32A 7.2 kW chargepoint installed

Rafal

My charge point has just been installed. It is a 32A type 1 tethered (Leaf) multi mode (also has a 13A socket) Rolec in a nice terracotta colour. It was a little bit more complex, as I had it installed on our driveway, away from the building, which meant burying extra long armoured cable, erecting a nice custom-made wooden pedestal, and also adding a priority device at the fuse board next to the existing 40A fuse that supplies our steam shower unit.

I was able to negotiate with the installers for the cost to be reduced in lieu of taking the ESB 16A device. The discount was worth €400, and saved me from having to have an unnecessary second device, while giving me something from the grant that I have qualified for.

If you are thinking of having a 32A charge point, do consider negotiating with the installers, it worked for me.

axe2grind

Well done and thanks for sharing

pwurple

How mch did it cost you in the end?

Any photo?

Excellent, As part of the ESB installation there was no way in Hell I'd get the 32 amp But I am going to install it next year myself, luckily I pre wired the existing EVSE for 40 amps.

Rafal

As requested, here are photos of the newly installed unit, on a pedestal. The total cost was €1300, of which €350 bought the custom-made pedestal made by a friendly carpenter, who has also laid the armoured cable under the garden, and lifted and replaced pavement slabs. The LED PIR light was €50. The €900 bought the Rolec unit, a pretty long (20m or so) armoured cable suitable for 40A, a priority device, and all costs of the installation of the above—it took a full day and a half to do all the works plus a quick survey visit. This is after the "discount" of approx €400 to allow for the ESB's worth of the SEAI grant. I have overpaid about €100 for the Rolec, but this way I have it all on one invoice and everything is covered by the installer's warranty, as well as their certificate.

Now I need that 30 kWh Leaf to test it!

Rolec 32A EVSE Type 1 Multimode in Ireland (Side View).jpg

Rolec 32A EVSE Type 1 Multimode in Ireland (Front View).jpg

k123456

pardon my ignorance, whats the advantage please of

32A 7.2 kW

Excellent, looks super !

You'll really appreciate the 6.6 kw charger, especially with the 30 kwh ! It will be handy while out and about too plugged into the standard street charge points !

k123456

k123456 wrote: »

pardon my ignorance, whats the advantage please of

32A 7.2 kW

It's not quiet 32 amps, 7 kw , the "optional charger in the leaf is available as 6.6 Kw" the charge point above is rated for 32 amps 7kw. but the ESB install only the free 16 amp even if you are willing to pay extra for the 32 amp or not you won't get it unless you buy it and have it installed yourself.

It means charging twice as fast from home with the installed 32 amp charge point. Having an EV means the ability to charge as fast as possible when you "need it" is a major plus, most people won't spend the 900 and fair enough if your budget is tight then that's different but if you can afford it it's highly valuable. Though most people simply won't spend the money on it regardless.

You'll manage charging at 16 amps for most of the time over night but if you find yourself getting home on a low charge the 6.6 Kw will give you about 35 Kms per hr compared to about 17 kms with the standard 3.3 Kw.

The 6.6 Kw means that you will get a decent charge in 2 hrs compared to the 3.3 from the standard street charge points which means in a lot of cases you can go to a charge point in town and after two hrs it probably has enough charge to get you home without looking for and waiting at a fast charge point, there also could be someone waiting at that charge point and you could have to wait for up to an hour.

While I don't plug in into standard street charge points a lot any time it saves me waiting at a fast charger is money well spent.

On longer motorway trips you probably won't get away without using the fast chargers on route but then when you get into town you can plug into a standard street charger and get a significant charge in 2 hrs or even an hour on SCP can mean much less time needed on the fast charger.

Having lived with the leaf for almost a year now the 6.6 Kw charger is something I would not do without.

