Making A Murderer [Netflix - Documentary Series]

enfant terrible

Mountainsandh wrote: »

How about you watch season 2 to get all these fascinating answers ?

DeHaan seems to think the burn only lasted four hours for some reason.

Two witnesses said they saw the fire going strong at 7pm and still going strong at 11pm and "and according to DeHaan himself the bones look exactly like they would if Avery burned them in his pit for more than four hours."

DeHaan also says he's concerned the remains didn't retain their anatomical layout, which could only be achieved by stirring and stoking. This is ridiculous on its face. There were a rake, two hammers, shovel, etc, with charring on them, found next to the burn pit. Of course Avery was stirring and breaking up the remains as they burned. No one anywhere has claimed Avery started the fire and walked away, leaving it to burn undisturbed.

He says multiple times in his affidavit the remains look exactly as they should if Avery had a fire longer than 4 hours and stoked it, so as soon as it's pointed out the fire lasted more than 4 hours and was stoked, he'll be forced to admit of course the burn pit looks like the primary burn site.
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/037-Affidavit-of-Dr-DeHaan2.pdf

RocketRaccoon

enfant terrible wrote: »

He had already sold five cars and couldn't sell anymore without getting a licence.

Barb when interviewed said she didn't even want to sell the car but he did it anyway and specifically asked for Teresa, I wonder why?

At 8:12 a.m. on Oct. 31, the day Halbach was killed, Kratz says Avery called AutoTrader magazine and asked them to send "that same girl who was here last time."

He also rang using *67 to hide his number, his phone records show he only did this with Teresa number, no other numbers.

"Phone records show three calls from Avery to Teresa's cell phone on Oct. 31," says Kratz. "One at 2:24 [p.m.], and one at 2:35 – both calls Avery uses the *67 feature so Teresa doesn't know it him...both placed before she arrives.

The first two calls, one lasting only seven seconds and the other apparently hung up before it was answered, were placed around 2:30 p.m. used the blocking feature."

"Then one last call at 4:35 p.m., without the *67 feature. Avery first believes he can simply say she never showed up…so tries to establish the alibi call after she's already been there, hence the 4:35 call. She will never answer of course, so he doesn't need the *67 feature for that last call."]

The phone is no longer showing up on the network after 2:41.

The phone pinged a tower not near the Avery yard at 2.41, Bobby Dassey said he left his house at about 2.40/2.45 and her car was still there but he didn't see Teresa. So who had her phone near that tower? Or is Bobby lying about seeing her car on the property?

walshb

RocketRaccoon wrote: »

Has anyone in this thread said he is a good guy? By all accounts he seems like an awful **** tbh but I strongly believe he is innocent of this crime.

Just happens to be D unluckiest man in history really...

What are the chances of being innocent of two heinous crimes...

All the evidence and all the circumstances and it all came down to was corruption and framing and coincidence. Adding in also that he is one nasty individual...

What are the chances, eh?

RocketRaccoon

enfant terrible wrote: »

DeHaan seems to think the burn only lasted four hours for some reason.

Two witnesses said they saw the fire going strong at 7pm and still going strong at 11pm and "and according to DeHaan himself the bones look exactly like they would if Avery burned them in his pit for more than four hours."

DeHaan also says he's concerned the remains didn't retain their anatomical layout, which could only be achieved by stirring and stoking. This is ridiculous on its face. There were a rake, two hammers, shovel, etc, with charring on them, found next to the burn pit. Of course Avery was stirring and breaking up the remains as they burned. No one anywhere has claimed Avery started the fire and walked away, leaving it to burn undisturbed.

He says multiple times in his affidavit the remains look exactly as they should if Avery had a fire longer than 4 hours and stoked it, so as soon as it's pointed out the fire lasted more than 4 hours and was stoked, he'll be forced to admit of course the burn pit looks like the primary burn site.
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/037-Affidavit-of-Dr-DeHaan2.pdf

I can appreciate the effort you are putting in and will actually enjoy discussing this case with you rather than someone like walshb.

