Making A Murderer [Netflix - Documentary Series]

gavmcg92

Slightly off topic here but I want to be called for jury duty now more than ever!

Thelomen Toblackai

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

The evidence though is highly questionable. As is the way it was obtained.

Some info here on the lawsuit.


https://m.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/3xrybq/averys_lawsuit_what_was_really_at_stake_for/

From that link it suggests the insurance paid the settlement. And the individuals would only be on the hook if found guilty of illegal conduct.

They'd already been cleared of legal and ethical wrongdoing in the investigation by the state.

At best they were negligent in that investigation and if they lost or settled they would be covered. I don't see why they would be worried over criminal wrongdoing after already being investigated and cleared.

8-10

gavmcg92 wrote: »

Slightly off topic here but I want to be called for jury duty now more than ever!

I got called last January when I was something like 8 or 9 episodes into listening to Serial. Was interesting timing.

Thelomen Toblackai

gavmcg92 wrote: »

Slightly off topic here but I want to be called for jury duty now more than ever!

I dunno I'd say sitting in a courtroom for 7 weeks listening to mountains of details would be tough going.

Ageyev

Tyson Fury wrote: »

Not sure if you've heard the serial podcast but that's similar enough dealing with murder and shows the ineptitude of the police force. That podcast alone and has managed to force a retrial.

Yeah I listened to Serial. Afaik Adnan's legal team were already working on another appeal and/or an application for a retrial. I don't think Serial had an effect on the legal system.

I think it's interesting and sort of unusual (not in a had sense) how public opinion, at least online, seems to support both Avery and Dassey after a 10hour documentary. In murder cases like this many people are often baying for blood -"lock 'em up and throw away the key" kind of opinions. You see it regularly when people comment on cases. You can see it in vox pop interviews in the show where arbitrary judgements are offered on newscasts, "yeah I believe he is probably guilty" etc.

Thepoet85

Thelomen Toblackai wrote:

You could say the same about most investigations though. Kratz is an idiot but there was a lot of people involved in the investigation and the defence while arguing it was a frame weren't able to prove anything.

One thing Kratz certainly is not, is an idiot.

Ageyev

Ageyev wrote: »

Yeah I listened to Serial. Afaik Adnan's legal team were already working on another appeal and/or an application for a retrial. I don't think Serial had an effect on the legal system.

I think it's interesting and sort of unusual (not in a had sense) how public opinion, at least online, seems to support both Avery and Dassey after a 10hour documentary. In murder cases like this many people are often baying for blood -"lock 'em up and throw away the key" kind of opinions. You see it regularly when people comment on cases. You can see it in vox pop interviews in the show where arbitrary judgements are offered on newscasts, "yeah I believe he is probably guilty" etc.

I should add that the mob mentality many often have towards justice in murder cases is now being somewhat represented in comments online towards Kratz for eg. there's a "Justice for Steven and Brendan" page on Facebook with people saying all manner of bad things about Kratz, posting similar on his law firm's FB page, negative reviews on its Yelp page.

Mantis Toboggan

Ageyev wrote: »

I should add that the mob mentality many often have towards justice in murder cases is now being somewhat represented in comments online towards Kratz for eg. there's a "Justice for Steven and Brendan" page on Facebook with people saying all manner of bad things about Kratz, posting similar on his law firm's FB page, negative reviews on its Yelp page.

Yup and a 5 star rating for Averys autoshop on google maps with hundreds of "reviews"

Thelomen Toblackai

Tyson Fury wrote: »

Yup and a 5 star rating for Averys autoshop on google maps with hundreds of "reviews"

Pretty odd people are promoting the business of two men the defence was trying to put forward as other potential killers due to their violent criminal past and how they harassed females customers of the autoshop.

I'd say the entire family and business have an even worse reputation at this stage in the eyes of the local community.