Most people will say don't waste the 900 Euro's because they don't have the 6.6 Kw and don't realise the benefits because they're used to spending countless minutes at fast chargers and tolerate it and all 2011 - 132 built cars only had the 3.3 Kw. Maybe some people don't drive a lot and the over night charge will do them 2 days in this case I'd say fair enough but is it better to have it than want it for the sake of 900 Euro's when buying a new car ? If I were buying 2nd hand I wouldn't buy the 3.3 Kw so something to think about if buying outright and selling it on.

Dealers also say that the 6.6 Kw is a waste but this is because 99% of leafs ordered by dealers in Ireland don't have the 3.3 Kw because they want to keep the list price down as low as possible , dealers are promoting fast charger abuse by saying "just use the free fast chargers" but as I said, what's your time worth waiting at fast chargers ?

KCross

Mad_lad
I'm a newbie so I'll add to the silly questions! How does the 3.3kw leaf benefit from the fast chargers that you speak of if the leaf doesn't have the 6.6kw charger. How does that work?

From what I can gather there are different types of street charges... Fast and slow? Why aren't they all fast? Can every car use both?

Also, since the ESB will only put in the 16amp chargers at home, what is involved,electrically, in ensuring that the connections, wiring etc support 32amp so that all you have to do in a few years time is to change the charger on the wall?

KCross

KCross

KCross wrote: »

Mad_lad
I'm a newbie so I'll add to the silly questions! How does the 3.3kw leaf benefit from the fast chargers that you speak of if the leaf doesn't have the 6.6kw charger. How does that work?

From what I can gather there are different types of street charges... Fast and slow? Why aren't they all fast? Can every car use both?

Also, since the ESB will only put in the 16amp chargers at home, what is involved,electrically, in ensuring that the connections, wiring etc support 32amp so that all you have to do in a few years time is to change the charger on the wall?

KCross

Hi Kcross,

The fast chargers are 45-50 kw DC chargers and all leafs have a fast charge port apart from a few 2013 XE Basic leafs and maybe 2014 which the fast charge port was optional.

The slow charge points or standard charge points are actually 22 Kw capable but only the Renault Zoe with it's 44 Kw ac on board charger and Tesla Model S with optional twin 10 Kw (20 Kw total) can use them to their full potential.

These charge points can charge the leaf at 3.3 kw or 6.6 kw depending on what charger you get.

Both the 3.3 Kw and 6.6 Kw leaf can charge from the fast chargers via the DC port.

The advantage of the 6.6 is you can get a charge at home or from a slow charge point in half the time. We'll call the scp's for handiness.


With the 6.6 charging isn't so slow from the scp's. and can mean by the time you get back to the car there is enough range to get home or at least spend far less time on a fast charger.

I'm not here to tell people the 6.6 is convenient just to get people to spend 900 extra, I've had the leaf nearly a year now and I don't use the 6.6 at public charge points a lot but I greatly appreciate it when I use it. There are people who would appreciate it a lot more than me who might take the leaf on longer runs them me a lot more often and while you can't escape fast charging on a long motorway run it does mean far fewer trips to the fast chargers and hanging around for 30 mins or 1 hr if someone just got to the fast charger before you. If you fell it's not for you or you really don't want to spend 900 Extra than that is absolutely fine. You can live without it.

There are many trips you take that will be in rage of the leaf to the destination you are going, plug in at scp and it's charged or enough to get home or at least enough to greatly reduce the time you need to spend on a fast charger.

The greatest benefit to me would be the ability to charge faster at home, if I'm low on charge and need to top up much faster , it will mean I will not have to go to the Carlow fast charger which is 10 K away and that's 20 K if I've to come back this direction so that's 20 Kms from 80% gone already or roughly 20-22% so the handiness of the 6.6 at home for me will be tremendous, a lot of people who live local in Naas and are close to the DC charger are addicted to it because they haven't the ability to charge at home and /or want free electricity. I really don't encourage this because waiting at fast chargers gets old very fast I guarantee it ! It's not just Naas but that's the place I fast charged the most and it drove me nuts.