While all of that is of course a possibility, would you also agree that someone else could be responsible? Like why were human bones found in the Manitowoc quarry aswell as the Randandt quarry IIRC.

Also, if Steven did rape, shoot and murder Teresa that afternoon/early evening. Why did he then throw her in the boot of her car, drive her around for a bit and then return to burn her? Then remove her car which was spotted by a member of the public, it was called in by Colburn only to then bring it back to his yard and cover it with tarp and branches?

Mountainsandh

enfant terrible wrote: »

DeHaan seems to think the burn only lasted four hours for some reason.

Two witnesses said they saw the fire going strong at 7pm and still going strong at 11pm and "and according to DeHaan himself the bones look exactly like they would if Avery burned them in his pit for more than four hours."

DeHaan also says he's concerned the remains didn't retain their anatomical layout, which could only be achieved by stirring and stoking. This is ridiculous on its face. There were a rake, two hammers, shovel, etc, with charring on them, found next to the burn pit. Of course Avery was stirring and breaking up the remains as they burned. No one anywhere has claimed Avery started the fire and walked away, leaving it to burn undisturbed.

He says multiple times in his affidavit the remains look exactly as they should if Avery had a fire longer than 4 hours and stoked it, so as soon as it's pointed out the fire lasted more than 4 hours and was stoked, he'll be forced to admit of course the burn pit looks like the primary burn site.
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/037-Affidavit-of-Dr-DeHaan2.pdf

Quotes from Enfant Terrible's link above :

The fragmentary skeletal remains examined by Dr. Eisenberg constituted only an
estimated fraction (from 40 to 60 percent) of the total mass of expected skeletal remains
from a person of Teresa Halbach's size. (TT: 2/28:226).

From Sgt. Jost's and Wisconsin DOJ Special Agent Sturdivant's
descriptions, it appeared that the remains showed no anatomical relationship to each
other. Some remains were found outside the "burn pit" and no large bones (more
resistant to fire) were visible at all. There was not sufficient pre-excavation
documentation of the condition of the materials in the pit to establish the sequence or
time of deposit of the remains ultimately recovered from the "burn pit". There was no
assessment of fuels associated with the fire, other than describing the remains of the
steel belts and beading of burned vehicle tires.

The process of stoking a fire with additional lumber or
stirring with an implement during its active burning will cause the mechanical
destruction of the bones as they are calcined by the flames and often, considerable
10
displacement. The larger bone masses (hip joints, shoulder blades, base of skull at the
spine) will remain mostly intact even after stoking an extended cremation of an adult
body. The appearance, size, and type of bone fragments documented in Dr. Eisenberg's
forensic anthropology reports and photographs exactly mirror the fragments recovered
after bum-barrel cremations involving frequent stirring and stoking observed by this
author.

It is further my opinion that the body was not burned in the "bum pit". This is based on
the reported lack of anatomical continuity of the remains, the findings of similarly
charred/calcined fragments in bum barrels and other locations on the property, and the
absence of the more massive fragments that normally resist such exposure. I disagree
with Dr. Eisenberg's opinion that the main destruction of the body took place in that
"pit" based merely on the amounts of remains recovered from the pit compared to the
small fragments found elsewhere in two locations

Apologies for all the quotes, there is not much point in my paraphrasing the content of the above, but I do want other posters to be able to judge the value of your above post in contrast with the content of your link.

Tipsy McSwagger

retro:electro wrote: »

You literally can’t even answer the most straightforward questions. It’s hilarious.

What’s hilarious is you were on here last year convinced Avery was guilty as sin.


I'm not blinkered at all. I used to think he was innocent. My past posts on this thread will attest to that. I've read up a lot on this case and listened to various podcasts about it and it's my opinion that he did it. I'm not asking anyone to agree with me. I'm just asserting my opinion.

You've made an awful lot of assumptions there and are throwing around insults- "stupid" "ignorant" "plebs", when you know nothing about how I used to actually think he was innocent. Irony.

