Making A Murderer [Netflix - Documentary Series]

Sunflower 27

Mountainsandh wrote: »

I was watching a video today with Pete Baetz, he was the private investigator for the defense before Zellner came on the scene. He's a local, I think he grew up in Two Rivers, so his insight is interesting.
He's in touch with Zellner but I think he's retired now.

He mentioned something in that video that had not occurred to me, but that is a "duh" moment if ever there was one :
The Manitowok county is already in deep financial trouble. If Brendan and Steven were both exonerated, they would both be owed humongous compensation money. The only way the state would be able to pay them is to collect an additional levy/tax on the people of that county. Insurances will not cover these payments if the compensation is due for an intent to induce in error. (can't remember the wording exactly, but basically when the State is proven to have acted with malevolent/dishonest intent).

So anyone of that county who voted for these corrupt people are kind of stuck into supporting them, for fear of having to fund the kitty to compensate SA and BD for millions.

That would explain a lot. I think a lot of them just don't want the bad press and want the whole thing to be forgotten.

Mountainsandh

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

That would explain a lot. I think a lot of them just don't want the bad press and want the whole thing to be forgotten.

Although from what I see of local newspapers here and there, and blogs, corruption has been rampant in that county and the few neighbouring ones, and people can be legitimately worried that some day they, their son, or their father could be caught up in it, and jailed.

This guy for example paints a damning picture of the justice system and law enforcement in WI. (page happens to be on another wrongfully convicted guy in that area, but plenty info on local corruption in the rest of the blog).

http://malcontends.blogspot.com/2013/12/wrongfully-convicted-innocent-green-bay.html

I still think Zellner's best bet is to find a "hero" that will get them out of that mess, and the money... pffff.... I really don't know how they'll get out of that one.

I'm putting hero in quotes as I think this could be a guy just as corrupt as the others that will pull the plug to save their own a$s. Who cares, as long as the circle is broken and things start to unravel. (For example the new guy elected after Schimel, whose Mum helped put SA in jail the first time round, fingers crossed).

Sunflower 27

Can someone explain why Zellner isn't allowed to test the broken headlight off Teresa's vehicle.

Anyone else think not letting the coroner look at the bones when they were found was one of the major red flags? She said that had never happened in her entire career. That judge Fox clearly was on the side of law enforcement by not allowing her to speak in court. he knew it was strong enough to sway jurors if she spoke.

Mountainsandh

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

Can someone explain why Zellner isn't allowed to test the broken headlight off Teresa's vehicle.

Anyone else think not letting the coroner look at the bones when they were found was one of the major red flags? She said that had never happened in her entire career. That judge Fox clearly was on the side of law enforcement by not allowing her to speak in court. he knew it was strong enough to sway jurors if she spoke.

Zellner simply needs access to the Rav but sure... she's still trying.

The Rav, incidentally, did not yield any readable finger prints. Now that doesn't make any sense, since Steven clearly says in one of the CASO files reports that he touched the driver's door frame while Teresa was getting him the magazine from the passenger/back seat of the car (he was waiting and talking to her by the car).

The coroner being refused access is scandalous. They said "conflict of interest" but a) she said her office has nothing to do with the law enforcement with the conflict, that a coroner acted on their own b) they didn't even bring a coroner from the other side.
They simply wanted no coroner on site.

They were after making such a right mess of the pit site, that they could justify taking no pictures of the bones : from what I've read/heard, if the scene has been tampered with, there is no requirement to take pics, and they had tampered with a shovel.

There's a strange enough bloke on youtube who's doing videos, he's a bit cracked, but anyway, he has a video about Debra Kakatsch, the coroner. What he says is that back some few years before the TH case, there was this hit and run case in Manitowok.
You may have read about it, since there were strong suspicions of wrong doing there too, and I don't think they arrested anyone for it.

So, this young fellow got runover by a car near to a night club. There were suspicions it was a law enforcement officer off duty who ran him over, but that never got proven.