2forjoy

I think Steven should have testified himself

Mantis Toboggan

Thelomen Toblackai wrote: »

Pretty odd people are promoting the business of two men the defence was trying to put forward as other potential killers

Don't think they're trying to promote them just a way to get in touch.
Just looking at the site on google earth, serious amount of cars, they done well to find the exact car in 20 minutes...

Sunflower 27

Thelomen Toblackai wrote: »

From that link it suggests the insurance paid the settlement. And the individuals would only be on the hook if found guilty of illegal conduct.

They'd already been cleared of legal and ethical wrongdoing in the investigation by the state.

At best they were negligent in that investigation and if they lost or settled they would be covered. I don't see why they would be worried over criminal wrongdoing after already being investigated and cleared.

From my reading Avery accepted a settlement because he needed to pay for his attorneys in the murder trial.

I haven't read anywhere that the county officials were individually off the hook so to speak, although obviously am open to reading more about that if you or anyone have links to it?

Sunflower 27

2forjoy wrote: »

I think Steven should have testified himself

Me too, but the guy was probably so afraid of saying tbe wrong thing. He spent 18 years in jail already when he was innocent. You can't blame the guy for having little faith in the legal system

Sunflower 27

Thepoet85 wrote: »

One thing Kratz certainly is not, is an idiot.

He's dangerous.

Sunflower 27

Thelomen Toblackai wrote: »

Pretty odd people are promoting the business of two men the defence was trying to put forward as other potential killers due to their violent criminal past and how they harassed females customers of the autoshop.

I'd say the entire family and business have an even worse reputation at this stage in the eyes of the local community.

Maybe in the local community, but certainly not on a national and international scale

Thelomen Toblackai

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

From my reading Avery accepted a settlement because he needed to pay for his attorneys in the murder trial.

I haven't read anywhere that the county officials were individually off the hook so to speak, although obviously am open to reading more about that if you or anyone have links to it?

They settled the case for 400k with the state. It was paid by their insurance. It's all in your own link.

Also states the only way they'd be on the hook for the money is if they were found guilty of illegal actions because the insurance would only cover negligence. Which they were already deemed innocent of from the state investigation.

Elmo

I haven't read the above posts.

I think the Avery's are like many families who aren't shown respect in their town, through no fault of their own the are shown to be pariahs, perhaps for a small misdemeanor or use of alcohol and then a cycle begins, they become reclusive and that odd family up the road.

I believe this happened: -

1. Halbach visited the Avery's, she's a photographer and takes her pictures and provides an invoice (TBH I don't think it matters if she enters the house).
2. She leaves and goes to the Quarry, something she does to take photos as a hobbyist.
3. There she is met by someone who knows she might be there. They have an argument and she is murdered. The murder leaves the scene.
4. At some point a Sergeant with the Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department discovers the vehicle and body. they then uses this opportunity to set up Avery.
5. Using Avery's gun they shoot the body several times, pick up any remaining bullets and shells. They burn the body and move the remains to the Avery's. Leaving some remains. Which are later used to suggest that Avery tried to move the body.

The theory has holes but then so does the prosecutions line that Halbach was shot, stabbed and burnt at the Avery's.

I'd like to know what happened Halbach's phone and camera, they found her Key, if the murderer took time to keep the key they would have also kept the camera and phone (surely more valuable to Avery).

I think Ken Kratz continued warnings about pointing the figure on upstanding law enforcement officers was completely hypocritical, here was a law enforcement agency who had already framed Avery, so their families and friends knew that they are not all that upstanding. While at the same time he used Avery's background to continually denounce him.

Sunflower 27

Thelomen Toblackai wrote: »

They settled the case for 400k with the state. It was paid by their insurance. It's all in your own link.

Also states the only way they'd be on the hook for the money is if they were found guilty of illegal actions because the insurance would only cover negligence. Which they were already deemed innocent of from the state investigation.

Are you saying there was no chance any of them would have had to pay out anything? That they were all covered? I don't mean highly unlikely or anything like that, I mean 100% they would not be liable for anything?