Maybe people just think differently to you?
Chill out.


You had a lot of people giving you stick but stuck to your guns. Now you are just part of that same group attacking someone who was exactly like you were. I duly await your reply of ‘well I watched the second season and changed my mind’.

retro:electro

But I’ve already said I think he did it or was involved? But what’s important is I don’t think he did it in the manner he was accused of doing it. Keep up.

Also, people can change their minds!

My post from earlier today:

You’re acting like most of us here haven’t done a jot of research about this show outside of being spoon fed a documentary. There’s a way to make a point where you don’t come across like a total gobshlte you know.

I’ve already said that my personal opinion leads me to believe that Steven was involved. But my personal opinion matters not when I’m being presented with a version of events that don’t fit and evidence that is suspicious at best.
The way the prosecution state how the murder happened is what leads me to believe he should be acquitted. It simply didn’t happen that way.
Not only that, but it is a matter of fact that Brendan’s confession was coerced and unconstitutional.
If you cannot see that there are serious errors, breaches and professional misconduct here then I suggest it is you who needs to open your eyes and have a second look at what you’re being told.
After all of that and you still believe these two deserve to be in jail well then I just hope you never end up on a jury.

And from a few days ago:

retro:electro wrote: »

I think Kathleen has done an amazing job. She’s exactly who you’d want on your side if you found yourself in their position. She doesn’t have to prove that Steven didn’t do it, just that someone else could have, and that she did.
Having said that, and despite all of her efforts, I’m still not convinced of his innocence. A lot of her theories seem a tad far fetched. My personal belief is that Avery did it, or was certainly involved in some way, and I’ve not yet heard or seen anything to convince me otherwise. However, I do not believe he did it in the manner he was accused of doing it. There is no evident suggesion of rape or murder in either the garage or the bedroom and so I would probably acquit him if I was on the jury.

I’m only really interested in the fight for Brendan. It’s actually scary how far down the legal rabbit hole his case has gone. What seems so straightforward to most of us has been bandied about and appealed and overturned so much that at this stage I’m not sure he has any hope of ever getting early release.

I still have two episodes to go so not finished it all yet. It’s a great addition to season one, kind of ties most things up and explains the court process really well.

I guess you weren’t as thorough in your stalking of my posts as you thought.

walshb

retro:electro wrote: »

But I’ve already said I think he did it or was involved? But what’s important is I don’t think he did it in the manner he was accused of doing it. Keep up.

Also, people can change their minds!

Do you think he committed the crime?

You are simply arguing here that the way he did it as regards the prosecution’s presentation is inaccurate, or not fully accurate?

Uncharted

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

Troll? Someone has a different opinion than you and you resort to calling them a troll. There seems to be a gang mentality in this thread where you turn on someone, call them names and then all jerk each other off.

Username obviously checks out if that's your take on it...

Gang mentality?? I never posted here in my life prior to this evening.

Also, to correct your utter craptalk,i referred to that poster as "trolling" simply because they openly admitted to having formed a full and whole opinion on the latest goings on in the case,despite the fact they hadn't even watched it!!!

retro:electro

walshb wrote: »

Do you think he committed the crime?

You are simply arguing here that the way he did it as regards the prosecution’s presentation is inaccurate, or not fully accurate?

Maybe you could answer all I’ve already asked of you before you demand any answers out of me, how’s that?

Mountainsandh

walshb wrote: »

Just happens to be D unluckiest man in history really...

What are the chances of being innocent of two heinous crimes...

All the evidence and all the circumstances and it all came down to was corruption and framing and coincidence. Adding in also that he is one nasty individual...

What are the chances, eh?

Of course the little matter of compensation for 18 years lost in jail after a crooked investigation, trial, and wrongful conviction may have been an incentive for framing and more corruption to move him out of the way.

Just sayin'.

