Will 1916 commemorations open up old wounds between Ireland and the brits?

dd972

fleet_admiral wrote: »

If there are commemorations on a Sat/Sun afternoon it might clash with their premier league teams in action

Premier League teams......English?

:pac:

haveringchick

dd972 wrote: »

Premier League teams......English?

:pac:

Yes they all support either Man U Liverpool or Chelsea and their heroes are W Rooney and J Terry and Steven Gerrard
They have those Names on the backs of the jerseys they wear under the tracksuits theyll be wearing when their protesting the presence of any members of the British Royal family at the 1916 commemoration

murphthesmurf

Well, as a Brit I can tell you that most of us know next to nothing about 1916. I don't remember ever being taught anything about the history between Ireland and England at school (left at beginning of the 90's). A lot of English people would probably be quite interested to learn about it though, I know I was. I find that 90% of irish people hold no grudge at all. But there are a few that do. I hear occasionally people refer to 'what you brits did'. This kind of thing is annoying because I had f@#k all to do with it. As for the period of the uprising, all those people are long dead. I don't agree with countries having to apologise for what their ancestors did. Britain for its colonising, the US for slavery etc. Just because this generation live on the same land as the last generation does not make them responsible for the last generations actions. If we take that point of view then how far back do we go? Do we demand apologies from the icelandics for the vikings? Italians for what the Romans did? What about the Persian empire, who do we blame for that?
History is just that, people should learn to move on. Britain did some terrible things, so has most of the rest of the world. History was like that. If Britain had not dominated then the Spanish or French would have. Would they have been any better? Probably not because that's how those countries got to be so powerful. Argentina still demands the Falklands be returned to them as its their land. Yet how did Espanic people come to be in South America and what happened to the natives?

murphthesmurf

Well, as a Brit I can tell you that most of us know next to nothing about 1916. I don't remember ever being taught anything about the history between Ireland and England at school (left at beginning of the 90's). A lot of English people would probably be quite interested to learn about it though, I know I was. I find that 90% of irish people hold no grudge at all. But there are a few that do. I hear occasionally people refer to 'what you brits did'. This kind of thing is annoying because I had f@#k all to do with it. As for the period of the uprising, all those people are long dead. I don't agree with countries having to apologise for what their ancestors did. Britain for its colonising, the US for slavery etc. Just because this generation live on the same land as the last generation does not make them responsible for the last generations actions. If we take that point of view then how far back do we go? Do we demand apologies from the icelandics for the vikings? Italians for what the Romans did? What about the Persian empire, who do we blame for that?
History is just that, people should learn to move on. Britain did some terrible things, so has most of the rest of the world. History was like that. If Britain had not dominated then the Spanish or French would have. Would they have been any better? Probably not because that's how those countries got to be so powerful. Argentina still demands the Falklands be returned to them as its their land. Yet how did Espanic people come to be in South America and what happened to the natives?

asherbassad

Richard wrote: »

It's arguable that Ireland would never have been partitioned if the rising hadn't happened. If Ireland had stayed in the UK (but with Home Rule) it could have gradually attained independence as a whole in the same way that Scotland nearly did last year.

Partition was on the cards years before the 1916 Rising.
Have you not heard of the Home Rule Bill of 1914 and how it caused chaos in Belfast among those who deigned it to be a Papist Conspiracy?

Randolph Churchill: "Ulster will fight. Ulster will be right" ??

Partition began LONG before a shinner threw a rock or burnt a barracks.

And to think that the Parliamentarian approach would have somehow yielded gentle, and cohesive better measures.....this method was attempted for generations, even to the point that a British PM was stymied (Gladstone).

Please don't insult peoples' intelligence by saying that all would have been hunky-dory if people just voted when they did that for decades and then lo and behold the gun solved the problem in 5 years.

You don't like it because it was the poor and the scum pulling the trigger (as it usually is), but that's how it goes. I doubt there were any blue-blooded aristocrats and their tea-drinking wives manning the barricades in the US in 1776 or Moscow in 1917 for that matter.

To say partition wouldn't have happened is laughable. It's also an exercise in quasi-academic guesswork.

Jimoslimos

cml387 wrote: »

You mean enhanced benefits for all Irish citizens, and a national health service. Well we sure dodged a bullet there.

Y'know I love the NHS and all but tell me, do you think that the health service in Northern Ireland is performing much better than here?