It appears Steven only settled with the state because he had no other way of paying his attorneys. If he hadn't agreed to settle what would have happened?

He was suing the county, hence my confusion.

Thelomen Toblackai

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

Are you saying there was no chance any of them would have had to pay out anything? That they were all covered? I don't mean highly unlikely or anything like that, I mean 100% they would not be liable for anything?

It appears Steven only settled with the state because he had no other way of paying his attorneys. If he hadn't agreed to settle what would have happened?

He was suing the county, hence my confusion.

I'm not saying 100% anything. I'm saying they'd have to be found to have committed illegal acts to be on the hook.

If your trying to fashion a motive to back up the speculation of the conspiracy and all the what ifs you'd have to use more speculation and what ifs.

Lots of speculation and what ifs there. Not much fact or evidence to back up even the motive let alone the conspiracy.

Sunflower 27

Elmo wrote: »

I haven't read the above posts.

I think the Avery's are like many families who aren't shown respect in their town, through no fault of their own the are shown to be pariahs, perhaps for a small misdemeanor or use of alcohol and then a cycle begins, they become reclusive and that odd family up the road.

I believe this happened: -

1. Halbach visited the Avery's, she's a photographer and takes her pictures and provides an invoice (TBH I don't think it matters if she enters the house).
2. She leaves and goes to the Quarry, something she does to take photos as a hobbyist.
3. There she is met by someone who knows she might be there. They have an argument and she is murdered. The murder leaves the scene.
4. At some point a Sergeant with the Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department discovers the vehicle and body. they then uses this opportunity to set up Avery.
5. Using Avery's gun they shoot the body several times, pick up any remaining bullets and shells. They burn the body and move the remains to the Avery's. Leaving some remains. Which are later used to suggest that Avery tried to move the body.

The theory has holes but then so does the prosecutions line that Halbach was shot, stabbed and burnt at the Avery's.

I'd like to know what happened Halbach's phone and camera, they found her Key, if the murderer took time to keep the key they would have also kept the camera and phone (surely more valuable to Avery).

I think Ken Kratz continued warnings about pointing the figure on upstanding law enforcement officers was completely hypocritical, here was a law enforcement agency who had already framed Avery, so their families and friends knew that they are not all that upstanding. While at the same time he used Avery's background to continually denounce him.

Mad in hindsight when we hear what happened to kratz and the domestic abuse victim. Such a hypocrite

As far as I know her camera and phone were burned with the body.

Sunflower 27

Thelomen Toblackai wrote: »

I'm not saying 100% anything. I'm saying they'd have to be found to have committed illegal acts to be on the hook.

Ok, I get it, so they may have been worried.

Mantis Toboggan

Why go to the bother of spotlessly cleaning up after the murder and burning the body but leave her car in the yard? Especially when you've got a crusher, just doesn't make sense!

marklazarcovic

The woman who 'discovered the rav4,by the grace of god' was also a private investigator as her job,and just happened to be the only one serching to be handed a camera to take pictures if she found something

marklazarcovic

Also,it matters not if avery bought chains and hancuffs,there is zero evidence or proof that the lady was tied up,assaulted in any way..even raped,no proof..just an accusation,and the confession from brendan that she was strapped to the bed and raped ,stabbed,throat slit etc...


The bedroom where guess what,zero evidence of anything taking place happened,nothing...


Bit mad ted i think

Kev1001

I got the feeling that Strang felt that Steven Avery might have done it. In his closing statements he made the point that he thought that the police had moved to create evidence against the man that they thought was guilty. He also said that Brendan Dassey was almost certainly innocent, and said that he hoped Steven had done it (instead of saying Steven was innocent too) in the post trial interview.