Checkmate19

The key could no way have been behind the press. As it would have fallen down right beside the wall. It was planted. Key can't fall out that much. Also bullet and key found on the officers watch who was involved in lawsuit. For those saying jury found him guilty. Thousands of innocent people convicted in the states. Central Park five. West Memphis three. In the USA your behind the eighth ball with a public defender as most are over worked under paid.

walshb

Uncharted wrote: »

Username obviously checks out if that's your take on it...

Gang mentality?? I never posted here in my life prior to this evening.

Also, to correct your utter craptalk,i referred to that poster as "trolling" simply because they openly admitted to having formed a full and whole opinion on the latest goings on in the case,despite the fact they hadn't even watched it!!!

I have not watched season II, yet!

Does this mean I cannot contribute?

Is the thread not about season 1 as well?

Mountainsandh

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

I duly await your reply of ‘well I watched the second season and changed my mind’.

I don't see what's wrong or hilarious in that. It's rather a positive imo when someone's able to change their mind on things.

Checkmate19

Also alot of innocent people take plea deals as the sentences are so long if u lose. System is in favour of the prosecutors as they have more money available.

Tipsy McSwagger

retro:electro wrote: »

But I’ve already said I think he did it or was involved? But what’s important is I don’t think he did it in the manner he was accused of doing it. Keep up.

Also, people can change their minds!

My post from earlier today:

You’re acting like most of us here haven’t done a jot of research about this show outside of being spoon fed a documentary. There’s a way to make a point where you don’t come across like a total gobshlte you know.

I’ve already said that my personal opinion leads me to believe that Steven was involved. But my personal opinion matters not when I’m being presented with a version of events that don’t fit and evidence that is suspicious at best.
The way the prosecution state how the murder happened is what leads me to believe he should be acquitted. It simply didn’t happen that way.
Not only that, but it is a matter of fact that Brendan’s confession was coerced and unconstitutional.
If you cannot see that there are serious errors, breaches and professional misconduct here then I suggest it is you who needs to open your eyes and have a second look at what you’re being told.
After all of that and you still believe these two deserve to be in jail well then I just hope you never end up on a jury.

And from a few days ago:





I guess you weren’t as thorough in your stalking of my posts as you thought.

First off I was not stalking anyone’s posts I typed Steven into the search field because I wanted to double check on a poster who didn’t think Avery was a scumbag. I then saw your post.

Second you should know better to gang up on someone after the same thing happened to you.

walshb

retro:electro wrote: »

Maybe you could answer all I’ve already asked of you before you demand any answers out of me, how’s that?

You asked nothing of value/substance.

How come this and how come that. I cannot answer those questions. Nor can many others...

So, I take it your whole argument here is how they got the conviction as opposed to them getting the wrong men. That’s fair enough.

Checkmate19

If people think a jury gets it right. Have a look how many convictions the innocent projects have got overturned

Mountainsandh

Checkmate19 wrote: »

Also alot of innocent people take plea deals as the sentences are so long if u lose. System is in favour of the prosecutors as they have more money available.

Imagine taking a plea deal when you know you're innocent. How perverted is that ?

Checkmate19

If people think a jury gets it right. Have a look how many convictions the innocent projects have got overturned

Uncharted

walshb wrote: »

I have not watched season II, yet!

Does this mean I cannot contribute?

Is the thread not about season 1 as well?

If you are happy to be at a monumental disadvantage regarding case facts,new evidence,new police procedures,fresh revelations about witness statements and forensic science updates,then yeah...... post away.
I welcome your informed contributions.
:rolleyes:

Checkmate19

It happens regularly

Checkmate19

It happens regularly

Tipsy McSwagger

Checkmate19 wrote: »

The key could no way have been behind the press. As it would have fallen down right beside the wall. It was planted. Key can't fall out that much. Also bullet and key found on the officers watch who was involved in lawsuit. For those saying jury found him guilty. Thousands of innocent people convicted in the states. Central Park five. West Memphis three. In the USA your behind the eighth ball with a public defender as most are over worked under paid.

WM3 are guilty and admitted so in their Alford Plea.

retro:electro

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

First off I was not stalking anyone’s posts I typed Steven into the search field because I wanted to double check on a poster who didn’t think Avery was a scumbag. I then saw your post.