Anyway your man the cracked guy reckons that the first officers to respond on the scene ran over your man again. When the coroner (Debra) arrived, they tried to convince her to ignore the fact that they'd run over the poor young fella, since he was already dead (according to them). She refused, they fell out, and she was put aside or she took leave from the job or something.

I don't want to listen to the whole thing again but it's something to that effect, I'll find you the video and post here if you fancy listening.

Look at the cut of him (I kind of like him all the same...)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAOgshN_gkw

Sunflower 27

Thanks, I had read about the nightclub incident on a Reddit thread. It doesn't surprise me.

The corruption is beyond belief, but it makes sense that framing SA as soon as possible was so routine and methodical if that is the way law enforcement rolls in that county.

So the coroner who had nothing to do with SA's lawsuit is a conflict of interest, but the officers that were deposed in SA's first wrongful conviction were ok to walk around his property for days on end.

It's utterly ridiculous.

Sunflower 27

Kratz said in his closing statement that it didn't matter if the key was planted. This shows he knew that SA's defence team had shown it was planted by Lenk

If this is the case, why was there not a retrial?. Surely planting of evidence to sway a jury should warrant the case dismissed?

Can someone please explain why Zellner is not allowed to test the broken light on the RAV4?

retro:electro

I was at David Rudolph’s event last night and he mentioned Steven Avery a few times. He didn’t say whether he believes he is innocent or not but he did say as a defence lawyer it’s not at all unheard of to come across cases where the DA have planted evidence at a scene in order to secure a conviction. He said most of the time it’s not really about trying to frame an innocent person, more so they know a certain person committed a crime but they need more proof and so in their eyes the ends justify the means. He believes the key was planted as there’s no way it was missed in the previous searches and then coincidentally found in such an obvious spot. He said he has heard from many professionals that the Averys were not liked by the cops at all long before Teresa even went missing.

Sunflower 27

retro:electro wrote: »

I was at David Rudolph’s event last night and he mentioned Steven Avery a few times. He didn’t say whether he believes he is innocent or not but he did say as a defence lawyer it’s not at all unheard of to come across cases where the DA have planted evidence at a scene in order to secure a conviction. He said most of the time it’s not really about trying to frame an innocent person, more so they know a certain person committed a crime but they need more proof and so in their eyes the ends justify the means. He believes the key was planted as there’s no way it was missed in the previous searches and then coincidentally found in such an obvious spot. He said he has heard from many professionals that the Averys were not liked by the cops at all long before Teresa even went missing.

Planting evidence for whatever reason is absolutely wrong. There should be no excuses.

Can Zellner not get a retrial off the back of that?

As for the Hallbachs refusing to believe it could be anyone else..... I just find that family very strange. The brother most certainly was complicit in planting evidence. He's just looked too frightened at times when there was talk of police tampering with evidence.

Really can't wait for all this to unravel.

8-10

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

The brother most certainly was complicit in planting evidence. He's just looked too frightened at times when there was talk of police tampering with evidence.

Wow, you have a low threshold for accepting things as fact

Looked frightened = certainly complicit

ok...

Sunflower 27

8-10 wrote: »

Wow, you have a low threshold for accepting things as fact

Looked frightened = certainly complicit

ok...

Ah now hang on, it wasn't just the looking edgy. Lots of things he said showed how blinkered he was. The footage of him being interviewed with Ryan about who was on Avery's property prior to finding the car was strange as well.

I remember him commenting on Brendan's confession interview. When asked if he'd watched it, he said no.

Believe it or not, a lot of people found his demeanor odd. My statements aren't that "out there"

8-10

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

Ah now hang on, it wasn't just the looking edgy. Lots of things he said showed how blinkered he was. The footage of him being interviewed with Ryan about who was on Avery's property prior to finding the car was strange as well.

I remember him commenting on Brendan's confession interview. When asked if he'd watched it, he said no.