If so, I'd expect there to be a significant difference in life expectancy figures.

asherbassad

kneemos wrote: »

Truth of the matter is I doubt there's more than a few die hard shinners who give a shoite about 1916.

You might be surprised.

Take a look at 2006....the 90th Anniversary.
Take a look also at when Ireland played England in Croke Park.

I think you'll find that there was more than just a few "scumbags" acting up.

I remember the tears of some of the Ireland Rugby players as they sang before the start of the match.

Those players gave a "shoite" about the first "Bloody Sunday".

Shame you don't.

asherbassad

dotsman wrote: »

One of many, many, many events in our history, and far from the most important, nor one which we should have much pride in (nobody came out of 1916 shining!).

I'm not saying it should be ignored - it shouldn't. But I really can't understand why everybody has been hyping up the centenary over the past few years (and the next few months is going to be horrific), as if it was the be all and end all of Irish history.

Is it simply because most Irish people don't know/understand our history whereas the 1916 rising has had several movies made about it, so everybody has heard of it and has a vague knowledge of it?

Oh My!

Did some of your ancestors lose land that they robbed in Kildare? Did your alcoholic playboy great uncle get knifed by one of the servant girls he raped as he ran to the horses as the Union Jack was lowered?

Mod-Banned

asherbassad

Berserker wrote: »

An Ireland for all, eh! Isn't that what republicans say? Ireland's Anglicisation is celebrated each and every day through the use of language and the culture of a heavy majority of people in the RoI. 1916 has no relevance. The RoI in 2016 would be pretty much the same if it didn't happen.

By your logic not a single Latin American country should celebrate independence from Spain since they now speak (or were forced to speak) the same language. Nice rationale there, pal.

Perhaps Austria should have stayed with Deutschland after the Anschluss? After all, they speak German and eat sausages. Why the fcuk would they want to determine their own affairs?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

haveringchick wrote: »

Yes they all support either Man U Liverpool or Chelsea and their heroes are W Rooney and J Terry and Steven Gerrard
They have those Names on the backs of the jerseys they wear under the tracksuits theyll be wearing when their protesting the presence of any members of the British Royal family at the 1916 commemoration

Well, the FAI play their games on Friday nights so I don't see why the commemoration whathaveya can't be similarly scheduled.

asherbassad

Banjoxed wrote: »

The Ireland of 2016 without a 1916 rising would look exactly the same as the Ireland of today. Self rule in the 26 counties was going to happen anyway. In fact it was the conscription crisis of 1917-18 that galvanised Sinn Féin as a more radical alternative to the Irish Parliamentary Party and the All-for-Ireland breakaway party.

So you're trying to make people believe that the British would have just relinquished control of 26 counties out of 32 just because they thought it was the right thing to do? Is that what you're trying to say? That killing them until they negotiated was futile since they were going to liberate the country anyway? :pac:

Maybe Rhodesia and India and Kenya and Aden and Afghanistan should have just waited too.....you know, drank tea and paid taxes to the master.

Kia_Kaha

Brit living in Ireland here. I don't think so, I mean you always get the odd 'Brit's out' kn*bhead looking for trouble - you know the sort: Banners saying 'no english queen here' whilst wearing Chelsea or Man Utd tracksuits.

Most British people have no idea what happened in 1916, less would they care. As someone who obsesses over history I think it's great to celebrate such things and will be attending local commemorations (although I might don't pretend to be mute :P )

Paramite Pie

cml387 wrote: »

You mean enhanced benefits for all Irish citizens, and a national health service. Well we sure dodged a bullet there.

Ireland had the lowest living standards of the entire UK in the run up to independence - we were just one big periphery to them. A periphery that paid more in taxes than we received by the way. We'd have got sod all if we stayed as country would be running on an even smaller budget with a far worse economy (no big tech etc..).

We have far a more generous welfare system and better access to third level education, less college debt ect.. can conduct our own trade missons/foreign relations ( no scot or welshman has even been included in British trade delegations)

We wouldn't have had the crash but I don't think we'd have developed on par with the mainland UK either.

Berserker wrote: »

Wrong. Take a look at the visits of the King to Dublin at that time. The streets were filled with people celebrating the visits with Union flags in hand. The terrorists would have been dealt with, in an appropriate manner and the above would have become the norm once again. Ireland was a very peaceful country, prior to the rising. People were poor but they lived happy, safe lives, as my grandparents used to tell me.

All old people say that. My grandparents were born post independence and they said the same thing.

