Pep on the way to England

Andersonisgod

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

Hopefully this works. Quite interesting as Raf usually knows his stuff

https://gyazo.com/84d08240f69cc82b3c9c6466f2e35dd5

I've literally been saying something to the effect of this for 17 pages. Though tbf Rafael Hernandez is a very good source and truly knows his stuff.

Pro. F

I do think Pep improves his players a lot. Not just improves how they play in the system - which is what any good manager does - but he improves their technique and understanding of the game a lot too. Pep spends lots of time focusing on those fundamental improvements. Which is strange, because the teams he produces are also among the fittest and most well organised.

Wenger is kind of similar imo as his teams always look to me like they've spent lots of time improving their technique. But they fall short in comparison when it comes to the organisation and physicality.

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

Pretty much just skipped the last 2 pages there so forgive me if I'm repeating what someone else has said, I just want to give my own 2 cents on Pep.

What he did at Barcelona was truly remarkable. Were all the trophies he won the remarkable bit about that job? No, it was the manner in which he did it. In 2011 I was never so confident in a team beating everyone they came up against than that Barca team. My posting history from that time will back that up, along with a certain wager I placed with a very well-known poster. That team was absolutely incredible, and should've been the first team to retain CL in 2010 only for a few refereeing decisions and bit of extraordinary good luck from Mourinho's Inter side. Easily the best club side that I can remember, and by some distance.
Could Mourinho, Ancelotti, Heyncks, Klopp, Ferguson, etc. have achieved something similar in terms of trophies won? More than likely. Would either of those managers have made that Barcelona team into arguably the greatest club side of all time? Highly unlikely.

Now onto his time at Bayern. He inherited a remarkably strong squad, no denying that. What he is doing in the league with them is something is extraordinary. While they do have much more resources than any other team in Germany, I don't ever recall another Bayern team being so consistently dominant. He turned the league into a 1 horse race, and while winning 3 league titles on the trot isn't exactly remarkable, the manner in which he is doing it is.
Could Mourinho, Ancelotti, Heyncks, Klopp, Ferguson, etc. have achieved something similar in terms of trophies won? Again, more than likely, but not in the all-conquering manner in which Pep is doing it in. To put it another way, he is absolutely make shíte of a league that was competitive up until recently.

As for his CL endeavours with Bayern, in his first year there, he failed. No denying that. That being said, it is notoriously difficult to retain the CL, especially when the squad is inheriting a new manager and new system of playing. But yes, he failed, and that's the bottom line.
In his second year his squad was riddled with injuries. They had no recognised winger as far as I can recall and played 4 CM. They were also up against the greatest front line ever assembled, containing, arguably, 3 of the 4 best players in the world, one of them being the greatest of all time. I think for any team to take down that Barca front 3 is going to require the performance of their career coupled with extraordinary luck. Do I think he failed in his second year in the CL? No, I don't. I think had he beaten that Barcelona team it would've ranked up there amongst the greatest tactical masterclasses ever.
This CL season will tell a lot. I don't think he necessarily needs to win it, but he needs to at the very least get beaten narrowly by eventual winners. To win the CL not only takes remarkable talent, but also requires a little bit of luck.

Basically to sum up, do I think he has done a remarkable job in terms of the trophies he's won given the talent at his disposal? Not remarkable, but very good all the same.
Do I think he's done a remarkable job all things considered? Yes, what he's done aside from the trophies won has been nothing short of phenomenal, and I don't think there's another person alive who could've done what he did. In particular, his Barca team from 08/09-10/11 was absolutely incredible.


If the hypothetical situation arose where every club on the planet was managerless, and each club got to chose their manager, I genuinely believe that at least 70% would have Pep as their no. 1 choice. That is why there are a few clubs who seem to be bending over backwards to get him this summer.

Anyway, in a good few years time there'll be a lot of egg over some people's faces, only time will tell what group of people that will be. It is my personal opinion that regardless where he goes he will be a resounding success.

LuckyLloyd

The problem here is the ridiculous framing that is attempted around Guardiola. He's clearly an excellent coach who's enjoyed a very successful first few seasons in his managerial career.

- Changed the game? His Barca team got ****ed out of it 7 - 0 by a completely different style the year after he left. Ancelotti will do what Ancelotti does when he gets to Bayern too.

- Best team of all time? Barca won the Champions League within three seasons either side of his reign, and you could argue that Milan sides of earlier vintages were as dominant in Euope.

- Influenced the German WC victory of 2014? Ah here - Germany blooded and battle hardened the core of that side in 2010 and 2012 after a long slow structural build towards that squad.

Because people like AIG are so desperate to make these claims we end up with extremely derivative and frustrating conversation. If he's going to England I think City would be his best move. They've invested heavily in their academy over the past five years and will start to produce a conveyor belt of talent very soon. Their current first team has a base of technically proficient players and they have the flexibility to go hard and heavy into the transfer market. I don't personally buy the 'history of club' argument hugely to be honest when it comes to Guardiola, he plied his trade as a player for Brescia, Al - Ahli and Dorados.