I like the theory put forward here:(can't post Url with so few posts)
.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/3xvpvv/alternate_theorytimeline_assuming_steven_avery/

Missymoohaa

OK binged the whole series in 24 hrs. Fantastic gripping documentary. Here's my tuppence worth, neither Steven or Brendan should have been convicted because there no evidence beyond a reasonable doubt in my opinion. You want to be damn sure someone has committed this heinous crime against an innocent woman before you take away their liberty and potential. Police interference aside the following points stood out

1. Steven had a very calm and laidback conversation with his girlfriend whilst supposedly in the middle of this horrible crime. I don't buy that, he had a 70 IQ and cannot buy into him "acting cool as a cucumber"
2. With the facilities of a crusher and incinerator at his disposal why leave so much visible evidence. He knew he would be noted as last to see her, so disposing of the Rav4 was crucial.
3. He was on the cusp of great happiness in his life, marriage, money, new found freedom after years of incarceration, why on earth would he risk that knowing the injustices of the judicial system first hand.
4. That poor poor child Brendon was brutally treated by the system, it's astounding how he couldn't even get a retrial. The child had probably the mental age of a 10yr old. Yet was tried and questioned like a responsible adult.

Lastly the American judicial system has been shown for its inadequacies and that hopefully is a good thing. Whether Steve did or didn't commit this crime, none of us knows for sure and that's the whole point. Guilty beyond reasonable doubt was not achieved by the prosecution.

Sunflower 27

Missymoohaa wrote: »

OK binged the whole series in 24 hrs. Fantastic gripping documentary. Here's my tuppence worth, neither Steven or Brendan should have been convicted because there no evidence beyond a reasonable doubt in my opinion. You want to be damn sure someone has committed this heinous crime against an innocent woman before you take away their liberty and potential. Police interference aside the following points stood out

1. Steven had a very calm and laidback conversation with his girlfriend whilst supposedly in the middle of this horrible crime. I don't buy that, he had a 70 IQ and cannot buy into him "acting cool as a cucumber"
2. With the facilities of a crusher and incinerator at his disposal why leave so much visible evidence. He knew he would be noted as last to see her, so disposing of the Rav4 was crucial.
3. He was on the cusp of great happiness in his life, marriage, money, new found freedom after years of incarceration, why on earth would he risk that knowing the injustices of the judicial system first hand.
4. That poor poor child Brendon was brutally treated by the system, it's astounding how he couldn't even get a retrial. The child had probably the mental age of a 10yr old. Yet was tried and questioned like a responsible adult.

Lastly the American judicial system has been shown for its inadequacies and that hopefully is a good thing. Whether Steve did or didn't commit this crime, none of us knows for sure and that's the whole point. Guilty beyond reasonable doubt was not achieved by the prosecution.

100% agree.

I'm curious to why neither of them can get a retrial. Who actually makes that decision and on what grounds?

I can't help but think Avery made a right show of that county's law enforcers and they wanted him to pay. It didn't matter if the real killer went free, as long as they got Avery. Where else would no-one else in tbe vicinity of a crime not at least considered a suspect?

Mantis Toboggan

What ever about Steve, I'd fully expect Brendan to be awarded a retrial following the documentary.

Missymoohaa

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

100% agree.

I'm curious to why neither of them can get a retrial. Who actually makes that decision and on what grounds?

I can't help but think Avery made a right show of that county's law enforcers and they wanted him to pay. It didn't matter if the real killer went free, as long as they got Avery. Where else would no-one else in tbe vicinity of a crime not at least considered a suspect?

Indeed, the fact that both have been refused any chance at appealing sentences is unfair while questions still remain unanswered. I believe that the reason there is no evidence against anyone else is because it simply wasn't looked for. They had their man and that was it. It would have been only right to investigate other members of Stevens family and also members of Ms. Alhachs family and close circle of friends, in the interests of fairness and justice. If after those meticulous investigations you can then eliminate them, then fine but this wasn't the case.

Thelomen Toblackai

Tyson Fury wrote: »

What ever about Steve, I'd fully expect Brendan to be awarded a retrial following the documentary.

