Making A Murderer [Netflix - Documentary Series]

Mountainsandh

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

I honestly believe the only person who knows what fully happened is Avery. Dassey was probably told by Avery it was an accident and he needed Brendan’s help cleaning up the crime scene. Dassey is so stupid it probably only hit him a few days later what actually happened. He had no idea the hole he was digging himself into while being interviewed. I feel sorry for him tbh but it was right he got sent to prison, not for life though.

You stated in an earlier post if you took Avery out of this case there are still question marks regarding the evidence. I strongly disagree. The whole settlement Avery was looking to cash in on is the key to believing he is innocent. But to think the cops would kill an innocent woman, then plant her burnt remains under Avery’s nose is beyond preposterous.

Nahh. I think Barb and Scott know exactly what happened. And Bobby.
Brendan probably has a foggy idea of the whole thing, highly likely that Barb manipulates what Brendan has to understand and how much he should understand.

The whole family is rotten, maybe except for the old parents. All the children, and their children are accusing each other of things, they all have previous convictions for abusive behaviour and such.

I'd say they all just have issues, and are not very smart, so it's a constant back and forth of emotional blackmail.

Barb and Scott took it a whole gigantic step further by framing Steven, instead of one of their children getting caught for the murder (Bobby).
Then when the computer was being looked at, they probably thought the least likely to get in trouble in the family would be Brendan, so they hung him up instead of Bobby.

The police are possibly aware of all these goings on behind the scenes, and indicated somehow that they would play along. Picking on Steven suited them.

I wouldn't be surprised if Steven had some kind of involvement in the thing, like maybe he knew Bobby was after her and said nothing.

The bottom line really should be that if it is indeed Bobby who murdered Teresa, then himself, Barb and Scott should fall, not Steven and Brendan.

8-10

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Nahh. I think Barb and Scott know exactly what happened. And Bobby.
Brendan probably has a foggy idea of the whole thing, highly likely that Barb manipulates what Brendan has to understand and how much he should understand.

The whole family is rotten, maybe except for the old parents. All the children, and their children are accusing each other of things, they all have previous convictions for abusive behaviour and such.

I'd say they all just have issues, and are not very smart, so it's a constant back and forth of emotional blackmail.

Barb and Scott took it a whole gigantic step further by framing Steven, instead of one of their children getting caught for the murder (Bobby).
Then when the computer was being looked at, they probably thought the least likely to get in trouble in the family would be Brendan, so they hung him up instead of Bobby.

The police are possibly aware of all these goings on behind the scenes, and indicated somehow that they would play along. Picking on Steven suited them.

I wouldn't be surprised if Steven had some kind of involvement in the thing, like maybe he knew Bobby was after her and said nothing.

The bottom line really should be that if it is indeed Bobby who murdered Teresa, then himself, Barb and Scott should fall, not Steven and Brendan.

I still think Steven is probably the most likely to have done it. The whole reenactment of Bobby following her out in his car around to Q road could easily have been Steven following her if he didn't like the interaction they had at his trailer and going after her in a rage. He has prior experience of doing that. That just wasn't the State's case.

I just have issue with how the prosecution case fits. The main points that would give me reasonable doubt as a juror (I've served on 2 juries previously, 1 for sexual assault of a minor and another for murder) would be:

- Bobby's search history and hard drive images. My word they're deranged. To say that these have no evidentiary value is crazy, especially given how he was characterised as a witness. They could easily have been used as leverage - must have been borderline illegal if not definitely illegal.
- The handling of Bobby's computer evidence, being mislabeled in more than 1 document as Brendan's and having the CD retained in Fassbender's custody is something I'd like the defence to present to me as a juror.
- The coroner's story of being refused access to the site - prosecution objected it as irrelevant but as it fits the defence story they should have been allowed the witness, the prosecution can argue to the jury that she is disgruntled and have her admit to her leaving her job on cross-examination but at least then it's up to the jury to assess relevance
- The dog trail evidence and human remains found at more than 1 location in the quarry
- The witness report of the car not reported by Colburn, should have been brought up
- The planner and cellphone evidence, I don't buy either of these as being strong enough evidence but should at least have been considered
- Better opinions on the DNA and blood evidence. The mislabelling of the swab and the blood spatter don't appear to have been explored by the previous defence team


There are question marks in my mind I'd have about why some of these weren't argued better or allowed to be brought in. I'd put some of the blame on his defence team and some on prosecution tactics. I think the State clung to a version of events too early and it forced their hand at a couple of steps. He may have done it but I don't think the Jury got all the evidence and I don't think that the prosecution's story fits correctly. The fact that they prosecuted 2 people for the same murder with a different series of events is something that just boggles me about the system.