At Bayern he's done just fine. He took over a treble winning squad who's major domestic competition (and CL final opponents of course) imploded over the first two years of his time in Germany. He still has had to win three leagues in a row, and the CL performances have been acceptable - even if they involved very conclusive defeats. To conclude anything other than he's a safe pair of hands if handed a great squad would be incorrect. Whatever job he takes in England will be his toughest challenge to date, but I wouldn't be betting against him winning the league and making the club he ends up at better.

MD1990

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The problem here is the ridiculous framing that is attempted around Guardiola. He's clearly an excellent coach who's enjoyed a very successful first few seasons in his managerial career.

- Changed the game? His Barca team got ****ed out of it 7 - 0 by a completely different style the year after he left. Ancelotti will do what Ancelotti does when he gets to Bayern too.

- Best team of all time? Barca won the Champions League within three seasons either side of his reign, and you could argue that Milan sides of earlier vintages were as dominant in Euope.

- Influenced the German WC victory of 2014? Ah here - Germany blooded and battle hardened the core of that side in 2010 and 2012 after a long slow structural build towards that squad.

Because people like AIG are so desperate to make these claims we end up with extremely derivative and frustrating conversation. If he's going to England I think City would be his best move. They've invested heavily in their academy over the past five years and will start to produce a conveyor belt of talent very soon. Their current first team has a base of technically proficient players and they have the flexibility to go hard and heavy into the transfer market. I don't personally buy the 'history of club' argument hugely to be honest when it comes to Guardiola, he plied his trade as a player for Brescia, Al - Ahli and Dorados.

At Bayern he's done just fine. He took over a treble winning squad who's major domestic competition (and CL final opponents of course) imploded over the first two years of his time in Germany. He still has had to win three leagues in a row, and the CL performances have been acceptable - even if they involved very conclusive defeats. To conclude anything other than he's a safe pair of hands if handed a great squad would be incorrect. Whatever job he takes in England will be his toughest challenge to date, but I wouldn't be betting against him winning the league and making the club he ends up at better.

Not a complete different playing style. Not quite Tiki Taka but Bayern was a possesion based team who also pressed high & worked very hard. in 12/13 after Barca no team had more possesion than Bayern.

Dirty Dingus McGee

THFC wrote: »

Pretty much just skipped the last 2 pages there so forgive me if I'm repeating what someone else has said, I just want to give my own 2 cents on Pep.

What he did at Barcelona was truly remarkable. Were all the trophies he won the remarkable bit about that job? No, it was the manner in which he did it. In 2011 I was never so confident in a team beating everyone they came up against than that Barca team. My posting history from that time will back that up, along with a certain wager I placed with a very well-known poster. That team was absolutely incredible, and should've been the first team to retain CL in 2010 only for a few refereeing decisions and bit of extraordinary good luck from Mourinho's Inter side. Easily the best club side that I can remember, and by some distance.
Could Mourinho, Ancelotti, Heyncks, Klopp, Ferguson, etc. have achieved something similar in terms of trophies won? More than likely. Would either of those managers have made that Barcelona team into arguably the greatest club side of all time? Highly unlikely.

Now onto his time at Bayern. He inherited a remarkably strong squad, no denying that. What he is doing in the league with them is something is extraordinary. While they do have much more resources than any other team in Germany, I don't ever recall another Bayern team being so consistently dominant. He turned the league into a 1 horse race, and while winning 3 league titles on the trot isn't exactly remarkable, the manner in which he is doing it is.
Could Mourinho, Ancelotti, Heyncks, Klopp, Ferguson, etc. have achieved something similar in terms of trophies won? Again, more than likely, but not in the all-conquering manner in which Pep is doing it in. To put it another way, he is absolutely make shíte of a league that was competitive up until recently.

As for his CL endeavours with Bayern, in his first year there, he failed. No denying that. That being said, it is notoriously difficult to retain the CL, especially when the squad is inheriting a new manager and new system of playing. But yes, he failed, and that's the bottom line.
In his second year his squad was riddled with injuries. They had no recognised winger as far as I can recall and played 4 CM. They were also up against the greatest front line ever assembled, containing, arguably, 3 of the 4 best players in the world, one of them being the greatest of all time. I think for any team to take down that Barca front 3 is going to require the performance of their career coupled with extraordinary luck. Do I think he failed in his second year in the CL? No, I don't. I think had he beaten that Barcelona team it would've ranked up there amongst the greatest tactical masterclasses ever.
This CL season will tell a lot. I don't think he necessarily needs to win it, but he needs to at the very least get beaten narrowly by eventual winners. To win the CL not only takes remarkable talent, but also requires a little bit of luck.

Basically to sum up, do I think he has done a remarkable job in terms of the trophies he's won given the talent at his disposal? Not remarkable, but very good all the same.
Do I think he's done a remarkable job all things considered? Yes, what he's done aside from the trophies won has been nothing short of phenomenal, and I don't think there's another person alive who could've done what he did. In particular, his Barca team from 08/09-10/11 was absolutely incredible.


If the hypothetical situation arose where every club on the planet was managerless, and each club got to chose their manager, I genuinely believe that at least 70% would have Pep as their no. 1 choice. That is why there are a few clubs who seem to be bending over backwards to get him this summer.

