32A 7.2 kW chargepoint installed

heliguyheliguy

mylesm wrote: »

I made that point exactly its no different than Houses Having 2 Electric Showers and theres loads of them

But when EVs really take off I anticipate lots of problems with older houses not being suitable for installation of EVSE

I just haven't seen any home ever that would not be able to supply an evse so I don't understand where the idea is coming from that this would be an issue.
I realize that I have not seen every house out there and I'm sure there must be some that would need updating before they could safely supply an evse but I can't even imagine a situation where it would be terribly difficult.

I remain a bit confused as to why this is even a discussion.

If you wanted to talk about how a rapid uptake of ev's would put a strain on local substations and the grid as a whole; there would be something to think about but given that we are unlikely to reach a pace of uptake that would out pace the esb's ability to upgrade the network then it would only be an issue if the esb resisted the investment needed.

Rafal

heliguyheliguy wrote: »

It would not be hard to wire the shower and evse interlocked so only one can operate at a time. Give priority to the shower as it should only be on for a few minutes. charge the car the rest of the time.
I'm not entirely sure how often this would be an issue, as most homes have 80/100amp supplies but anyway its a non-issue as it's so easily overcome.

With all respect, perhaps you did not read my posts earlier in the thread (lost in the discussion of plumbing perhaps). This is exactly what I have installed: a priority device that gives priority to the shower, and when that is not drawing significant current, the EVSE takes what it needs.

On another note, and not directed at you but to all the otherwise very helpful participants of this thread, it is mildly frustrating when a thread about a chargepoint dedicates more than half of its posts to a discussion of plumbing, cylinders, historical efficiency of water heating vs this or that. Perhaps those posts should be moved to another, plumbing-related forum? They make this thread almost useless to someone searching for advice on installing a 32A charge point, who is hoping for a relevant point further and further down the thread, and just wastes their time. I feel demotivated to start other threads. Perhaps just deleting this damaged thread would be the right thing to do. Thank you all for reading my rant, no offence intended, just some hopefully constructive feedback.

xband

heliguyheliguy wrote: »

I just haven't seen any home ever that would not be able to supply an evse so I don't understand where the idea is coming from that this would be an issue.
I realize that I have not seen every house out there and I'm sure there must be some that would need updating before they could safely supply an evse but I can't even imagine a situation where it would be terribly difficult.

I remain a bit confused as to why this is even a discussion.

If you wanted to talk about how a rapid uptake of ev's would put a strain on local substations and the grid as a whole; there would be something to think about but given that we are unlikely to reach a pace of uptake that would out pace the esb's ability to upgrade the network then it would only be an issue if the esb resisted the investment needed.

That's the point tho. There's no issue in Irish homes in general but it keeps getting reiterated by various forums that there are problems with limited supplies.

There really aren't any other issues at all.

People may simply need to make better choices about using electric heating / water heating tho. That's the same all over Europe and overall, Irish supplies are fairly chunky compared to many places.

If EVs become a priority and charging over night things like storage heating should be discouraged strongly. There are much more cost effective and less CO2 blasting alternatives. Use electricity for doing things it does best - powering motors and electronics. It's very inefficient from a CO2 point of view at heating unless you've a massive nuclear or renewable generation capacity installed which at present, we don't.

Ireland's power system isn't even suited to storage heating anyway as we don't have an issue like the the UK and France - big nuclear stations that provide base load that can't be turned up / down easily.

Ireland's generators are mostly very flexible and responsive these days anyway and can respond to demand.

Getting EVs onto the network overnight would make sense tho. Also using smart metering to encourage charging at lower demand periods would make sense.

You could simply send out a text alert with "charge now" and offer reduced rates for that period.

Increasing local distribution capacity isn't *that* hard although you'd need to add more substations and increase the medium voltage on the distribution layer.

This was done to move 10kV rural distribution to 20kV which basically doubled its capacity.