I don't think the tv show will have any bearing on whether there's a retrial. It's already been to the appeals court and supreme court citing the issues in the show as reasons for a retrial. The show itself is just an outside look in, its nothing new. A bit of extra publicity and angry people online isn't going to swing it.

I'd hope though whatever route they were taking to make a federal case for a retrial pays off.

fin12

Missymoohaa wrote: »

OK binged the whole series in 24 hrs. Fantastic gripping documentary. Here's my tuppence worth, neither Steven or Brendan should have been convicted because there no evidence beyond a reasonable doubt in my opinion. You want to be damn sure someone has committed this heinous crime against an innocent woman before you take away their liberty and potential. Police interference aside the following points stood out

1. Steven had a very calm and laidback conversation with his girlfriend whilst supposedly in the middle of this horrible crime. I don't buy that, he had a 70 IQ and cannot buy into him "acting cool as a cucumber"
2. With the facilities of a crusher and incinerator at his disposal why leave so much visible evidence. He knew he would be noted as last to see her, so disposing of the Rav4 was crucial.
3. He was on the cusp of great happiness in his life, marriage, money, new found freedom after years of incarceration, why on earth would he risk that knowing the injustices of the judicial system first hand.
4. That poor poor child Brendon was brutally treated by the system, it's astounding how he couldn't even get a retrial. The child had probably the mental age of a 10yr old. Yet was tried and questioned like a responsible adult.

Lastly the American judicial system has been shown for its inadequacies and that hopefully is a good thing. Whether Steve did or didn't commit this crime, none of us knows for sure and that's the whole point. Guilty beyond reasonable doubt was not achieved by the prosecution.

Because he's a psycho, I actually think he murdered her because I think he thought after them wrongfully convicting him in the first place for the rape and admitting it that the cops wouldn't come after him for this crime. And he also tortured and killed animals in his youth, usually that's a sign that they will then progress on to humans... I agree with the cops that if he was never wrongly accused in the first place he probably would have killed someone before that. And anyway no matter how hard someone tries to rid of every bit of evidence, its actually now a days virtually impossible, forensics will always find something even years later, and some people are also just really stupid and sloppy trying to get rid of evidence....

Sunflower 27

Missymoohaa wrote: »

Indeed, the fact that both have been refused any chance at appealing sentences is unfair while questions still remain unanswered. I believe that the reason there is no evidence against anyone else is because it simply wasn't looked for. They had their man and that was it. It would have been only right to investigate other members of Stevens family and also members of Ms. Alhachs family and close circle of friends, in the interests of fairness and justice. If after those meticulous investigations you can then eliminate them, then fine but this wasn't the case.

Yes, they did not want anyone else investigated. What would have happened if they had say, investigated Bobby as a suspect? What would that have meant for Avery?

Is part of the reason that there can't be a retrial because there was deemed to be no other suspects?

Drexel

mad to watch this but for some reason it just wont play right for me. Everything else working fine. What a bollox

marklazarcovic

fin12 wrote:

And anyway no matter how hard someone tries to rid of every bit of evidence, its actually now a days virtually impossible, forensics will always find something even years later, and some people are also just really stupid and sloppy trying to get rid of evidence....

Especially all that blood,wonder where all that went from the matress,walls ..

Sunflower 27

This link below is quite interesting. It says that Avery's attorneys had to provide evidence that another person had motive and intent 30 days before the trial. Tbey provided a document that is very detailed but tbe judge rejected it so no other person in the trial could be considered a suspect.

Having read the document it's madness the other suspects were not considered. It is very detailed.

That judge probably despised Avery as well, bringing his professional jurisdiction into the spotlight in an incredibly negative way. That place is dodge city so can't say I'm overly surprised.

http://www.bustle.com/articles/131698-was-steven-avery-the-only-suspect-in-teresa-halbachs-death-making-a-murderer-only-showed-part

Sunflower 27

marklazarcovic wrote: »

Especially all that blood,wonder where all that went from the matress,walls ..