Anyway, in a good few years time there'll be a lot of egg over some people's faces, only time will tell what group of people that will be. It is my personal opinion that regardless where he goes he will be a resounding success.

They wouldn't have won in 2009 without a large degree of luck in the tie against Chelsea and from what I remember Inter were the dominant team in the first leg in the semi final in 2010.

deaddonkey15

THFC wrote: »

What he did at Barcelona was truly remarkable. Were all the trophies he won the remarkable bit about that job? No, it was the manner in which he did it. In 2011 I was never so confident in a team beating everyone they came up against than that Barca team. My posting history from that time will back that up, along with a certain wager I placed with a very well-known poster. That team was absolutely incredible, and should've been the first team to retain CL in 2010 only for a few refereeing decisions and bit of extraordinary good luck from Mourinho's Inter side. Easily the best club side that I can remember, and by some distance.
Could Mourinho, Ancelotti, Heyncks, Klopp, Ferguson, etc. have achieved something similar in terms of trophies won? More than likely. Would either of those managers have made that Barcelona team into arguably the greatest club side of all time? Highly unlikely.

If those managers had the players that Pep had at their disposable then it wouldn't be highly unlikely. Ferguson/Ancelotti/Heyncks with peak Iniesta, Xavi, Messi, Pique, Puyol, Alves etc. in their squad? They'd probably have dominated just as much. I personally think that Heyncks' Bayern side that obliterated Barcelona in 2013 was a more impressive footballing side than Guardiola's Barcelona teams. Of course they won't go down in history as they didn't quite match the longevity, but Bayern put on a footballing masterclass in that tie.

THFC wrote: »

Pretty much just skipped the last 2 pages there so forgive me if I'm repeating what someone else has said, I just want to give my own 2 cents on Pep.

Now onto his time at Bayern. He inherited a remarkably strong squad, no denying that. What he is doing in the league with them is something is extraordinary. While they do have much more resources than any other team in Germany, I don't ever recall another Bayern team being so consistently dominant. He turned the league into a 1 horse race, and while winning 3 league titles on the trot isn't exactly remarkable, the manner in which he is doing it is.
Could Mourinho, Ancelotti, Heyncks, Klopp, Ferguson, etc. have achieved something similar in terms of trophies won? Again, more than likely, but not in the all-conquering manner in which Pep is doing it in. To put it another way, he is absolutely make shíte of a league that was competitive up until recently.

Bayern won the league by 25 points prior to Pep's arrival. That's a 1 horse race in my book. He's doing nothing that hasn't been done before with Bayern in Germany.

EuropeanSon

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

They wouldn't have won in 2009 without a large degree of luck in the tie against Chelsea and from what I remember Inter were the dominant team in the first leg in the semi final in 2010.

They absolutely robbed Chelsea in that game, the biggest joke of a refereeing performance I've ever seen.

At the time I was delighted

Hank Scorpio

EuropeanSon wrote: »

They absolutely robbed Chelsea in that game, the biggest joke of a refereeing performance I've ever seen.

At the time I was delighted

Fúcking disgrace tbh :pac:

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

They wouldn't have won in 2009 without a large degree of luck in the tie against Chelsea and from what I remember Inter were the dominant team in the first leg in the semi final in 2010.

Totally agree. I allude to that in the latter part of my post. Every CL title, or the majority of them, come with a little bit (or a lot) of luck. I think it's extraordinary difficult to win a CL without moments on the way where you could've easily lost. Look at the list from 08:

08 United - Terry slip.
09 Barca - 'Scandal of Stamford Bridge.'
10 Inter - An extraordinary 2nd leg at the Camp Nou should've seen them go out, with Bojan iirc incorrectly having a legitimate goal ruled out for offside.
11 Barca - Was it Bendtner who had a glorious chance to win the tie for Arsenal around the 90th minute? Someone did anyway, and they also rode their luck a bit in that 2nd leg vs Real in the semi.
12 Chelsea - Where do I begin?:eek:
13 Bayern - Arsenal nearly pulled off the impossible in the last 16 and Dortmund in the final easily could've been 1 or 2 up by half time.
14 Real - Minute away from losing the final and also rode their luck vs Dortmund.
15 Barca - surprisingly enough can't think of any game they were close to losing. Every game was won by at least 2.

Was just making the point that after winning in 2009 they should've won it again in 2010, but they didn't so it'll be totally forgotten about. Hardly important anyway, just a side note.

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

If those managers had the players that Pep had at their disposable then it wouldn't be highly unlikely. Ferguson/Ancelotti/Heyncks with peak Iniesta, Xavi, Messi, Pique, Puyol, Alves etc. in their squad? They'd probably have dominated just as much. I personally think that Heyncks' Bayern side that obliterated Barcelona in 2013 was a more impressive footballing side than Guardiola's Barcelona teams. Of course they won't go down in history as they didn't quite match the longevity, but Bayern put on a footballing masterclass in that tie.



Bayern won the league by 25 points prior to Pep's arrival. That's a 1 horse race in my book. He's doing nothing that hasn't been done before with Bayern in Germany.