Main thing is they need to be planning this in now and not responding to demand after it happens.

heliguyheliguy

mylesm wrote: »

Well A lot of older homes in Ireland especially in smaller Irish Towns have very poor wiring 6sq mains is not uncommon and an old style fuse box also so to install The RCBO would require at minimum an extra box etc to house it and this would not be included in free install Of course as you say almost any house could supply an EVSE but the costs for some houses will be more than the free install will cover As Far as I know from reading forums in UK they will only install ESVE in Houses with Modern MCB Consumer Units This may apply here I am not sure what the installers are being told to do in above situations

Well if they haven't updated to the much safer mcb consumer unit at this stage then they need to regardless of evse, its not a big job at all. The cost is on par with a couple of main-dealer full services; is your house not worthy of maintenance.

This goes back to my point of unwillingness to maintain. if your wiring is 30 years old (the last time it legal to install a fuse board) it's time for a checkup and update where necessary.

xband

If you've ancient wiring there's very little you can do other than upgrade. This isn't unique to Ireland by any means! Some really prehistoric installations all over the UK and much of Europe.

Its not a major barrier to EV adoption either. It's basically house maintenance and people should be upgrading regardless for fire safety and electrical safety reasons anyway.

I've seen similar nonsense about how French wiring is terrible based on someone looking at a farmhouse with 1940s (or older) wiring - no earths, 2 pin flat sockets etc. At least in Ireland and Britian modern plugs don't fit ancient sockets so, you at least get a sense that wiring is obsolete. In continental countries backwards compatibility was retained, so it's not unusual to see a 16amp, modern, earthed plug jammed into a 10amp unearthed socket on a lighting circuit...

Ireland is nowhere near that bad!!

Where as modern French wiring is absolutely top notch.

You can't really generalise in countires that have housing stock that goes back to the dawn of electricity.

Also, most Irish homes are not ancient. The majority would have at least 1970s era stuff, and if you look at the building booms - a huge % would be very recent.

Fuses aren't the end of the world either. There's nothing inherently unsafe about diazed fuses and they were used by some electricians well into the 80s. They just do exactly the same job as an MCB just far less conveniently as they can't be reset. They're far, far superior to UK rewirable fuses but they can be indicicative of a very old installation as they were used from the 1920s to 1980s.

The issue is all about quality of wiring and adequacy of the system. My own house was wired in 1977 and other than needing earths retrofitted to lighting circuits and a more modern board it was always a very decent system.

10X20A radials for sockets (4 doubles in most rooms) & 1 for the immersion heater.
1X10A for the central heating system
8X6A for lights
1X32A for the cooker

RCD on each row for sockets and outdoor lighting.
10A RCBO retrofitted for bathrooms lights/fans

Incoming customer tails were upgraded and the ESB incoming underground line is way oversized for demand so is fine.

Earth rods replaced and neutralisation (TN-C-S) bonding was all checked and all the plumbing is correctly bonded for equipotential zones.

Wiring was inspected and it's all fine. High quality MK sockets throughout the house and they are checked and I change them if they seem loose.

EV addition was easy !!

mylesm

NO
I am not saying that its a barrier to uptake but people will have to be aware that wiring and Distribution Boards may need updating etc Guy installing mine yesterday said he was already having some issues explaining to people it would incur extra costs thats all I was saying

This pic is probably one of the worst I came across in my Career not in Ireland rest assured

heliguyheliguy

xband wrote: »

That's the point tho. There's no issue in Irish homes in general but it keeps getting reiterated by various forums that there are problems with limited supplies.

There really aren't any other issues at all.

People may simply need to make better choices about using electric heating / water heating tho. That's the same all over Europe and overall, Irish supplies are fairly chunky compared to many places.

If EVs become a priority and charging over night things like storage heating should be discouraged strongly. There are much more cost effective and less CO2 blasting alternatives. Use electricity for doing things it does best - powering motors and electronics. It's very inefficient from a CO2 point of view at heating unless you've a massive nuclear or renewable generation capacity installed which at present, we don't.

Ireland's power system isn't even suited to storage heating anyway as we don't have an issue like the the UK and France - big nuclear stations that provide base load that can't be turned up / down easily.

Ireland's generators are mostly very flexible and responsive these days anyway and can respond to demand.

Getting EVs onto the network overnight would make sense tho. Also using smart metering to encourage charging at lower demand periods would make sense.

You could simply send out a text alert with "charge now" and offer reduced rates for that period.