If you want the ability to charge at 6.6 kw at home then you need to wire 40 amp cable from the consumer unit to the charger destination. Depending on the route you will have to get advice on the exact type of cable to run. Then all that has to be done if you intend to upgrade is chance the charge point on the wall and the RCBO in the consumer unit from 16 amps to 32. The ESB contractor may run this for you if you buy the cable, if it's more than 10 meters you'd be better off running it yourself.

Rafal

KCross wrote: »

Mad_lad
Also, since the ESB will only put in the 16amp chargers at home, what is involved,electrically, in ensuring that the connections, wiring etc support 32amp so that all you have to do in a few years time is to change the charger on the wall?
KCross

ESB do not install anything, they use 3rd party contractors, with whom you can negotiate. This thread is exactly about this, explaining how I got a 32A charge point installed and had part of its cost paid by ESB.

If you are thinking of 3.3 vs 6.6 for a Leaf, let me weigh in: go for the 6.6 if you can afford it. Half of Ireland will become "fast" to you.

Rafal

Rafal wrote: »

If you are thinking of 3.3 vs 6.6 for a Leaf, let me weigh in: go for the 6.6 if you can afford it. Half of Ireland will become "fast" to you.

Exactly !

People over rate the fast chargers and while they can be quiet convenient and fast the 6.6 in many ways can work out much, much faster and more convenient in the sense that you don't have to wait around after you do your business, you come back to the car and it's charged enough to get back home.

I can see the usefulness of the fast chargers for those with 3.3 Kw leafs but if you can afford it it makes no sense not to go for the 6.6 Kw.

Here is another thing to do, go to the charge point map.

https://www.esb.ie/electric-cars/electric-car-charging/electric-car-charge-point-map.jsp

Now select standard charge points, then deselect the option and select ChaDeMo which is the fast charger that the leaf uses, now compare the amount of DC V standard points.

But even if there were as many DC points, you still have to wait for a charge but in a lot of cases too you might only need a 10 min charge and in that case it's not so bad. 10 mins might get you an extra 40-50 Kms range. Unless there is some git that demands more than an 80% charge then you could find yourself waiting 45-50 mins before you even get to charge.

But either way the 6.6 is damn useful to have and I wouldn't be without it now.

Chrischarger

Rafal wrote: »

adding a priority device at the fuse board next to the existing 40A fuse that supplies our steam shower unit.

Most Consumer units are fitted with a 63Amp main fuse.
An electric shower and 6.6KW charging exceeds this 63A so you could end up with a dead car, a cold shower and a callout charge from the ESB if their fuse blows first (Some of the ESB fuses are rated 63A, the same as in your consumer unit).

A charger with built in timer can help, especially if benefitting from night-rate.

Rafal

Chrischarger wrote: »

Most Consumer units are fitted with a 63Amp main fuse.
An electric shower and 6.6KW charging exceeds this 63A so you could end up with a dead car, a cold shower and a callout charge from the ESB if their fuse blows first (Some of the ESB fuses are rated 63A, the same as in your consumer unit).

A charger with built in timer can help, especially if benefitting from night-rate.

I respectfully disagree—perhaps you are not familiar with the functioning of a priority device? It is set to always permit the steam shower unit to function, cutting out the power to the car charge point if needed. Once the steam unit is off, the power is restored to the charge point. In other words, the steam unit has the priority over the chargepoint and at no point in time the two can draw simultaneously, therefore never exceeding our house's supply.

Our installation is working well, it has been tested under the fullest load of all possible devices turned on, and it comes with an ESB safety certificate. The car can charge any time the steam generator unit is not on, which means more than 99% of the time. I seriously doubt my car charging will ever suffer from a 10 minute interruption caused by the occasional use of the steam shower unit.