Perhaps it was going in that direction but I don't think they had ever consistently won it by such large margins.

dfx-

Is the peak Iniesta/Messi argument still going? Anyone who watched Barcelona in 07/08 would disagree. They were a shambles culminating in humilation at Madrid.

Henry/Ronaldinho/Deco were disgraceful towards season end in May 08 and a massive split in the dressing room. Inside a year the club won all six trophies. What seems to happen is people are superimposing what players became retrospectively onto that time period. Even still, I very much remember United being favourites for the 08/09 final.

Utopia Parkway

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

Hopefully this works. Quite interesting as Raf usually knows his stuff

https://gyazo.com/84d08240f69cc82b3c9c6466f2e35dd5

That fella is a complete Pep/Barca fanboy though. Has to be taken into account.

Turtwig

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

I personally think that Heyncks' Bayern side that obliterated Barcelona in 2013 was a more impressive footballing side than Guardiola's Barcelona teams.

They weren't. No where near a comparison actually. Barca that season were just not as good after Christmas. No where near it in fact!. The result flattered Bayern. Milan should have eliminated Barca. Real Madrid were humiliating them. Were PSG more ambitious they could have eliminated them. Furthermore Barca philosophy requires a high level of performance and intensity with low errors. If their passing is off they're open for a hiding if a team is willing to take advantage. It was their philosophy and lack of pragmatism that made the scoreline flatter Bayern. Had Arsenal played that Barca side they might have eliminated them just as emphatically.

Don't get me wrong Bayern were a good side, I firmly believe pep's sides of '09-11' would have won. 7 times out of 10 against them. With a draw bEing more likely the other times than a Bayern victory.

LuckyLloyd

MD1990 wrote: »

Not a complete different playing style. Not quite Tiki Taka but Bayern was a possesion based team who also pressed high & worked very hard. in 12/13 after Barca no team had more possesion than Bayern.

Not a style inspired by or dependent on the fact that Guardiola ever coached a game of football though. Bayern were doing their own thing their own way.

LuckyLloyd

dfx- wrote: »

Is the peak Iniesta/Messi argument still going? Anyone who watched Barcelona in 07/08 would disagree. They were a shambles culminating in humilation at Madrid.

Henry/Ronaldinho/Deco were disgraceful towards season end in May 08 and a massive split in the dressing room. Inside a year the club won all six trophies. What seems to happen is people are superimposing what players became retrospectively onto that time period. Even still, I very much remember United being favourites for the 08/09 final.

It was still a team that reached a CL semi final (losing 1 - 0 on aggregate narrowly to the eventual winners) and had won the CL two years prior. There was an abundance of talent there to work with and it's ridiculous to suggest otherwise. It's not like they had missed the CL and been eliminated in the CL group stages or something.

Ferris_Bueller

I agree with a lot of THFCs points above regarding Guardiola, you could argue any good manager would have won all the league titles Pep has won with Barca and Bayern, but the manner in which he did so at Barcelona in particular was spectacular. The greatest club side I've ever seen and I'd be confident in saying they were the greatest club side ever, certainly in my lifetime. Very unlucky not to win 3 CL titles in a row, Mourinho & Inters win over them in the semi final is one of the most memorable football matches I've ever seen and it was a superb performance by Inter to stop Barcelona from winning, probably the best defensive display I can remember, and that's what it took to stop the Barcelona of that era. This isn't all simply because of Guardiola of course, but to say any manager could have achieved it is underplaying his managerial skills.

He has been a success at Bayern, and while he hasn't delivered in Europe yet, he can hardly be called a failure for this reason. I don't think there has ever been a manager who would guarantee a team a CL title so to expect Pep to win one for Bayern is unrealistic. Of course it is their goal and he hasn't done so yet, but it's not as if his Bayern teams have flopped in the CL, as others have said it requires a lot of luck to win a CL title regardless of how good of a side you have.

I'm not a preacher of Guardiola by any means but he has had a phenomenal career to date and to call him a failure at any stage is a lie IMO. I think him going to City next would make the most sense, they have a very good squad as it is and I'm sure they would give him the funds to put his own stamp on things, a PL title would almost be a sure thing, but as with any club the CL is never guaranteed. Man City would definitely be the biggest challenge of his career if he took the job, the Premier League is much more competitive than either the Bundesliga or La Liga.

Dirty Dingus McGee

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

I agree with a lot of THFCs points above regarding Guardiola, you could argue any good manager would have won all the league titles Pep has won with Barca and Bayern, but the manner in which he did so at Barcelona in particular was spectacular. The greatest club side I've ever seen and I'd be confident in saying they were the greatest club side ever, certainly in my lifetime. Very unlucky not to win 3 CL titles in a row, Mourinho & Inters win over them in the semi final is one of the most memorable football matches I've ever seen and it was a superb performance by Inter to stop Barcelona from winning, probably the best defensive display I can remember, and that's what it took to stop the Barcelona of that era. This isn't all simply because of Guardiola of course, but to say any manager could have achieved it is underplaying his managerial skills.

He has been a success at Bayern, and while he hasn't delivered in Europe yet, he can hardly be called a failure for this reason. I don't think there has ever been a manager who would guarantee a team a CL title so to expect Pep to win one for Bayern is unrealistic. Of course it is their goal and he hasn't done so yet, but it's not as if his Bayern teams have flopped in the CL, as others have said it requires a lot of luck to win a CL title regardless of how good of a side you have.