Increasing local distribution capacity isn't *that* hard although you'd need to add more substations and increase the medium voltage on the distribution layer.

This was done to move 10kV rural distribution to 20kV which basically doubled its capacity.

Main thing is they need to be planning this in now and not responding to demand after it happens.

Mostly true but over the last month 40% of our electricity came from wind, a lot of which was produced at night.

The plan is for this to increase dramatically over the next decade a plan which is well underway.
This may change things by increasing the need for off peak storage, which could be aided by charging over night and storage heaters.
The co2 emissions are then a non issue for storage heating.

The differences in efficiency are negligible when the electricity used to mine and process fossil fuels is accounted for.

http://smartgriddashboard.eirgrid.com/#roi/generation?scroll=fuel

xband

You have to pick though. There's finite capacity on the grid and electricity can be used to power EVs.

Using very efficient gas boilers, solar, geothermal heatpumps maybe looking at district heat in dense areas makes a lot of sense. In low density/rural areas biomass pellets make sense too (can be smokey tho and not really as suitable for mass adoption in urban areas). That coupled with serious investment in insulation and much higher building standards.

If you can prioritise using electricity to replace very polluting petrol / diesel use, to my mind that makes a lot more sense than using it where other very workable alternatives are available for heating where as electricity is a very, very useful method of powering cars and I can't really see any other viable alternatives.

If your goal is overall CO2 emissions reduction, you've got to make choices and create financial incentives to encourage adoption of systems that make best use of resources.

I'd rather see well insulated homes, local use of ultra efficient heating and an EV charging over night than 8 storage heaters mostly heating the garden.

We really aren't making much effort at all on district heating - there are a noteworthy examples - Tralee etc but, there's no reason why all new apartment developments, housing estates etc couldn't be plumbed for a district heating plant with geothermal or biomass.
Apartments should be at the very least using gas CHP.

I think the whole point of all this is to inform people that there really isn't an issue installing a 32 amp charge point and they can have one if they are willing to install it themselves. 32 amp charging is very convenient and I am installing it soon.

I'm charging right now after being out this morning, I am hoping it's charged by the time I need to go back out again, charging at 6.6 Kw means I would be able to charge to 90-95%% in about half the time.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

I think the whole point of all this is to inform people that there really isn't an issue installing a 32 amp charge point and they can have one if they are willing to install it themselves. 32 amp charging is very convenient and I am installing it soon.

I'm charging right now after being out this morning, I am hoping it's charged by the time I need to go back out again, charging at 6.6 Kw means I would be able to charge to 90-95%% in about half the time.

I agree,

Just finished the design of my own EVSE. once tests are complete ( using a simulator/tester and then my actual car in March ) I'll publish the design , like I promised. EVSEs are quite straight forward.

The big advantage of mine is , unlike using crude load priority switching , it implements load "sharing." , as the house loads rises , towards a preset limit. The evse commands the Leaf charger to take less power. So , for example , when you use the power shower , the leaf throttles back as required to the minimum 6 A charge rate , so charging is never interrupted.

I'm just modifying a esp8266 wifi module , to connect it to my wifi lan

Not to digress again into plumbing. But with night rate , I'm now switching to mains pressure , high thermal eficiency storage , with imersions , hot water system and dumping my instant showers, so infact leaf charging at 28A will be unlikely to be disrupted

stesaurus

Haven't seen you posting here in a while so thought you might have decided not to go ahead. Are you taking the 30kw?
It will be interesting to see how the Leaf responds to the EVSE when testing. Will it throw up errors if it detects power supply issues as the EVSE ramps down.
I presume you're putting a tethered type 1 cable on it so no use offering my i3 for a test of the charger

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

32 amps or about 7 kW is only about half a normal domestic supply.

Most people with electric showers that heat the water probably don't need them and most likely plenty of hot water in the hot water cylinder.

Pumped showers only are far more efficient and use hot water already in the tank.

At present, I do not run my central heating from about may through to September, other then occasional cold nights.

How do you suggest I have a hot shower each morning, other then heating a relatively large and lossy , cylinder of water , which will then sit loosing it's heat throughout the next 24 hours !