I do not believe that your suggested solution of a timer could possibly benefit me in any way that would better than the solution I have installed. If you have any doubts about this, feel free to ask, I'd be happy to explain it further.

32 amps or about 7 kW is only about half a normal domestic supply.

Most people with electric showers that heat the water probably don't need them and most likely plenty of hot water in the hot water cylinder.

Pumped showers only are far more efficient and use hot water already in the tank.

I don't think it's too difficult to upgrade a single phase supply anyway.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

32 amps or about 7 kW is only about half a normal domestic supply.

Most people with electric showers that heat the water probably don't need them and most likely plenty of hot water in the hot water cylinder.

Pumped showers only are far more efficient and use hot water already in the tank.

Only if you happen to be heating the water as a by product. Most DHW is lost through lack of use

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

Only if you happen to be heating the water as a by product. Most DHW is lost through lack of use

I think most people in Ireland heat their homes via oil/gas or solid fuel so there would rarely be a time there is no hot water, it might be wasted but there are so many homes that have completely inadequately regulated heating systems that there is rarely a shortage of hot water because the heating is either on or off with very little control.

I have seen people use the immersion to heat the whole tank for a single 5 min shower instead of using the sink or boos function, so on that bases and electric shower would save far more money but most people don't need a shower that heats the water. I love the pressure from my pumped shower I did have an electric shower years ago and the pressure was useless.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

I think most people in Ireland heat their homes via oil/gas or solid fuel so there would rarely be a time there is no hot water, it might be wasted but there are so many homes that have completely inadequately regulated heating systems that there is rarely a shortage of hot water because the heating is either on or off with very little control.

I have seen people use the immersion to heat the whole tank for a single 5 min shower instead of using the sink or boos function, so on that bases and electric shower would save far more money but most people don't need a shower that heats the water. I love the pressure from my pumped shower I did have an electric shower years ago and the pressure was useless.

I don't run my heating from about June through to September , given the inefficiency of heating water in a big tank just to use a portion of it, electric showers are very convienent and cost effective

But the fact is , all this is irelevsnt to EVSE installation

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

I don't run my heating from about June through to September , given the inefficiency of heating water in a big tank just to use a portion of it, electric showers are very convienent and cost effective

But the fact is , all this is irelevsnt to EVSE installation

TBH if showers had the option to heat the water or have pumped only would be the best of both worlds.

But you're correct this is irrelevant to EVSE installation,

Back to my point, there is probably very few installations where the 32 amp evse can't be installed.

heliguyheliguy

Deleted User wrote: »

TBH if showers had the option to heat the water or have pumped only would be the best of both worlds.

But you're correct this is irrelevant to EVSE installation,

Back to my point, there is probably very few installations where the 32 amp evse can't be installed.

Where do you get your information from?
As an Electrician with 25 years experience I have yet to come across a domestic installation that is not capable of supplying 32amp services, the type of service is irrelevant water heaters, showers, room heaters and evse's are all within the ability of any domestic supply I have encountered. As long as the regs are followed the worst that would happen is a breaker would trip, unlikely as that is; it's hardly the end of the world.
I could see the esb running into grid supply problems if tens of thousands of people ran out tomorrow and bought ev's and tried to plug them all into the the same substation, this problem seems to a lot further away than most of us would like and even if the pace of uptake grew to meet eu commitments it is very unlikely that it would cause issues.

xband

With regard to showers. Electric ones are almost totally unique to the UK and Ireland and in my opinion anyway, provide a noisy, temperature fluctuating, not very pleasant experience.

Putting in a modern, well insulated hot water cylinder heated primarily from central heating (and possibly solar) or looking at using instantaneous gas hot water heating (especially in smaller properties with lower use) would eliminate your electric showers.

To me, electric showers look like a cheap way of retrofitting showers into old homes that had substandard plumbing. I don't understand why they remain so common here.

Also heating water with an instantaneous electric heater isn't cheap per kWh. There's a lot of myth out there about hot water in Ireland and Britian.