Believe it or not, a lot of people found his demeanor odd. My statements aren't that "out there"

None of that comes close to concluding he was 'certainly' complicit in anything.

Demeanor being odd isn't proof of anything, just look at how Amanda Knox was treated!

Sunflower 27

8-10 wrote: »

None of that comes close to concluding he was 'certainly' complicit in anything.

Demeanor being odd isn't proof of anything, just look at how Amanda Knox was treated!

Oh and he "loves the police" . The evidence-planting police.

I believe he was complicit. 100%. Time will reveal all. Like I said, can't wait for this all to unravel.

marklazarcovic

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

Oh and he "loves the police" . The evidence-planting police.

I believe he was complicit. 100%. Time will reveal all. Like I said, can't wait for this all to unravel.

I fully believe Steven will die in prison,and it won't unravel untill then.
Gut feeling .

Sunflower 27

marklazarcovic wrote: »

I fully believe Steven will die in prison,and it won't unravel untill then.
Gut feeling .

As the net closes in, I'm hopeful someone will break to save themselves.

The corruption just goes so far up. People are protecting lives, job, reputations.

Anyone know if there has been any more details about the RAV4 being seen near Scott's property? I thought it strange it was visible there, but if it broke down because the battery died, it makes sense. Was KZ looking into who replaced the battery?

Mountainsandh

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

As the net closes in, I'm hopeful someone will break to save themselves.

The corruption just goes so far up. People are protecting lives, job, reputations.

Anyone know if there has been any more details about the RAV4 being seen near Scott's property? I thought it strange it was visible there, but if it broke down because the battery died, it makes sense. Was KZ looking into who replaced the battery?

No, I think the battery died there, after it was dumped. Some guy on youtube said it was common knowledge that several witnesses had seen that car dumped there. KZ says she has 3 for sure, presumably that including the trucker who told Colborn.

About the Rav4, I'm seeing a lot of Reddit and youtube content about the validity of how it was moved from ASY to the lab for forensic examination.
The official narrative is that when Pam found it, it was locked. Her daughter checked all the doors using a tissue.
Law enforcement guy who was to take it away to the lab confirms, all doors were locked.
(Somehow, at some stage (like afternoon/evening), a photographer calls to take pics for law enforcement, and the driver door is unlocked. Haven't checked about a LE photographer so not sure about that)

Anyway, so next morning official tow away guy calls up to take away the Rav, and it's all locked, and it's up on that bank, hard to get out. He figures he'd have to tow it somehow to where the crusher is, a bit further along, where he'd have the truck ready with the covered trailer he was going to load it into.

Ertl is the guy I think, his testimony at trial is out there somewhere.

His account becomes technical, with what wheels are locked/unlocked in the position the car is in, I think the crux of it is that the back wheels are the only ones that will move. He says he had to unbolt a shaft or something before he could unlock those wheels, then whatever way they pulled the car on the back wheels and loaded it onto the trailer further off.

Problems : there is no shaft whatever to unbolt on Toyota Rav4 according to the blog post writer + photos of the Rav in the lab garage show it facing the wrong way for a tow in on back wheels scenario.

https://www.reddit.com/r/TickTockManitowoc/comments/a0j092/know_your_rav_part_ii_retrieving_sam_william/

The lab the next morning are said to have had a key cut in order to get into it. There is no official record of when and how the key was got though, no police receipt for the transaction or anything.

mloc123

My wife is watching Season 2... I am half paying attention. There is probably 4-5 episodes worth of content in it.. not ten 60+ minute episodes worth

Mountainsandh

mloc123 wrote: »

My wife is watching Season 2... I am half paying attention. There is probably 4-5 episodes worth of content in it.. not ten 60+ minute episodes worth

Yeah, they drag on the family bits, but sure, that's some people's favourite bit I suppose.