Mountainsandh

I think a more recent statement of KZellner is that Bobby and Scott's phones pinged in the same location as Teresa right before her last phone action.

Now I'm not sure, but I think Scott actually lives on the Q Highway, the one that's behind the Avery's Yard and the quarry... His house looks directly onto the Q Highway I think, either before or after the turn for Kuss road, not sure but I'd say before the turn.

edit : I have since clarified that and I was wrong about his location.

but I think the actual location(s) where he lived were also problematic for his alibi with Bobby (crossing each other on highway). (he had 2 residences, a trailer and some other place I think)

Tipsy McSwagger

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Nahh. I think Barb and Scott know exactly what happened. And Bobby.
Brendan probably has a foggy idea of the whole thing, highly likely that Barb manipulates what Brendan has to understand and how much he should understand.

The whole family is rotten, maybe except for the old parents. All the children, and their children are accusing each other of things, they all have previous convictions for abusive behaviour and such.

I'd say they all just have issues, and are not very smart, so it's a constant back and forth of emotional blackmail.

Barb and Scott took it a whole gigantic step further by framing Steven, instead of one of their children getting caught for the murder (Bobby).
Then when the computer was being looked at, they probably thought the least likely to get in trouble in the family would be Brendan, so they hung him up instead of Bobby.

The police are possibly aware of all these goings on behind the scenes, and indicated somehow that they would play along. Picking on Steven suited them.

I wouldn't be surprised if Steven had some kind of involvement in the thing, like maybe he knew Bobby was after her and said nothing.

The bottom line really should be that if it is indeed Bobby who murdered Teresa, then himself, Barb and Scott should fall, not Steven and Brendan.

You are only speculating now and have no idea what happened. Avery had the motive, no alibi, was a sick bastard, was the last person to see Teresa, talked about her in the past tense while she was listed as only a missing person, hid his number to get her out to his house, there’s tons of circumstantial evidence that points to him, his DNA is on her car. This is more than enough for a conviction.

I duly await your reply and mamof4 to thank it.

Mountainsandh

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

You are only speculating now and have no idea what happened. Avery had the motive, no alibi, was a sick bastard, was the last person to see Teresa, talked about her in the past tense while she was listed as only a missing person, hid his number to get her out to his house, there’s tons of circumstantial evidence that points to him, his DNA is on her car. This is more than enough for a conviction.

I duly await your reply and mamof4 to thank it.

Hey whatever, just read a bit more about it, and finish season 2.

That's my theory on things right now, and it's not always been, I've changed my mind a few times.

What helped define things a bit better for me is the full length phonecall with Steven, Scott and Barb. Have you listened to it ? There's also a transcript available of it online, if you prefer reading.

StringerBell

It's pretty weird to be that obsessed with thanks.

Mam of 4

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

You are only speculating now and have no idea what happened. Avery had the motive, no alibi, was a sick bastard, was the last person to see Teresa, talked about her in the past tense while she was listed as only a missing person, hid his number to get her out to his house, there’s tons of circumstantial evidence that points to him, his DNA is on her car. This is more than enough for a conviction.

I duly await your reply and mamof4 to thank it.

I thank the posts that in my opinion , make valid points .

I thought that's what the thanks function was for .

ETA ,
I thanked M's post , just as you predicted

Mountainsandh

Mam of 4 wrote: »

I thank the posts that in my opinion , make valid points .

I thought that's what the thanks function was for .

*thanks Mam of 4*


:pac:


I love thanking posts. Costs nothing, and helps remember how far you've gone in a thread.

Mountainsandh

and Tipsy I forgot to say, of course I'm speculating. That's ok too.