I'm not a preacher of Guardiola by any means but he has had a phenomenal career to date and to call him a failure at any stage is a lie IMO. I think him going to City next would make the most sense, they have a very good squad as it is and I'm sure they would give him the funds to put his own stamp on things, a PL title would almost be a sure thing, but as with any club the CL is never guaranteed. Man City would definitely be the biggest challenge of his career if he took the job, the Premier League is much more competitive than either the Bundesliga or La Liga.

These days for the elite clubs like Bayern,Barca,Real Madrid,Juventus,Man City,Chelsea,PSG etc the league title is now really only a stepping stone to the main prize which is the Champions League.None of the major leagues in Europe are very competitive anymore so the only real challenge these types of clubs have is winning the champions league.

Ferris_Bueller

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

These days for the elite clubs like Bayern,Barca,Real Madrid,Juventus,Man City,Chelsea,PSG etc the league title is now really only a stepping stone to the main prize which is the Champions League.None of the major leagues in Europe are very competitive anymore so the only real challenge these types of clubs have is winning the champions league.

I agree but as I said no manager in history would guarantee any side a Champions League title, as the CL is too competitive. Saying Pep is a failure for not winning a CL is unfair because that's implying he was expecting to win one. If he has of gotten knocked out in the group stage or last 16 then I'd agree he was a failure, but both years he has gotten knocked out in the semis by the eventual winners - hard to call the man a failure based on that IMO.

average_runner

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

I agree but as I said no manager in history would guarantee any side a Champions League title, as the CL is too competitive. Saying Pep is a failure for not winning a CL is unfair because that's implying he was expecting to win one. If he has of gotten knocked out in the group stage or last 16 then I'd agree he was a failure, but both years he has gotten knocked out in the semis by the eventual winners - hard to call the man a failure based on that IMO.

I wouldn't judge pep on the cl, but he took over a bayern side that played exciting football and he turned them into a boring passing team.

Dirty Dingus McGee

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

These days for the elite clubs like Bayern,Barca,Real Madrid,Juventus,Man City,Chelsea,PSG etc the league title is now really only a stepping stone to the main prize which is the Champions League.None of the major leagues in Europe are very competitive anymore so the only real challenge these types of clubs have is winning the champions league.

Yep, 2 leagues in 8 seasons in a league which is usually a 2 horse race.

Andersonisgod

The worst thing I think I ever did on this forum was start this thread because it gave an open forum for opinions like "he took over a bayern side that played exciting football and he turned them into a boring passing team" to actually be unleashed on the masses. Some of the stuff here has been tough to read at times because it is so blatantly wrong and yet, when you call some people on this, they actually get into a debate with you, not only do they get into a debate with you but they are actually convinced that watching a handful of Barcelona and Bayern matches in a season and checking the league table the odd time actually qualifies their opinion as being an informed one, frankly it's all been a bit too much to take for me. If I could I would literally create a list books and articles that I would advise everyone read before commenting on this thread, that's even before I suggest you begin to even watch Pep's teams play each week, let alone talk about them because the extent to which some are out of the loop here is incredible to me. I can't do that, it'd be too much work for me and I have no doubt that nobody will pay attention to it anyway so, for short, here's two articles by heralded pundit and journalist of German football and acclaimed author of the book "Das Reboot" Raphael Honigstein. Read his articles, keep an eye on his Twitter and you'll get some kind of realistic sense of Pep's work at least.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2015/dec/21/farewell-pep-guardiola-bundesliga-bayern-munich

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2015/dec/19/pep-guardiola-bayern-munich-tactical-genius

Dirty Dingus McGee

RoboKlopp wrote: »

Yep, 2 leagues in 8 seasons in a league which is usually a 2 horse race.

That's cause the team they have been up against is pretty brilliant.

Put them in any of the other leagues and they'd probably have won a fair few more.

Dirty Dingus McGee

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

That's cause the team they have been up against is pretty brilliant.

Put them in any of the other leagues and they'd probably have won a fair few more.

Yeah but you said

so the only real challenge these types of clubs have is winning the champions league.

which is clearly wrong.

Dirty Dingus McGee

RoboKlopp wrote: »

Yeah but you said



which is clearly wrong.

Not really.

A 2 or 3 horse race where the 2 or 3 teams are constant (like every major league in Europe these days) isn't a real challenge as the league will be won often enough by these teams regardless of who the specific players or manager is.

If you expand that they've won 3 in 9 years. Real Madrid won the league in 2007-2008 with Bernd Schuster as Manager who has had a fairly undistinguished career as a manger and clearly isn't a great manager.

K-9

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

That's cause the team they have been up against is pretty brilliant.

Put them in any of the other leagues and they'd probably have won a fair few more.

Well Atletico won one of those and are a serious threat to the big 2.