Field east

I Have been following all the comments here and have seen all the documentary. One thing that struck me very forcefully was the fact that Stephen A was very up front in the chats/ interviews he had with the police when on his way to the hospital/ lab re giving samples. He was asked a few times if he was still ok to talk and he apparently had no problem with this. As per reports he was asked this a few times
He must have learned from his previous experience re being wrongly jailed for 15 yrs plus that it would be a VERY GOOD IDEA to have a solicitor with you before you open your mouth to THE LAW - especially the law officers in Manitoc
I am surmising that his position was that he had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the murder and all of the issues around it so he had nothing to hide so why would he need a solicitor to coach/ advise him.

Kermit.de.frog

Just finished season 2. A tough slog and way too much filler.

The story itself is intriguing but they could of squeezed everything relevant and interesting in to 5, max 6, episodes in my opinion.

I don't believe Avery will ever be released.

Mountainsandh

Field east wrote: »

I Have been following all the comments here and have seen all the documentary. One thing that struck me very forcefully was the fact that Stephen A was very up front in the chats/ interviews he had with the police when on his way to the hospital/ lab re giving samples. He was asked a few times if he was still ok to talk and he apparently had no problem with this. As per reports he was asked this a few times
He must have learned from his previous experience re being wrongly jailed for 15 yrs plus that it would be a VERY GOOD IDEA to have a solicitor with you before you open your mouth to THE LAW - especially the law officers in Manitoc
I am surmising that his position was that he had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the murder and all of the issues around it so he had nothing to hide so why would he need a solicitor to coach/ advise him.

Yeah, even up in Crivitz there is another interview where he explicitly states that he's got nothing to hide, he speaks to.his solicitor on the phone who advises to wait but he goes ahead with the interview anyway. Silly and stubborn, but all the same very unlikely to ever get coerced like Brendan was.

Even that early, only days after the events, he says "the cops are at the yard now and I suspect they're going to plant something to put me away" , or something to that effect.

NSAman

Mountainsandh wrote: »

I was watching a video today with Pete Baetz, he was the private investigator for the defense before Zellner came on the scene. He's a local, I think he grew up in Two Rivers, so his insight is interesting.
He's in touch with Zellner but I think he's retired now.

He mentioned something in that video that had not occurred to me, but that is a "duh" moment if ever there was one :
The Manitowok county is already in deep financial trouble. If Brendan and Steven were both exonerated, they would both be owed humongous compensation money. The only way the state would be able to pay them is to collect an additional levy/tax on the people of that county. Insurances will not cover these payments if the compensation is due for an intent to induce in error. (can't remember the wording exactly, but basically when the State is proven to have acted with malevolent/dishonest intent).

So anyone of that county who voted for these corrupt people are kind of stuck into supporting them, for fear of having to fund the kitty to compensate SA and BD for millions.

This seems to be the problem in a nut shell. They were on the hook in the first case for 36 million. The local Tax payers would have to fund this. Now with this second case, there seems to be even more a cover up. Does this surprise me in the least? Nope.

Prosecutors in the US will use any tactic to get a conviction, be that fair or fowl (and downright lying) as they are exempt from anything. Which I personally think is wrong.

Avery might be a rough individual. BUT, justice should be handed out equally. There are far too many vested interests in this case, there are far too many unexplained issues that will not be resolved, i honestly believe that there IS a coverup within the justice department and the police.

Sad to say it, but justice in the States sometimes is not justice.

Kingp35

Stephen Avery wins right to appeal. Interesting developments but probably still a long legal road ahead before any outcome is reached.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-47380658

Uncharted

Kingp35 wrote: »

Stephen Avery wins right to appeal. Interesting developments but probably still a long legal road ahead before any outcome is reached.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-47380658

Yet another cul de sac.

Good news for Netflix no doubt.

Muahahaha

Mountainsandh wrote: »

He mentioned something in that video that had not occurred to me, but that is a "duh" moment if ever there was one :
The Manitowok county is already in deep financial trouble. If Brendan and Steven were both exonerated, they would both be owed humongous compensation money. The only way the state would be able to pay them is to collect an additional levy/tax on the people of that county. Insurances will not cover these payments if the compensation is due for an intent to induce in error. (can't remember the wording exactly, but basically when the State is proven to have acted with malevolent/dishonest intent).