Tipsy McSwagger

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Hey whatever, just read a bit more about it, and finish season 2.

That's my theory on things right now, and it's not always been, I've changed my mind a few times.

What helped define things a bit better for me is the full length phonecall with Steven, Scott and Barb. Have you listened to it ? There's also a transcript available of it online, if you prefer reading.

I look forward to listening to the call

retro:electro

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

I duly await your reply and mamof4 to thank it.

At least both of them have added more to this thread than pissing all over the well informed posts of others. Get a life.

8-10

Scott said on the call that he wasn't on the property on the 31st. I don't know his whole testimony but has he always claimed that?

8-10

Scott said on the call that he wasn't on the property on the 31st. I don't know his whole testimony but has he always claimed that?

Tipsy McSwagger

retro:electro wrote: »

At least both of them have added more to this thread than pissing all over the well informed posts of others. Get a life.

You change your mind more times than your underwear, anything you say would be contradicted a while later by yourself.

retro:electro

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

You change your mind more times than your underwear, anything you say would be contradicted a while later by yourself.

I think I’ve changed my mind once. Which isn’t all that remarkable in a case like this where there is such a massive divide in opinion. I’m not too proud to admit I’ve gotten some things wrong.
But sure whatever makes you feel like you’re better than the rest of us :rolleyes:

Mountainsandh

8-10 wrote: »

Scott said on the call that he wasn't on the property on the 31st. I don't know his whole testimony but has he always claimed that?

Not sure, he reckons he arrived at whatever time Bobby was leaving. I'm going to see if I can find some of his testimonies. It'd be interesting to see also what brought him up there.

Checkmate19

One thing that i homed in on after watching Dassey full interrogation on youtube. I know there where interviews not recorded before that. Dassey says sort off without and hinting that he heard screaming when he knocked on steven's trailer. I don't know have the officers planted that in his head before these taped interviews but i found that an odd detail to mention if he didn't know about it and was been coerced.

extra gravy

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

I honestly believe the only person who knows what fully happened is Avery. Dassey was probably told by Avery it was an accident and he needed Brendan’s help cleaning up the crime scene. Dassey is so stupid it probably only hit him a few days later what actually happened. He had no idea the hole he was digging himself into while being interviewed. I feel sorry for him tbh but it was right he got sent to prison, not for life though.

You stated in an earlier post if you took Avery out of this case there are still question marks regarding the evidence. I strongly disagree. The whole settlement Avery was looking to cash in on is the key to believing he is innocent. But to think the cops would kill an innocent woman, then plant her burnt remains under Avery’s nose is beyond preposterous.

I've noticed a few of your posts now calling Dassey stupid, an idiot, the biggest idiot you've ever seen etc. I think you've a bit of a cheek calling out another post as the most disgusting one on this thread when your own ones haven't been any better. He was a socially awkward, vulnerable 16 year old with an IQ that's on the border of intellectual disability. Such youths can be easily manipulated and more compliant than their more intellectually capable peers. Of course, this doesn't mean that's he incapable of committing horrible acts but he had a right to be treated with special care as set out by the Supreme Court over the years. Is it just him you have this attitude towards or people with intellectual disabilities in general?

Mountainsandh

There are 3 interviews with Scott on that page http://www.stevenaverycase.org/police-interviews-and-interrogations/

Even though the 3 interviews ask the same questions, his answers differ. (some of the estimated times too)

He is steadfast on : going to the hospital to see his mother.
Changing clothes and preparing gear for hunting.
Heading off to hunt, and seeing Bobby's car on the road, and explaining that Bobby's allowed to hunt on the grounds at the back of his (Scott) house.
He consistently says he was hunting at his own spot between 3.00 (3.30 in one interview) until 5 pm.
Then he says he went to the Avery's to collect Barb to bring her up to the hospital to see his mother.
They come back, and he drops Barb at the Avery's, he goes home around 8pm.
She goes to his house around 8.30 pm.

Things that change :
First statement, he says when he went to the Avery's to collect Barb, he saw her standing outside Steven Avery's with one of her sons and Steven.