It was bleach. He had it on his pyjamas

marklazarcovic

Sunflower 27 wrote:

It was bleach. He had it on his pyjamas

Open and shut so ðŸ˜

fin12

Guys is one of the lawyers for Stephen Avery, did he represent Jeffrey Dahmer?

PressRun

fin12 wrote: »

Guys is one of the lawyers for Stephen Avery, did he represent Jeffrey Dahmer?

Quick Google search says no. Dahmer was defended by a man by the name of Gerald Boyle.

fin12

PressRun wrote: »

Quick Google search says no. Dahmer was defended by a man by the name of Gerald Boyle.

Oh right thanks, he just looks really like him.

DrumSteve

The guy who did the theme for this did the OST for The Last of Us...

Unbelievable stuff so far.

Missymoohaa

fin12 wrote: »

Because he's a psycho, I actually think he murdered her because I think he thought after them wrongfully convicting him in the first place for the rape and admitting it that the cops wouldn't come after him for this crime. And he also tortured and killed animals in his youth, usually that's a sign that they will then progress on to humans... I agree with the cops that if he was never wrongly accused in the first place he probably would have killed someone before that. And anyway no matter how hard someone tries to rid of every bit of evidence, its actually now a days virtually impossible, forensics will always find something even years later, and some people are also just really stupid and sloppy trying to get rid of evidence....

OK then, insightful, into your mind maybe, into the case maybe not so much. On point, I would argue, I grew up in the 70s, had two older male cousins who used to torment the family cat by throwing large stones at her, if I were to mention it to them both now they would be highly embarrassed, one a very high flying accountant who has worked all over the world and an absolute sweetheart the other an architect and a big helper with Vincent De Paul. Another friend of mine grew up in tallaght and went joy riding one night which ended up in a young women and man dying, she was devastated obviously but joyriding was quite normal in her neighbourhood. So be judgemental all you like doesn't make you a murderer.

fin12

Missymoohaa wrote: »

OK then, insightful, into your mind maybe, into the case maybe not so much. On point, I would argue, I grew up in the 70s, had two older male cousins who used to torment the family cat by throwing large stones at her, if I were to mention it to them both now they would be highly embarrassed, one a very high flying accountant who has worked all over the world and an absolute sweetheart the other an architect and a big helper with Vincent De Paul. Another friend of mine grew up in tallaght and went joy riding one night which ended up in a young women and man dying, she was devastated obviously but joyriding was quite normal in her neighbourhood. So be judgemental all you like doesn't make you a murderer.

Who am I being judgemental against people who kill and torture animals? I think most people would have a low opinion of people who do that. Obviously not everyone who does that will go on to muder humans but it is a common behavioral trait amongst alot of killers, and there's a big difference between throwing rocks at a cat then pouring gasoline on it and burning it alive, most of these killers would mutilate the animals bodies also big difference then throwing rocks at an animal.I don't really understand either what someone's career or if there involved in charity work has got to do with anything either. Are you trying to say that killers can't have high flying careers or do charity work?

Most killers/serial killers have gone undetected for such a long time because they appear normal like everyone else, they have a family, they help out in their community, have a job.

I have actually changed my opinion since I last posted, now I don't know whether he is guilty or not but the fact that he did torture and kill animals is a red flag for me.

Elmo

fin12 wrote: »

And anyway no matter how hard someone tries to rid of every bit of evidence, its actually now a days virtually impossible, forensics will always find something even years later, and some people are also just really stupid and sloppy trying to get rid of evidence....

Did you see how sloppy the Avery's are, Stephen's bedroom hadn't been tidied in months. There is no way on this earth that the murder took place in the property, absolutely no way.

The only bit of blood found was on a bullet that went through the victims head, there should have been traces of blood everywhere. According to the state this was a bloody murder.

bridgettedon

Elmo wrote: »

Did you see how sloppy the Avery's are, Stephen's bedroom hadn't been tidied in months. There is no way on this earth that the murder took place in the property, absolutely no way.