So anyone of that county who voted for these corrupt people are kind of stuck into supporting them, for fear of having to fund the kitty to compensate SA and BD for millions.

I think thats the crux of how they are being treated in Manitowok county. Avery already has a $36m award for the first stint he had in prison. That award has since been frozen. Now if this all came to a head you could concievably assume that he would get another circa $36m on top of that and also Brendan Dassy would be owed similar. Call it $105m all in for their compensation, that is a lot of money for Manitowok County to have to pay out. The population there is only 80,000 people. If Avery & Dassey get exonerated it means every household in Manitowok County is going to have to pay thousands of dollars in extra taxes to compensate them. So the residents of the entire county are now financially incentivised that they stay in prison, releasing them will hit them directly in their own pockets.

robwen

Muahahaha wrote: »

I think thats the crux of how they are being treated in Manitowok county. Avery already has a $36m award for the first stint he had in prison. That award has since been frozen. Now if this all came to a head you could concievably assume that he would get another circa $36m on top of that and also Brendan Dassy would be owed similar. Call it $105m all in for their compensation, that is a lot of money for Manitowok County to have to pay out. The population there is only 80,000 people. If Avery & Dassey get exonerated it means every household in Manitowok County is going to have to pay thousands of dollars in extra taxes to compensate them. So the residents of the entire county are now financially incentivised that they stay in prison, releasing them will hit them directly in their own pockets.

That first award wasn't frozen he settled it for $400,000 cause he needed money for legal fees, but your point still stands

the whole year inn

Is it offical he has a retrial?

retro:electro

the whole year inn wrote: »

Is it offical he has a retrial?

He won the right to appeal, which has to now be heard in front of a circuit court; who will either grant or deny a retrial

zzfh

Quiet well,quiet well...reading this whole thread in one day went quiet well.

ShineOn7

A timely reminder that Netflix "documentaries" are absolute shams when it comes to the facts and truth

youcancallmeal

ShineOn7 wrote: »

A timely reminder that Netflix "documentaries" are absolute shams when it comes to the facts and truth

Very true, it's solely entertainment by telling a 'story' with an agenda regardless of the facts. I haven't watched Trial by Media yet but I've heard there is quite a bit of revisionist storytelling in it as well.

The Nal

Remember all the people who petitioned Obama to let this guy out of jail?

What a bunch of total losers.

Mantis Toboggan

Wait has there been any update? Take it Brendan Dassey is still locked up given there's almost 0 evidence against him?

Scotty #

ShineOn7 wrote: »

A timely reminder that Netflix "documentaries" are absolute shams when it comes to the facts and truth

What did they show that wasn't factual or truthful?

youcancallmeal

Scotty # wrote: »

What did they show that wasn't factual or truthful?

It's not that the creators of Making a Murderer included nonfactual stuff it's that they left out or very briefly mention anything that didn't align with the entertaining story they were trying to tell. There is loads of articles online discussing this, here is one example

Snake Plisken

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

Wait has there been any update? Take it Brendan Dassey is still locked up given there's almost 0 evidence against him?

Don't think so just some poster spamming this thread with a thread he made about Tiger King being bull in his opinion

Scotty #

youcancallmeal wrote: »

It's not that the creators of Making a Murderer included nonfactual stuff it's that they left out or very briefly mention anything that didn't align with the entertaining story they were trying to tell. There is loads of articles online discussing this, here is one example

That's pretty far from "an absolute sham when it comes to facts or the truth" wouldn't you say? Screenrant.com is probably not the best source of info to back up your case!

I would have liked to see the whole court case, inc everything the jury saw. I don't know if SA and/or BD are innocent or guilty but I don't believe they received a fair trial.