Freeing up that load for car charging would be very useful.

A kWh of heat is a kWh of heat and natural gas comes in at as little as 4.7c per kWh if you shop around.

Also think about he CO2. Heating water with gas at point of use rather than burning gas at a remote power station with all the generation and transmission losses then using an electric resistance to hear the water makes a hell of a lot more sense !

heliguyheliguy

heliguyheliguy wrote: »

Where do you get your information from?
As an Electrician with 25 years experience I have yet to come across a domestic installation that is not capable of supplying 32amp services,unlikely that it would cause issues.

Eah, think you read what I posted and misinterpreted what I was saying all along ?

xband

xband wrote: »

With regard to showers. Electric ones are almost totally unique to the UK and Ireland and in my opinion anyway, provide a noisy, temperature fluctuating, not very pleasant experience.

Putting in a modern, well insulated hot water cylinder heated primarily from central heating (and possibly solar) or looking at using instantaneous gas hot water heating (especially in smaller properties with lower use) would eliminate your electric showers.

To me, electric showers look like a cheap way of retrofitting showers into old homes that had substandard plumbing. I don't understand why they remain so common here.

Also heating water with an instantaneous electric heater isn't cheap per kWh. There's a lot of myth out there about hot water in Ireland and Britian.

Freeing up that load for car charging would be very useful.

A kWh of heat is a kWh of heat and natural gas comes in at as little as 4.7c per kWh if you shop around.

Also think about he CO2. Heating water with gas at point of use rather than burning gas at a remote power station with all the generation and transmission losses then using an electric resistance to hear the water makes a hell of a lot more sense !

Yes so many electric showers installed because most people don't know what they're buying to be honest.

There should be information in the likes of BnQ to explain the differences between the two showers, pumped and electric. Most people buy the electric, I don't know why.

xband

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yes so many electric showers installed because most people don't know what they're buying to be honest.

There should be information in the likes of BnQ to explain the differences between the two showers, pumped and electric. Most people buy the electric, I don't know why.

The 1980s and 70s ESB ads worked too well!

BoatMad

xband wrote: »

With regard to showers. Electric ones are almost totally unique to the UK and Ireland and in my opinion anyway, provide a noisy, temperature fluctuating, not very pleasant experience.

Putting in a modern, well insulated hot water cylinder heated primarily from central heating (and possibly solar) or looking at using instantaneous gas hot water heating (especially in smaller properties with lower use) would eliminate your electric showers.

To me, electric showers look like a cheap way of retrofitting showers into old homes that had substandard plumbing. I don't understand why they remain so common here.

Also heating water with an instantaneous electric heater isn't cheap per kWh. There's a lot of myth out there about hot water in Ireland and Britian.

Freeing up that load for car charging would be very useful.

A kWh of heat is a kWh of heat and natural gas comes in at as little as 4.7c per kWh if you shop around.

Also think about he CO2. Heating water with gas at point of use rather than burning gas at a remote power station with all the generation and transmission losses then using an electric resistance to hear the water makes a hell of a lot more sense !

Firstly we and the use these systems because we have had historically poor flow vented low pressure hot water system. Europe typically has , 3 bar mains water heated and hence produces the equivalent of our pumped shower

Gas heating is not as thermally effecient as electric heating , but yes depending it can be economical

Electric heater at typically 5-7kwh units. It's easy to work out what a 5 or ten minute shower costs.

heliguyheliguy

Deleted User wrote: »

Eah, think you read what I posted and misinterpreted what I was saying all along ?

It seems that's exactly what I did, sorry.

xband

BoatMad wrote: »

Firstly we and the use these systems because we have had historically poor flow vented low pressure hot water system. Europe typically has , 3 bar mains water heated and hence produces the equivalent of our pumped shower
.