Second interview, he says she was in her mobile home, but he sees 2 shapes behind Steven's garage looking onto a fire, he guesses Steven and maybe a son of Barb's, can't tell which one as it's dark and they're just silhouettes.

Third interview, he's on about the fire again, and this time he's positive it was Brendan with Stephen.
In the third interview, he really lays into Steven, going on about how he behaved with Barb's children, how the whole family (except parents) hate him, saying Steven had a big influence on Brendan, took him up North a lot, and that he (Scott) got the feeling Steven was having a sexual relationship with Brendan.

In the first interview, he says himself and Barb are just friends, and that she just calls to him sometimes, and that she didn't spend the night at his house.

In the second interview, same as above.

In the third interview, he says she spent the night at his house, and basically admits they're in a relationship.

I think also in the first interview, he just waits in his car for Barb to come out.
In the other interviews, he goes inside the mobile home to fetch her, but can't say what sons were there or not there.

That's just what I can recall off the top of my head, there may be mistakes. I'm going to read Bobby's interviews now, because I was nearly sure Bobby had said he had talked to Scott, both in their vehicles, when he was on his way to hunt. Scott just said in his interviews that he saw the Blazer on the road and they waved at each other.

Tipsy McSwagger

extra gravy wrote: »

I've noticed a few of your posts now calling Dassey stupid, an idiot, the biggest idiot you've ever seen etc. I think you've a bit of a cheek calling out another post as the most disgusting one on this thread when your own ones haven't been any better. He was a socially awkward, vulnerable 16 year old with an IQ that's on the border of intellectual disability. Such youths can be easily manipulated and more compliant than their more intellectually capable peers. Of course, this doesn't mean that's he incapable of committing horrible acts but he had a right to be treated with special care as set out by the Supreme Court over the years. Is it just him you have this attitude towards or people with intellectual disabilities in general?

He’s one of the most stupidest people I’ve ever laid eyes on. I still feel sorry for him though, his uncle ruined his life. Now be a good boy and jog on.


Edit- let’s not forget he’s a convicted murderer and rapist either in the eyes of the law so I’m pretty sure the Halbach family would call him a lot worse

extra gravy

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

He’s one of the most stupidest people I’ve ever laid eyes on. I still feel sorry for him though, his uncle ruined his life. Now be a good boy and jog on.

"Jog on"...what age are you? 12? Though judging by your posts, that doesn't surprise me. One piece of advice: don't apply for the school debate team - you don't have the requisite skills or manners.

StringerBell

Worse than a rapist or a murderer? Not too many things worse you can think of in civilised society surely? Other than kiddie fiddler.

Anyway, whatever about Avery, I am still not sure if he is guilty or innocent, I am sure he was railroaded. Brendan on the other hand is collateral damage in all honesty but it is tragic that he has spent his life behind bars on the back of a dodgy confession.

Even if you say you believe his confession, which one do you believe? Which version? How can you have any faith when he is plainly just feeling around in the dark looking to guess the right answers, sometimes being spoonfed them, so that he can go home. That he thought he would be able to go home at all shows how little understanding he had of the situation and it is just ridiculous he was allowed to be interviewed under such circumstance.

Whatever SA did or did not do the law and order side of the table doesn't look very good in how they conduct themselves, there is way too much at stake though for them to ever give in here and not just financially. Imagine the amount of appeals that would be lodged, the amount of beyond a doubt scumbags who would be back on the street because of testimony or evidence that would then be compromised and used to get these people out.

You are talking about a systemic problem here and though it would have only taken a couple of guys to begin the plot to railroad Avery, there is little doubt that once it became big news and had a big spotlight put on it the higher ups in the departments would not want this stink on them so have no option to but to brazen it out come what may. Its still a big ask to consider so many people involved in a cover up and frame job but when it boils down to it, its actually not that big a number that would need to be on a need to know basis. Others can be kept in the dark and used without them needing to know everything.

I would be in favour of a retrial for both men.

Uncharted

In the light of fresh information building over the last 5years, and a superior lawyer in Avery's team tearing the old case apart(Zellner) and old evidence practically debunked,I agree that both men should be retrialed.

If they are found to be guilty,well and good.