Things like the RAV4 key being found in the mobile home after it had already been searched several times and by a cop who was not supposed to be there. SA's DNA all over the RAV4 but not a single finger print. The fact the lab bloods were contaminated by the technician (the only time she has ever tainted evidence!). The fact that the bones found were never conclusively determined to be TH's or even human for that matter. The fact that the sheriff, while giving evidence on the stand, stated that he still believed SA to be guilty of the original rape case despite DNA conclusively clearing him. The gimp assigned to defend Dassy, the press conference.... and so on and so on.

It all stinks from start to finish. So while the produces may have left out aspects of the case here and there, I don't think they left out anything hugely relevant.

Unfortunately for SA & BD they will be staying where they are. If it were ever found to be a miscarriage of justice or there was a police stitch up, it would bankrupt the state - and the state ain't for bankrupting.

youcancallmeal

Scotty # wrote: »

That's pretty far from "an absolute sham when it comes to facts or the truth" wouldn't you say? Screenrant.com is probably not the best source of info to back up your case!

I would have liked to see the whole court case, inc everything the jury saw. I don't know if SA and/or BD are innocent or guilty but I don't believe they received a fair trial.

Things like the RAV4 key being found in the mobile home after it had already been searched several times and by a cop who was not supposed to be there. SA's DNA all over the RAV4 but not a single finger print. The fact the lab bloods were contaminated by the technician (the only time she has ever tainted evidence!). The fact that the bones found were never conclusively determined to be TH's or even human for that matter. The fact that the sheriff, while giving evidence on the stand, stated that he still believed SA to be guilty of the original rape case despite DNA conclusively clearing him. The gimp assigned to defend Dassy, the press conference.... and so on and so on.

It all stinks from start to finish. So while the produces may have left out aspects of the case here and there, I don't think they left out anything hugely relevant.

Unfortunately for SA & BD they will be staying where they are. If it were ever found to be a miscarriage of justice or there was a police stitch up, it would bankrupt the state - and the state ain't for bankrupting.

I didn't say "an absolute sham when it comes to facts or the truth", that was another poster. I just meant these kind of shows are biased towards a narrative for entertainment purposes. I wouldn't be holding up screenrant to be a reliable source of information either, it was just one of the first results from a search like 'what making a murdered left out'.

Blanco100

The fact the county owed Steven Avery a massive compensation claim for wrongful imprisonment the first time (in the tens of millions was it?) is telling in his later conviction I believe.

More than likely an absolutely odious character, but locking him up was probably seen as being in the counties interest, financially. Thats the main reason its stinks for me.

Scotty #

He'd been awarded around $30M. The county appealed and in the meantime he was accused of murder. The county offered him $600k to settle and needing capital fast to mount his defence, he accepted.

Blanco100

Scotty # wrote: »

He'd been awarded around $30M. The county appealed and in the meantime he was accused of murder. The county offered him $600k to settle and needing capital fast to mount his defence, he accepted.

And how much would he be entitled to this time should it be shown he was detained wrongfully?

Point being, its in nobodies interest in that county thats its even entertained that he may not be guilty.

adrian522

ShineOn7 wrote: »

A timely reminder that Netflix "documentaries" are absolute shams when it comes to the facts and truth

Not really, there are plenty of documentaries on Netflix that are actually excellent and are certainly not "Shams".

inforfun

https://twitter.com/ZellnerLaw/status/1268230349810741251

Muahahaha

Blanco100 wrote: »

And how much would he be entitled to this time should it be shown he was detained wrongfully?

Point being, its in nobodies interest in that county thats its even entertained that he may not be guilty.

Id wondered about that before and how would it play out were he to be found not guilty in terms of costs to the county. Just looking Manitowoc County has a population of 80,000. Had he gotten the 30 million award paid out is it literally a matter of everyones property taxes being hiked way up for a few years to pay for it?

If so it seems a bizarre situation where an entire community is against any chance of him being found not guilty because it will hit them in the pockets directly. You could have people there who saw something that exonerates him but wont say it because it will cost them financially in the end.