MPFGLB

I cannot believe some of the utter drivel posted here by some on Irish history and its significance (and i seriously doubt much learning went on at school given the posts)

Firstly you cannot judge the 1916 rising in the context of today nor understand its impact from some perceived viewpoint of it not having happened. It like saying all of France would be sophisticated today without the French Revolution... For one thing nothing happens in isolation ...Each significant moment in history projects countries forward and each has a cumulative effect on how countries and people advance. You could say the same about the US ...if they just hung around long enough they would have independence from Britain (unlike Scotland who do NOT have it- even though one poster said it would have happened for Ireland like in Scotland ???)..With that way of thinking no historical revolutions were necessary to get people where we are today ???

Next the 1916 Rising was not a failure...The signatories of the irish proclamation knew full well they would be defeated before they began.. I mean how was a small band of men going to defeat the might of the British Army...They knew defeat was a certainty (and death) but decided it was worth sacrificing their lives to propel the country to revolution. a band of poets and scholars decide to die for Irish Independence . The ignorance of those who call it a failure leaves me speechless...Obviously watching match of the day makes for success in life !! In fact it was a success or at least their deaths were (as it succeeded in what it set out to do)as indeed it did galvanize young men across the country into the fight for independence.

The cushdie viewpoint of those on here saying who can be bothered to pay it any commemoration do not deserve to title of Irishmen in comparison to Plunkett, McDonagh, Pearce, Connolly, Mac Diarmada, Ceannt, Clarke...whether you agreed with them or not there is no denying their bravery

As for Ireland (as one poster said) being a great and peaceful country up till 1916??? Home Rule had not been granted even though 100,000s of Irish fought (and died) in the British Army in the Great War ...The North was not going to allow home rule no more than it allowed 32 county Independence......People were still starving in the tenements in Dublin and other parts of the country ..My neighbor's father had the battering ram knock his and other house down because of refusing to pay extortionate rents to absentee Landlords not many years before 1916...Most Irish people still did not own their land , were still living in poverty and still emigrating in droves...(This did continue after the formation of the Free state but it takes years and generations for a country to recover centuries of oppression and those of the uprising only knew that things needed to change). Uprisings had been happening in Ireland for many years as the status quo was unfair and unsustainable...The rising that made the significant break through and set the seeds for the current republic was 1916
I for one will commemorate those brave man who believed (rightly or wrongly) that self determination was worth dying for

Junkyard Tom

Berserker wrote: »

Wrong. Take a look at the visits of the King to Dublin at that time. The streets were filled with people celebrating the visits with Union flags in hand.

A couple of thousand sycophants, cap-doffers and Irish unionists. Whoop-dee-doo.

The terrorists would have been dealt with, in an appropriate manner and the above would have become the norm once again.

The terrorists were the colonial regime and its mercenaries in British army uniforms. Oh and your ridiculous 'everything would have been brilliant' appraisal is total fantasy. Far too many brave people around willing to fight the British regime and its mercenaries.

Ireland was a very peaceful country, prior to the rising. People were poor but they lived happy, safe lives, as my grandparents used to tell me.

Bull****.

more than 100 Coercion Acts [were] passed by the Parliament of United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland between 1801 and 1922, in an attempt to establish law and order in Ireland

wikipedia.org

Fratton Fred

Grandeeod wrote: »

Interesting point and I somewhat agree. There is interest, but the school system let them down, which is why they innocently come across as ignorant. I've had those conversations. In Ireland we learned about English history and occupation of Ireland. In England you learned about the Empire and how great it was. If anglo irish history was taught in English schools, we'd all get along better than we do now.

I was never taught the empire was great, quite the opposite really.

The history curriculum when I was at school covered a lot in that time period, but the rising only had a very slight mention. WWI was obviously a much bigger concern and there was also an in depth look at the Russian revolutions. Post 1917 the treaty of Versailles took over alongside the league of nationsand a brief look at the Russian civil war.

Mussolini then takes over, the German economy and the rise of the national socialists, the Spanish civil war gets a brief mention and then Krisstallnacht, invasion of Czechoslovakia, peace in our time and the invasion of Poland.

I've no doubt the omission of Irish freedom isn't by accident, but it us an incredibly busy time as far as European history goes and Irish independence, in the overall scheme of things, was relatively minor (except to the Irish, obviously).

Avatar MIA

Mixed feelings.

On the one hand we were a colony in everything but name. Would be such if they had thought to rule countries as such by the time they started ruling Ireland.

However, imagine America if the signatories to the declaration of independence were rounded up and shot, but America still got independence five years later. Probably a far different country to present day America.