BoatMad

s.welstead wrote: »

Haven't seen you posting here in a while so thought you might have decided not to go ahead. Are you taking the 30kw?
It will be interesting to see how the Leaf responds to the EVSE when testing. Will it throw up errors if it detects power supply issues as the EVSE ramps down.
I presume you're putting a tethered type 1 cable on it so no use offering my i3 for a test of the charger

Yes we vacillated when the Esb charging fiasco came out. , and did the tour of 1 litre petrols , ( discard those ,horrible for motorways ) then onto 1.6 diesels ( not bad ). I have a spreadsheet as long as my arm at this stage. ' wasn't help by my wife's workplace stonewalling her on charging access

As we kept specing up the super mini diesels we started to climb back into Leaf territory. then at the last moment ( literally about to transfer deposit to the dealer of the diesel ) , my wife got " support" for work charging , and we both decided we wanted to try the EV ( she's more enthusiastic then me ! ) so , quick trip to excellant Nissan Wexford , ( Thomas McDonald , is the sales manger and expert on all things leaf, he drives one himself ). Who held all the pricing from pre Christmas and hey presto. 30kw , cold pack , 6kw charger , SV in silver , just about to sign this week. ( just mulling the pcp options or cash etc )


As for the EVSE, I kept working on the project anyway

Yes , on the face of it , the Protocol between the EVSE and the car charger , which is just a simple square wave of differing mark space ratios, is designed to support variable rates. The only issue is whether the leaf samples the mark space on charge cycle start. If it does it hasn't implemented the spec properly, but it won't be the first issue of something like that.

We shall see , the EVSE is quite cheap , about 10 euros in parts , outside the case and the high current contractor , charging cable etc.im just adding wifi to it at the moment ( and write an iPhone app, in between working 6 days a week at the moment !!! )

Yes fully thethered type1. But type 2 is identical except for the connector, so the evse itself is compatible with the i3 , I beleive.

After I use it on my leaf ( got to have the courage of ones convictions ) , I can make up a type 2 lead , as I actually have a connector . You'll welcome to vist to see it in operation.and try it out. Stay tuned

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

At present, I do not run my central heating from about may through to September, other then occasional cold nights.

How do you suggest I have a hot shower each morning, other then heating a relatively large and lossy , cylinder of water , which will then sit loosing it's heat throughout the next 24 hours !

I have just enough for a shower from heating the immersion on sink for 10-15 mins including enough for the sink. I don't need to heat the whole tank or at least three quarters with most immersion elements. So to me there is no need for an electric shower and I heat only what I need from the method above.

Most people use the electric shower but still need hot water from the tap so by heating the immersion for 10-15 mins just before I intend to shower is plenty for my needs and if my partner needs a shower just after me I heat the immersion all the way to 60 degrees. This ensures there is practically no water left to be wasted through convection.

If I find myself needing more hot water for dishes etc in Summer then I heat a kettle of water, I don't boil it but just about heat it enough.

There's very little wasted energy in my house.

peposhi

I got a bit confused here...
Rafal, is your charge point single or 3 phase one?

Rafal

peposhi wrote: »

I got a bit confused here...
Rafal, is your charge point single or 3 phase one?

Peposhi, it is a single-phase, 32A. That is capable of delivering 7.2 kW of power, similar to what domestic electric showers require. By the way, some Leaf dealers have been incorrectly trained to think that 3-phase supply is needed for 32A charge points, which is incorrect. Only a single phase is needed. If you had 3-phase supply, you would be able to install a 22 kW charge point, which would be of use to a Zoe, but not to a Leaf, i3, or an eGolf. Single phase domestic charge points max out at 7.2 kW, that is 32A, of which Leaf will only take no more than 6.6 kW, provided you specced it that way. By default it only takes 3.3 kW, which only requires a 16A charge point.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

peposhi

Rafal wrote: »

Peposhi, it is a single-phase, 32A. That is capable of delivering 7.2 kW of power, similar to what domestic electric showers require. By the way, some Leaf dealers have been incorrectly trained to think that 3-phase supply is needed for 32A charge points, which is incorrect. Only a single phase is needed. If you had 3-phase supply, you would be able to install a 22 kW charge point, which would be of use to a Zoe, but not to a Leaf, i3, or an eGolf. Single phase domestic charge points max out at 7.2 kW, that is 32A, of which Leaf will only take no more than 6.6 kW, provided you specced it that way. By default it only takes 3.3 kW, which only requires a 16A charge point.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