That's why you need a booster pump though, not a water heater in your bathroom. The majority of electric showers here aren't pumped and consume anything up to 10.8kW. A booster pump uses at most a few hundred watts.

I mean historically, many countries used a kettle and a bath by the fireplace, it doesn't mean they should still be doing that in 2016.

It's all about not upgrading ancient, uninsulated immersion heater cylinders both here and in Britain. A modern system is like a thermos flask on a large scale. Heat loss is tiny. You can heat by gas, solar, oil, solid fuel, wood pellets, heat pumps or off-peak electricity.

Having a 10.8kW electric instantaneous water heater in your shower cubicle seems a bit like a daft way of doing things to me and it's very, very British / Irish. I've never seen it done anywhere else.

Also they're installed in brand new homes which should have good water heating systems anyway...

The other oddity is we are absolutely paranoid about electricity in bathrooms - no switches, no sockets (most other countires have RCD protected sockets in the bathroom).
Yet, having an RCD protected 45 amp circuit terminating in a splash proof box (IPX4) in the shower cubicle is somehow fine.

IPX4 = "Water splashing against the enclosure from any direction shall have no harmful effect."

It doesn't cover jets for evample...

Anyway without going way off tangent, I just find some aspects of Irish and British regs and practice a bit odd and illogical.

Just seems like something I would eliminate in favour of EV charging facilities.

mylesm

xband wrote: »

That's why you need a booster pump though, not a water heater in your bathroom. The majority of electric showers here aren't pumped and consume anything up to 10.8kW. A booster pump uses at most a few hundred watts.

I mean historically, many countries used a kettle and a bath by the fireplace, it doesn't mean they should still be doing that in 2016.

It's all about not upgrading ancient, uninsulated immersion heater cylinders both here and in Britain. A modern system is like a thermos flask on a large scale. Heat loss is tiny. You can heat by gas, solar, oil, solid fuel, wood pellets, heat pumps or off-peak electricity.

Having a 10.8kW electric instantaneous water heater in your shower cubicle seems a bit like a daft way of doing things to me and it's very, very British / Irish. I've never seen it done anywhere else.

Also they're installed in brand new homes which should have good water heating systems anyway...

The other oddity is we are absolutely paranoid about electricity in bathrooms - no switches, no sockets (most other countires have RCD protected sockets in the bathroom).
Yet, having an RCD protected 45 amp circuit terminating in a splash proof box (IPX4) in the shower cubicle is somehow fine.

IPX4 = "Water splashing against the enclosure from any direction shall have no harmful effect."

It doesn't cover jets for evample...

Anyway without going way off tangent, I just find some aspects of Irish and British regs and practice a bit odd and illogical.

Just seems like something I would eliminate in favour of EV charging facilities.

Very Good Points but almost all Electric Showers in Ireland are Pumped ie the Showers are usually fed from Attic Tank and pumped by an internal pump in shower this is mainly because Mains Water Pressure is not at all stable and you could never be sure a non Pumped Electric Shower would have the minimum pressure required and you cold be left standing in a cold shower

heliguyheliguy

xband wrote: »

Just seems like something I would eliminate in favour of EV charging facilities.

It would not be hard to wire the shower and evse interlocked so only one can operate at a time. Give priority to the shower as it should only be on for a few minutes. charge the car the rest of the time.
I'm not entirely sure how often this would be an issue, as most homes have 80/100amp supplies but anyway its a non-issue as it's so easily overcome.

mylesm

heliguyheliguy wrote: »

It would not be hard to wire the shower and evse interlocked so only one can operate at a time. Give priority to the shower as it should only be on for a few minutes. charge the car the rest of the time.
I'm not entirely sure how often this would be an issue, as most homes have 80/100amp supplies but anyway its a non-issue as it's so easily overcome.

I made that point exactly its no different than Houses Having 2 Electric Showers and theres loads of them

But when EVs really take off I anticipate lots of problems with older houses not being suitable for installation of EVSE