The PL is still competitive even though it has gone back in quality. Really it is just Germany and France that is uncompetitive and that isn't unusual in Germany. Will be interesting to see how Italy pans out this season.

deaddonkey15

Andersonisgod wrote: »

The worst thing I think I ever did on this forum was start this thread because it gave an open forum for opinions like "he took over a bayern side that played exciting football and he turned them into a boring passing team" to actually be unleashed on the masses. Some of the stuff here has been tough to read at times because it is so blatantly wrong and yet, when you call some people on this, they actually get into a debate with you, not only do they get into a debate with you but they are actually convinced that watching a handful of Barcelona and Bayern matches in a season and checking the league table the odd time actually qualifies their opinion as being an informed one, frankly it's all been a bit too much to take for me. If I could I would literally create a list books and articles that I would advise everyone read before commenting on this thread, that's even before I suggest you begin to even watch Pep's teams play each week, let alone talk about them because the extent to which some are out of the loop here is incredible to me. I can't do that, it'd be too much work for me and I have no doubt that nobody will pay attention to it anyway so, for short, here's two articles by heralded pundit and journalist of German football and acclaimed author of the book "Das Reboot" Raphael Honigstein. Read his articles, keep an eye on his Twitter and you'll get some kind of realistic sense of Pep's work at least.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2015/dec/21/farewell-pep-guardiola-bundesliga-bayern-munich

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2015/dec/19/pep-guardiola-bayern-munich-tactical-genius

Don't worry, nobody takes you seriously either.

Andersonisgod

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Don't worry, nobody takes you seriously either.

Shame, I'm one of the few people whose contributed to this topic whose opinion actually carries any weight.

Andersonisgod

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Shame, I'm one of the few people whose contributed to this topic whose opinion actually carries any weight.

Condescending posts don't really carry a huge amount of weight

Andersonisgod

RoboKlopp wrote: »

Condescending posts don't really carry a huge amount of weight

Ye but neither do incorrect statements uttered by people who neither watch Bayern or watched very much of Pep's Barcelona or have read anything about either of them or Pep himself so if it comes down to that or being a tad condescend I know which I'd rather.

Andersonisgod

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Ye but neither do incorrect statements uttered by people who neither watch Bayern or watched very much of Pep's Barcelona or have read anything about either of them or Pep himself so if it comes down to that or being a tad condescend I know which I'd rather.

You can understand why it might irk others though?

Andersonisgod

RoboKlopp wrote: »

You can understand why it might irk others though?

Maybe but I'm irked, I'm very irked. I mean, I've done my best to avoid this thread the last few days because it irks me so much. I realise I created this thread but it is clear that I have created a kind of Frankenstein's monster. I tried to save it, I ran into the burning building with my hose, I tried to put out the fire but the fire is stubborn and doesn't know when to stop so I decided on a different approach, a kind of quarantine approach where I would simply cordon off the madness that is contained in this thread but like a car crash or a cat video I simply had to look and what I saw just ate away at my soul so here I am, back with my hose.

astonaidan

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Shame, I'm one of the few people whose contributed to this topic whose opinion actually carries any weight.

Well this is awkward....... it really doesnt, you give us a laugh:D

Andersonisgod

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Shame, I'm one of the few people whose contributed to this topic whose opinion actually carries any weight.

I won't knock your opinion on Pep or German football.

But it seems your opinion on English football managers is that they are all Neil Warnocks. You are entitled to it, of course, but lumping Pardew and Allardyce together might raise eyebrows.

dfx-

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

It was still a team that reached a CL semi final (losing 1 - 0 on aggregate narrowly to the eventual winners) and had won the CL two years prior. There was an abundance of talent there to work with and it's ridiculous to suggest otherwise. It's not like they had missed the CL and been eliminated in the CL group stages or something.

They also finished 17 points behind Madrid and 10 points behind Villarreal and had to go through the CL qualifiers. Morale was low and form on a downhill run. It was the natural end for the CL winning team. They were on a downward slope and discipline was a mess.

Either way, as some 'illustrious' teams in Europe and especially the EPL are finding, having talent is not enough if the players don't want the manager or don't like his approach, have no confidence in him or can't translate his style into wins. United, City, Madrid, Chelsea, Valencia...

Guardiola is clearly able to translate his ideas to the players at two top level clubs and keep them on his side, two clubs not previously known for patience. He brought the players on, he did not have peak players at his disposal.

sReq | uTeK

He's failed at Bayern in my opinion. Hasn't taken them any further than they already were

gosplan

What's counting hugely against Pep is the incorrect assumption that winning titles with Barca and Bayern isn't a measure of success.

Like anyone could do it.

There seems to be a large side of the debate justifying themselves NOT giving any credit to Pep for being one of the most unique and successful managers ever.

gosplan

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

He's failed at Bayern in my opinion. Hasn't taken them any further than they already were

So basically if a new manager took over at Barca, it would pretty much HAVE to be failure because they most likely wouldn't be going further than a treble or whatever.

I think that's hugely incorrect.

ERG89

gosplan wrote: »

So basically if a new manager took over at Barca, it would pretty much HAVE to be failure because they most likely wouldn't be going further than a treble or whatever.

I think that's hugely incorrect.