After a year of driving a Leaf and what I have learned the easy or the hard way re charging, CPs, batteries and etc I could clearly say that I regret not getting the 6.6kw on board charger.
Had I known a year a go what I know now + what you've just cleared up for me I would have been more than happy to pay extra €900 for the faster on board charger.

cros13

Rafal wrote: »

Single phase domestic charge points max out at 7.2 kW

9.6kW 40A single phase chargepoints are fairly popular, particularly in the US but also not unknown this side of the pond. The RAV4 EV and US version of the Tesla Model S (not the EU version due to it's charger layout) support charging on single phase at that rate. Several of the factory ICE conversion support 40A. The BMW i3 supports drawing a little more than 32A, so it would be a few % quicker charging on a 40A circuit.... though in practice it depends on the specific vehicle.

Unfortunately the majority of Leaf dealers in Ireland are only importing the 3.3 Kw Leaf to keep the list price as low as possible and if anyone asks about the 6.6 Kw they try to convince them they don't need it for fear they might go elsewhere and just buy whats in stock.

Charging an EV as quick as possible is essential, regardless of whether you need it often or not, I don't, but I'm bloody delighted with the 6.6 Kw when I need it ! This is what it's all about, when you need it !

Rafal

Indeed, I am with Mad_Lad on this one. Our Leaf is our only car, and I have already benefited from the 6.6 kW on 4 occasions, where I would have had to change my plans significantly had I only had the 3.3 charger:

1. Morning in Belfast, the car charged from 10-80% in 2 hours 40 mins while we visited a museum and had lunch, about 5 min walk from the charger (also offering free parking). After that I was able to continue my journey on a route that avoided making a detour to a rapid that would have made the afternoon appointment later than I could squeeze.

2. Lunch appointment of about 90 mins in Tullamore, en-route from Wicklow to Offaly, meant that with the 6.6 kW charger we entirely avoided the need for a rapid charge in Kilbeggan. With the 3.3 we would have needed a rapid—if this pattern repeats, and I've only had the car for a week, I can already see how 6.6 turns many regular chargers into "almost rapid" for us, something we could not achieve with 3.3. Provided you have something to do while the car is charging, this is more time-efficient than taking a detour to a rapid that requires you to lose some, even if little, time for the charge.

3. My husband brought back Leaf from Offaly with 53% but we needed to go to Kildare soon. My home charge point in Co Wickow, being 32A, gave us 53-73 in well under an 1 hour, we stopped at Nisan Belgard for a quick top up (not an ideal place, too crowded with unsold cars) and made our Kildare appointment in time. Without the 6.6 we would have had to skip lunch.

4. We arrived at Golden Lane in Dublin at 5:30pm with 13% (no other charges along the way) and knew we will be around Grafton St till 8pm. We got 13-74% in that time, making the journey home easy and allowing for one last errand, which otherwise would have meant a detour to a rapid.

I respect that some of you said that you have a 6.6 kW charger but you only have used it a handful of times in years. My experience shows that it is important to my family, which is why I would like to stress that its usefulness would depend on your circumstances.

I do stress also that if a Fast charger is down, the 6.6 could quiet possibly mean the difference between getting home and not.

Also by not having to visit fast chargers so often this is money well spent by not having to wait for a charge and queue so often.

As I said the 6.6 isn't something I use daily but when out and about it's terrific, when I go to Blanch shopping I don't have to sit in the car waiting for a charge. If using the car more than I think I would in a day the 6.6 is brilliant. The 32 amp home charge point would indeed be very useful and I'm currently looking for a suitable one.

I use the 7 Kw charge point at work daily but it's not necessary to charge at that power over a 12 hr shift so I only set the timer 2-2.5 hrs before I leave.

I do well appreciate that 900 Extra can be too much for some buyers and I don't mean to make out that they made a bad decision because ultimately, this decision is up to them if the budget can't stretch then this is good to stick to it.