The only bit of blood found was on a bullet that went through someones head, there should have been traces of blood everywhere. According to the state this was a bloody murder.

But why was her blood on the bullet?

And second why did Brendan have bleach stains from cleaning Steven's garage that night.

Thelomen Toblackai

Missymoohaa wrote: »

OK then, insightful, into your mind maybe, into the case maybe not so much. On point, I would argue, I grew up in the 70s, had two older male cousins who used to torment the family cat by throwing large stones at her, if I were to mention it to them both now they would be highly embarrassed, one a very high flying accountant who has worked all over the world and an absolute sweetheart the other an architect and a big helper with Vincent De Paul. Another friend of mine grew up in tallaght and went joy riding one night which ended up in a young women and man dying, she was devastated obviously but joyriding was quite normal in her neighbourhood. So be judgemental all you like doesn't make you a murderer.

Not saying I agree with the other poster but his actions and history seem a world apart form the people you talk about.

Avery was 20 when he poured petrol on a cat and threw it onto a bonfire to watch it die. He served a prison sentence for it and his second stint in prison after 10 months for burglary when he was 18. He subsequently served 6 years for assaulting his cousin and possession of a firearm. He ran her off the road, pointed a gun at her head and tried to force her into his vehicle, after she accused him of exposing himself to her and neighbours. After his release for the false conviction and at the time of the murder he was being investigated for sexually abusing his niece.

One thing the judge mentioned in his sentencing was that the majority of his adult life he was committing steadily more serious crimes. This isn't some poor guy who did some regretful things when he was a kid.

fin12

Elmo wrote: »

Did you see how sloppy the Avery's are, Stephen's bedroom hadn't been tidied in months. There is no way on this earth that the murder took place in the property, absolutely no way.

The only bit of blood found was on a bullet that went through someones head, there should have been traces of blood everywhere. According to the state this was a bloody murder.

Ya I agree, I don't think the murder took place there either, the cops are obviously planted evidence there to collaborate Brendens statement. But how do we know that Stephen didn't kill her somewhere else?

bridgettedon

Thelomen Toblackai wrote: »

Not saying I agree with the other poster but his actions and history seem a world apart form the people you talk about.

Avery was 20 when he poured petrol on a cat and threw it onto a bonfire to watch it die. He served a prison sentence for it and his second stint in prison after 10 months for burglary when he was 18. He subsequently served 6 years for assaulting his cousin and possession of a firearm. He ran her off the road, pointed a gun at her head and tried to force her into his vehicle, after she accused him of exposing himself to her and neighbours. After his release for the false conviction and at the time of the murder he was being investigated for sexually abusing his niece.

One thing the judge mentioned in his sentencing was that the majority of his adult life he was committing steadily more serious crimes. This isn't some poor guy who did some regretful things when he was a kid.

I have seen this mentioned before however I couldn't find a reliable source to verify it. Do you have one.

Elmo

bridgettedon wrote: »

But why was her blood on the bullet?

And second why did Brendan have bleach stains from cleaning Steven's garage that night.

The bullet was used on her at some stage. And planted in the garage. If the bullet was actually found under something in the garage then there would have been blood surrounding it on the ground on the wall, on the under neat of what is was found under. Even if the garage had been moped that day to clean up blood, as pointed out its hard to remove evidence and I don't think the Avery's would have been capable.

I don't know if he did it or not. Or any of the Avery Family.

I think the police did a bad job, because the desperately want Stephen on something. If they were more honest it might have been different.

Thelomen Toblackai

bridgettedon wrote: »

I have seen this mentioned before however I couldn't find a reliable source to verify it. Do you have one.

There was a post on reddit with a source and details but the link doesn't seem to be working now.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/3yf48y/steve_averys_2004_alleged_sexual_assault_threat/