he go to?

If you think it's unfair that you should have to answer all of those, I have done exactly that in this thread, so enjoy that.

I like Pep, saying that he is just as arrogant as any top manager including the likes of Mourniho and Fergie, modestly gets you nowhere
Peps influence on Barcelona is over hyped, he brought in possession, efficent football but not magical football, impressive yes.
Pep has done very little at Bayern, anyone can see that he got a giant to win the league and nothing else, the fans are disengaged from them, they dont enjoy it and once Carlo comes in it will be gone leaving no legacy for the club so a failure.
Peps influence on German football is nothing, none of the other teams try copy him, the national team doesnt play like him, hes brought no players through to club or country.
Peps legacy is hes a big club manager a successful one yes, but a manager who has each time only managed the biggest club in the league
My fav Pep experiment, moving Messi from the wing was a masterstroke, but it also showed that he was easily bullied, because Messi demanded it, so not sure does he deserve the kudos.
Hed be a success in England at city or Arsenal, hed fail at the other clubs. Arsenal are known for patience to get it right and possession, at city he would just do what he did in Germany and Spain and have all the best players.
I think he will go to City, I think he should go to Milan, where they are big enough to attract players for him, a lot of talented youngsters and bad enough that they wouldnt demand a title in first couple of years, just progression
And with that Im out,

Andersonisgod

astonaidan wrote: »

I like Pep, saying that he is just as arrogant as any top manager including the likes of Mourniho and Fergie, modestly gets you nowhere
Peps influence on Barcelona is over hyped, he brought in possession, efficent football but not magical football, impressive yes.
Pep has done very little at Bayern, anyone can see that he got a giant to win the league and nothing else, the fans are disengaged from them, they dont enjoy it and once Carlo comes in it will be gone leaving no legacy for the club so a failure.
Peps influence on German football is nothing, none of the other teams try copy him, the national team doesnt play like him, hes brought no players through to club or country.
Peps legacy is hes a big club manager a successful one yes, but a manager who has each time only managed the biggest club in the league
My fav Pep experiment, moving Messi from the wing was a masterstroke, but it also showed that he was easily bullied, because Messi demanded it, so not sure does he deserve the kudos.
Hed be a success in England at city or Arsenal, hed fail at the other clubs. Arsenal are known for patience to get it right and possession, at city he would just do what he did in Germany and Spain and have all the best players.
I think he will go to City, I think he should go to Milan, where they are big enough to attract players for him, a lot of talented youngsters and bad enough that they wouldnt demand a title in first couple of years, just progression
And with that Im out,

What do you mean you're out. This is probably the first football related post you've made on this thread, don't leave after posting it, at least now there's a basis to engage in a proper debate that goes beyond "you're stupid." Do I agree with many of the points you made? No, however at least it's a football opinion and that's better than what you were posting before so lets build on that right now.

I think many would argue that he is not anywhere close to being as volatile as either of those two managers that you referenced, especially Mourinho who has left a toxic atmosphere in the last two clubs he's been a coach at and a lot of that has to do with his own arrogance. Pep, while very self assured in his beliefs, rarely comes across as arrogant in public at least.

What do you base that opinion on? He took over a team that, the season before had finished 17 points behind Real Madrid, that was clearly on a downward slope and the next season he finished as a treble winner, the most successful season in Barcelona's history at that point. At Barcelona he changed not only the team (both in terms of personnel and style) but he changed world football, Barcelona became the reference point for all other teams. I would actually argue that his reign at Barcelona is up there with Michels at Ajax and Barcelona, Cruyff's at Barcelona and Sacchi's at Milan in terms of important managerial runs that changed football. (note, my basis for that is not successful but influential). Tiki taka became the dominant form of football under Pep, that's not to mention his impact on players like Xavi, Iniesta, Messi, Busquets ect.

As the article which I pasted to you earlier states, Pep's influence at Bayern has been pretty massive. I believe the only people you could think otherwise are those who only look at a league table at the end of each season and not how they play each week. The top brass at Bayern glow in their appraisal of Pep and the work he has done, he has made Bayern a reference point for a certain brand of football, and I believe that, in another article I referenced, you can see the difference in stats in terms of how they play (if you are more into stats), but really you shouldn't need those, all you need do is watch them then watch how they played under Heynckes. Two entirely different styles, while Heynckes had an excellent, if unexpected, final season, Pep's brand of football is more sustainable, more lasting over the long term. What is Pep's legacy at Bayern? Impossible to tell yet, it's too soon, he hasn't even left yet but his impact at Bayern and on German football in general is undeniable.

He's used younger players from time to time but it's not so much a matter of bringing players through (it's a different situation to the one at Barcelona where he took over a team that needed an overhaul, at Bayern he took over established European champions) but he's developed those players. Under Pep, Neuer, Boateng, Lahm, Alaba, Martinez, Thiago, Muller have come on so much and become more complete and (here comes that word again) universal players than they ever were and that's translated to the German national team through Bayern's players. I think you will find that Joachim Low, German manager, Lothar Matthaus and Matthias Sammer would all disagree with you, as well as some notable journalists and authors who follow German football. Their transformation from a counter attacking side in 2010 to a possession based side in 2014 has been remarkable, and was certainly aided by Pep's arrival, afterall how could it not when you consider the amount of work Pep puts in on the training ground to getting every detail just right, the man is famous for his obsession for perfection.

Yes Pep has proven himself to be a big club manager. I would say, he did actually win the Spanish 4th division with Barca B but why would he go to a smaller club when every top club in European football would welcome him with open arms. He's earned that through the ridiculous amount of work and effort he puts in to each job. I personally believe that it would be wrong if he went to a smaller club, Pep is an important figure in the modern game, he's the leader of a new school of coaches, an influential coach who is capable of doing great things. The man loves working with great players and truly great players love working with Pep, going to a small club denies many players the opportunity and deprives us of seeing Pep's philosophy reach its maximum potential. That's just my opinion by the way.
Messi had played centrally at a younger age, though I'm not sure where you've gotten this idea that Pep was bullied into playing him there and I will need a source because the story that most reputable journalists (and indeed Pep and the Barcelona players themselves tell) is that this was a Pep/Tito masterstroke in allowing Messi to play as a false 9 that completely befuddled the Real Madrid centre backs (Pep famously unleashed this hidden weapon in the Clasico)
I agree City are the best team in England but it's not as though they are running away with the league and, the two times they've won it, it's been extremely close. Lets not try to say that Pep is going to a club that's in a one horse race for the league title each season because that is blatantly untrue.

That's fair enough, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. Personally I'd rather he also didn't go to England for reasons previously explained, but all I'll say is if he chose Milan you can bet that there would be quite a number of people on here saying "he's afraid to come to England, he's chosen the east option" ect.

Andersonisgod

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Need the end of the season to judge him to be honest

To an extent yes but this looks like a City side that has stagnated (though I still expect them to win the league) they've not kicked on and developed in perhaps the same way that PSG are on the verge of doing.