I would hate to think someone did not spend the extra money just because they feel it will be of no benefit to them or think that waiting at fast chargers is a pleasant experience and later find out that they were wrong. Though most people that don't have the 6.6 Kw are mostly the ones who say they don't or wouldn't need it but that's a lot easier say when they don't have it because they'll have learned to live without it and adjust however it it suits them then this is fine I am glad that it has worked out.

peposhi

well i don't have it and i want one... but it's a bit late and it would cost me an arm and leg to get it even in a 24kw 161 lol

peposhi

peposhi wrote: »

well i don't have it and i want one... but it's a bit late and it would cost me an arm and leg to get it even in a 24kw 161 lol

Well, there's always the Gen II !

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

Unfortunately the majority of Leaf dealers in Ireland are only importing the 3.3 Kw Leaf to keep the list price as low as possible and if anyone asks about the 6.6 Kw they try to convince them they don't need it for fear they might go elsewhere and just buy whats in stock.

Charging an EV as quick as possible is essential, regardless of whether you need it often or not, I don't, but I'm bloody delighted with the 6.6 Kw when I need it ! This is what it's all about, when you need it !

Looking at the stock allocations recently . This seems to be changing with the 30 kW , a fair percentage of the unallocated and allocated stock seemed to be 6kw

Rafal

BoatMad wrote: »

Looking at the stock allocations recently . This seems to be changing with the 30 kW , a fair percentage of the unallocated and allocated stock seemed to be 6kw

That's promising, hopefully more driver statisfaction this way. In my opinion it should have been standard. The price difference seems artificial, and an item that's not really a luxury category option.

The 6.6 Kw charger is standard with the 30 Kwh battery in the U.S of course.

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

Looking at the stock allocations recently . This seems to be changing with the 30 kW , a fair percentage of the unallocated and allocated stock seemed to be 6kw

Where did you hear this ?

Excellent if true and it might help free up fast chargers the more people that have the 6.6 Kw charger.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

Where did you hear this ?

Excellent if true and it might help free up fast chargers the more people that have the 6.6 Kw charger.

Looking over the shoulder of the dealer as he searched for a suitable colour in stock

slave1

I have a query very relevant to the 16amp versus 32/40amp (forgive me if that is not 'electrically' correct).

I'm on a Leaf Hunt at the moment and just working out in my head access to the main board, route to a suitable charge point location and of course a question for me is what grade of charger.

Assume I buy a 6.6kWh capable Leaf.

Assume I install a 6.6kWh home charger.

My question is...

I understand that too many rapid charges may lead to battery degradation, so is it fair to say a 6.6kWh could lead to higher degradation issues relative to a 3.3kWh charger.
Perhaps this is a stupid question but my plan is to own our Leaf long term so it's long term battery health that I'm interested in. Charging will likely be 95%+ on Night Rate so whether it takes 7hrs to charge or 3.5hrs to charge at home is largely irrelevant. So if there are degradation issues with a 6.6kWh, I'll simply get a 3.3kWh charger.

TIA

stesaurus

slave1 wrote: »

I have a query very relevant to the 16amp versus 32/40amp (forgive me if that is not 'electrically' correct).

I'm on a Leaf Hunt at the moment and just working out in my head access to the main board, route to a suitable charge point location and of course a question for me is what grade of charger.

Assume I buy a 6.6kWh capable Leaf.

Assume I install a 6.6kWh home charger.

My question is...

I understand that too many rapid charges may lead to battery degradation, so is it fair to say a 6.6kWh could lead to higher degradation issues relative to a 3.3kWh charger.
Perhaps this is a stupid question but my plan is to own our Leaf long term so it's long term battery health that I'm interested in. Charging will likely be 95%+ on Night Rate so whether it takes 7hrs to charge or 3.5hrs to charge at home is largely irrelevant. So if there are degradation issues with a 6.6kWh, I'll simply get a 3.3kWh charger.

TIA

That's only a possibility with DC charging at much higher loads. AC is fine and isn't going to be any real difference between 3.3 & 6.6.

I find being able to charge at 7.2 fantastic at times. It can get you out of a hole but each person is different so only you can answer whether it's worth it.