RocketRaccoon

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

He’s one of the most stupidest people I’ve ever laid eyes on. I still feel sorry for him though, his uncle ruined his life. Now be a good boy and jog on.


Edit- let’s not forget he’s a convicted murderer and rapist either in the eyes of the law so I’m pretty sure the Halbach family would call him a lot worse

"one of the most stupidest people"

Oh the irony.

Commanchie

RocketRaccoon wrote: »

"one of the most stupidest people"

Oh the irony.

He has invented his own language, And sentence structures.

Potential Underachiever

Change your name to Pissed McStagger

Tipsy McSwagger

I’m loving it guys, keep it up. The little group of Avery lovers in here are like a Rat King scurrying everywhere, bullying posters with opposing opinions out of the thread. There will be no retrial, no release for Avery, Zellner will move on after she makes her money towards more plastic surgery, there is no smoking gun. Case Closed.

runningbuddy

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

I’m loving it guys, keep it up. The little group of Avery lovers in here are like a Rat King scurrying everywhere, bullying posters with opposing opinions out of the thread. There will be no retrial, no release for Avery, Zellner will move on after she makes her money towards more plastic surgery, there is no smoking gun. Case Closed.

Can't see Avery or Dassey ever getting out. If Dassey was released, Avery's case would automatically collapse. The state would be financially crippled with compensation.

If Avery is not guilty, he is one of the unluckiest men on the planet

Avery has a history of violence against women. "Maybe" he planned to kill TH, thinking he could get away with it after his wrongful conviction, the police under so much speculation, etc.... and it backfired on him.

Either way, I doubt we will ever get to the truth.

Tipsy McSwagger

runningbuddy wrote: »

Can't see Avery or Dassey ever getting out. If Dassey was released, Avery's case would automatically collapse. The state would be financially crippled with compensation.

If Avery is not guilty, he is one of the unluckiest men on the planet

Avery has a history of violence against women. "Maybe" he planned to kill TH, thinking he could get away with it after his wrongful conviction, the police under so much speculation, etc.... and it backfired on him.

Either way, I doubt we will ever get to the truth.

He hid his number to get Teresa out there because she was afraid of him. He talked about her in the past tense the night she went missing. He’s guilty alright and also guilty of ruining his nephews life.

PokeHerKing

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

He hid his number to get Teresa out there because she was afraid of him. He talked about her in the past tense the night she went missing. He’s guilty alright and also guilty of ruining his nephews life.

Yeah I'm sure as she drove down Avery road to Avery Auto salvage she thought " at least I'm not going to meet that Stephen Avery guy"

Go home Tipsy , you're drunk.

pixelburp

mod: I said there'd be cards. What part of "play nice" are people incapable of understanding? If you can't debate civily without resorting to insults and snark, maybe this thread isn't for you.

8-10

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

I’m loving it guys, keep it up. The little group of Avery lovers in here are like a Rat King scurrying everywhere, bullying posters with opposing opinions out of the thread. There will be no retrial, no release for Avery, Zellner will move on after she makes her money towards more plastic surgery, there is no smoking gun. Case Closed.

Does she not only get paid if he's exonerated and wins a civil case? He's a pro-bono client right? (I'm not sure how it works but I figured she was paying all legal fees)

runningbuddy

PokeHerKing wrote: »

Yeah I'm sure as she drove down Avery road to Avery Auto salvage she thought " at least I'm not going to meet that Stephen Avery guy"

Go home Tipsy , you're drunk.

Did he every give an explanation as to why he hid his number?? I can't recall although I did watch the documentary :pac:

runningbuddy

8-10 wrote: »

Does she not only get paid if he's exonerated and wins a civil case? He's a pro-bono client right? (I'm not sure how it works but I figured she was paying all legal fees)

The millions (can't remember exact figure) he was due after the initial wrongful conviction would have to be paid out for starters.

Uncharted

8-10 wrote: »

Does she not only get paid if he's exonerated and wins a civil case? He's a pro-bono client right? (I'm not sure how it works but I figured she was paying all legal fees)

I can't see Zellner cutting the Aldi vouchers out of the Sunday World anytime soon lads....

She's minted,and the publicity from the Netflix show will raise her already high profile to stratospheric heights.