Second you should know better to gang up on someone after the same thing happened to you.

Asking for someone to back up their posts is not ganging up on them. Their inability to make a coherent point is not my problem. If you feel like someone is being ganged up on then report the posts and let the mods deal with it.
Also that poster landed in here insinuating we’re all brain dead morons so forgive me for not rolling out the red carpet

Mam of 4

Checkmate19 wrote: »

If people think a jury gets it right. Have a look how many convictions the innocent projects have got overturned

Or watch I Am Innocent , or better yet , watch the Kahlief Browder story , and see how that poor young mans life turned out .

walshb

Uncharted wrote: »

If you are happy to be at a monumental disadvantage regarding case facts,new evidence,new police procedures,fresh revelations about witness statements and forensic science updates,then yeah...... post away.
I welcome your informed contributions.
:rolleyes:

So with all this such clear evidence, when are you expecting Avery’s freedom?

Checkmate19

The us justice system is unfair. If your poor your up against. That's why Avery hired private. Public defenders are way overworked. Look at the one dassey got. Total moron. I think Avery is innocent. All the main evidence found after multiple search's. I don't think we will ever get a definite answer. However I think both will ever get out.

Checkmate19

The us justice system is unfair. If your poor your up against. That's why Avery hired private. Public defenders are way overworked. Look at the one dassey got. Total moron. I think Avery is innocent. All the main evidence found after multiple search's. I don't think we will ever get a definite answer. However I think both will ever get out.

Uncharted

walshb wrote: »

So with all this such clear evidence, when are you expecting Avery’s freedom?

Probably never to be honest, due to deep seeded corruption. To answer your question in honesty,when hes older and ill,maybe when he's got 6 months left to live and the state won't have to pay him tens of millions of dollars.

It's sickening but that seems to be his future.

Checkmate19

Mam of 4 wrote: »

Checkmate19 wrote: »

If people think a jury gets it right. Have a look how many convictions the innocent projects have got overturned

Or watch I Am Innocent , or better yet , watch the Kahlief Browder story , and see how that poor young mans life turned out .

Seen them any many more.

Checkmate19

Mam of 4 wrote: »

Checkmate19 wrote: »

If people think a jury gets it right. Have a look how many convictions the innocent projects have got overturned

Or watch I Am Innocent , or better yet , watch the Kahlief Browder story , and see how that poor young mans life turned out .

Seen them any many more.

retro:electro

walshb wrote: »

You asked nothing I of value/substance.

How come this and how come that. I cannot answer those questions. Nor can many others.

Sorry I didn’t realise you struggled so much with explaining your statements. Good to know.

Mam of 4

Checkmate19 wrote: »

Seen them any many more.

That's what I meant , I was agreeing with your post !
Some people are blind to the fact that there is corruption and collusion in all walks of life and in positions of authority , it's either black or white to them , no grey areas at all .

walshb

retro:electro wrote: »

Sorry I didn’t realise you struggled so much with explaining your statements. Good to know.

My “statements” are the ones that convicted two guilty men. No need to explain them. The court heard them and the jurors convicted...

The evidence was presented. It was heard and discussed and reasoned.

It’s straightforward stuff. Open and shut case...

The only mud here is the mud being slung from a desperate man and his defenders..

Thank god (for now) the U.S. authorities aren’t buying it..

retro:electro

Whenever you’re ready walshb.

retro:electro wrote: »

If you think they’re guilty then why do you think the system needs changing?

retro:electro wrote: »

Can you link us to what you’ve been reading “from both sides” that proves Brendan was involved? Thanks

RocketRaccoon

walshb wrote: »

My “statements” are the ones that convicted two guilty men. No need to explain them. The court heard them and the jurors convicted...

The evidence was presented. It was heard and discussed and reasoned.

It’s straightforward stuff. Open and shut case...

The only mud here is the mud being slung from a desperate man and his defenders..