More accurate to say he didn't keep them at the level they were before he arrived. 3 champions league final appearances in recent years but they got hammered in Pep's 2 semi final appearances. Winning the Bundesliga with Bayern isn't any achievement now. I don't see how anyone could think it is tbh as it's not competitive for Munich on or off the pitch so you look at their Europe record which has dropped since he took over

sReq | uTeK

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

He's failed at Bayern in my opinion. Hasn't taken them any further than they already were

Winning the league both seasons, one of them a double winning season isn't a failure.

They've fallen short in the champions league but that's a cup competition. They were beaten in the semis on both occasions. That's the way it goes in cup comps, you can be beaten by a better team on the day.


There's plenty of failures out there going by your logic...

gosplan

ERG89 wrote: »

More accurate to say he didn't keep them at the level they were before he arrived. 3 champions league final appearances in recent years but they got hammered in Pep's 2 semi final appearances. Winning the Bundesliga with Bayern isn't any achievement now. I don't see how anyone could think it is tbh as it's not competitive for Munich on or off the pitch so you look at their Europe record which has dropped since he took over

That's my point.

I think that boldest part is wrong and that viewing success/failure as the outcome of the CL last 8 is massively simplistic.

Andersonisgod

astonaidan wrote: »

Well this is awkward....... it really doesnt, you give us a laugh:D

Mate I asked you a few basic questions earlier in this thread, nothing too dramatic, nothing too deep or difficult and the answers you came back with were so basic and poorly conceived that it's obvious to anyone that you are way out of your depth on this thread. In fact the only times you've been comfortable commenting is with comments like the one here, comments where you are addressing Andersonisgod and not Pep Guardiola. Perhaps you are an expert in Andersonisgod (I can assure you that you aren't but perhaps you think you are) but when it comes to Guardiola your knowledge is basic and your opinions carry no weight.

lassykk

SlickRic wrote: »

Shocking that you hate an argument that doesn't shed Pep in a perfect light.

Bayern is possibly the best run football club in the world. They are miles ahead of the rest in terms of personnel and draw (the fact the likes of Gotze and Lewandowski go so easily from the 2nd best team, Dortmund, says an awful lot). The only challenge they have is the Champions League. While he'll have done a good job even of he doesn't win the CL - you can't take league titles and cups away from him, he still has to keep that ticking over - he will have failed in his big challenge. And a semi-final, FYI, is the minimum that Bayern squad should get to. Same as Barcelona. Same as Real Madrid. That is simply a fact of how far ahead they all are as clubs right now.

You talk about Pep being judged by criteria that nobody else would be - that's complete bollocks. What other manager gets to use an argument of 'legacy' or 'identity' when talking about their successes at a club? For ANYONE else in his position, it'd be leagues and Champions Leagues.

There has been a serious amount of what I always hope is trolling and not just delusion/fanboyism in this thread (on both sides of the argument) but the above post to me really hits the nail on the head re Pep's time in Bayern. I'm not surprised it was pretty much ignored! Couldn't be bringing a rational argument to the table.

Someone else hit the nail on the head re the impact on the German squad (next to none) but can't multi quote on my phone

Bounty Hunter

gosplan wrote: »

What's counting hugely against Pep is the incorrect assumption that winning titles with Barca and Bayern isn't a measure of success.

Like anyone could do it.

There seems to be a large side of the debate justifying themselves NOT giving any credit to Pep for being one of the most unique and successful managers ever.

tbh I feel this debate has gone a little too far but it actually started with people agreeing that he is a great manager just that he wasn't worth being called the greatest of a generation until he had done it with a team where although it is an achievement to win things it is not a great surprise.

If that label hadn't been attached to him in the OP I doubt you would have so much debate at this moment just speculation on his next move, which players at City etc would suit / benefit from his arrival, because tbh I can't imagine anyone thinks he is a poor coach. This isn't a rijkaard situation where he was lucky to have such players at his disposal and then when he didn't he failed.

Andersonisgod

lassykk wrote: »

There has been a serious amount of what I always hope is trolling and not just delusion/fanboyism in this thread (on both sides of the argument) but the above post to me really hits the nail on the head re Pep's time in Bayern. I'm not surprised it was pretty much ignored! Couldn't be bringing a rational argument to the table.

Someone else hit the nail on the head re the impact on the German squad (next to none) but can't multi quote on my phone

The reason for a lack of response, other than being slightly preoccupied with replying to like 3 or 4 other people at once, is that trying to explain the difference between a coach like Guardiola and a coach like Ancelotti (which is where that debate would have gone given the last paragraph of it) would take up far too much time and would have riled up far too many people who simply don't understand that clubs hire coaches for different reasons, their purposes differ and thus the criteria changes with it. I dont want to sound harsh but there are people here who still think Pep "had it easy" at Barça and has failed at Bayern so going into a deeper, more thought provoking debate like that was a sure-fire trip to a headache.

For your second paragraph, because again I really don't fancy going over it again when I've already quoted notable figures in German football, just read the 2 Honegstein articles I linked from The Guardian.