Tipsy McSwagger

runningbuddy wrote: »

Did he every give an explanation as to why he hid his number?? I can't recall although I did watch the documentary :pac:

He hid his number because Teresa was afraid of him. On the day she went out to the Avery compound she thought she was going to see Avery’s sister who was selling her car.

runningbuddy

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

He hid his number because Teresa was afraid of him. On the day she went out to the Avery compound she thought she was going to see Avery’s sister who was selling her car.

Thanks Tipsy....Did Avery actually explain why he hid his number?? I don't recall ever seeing him explain that.

That poor girl.

Tipsy McSwagger

8-10 wrote: »

Does she not only get paid if he's exonerated and wins a civil case? He's a pro-bono client right? (I'm not sure how it works but I figured she was paying all legal fees)

Yes she is Pro bono, but she took the case because of its high profile. She will make a ton of money no matter what happens.

runningbuddy

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

Yes she is Pro bono, but she took the case because of its high profile. She will make a ton of money no matter what happens.

LOL, wouldn't be too worried about Zellner's finances :pac:.

Love how she comes across though. She's a fascianting character.

marklazarcovic

Has form,best ignored

Tipsy McSwagger

runningbuddy wrote: »

Thanks Tipsy....Did Avery actually explain why he hid his number?? I don't recall ever seeing him explain that.

That poor girl.

I think he said he called her and she didn’t answer so he hid his number to see if she would then answer.

You have to look at it like this, Steven Avery is a very disturbed man. He was on his own in that trailer, his girlfriend who he he was violent to was away. He was stewing, he wanted a woman, he knew of a woman that he liked, Teresa. She was afraid of him because the last time she called out he answered the door wearing only a towel. He called the magazine she worked for, he asked for her, he left his sisters name. Teresa called out there and Steven Avery admitted she was there, that was the last sighting of Teresa.

Tipsy McSwagger

runningbuddy wrote: »

LOL, wouldn't be too worried about Zellner's finances :pac:.

Love how she comes across though. She's a fascianting character.

She’s very scary looking and intimidating, I wouldn’t like her as an enemy.

runningbuddy

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

She’s very scary looking and intimidating, I wouldn’t like her as an enemy.

God no. I would like her in my corner. Not the opposite.

Does anyone else think she looks like Michael Jackson (post surgery)?

Tipsy McSwagger

runningbuddy wrote: »

God no. I would like her in my corner. Not the opposite.

Does anyone else think she looks like Michael Jackson (post surgery)?

Yup I said that in an earlier post.

runningbuddy

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

Yup I said that in an earlier post.

LOL, thought it was just me. Even though she's a hard ass lawyer. There is something quite warm/quirky about her.

Tipsy McSwagger

runningbuddy wrote: »

LOL, thought it was just me. Even though she's a hard ass lawyer. There is something quite warm/quirky about her.

I’m 2 eps into the new season and you can see how she got so many innocent men freed.

Talking of this season. If you watch it look out for anytime Kratz is on screen they play shady evil music with close ups of him smiling, when Avery is talking on the phone it’s lovely sweet music.

inforfun

runningbuddy wrote: »

God no. I would like her in my corner. Not the opposite.

Does anyone else think she looks like Michael Jackson (post surgery)?

From the 1st episode of Se02 i thought i was watching Major Crimes again when seeing Zellner.
Not just the looks, but also the way she talks.

Commanchie

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

I’m 2 eps into the new season and you can see how she got so many innocent men freed.

Talking of this season. If you watch it look out for anytime Kratz is on screen they play shady evil music with close ups of him smiling, when Avery is talking on the phone it’s lovely sweet music.

Show me a clip when SA is on the phone and Lovely sweet music is playing.

Uncharted

?? ..... This thread has disappeared down a weird rabbithole....

Mountainsandh

Uncharted wrote: »

I can't see Zellner cutting the Aldi vouchers out of the Sunday World anytime soon lads....

She's minted,and the publicity from the Netflix show will raise her already high profile to stratospheric heights.

The last guy she defended got $11 M compensation. The question is, how much did she get out of that ?
I don't think we need an answer really. Good for her, she deserves every penny she gets.