Thank god (for now) the U.S. authorities aren’t buying it..

Gerry Conlon.

And will you please, for the good of this thread just go and watch the 2nd series and then discuss it. If you feel the same then that's fair enough but at least educate yourself enough to have a proper discussion.

Tipsy McSwagger

RocketRaccoon wrote: »

Gerry Conlon.

And will you please, for the good of this thread just go and watch the 2nd series and then discuss it. If you feel the same then that's fair enough but at least educate yourself enough to have a proper discussion.

How can you educate yourself by watching a clearly biased documentary?

walshb

retro:electro wrote: »

Whenever you’re ready walshb.

Does the system need changing? I said the word yes...

Well, maybe no...no system is perfect. It’s changing and evolving anyway as time goes on...yes, no, maybe. There is no definitively correct answer here..

Not sure what this has to do with anything...

Dassey...he was found guilty. He admitted his part...his confession was accepted in evidence..

RocketRaccoon

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

How can you educate yourself by watching a clearly biased documentary?

Because it is dealing in FACTS for the most part. Watch it and then make up your mind about this new evidence, both of you.

Tipsy McSwagger

RocketRaccoon wrote: »

Because it is dealing in FACTS for the most part. Watch it and then make up your mind about this new evidence, both of you.

For the most part?

Uncharted

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

How can you educate yourself by watching a clearly biased documentary?

You obviously haven't watched it either....


:pac:

enfant terrible

Checkmate19 wrote: »

If people think a jury gets it right. Have a look how many convictions the innocent projects have got overturned

How many don't get overturned?

RocketRaccoon

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

For the most part?

Yourself and walshb really are hilarious.

Its like someone watching 1 episode of breaking bad or the wire and deciding its crap based on just that despite not watching everything available.

walshb

RocketRaccoon wrote: »

Yourself and walshb really are hilarious.

Its like someone watching 1 episode of breaking bad or the wire and deciding its crap based on just that despite not watching everything available.

Nobody said it’s crap, just biased...

You think it’s balanced and impartial and straight down the middle? Not leaning to an acquittal/defense view?

Mountainsandh

walshb wrote: »

Nobody said it’s crap, just biased...

You think it’s balanced and impartial and straight down the middle? Not leaning to an acquittal/defense view?

But no one said you had to buy into it all !

I don't buy into it all, I'm unsure about some things KZ points at, I'm unsure whether I think the two guys are innocent or guilty.

I'm pretty sure some things were tampered with, I'm very sure the investigation was very poorly led and executed, and I'm 100% sure Kratz is a narcissistic and slimy asshole.

patsman07

Zellner's theory is that the killer planted Steven Avery's blood in the car. Cops subsequently found the car and had it moved to the junkyard. Why would this be necessary if Avery's blood was in the car?

walshb

Mountainsandh wrote: »

But no one said you had to buy into it all !

I don't buy into it all, I'm unsure about some things KZ points at, I'm unsure whether I think the two guys are innocent or guilty.

I'm pretty sure some things were tampered with, I'm very sure the investigation was very poorly led and executed, and I'm 100% sure Kratz is a narcissistic and slimy asshole.

Fair points. I’ll watch season II and give my honest view. No issue changing my opinion. After season 1 and with what I read up on I am confident that they have the right men...

walshb

patsman07 wrote: »

Zellner's theory is that the killer planted Steven Avery's blood in the car. Cops subsequently found the car and had it moved to the junkyard. Why would this be necessary if Avery's blood was in the car?

I guess to make the case against him stronger..?

Unless the cops are the killers?

Jessica Fletcher couldn’t come up with as much bull!

RocketRaccoon

I've asked this to another poster.
I'll now ask walshb and Tipsy

"If Steven did rape, shoot and murder Teresa that afternoon/early evening. Why did he then throw her in the boot of her car, drive her around for a bit and then return to burn her? Then remove her car which was spotted by a member of the public, it was called in by Colburn only to then bring it back to his yard and cover it with tarp and branches?"