Brendan Flowers

Andersonisgod wrote: »

The worst thing I think I ever did on this forum was start this thread because it gave an open forum for opinions like "he took over a bayern side that played exciting football and he turned them into a boring passing team" to actually be unleashed on the masses. Some of the stuff here has been tough to read at times because it is so blatantly wrong and yet, when you call some people on this, they actually get into a debate with you, not only do they get into a debate with you but they are actually convinced that watching a handful of Barcelona and Bayern matches in a season and checking the league table the odd time actually qualifies their opinion as being an informed one, frankly it's all been a bit too much to take for me. If I could I would literally create a list books and articles that I would advise everyone read before commenting on this thread, that's even before I suggest you begin to even watch Pep's teams play each week, let alone talk about them because the extent to which some are out of the loop here is incredible to me. I can't do that, it'd be too much work for me and I have no doubt that nobody will pay attention to it anyway so, for short, here's two articles by heralded pundit and journalist of German football and acclaimed author of the book "Das Reboot" Raphael Honigstein. Read his articles, keep an eye on his Twitter and you'll get some kind of realistic sense of Pep's work at least.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2015/dec/21/farewell-pep-guardiola-bundesliga-bayern-munich

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2015/dec/19/pep-guardiola-bayern-munich-tactical-genius

You do realise that making a condescending post claiming that the people who you dont agree with obviously only watch a handful of Bayern and Barca games does not help you win an argument. Not even remotely. You no nothing about a lot people in this thread, what football they watch, how often they watch it. Yet you resort to one of the more lazy comebacks in a desperate attempt to get yourself back in the debate.

Andersonisgod

Brendan Flowers wrote: »

You do realise that making a condescending post claiming that the people who you dont agree with obviously only watch a handful of Bayern and Barca games does not help you win an argument. Not even remotely. You no nothing about a lot people in this thread, what football they watch, how often they watch it. Yet you resort to one of the more lazy comebacks in a desperate attempt to get yourself back in the debate.

Thing is though, I do. You'd be amazed at how often I have this exact same debate, moreso the Barcelona aspect of it, I can practically predict how many posts in I will make certain points. I also know how much football these people watch of Barcelona and Bayern Munich because it comes through in their posts, it screams through the screen, it's the equivalent of giving a presentation of a book you were supposed to read buy instead you just watched the movie adaptation (and in this case it was a really bad adaptation), you try to fool the lecturer but he knows what you've done because it is obvious to someone with a knowledge of the book that you are faking your way through this. How do I know? I see it in the posts. Because the opinion differs to mine? No, like a lecturer, I would consider a well thought out argumen that contains a different viewpoint to my own, however no argument here has had that because to construct such an argument you would need an array of knowledge on the subject.

Was it lazy? Perhaps but clearly I wasn't doing the trick so 2 articles by respected journalist Raphael Honigstein may be more effective.

gosplan

Bounty Hunter wrote: »

tbh I feel this debate has gone a little too far but it actually started with people agreeing that he is a great manager just that he wasn't worth being called the greatest of a generation until he had done it with a team where although it is an achievement to win things it is not a great surprise.

If that label hadn't been attached to him in the OP I doubt you would have so much debate at this moment just speculation on his next move, which players at City etc would suit / benefit from his arrival, because tbh I can't imagine anyone thinks he is a poor coach. This isn't a rijkaard situation where he was lucky to have such players at his disposal and then when he didn't he failed.

Yeah. I'd agree with this. Just don't think you can label his time at Bayern a failure. Looking at everything in terms of the knockout stages of CL is a bit short sighted.

Anyway, the debate will be firmly put to bed when he comes to England and faces the ultimate footballing test - midweek away game at Stoke.

AdamD

Hate actually responding to Anderson as hes the most biased person I've ever come across, but can we just clarify this:
Some people don't rate him.
Most people do rate him but are taking issue with your posts because you seem determined to give him credit for absolutely everything that's ever happened in football no matter how tenuous the link. Giving him credit for Germany winning the World Cup is ****ing nonsense.

SlickRic

Andersonisgod wrote: »

The reason for a lack of response, other than being slightly preoccupied with replying to like 3 or 4 other people at once, is that trying to explain the difference between a coach like Guardiola and a coach like Ancelotti (which is where that debate would have gone given the last paragraph of it) would take up far too much time and would have riled up far too many people who simply don't understand that clubs hire coaches for different reasons, their purposes differ and thus the criteria changes with it. I dont want to sound harsh but there are people here who still think Pep "had it easy" at Barça and has failed at Bayern so going into a deeper, more thought provoking debate like that was a sure-fire trip to a headache.

For your second paragraph, because again I really don't fancy going over it again when I've already quoted notable figures in German football, just read the 2 Honegstein articles I linked from The Guardian.

I didn't once mention Ancelotti in the post Lassyk quoted.

I also never said he had it easy at Barca, so get lost with your generalising.

You're just deflecting from a point you don't like. It's not that I don't understand, it's just that you can't counter the Champions League argument unless he wins it with this Bayern team.

Bayern is a draw like nobody else on Germany. He was able to take the league's best striker off their biggest rivals without a problem. You can talk about philosophy all you like, but his advantages at Bayern are enormous in terms of being successful domestically.

CL semis are minimum every year. And they've been beaten easily by top teams who could beat this much vaunted 'gegenpresse' at that stage. That's a failure, and will continue to be until he adapts to it with this team.