That's what happened to us. We got DeValera who practically turned the country into a theocracy. How different would our constitution have been if it had been written by the leaders of 1916. Women would almost certainly not have been treated as 'comely maidens' - progress was seriously held up there.

I also think Ireland would have been more boisterous in her attempts at independence compared to Scotland and likely fully independent, yet in the commonwealth.

However, I cannot blame those that fought for independence in 1916, and will celebrate the beginning of our independence.

Avatar MIA

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I was never taught the empire was great, quite the opposite really.

The history curriculum when I was at school covered a lot in that time period, but the rising only had a very slight mention. WWI was obviously a much bigger concern and there was also an in depth look at the Russian revolutions. Post 1917 the treaty of Versailles took over alongside the league of nationsand a brief look at the Russian civil war.

Mussolini then takes over, the German economy and the rise of the national socialists, the Spanish civil war gets a brief mention and then Krisstallnacht, invasion of Czechoslovakia, peace in our time and the invasion of Poland.

I've no doubt the omission of Irish freedom isn't by accident, but it us an incredibly busy time as far as European history goes and Irish independence, in the overall scheme of things, was relatively minor (except to the Irish, obviously).

All very true, but how could a country consign the breakaway of approximately a quarter of its territory to a paragraph.

wexandproud

The_Valeyard wrote: »

1921 was a success. The civil war was unnecessary and a failure by the anti-treaty side.

ya such a success that when we had no one else to fight we couldn't agree among ourselves so we fought each other .. our ' glorious ' leaders were not as popular as we were lead to believe they were

Fratton Fred

Avatar MIA wrote: »

All very true, but how could a country consign the breakaway of approximately a quarter of its territory to a paragraph.

England lost nothing. The UK did, but afaik, the curriculum is set locally. It may be different in NI.

c_man

Yeah, unlike every other country on the planet, Paddy shouldn't be trusted to celebrate such violent events...

Jesus Christ, see you at the Somme commemorations though eh OP?

darkpagandeath

Why would it They don't have a problem with the 4th of July.

Avatar MIA

Fratton Fred wrote: »

England lost nothing. The UK did, but afaik, the curriculum is set locally. It may be different in NI.

I never mentioned England. But if all the other events you mentioned were significant to England, then the loss of a major part of the political body that included England (and represented England) would be worthy of much more than a paragraph.

Dan_Solo

kneemos wrote: »

Truth of the matter is I doubt there's more than a few die hard shinners who give a shoite about 1916.

Die hard shinners such as Enda Kenny and FG?
http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/eng/Historical_Information/1916_Commemorations/
Yeah, good one.

AudreyHepburn

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

Will 1916 commemorations open up old wounds between Ireland and the brits at all do you think? dont you think some things best left in the past and just look forward to the future? will some issues surface again and bring about some animosity?

Only if we allow them to open.

It's the 21st Century, the occupation ended a long time ago and if people can't move on and let the past lie then the problem lies with them personally, not the 1916 Commemorations.

I'm just hoping we get more "no to foreign games" protestors dressed in a Celtic jersey. Probably someone shouting "**** the Queen", but still goes over to London for a holiday.

bobbysands81

murphthesmurf wrote: »

Britain did some terrible things, so has most of the rest of the world. History was like that. If Britain had not dominated then the Spanish or French would have. Would they have been any better?

I will be eternally grateful that Britain invaded us and showed us such mercy, kindness and humanity.

Imagine if another country had pillaged us? Then the 1,000,000 plus Irish people who the British had a hand in killing might have been far worse.

I will be eternally grateful to the British for this and will continue to doff my cap in your direction eternally.

bobbysands81

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm just hoping we get more "no to foreign games" protestors dressed in a Celtic jersey. Probably someone shouting "**** the Queen", but still goes over to London for a holiday.

Was that photo not shown to be faked by INM?

hmmm

I think the silent majority are hoping that the "wrap me in the Oirish flag" brigade have their day out, read their poems, shout in Irish into microphones about their "fenian dead", and then leave us alone for another 100 years to get on with the 21st century.

bobbysands81

hmmm wrote: »

I think the silent majority are hoping that the "wrap me in the Oirish flag" brigade have their day out, read their poems, shout in Irish into microphones about their "fenian dead", and then leave us alone for another 100 years to get on with the 21st century.

I think most normal people will take some sort of interest in commemorating an important historical moment such as the 1916 Rising.