Will 1916 commemorations open up old wounds between Ireland and the brits?

topper75

suicide_circus wrote: »

It's very sad not to mention bizarre to see people blaming partition on the 1916 rising. Is there no end to the historical gymnastics people are prepared to perform in order to denigrate their own people?

I am not a shinner, I'm not even pure bread Irish but the sniveling crawling imperial apologists on here for all to see.

We are still a very young nation. We are in our infancy. This island was never a united entity until the English involvement. This island has not had an easy time of it, subserviency has been bread into us and our willingness to genuflect at the feet of king or pope is one that we still are yet to shake off. You can see its impact in public life here quite plainly.

Unquestioning patriotism is a dangerous thing but national pride is not something to be sneered at. Its not just about green inflatable hammers and pints of stout. You'd swear 1916 was equivalent to the bombing of Hiroshima the way people go on.

Hungry now with all that bread talk.

wrt40

Nah sure we're all part of the British isles, why would they?

Orangebrigade

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

And the Protestant state for Protestant people they were given was an utter failure. A sectarian ****-hole that laid the foundations for conflict and now you're facing a future where the green and not the orange will be running the place United Ireland or not. Congratulations.

lol. I don't think you notice how daft that post is.

Support for Northern Ireland has never been stronger.

KingBrian2

I can tell many people on here have not read up on history or are unjust unfamiliar with the topic. For one the leaders of the Rising had served in the British Army and the Irish Volunteers were trained to the same standard. So this centenary is the equivalent of the French celebrating Napoleon or the Americans celebrating Washington.

Fratton Fred

KingBrian2 wrote: »

I can tell many people on here have not read up on history or are unjust unfamiliar with the topic. For one the leaders of the Rising had served in the British Army and the Irish Volunteers were trained to the same standard. So this centenary is the equivalent of the French celebrating Napoleon or the Americans celebrating Washington.

I wouldn't put the 1916 leaders in the same category as Napoleon, unless Pearse had secret plans to conquer the world and create an Irish empire.

Maybe you're thinking of Bastille day?

cml387

hmmm wrote: »

You're not a real Irishman if you don't support the rebels of 1916 and commirate them every day of your existence in this Hibernian fields of mother Ireland. The rest of you should emigrate back to your blueshirt britloving rangershirtwearing sleeveen forelocking mothership. Tis not for nothing did our celtic football club and Fenian dead die, so that the bankers and waterworkers and democrats and moslims could live amongst us and take our precious bodily fluids and cut the dole. Wake up Ireland. I've never voted for Sinn Fein, but I might this time.

(Edit - sarcasm obviously)

Put that to music and it could be the anthem of 2016. Sung by the Wolfe Tones.

KingBrian2

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I wouldn't put the 1916 leaders in the same category as Napoleon, unless Pearse had secret plans to conquer the world and create an Irish empire.

Maybe you're thinking of Bastille day?

Only in the loose sense of the aura surrounding French admiration towards a great military leader who threw out the Directorate and allowed the French army to march across the continent undefeated for decades and build a French powerhouse.

pappyodaniel

That sounds like those bullsh!t stories of Scottish people going on a rampage outside the cinema after watching Braveheart.

bobbysands81

hmmm wrote: »

You're not a real Irishman if you don't support the rebels of 1916 and commirate them every day of your existence in this Hibernian fields of mother Ireland. The rest of you should emigrate back to your blueshirt britloving rangershirtwearing sleeveen forelocking mothership. Tis not for nothing did our celtic football club and Fenian dead die, so that the bankers and waterworkers and democrats and moslims could live amongst us and take our precious bodily fluids and cut the dole. Wake up Ireland. I've never voted for Sinn Fein, but I might this time.

(Edit - sarcasm obviously)

Sarcasm or not that's an utterly senseless post.

Why do you bother? Seriously?

bobbysands81

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I wouldn't put the 1916 leaders in the same category as Napoleon, unless Pearse had secret plans to conquer the world and create an Irish empire.

Either would I.

Far more noble organising to defend your Nation against the foreign invading imperial army than being the blood thirsty aggressors motivated by unbridled greed.

Junkyard Tom

This just goes to show how embittered our resident cruiserites are when a British person resident in Ireland can have a relaxed attitude to the whole thing while they marinade in their own bitter tears.

Kia_Kaha wrote: »

Brit living in Ireland here [..] As someone who obsesses over history I think it's great to celebrate such things and will be attending local commemorations (although I might don't pretend to be mute :P )

For shame.

PressRun

I doubt the British care enough about us choosing to commemorate an event in our own history for it to "open up old wounds". Even if they did, why should anyone here be expected to care? It's our history. Do the British apologize for commemorating WWI? Does anyone expect them to and do you think they'd give a **** if anyone did? Do the French or Americans stop to think what everyone else might be thinking if they celebrate/commemorate important events in their history? Of course they don't, because their history is their own and they're not ashamed of it. They realize, in a way that some Irish people still seem to be struggling to grasp, that certain events in their history have shaped what they, as a nation, have become. Seems pretty simple.

It's hardly surprising that we've stumbled from subservient state to subservient state given the level of loathing Irish people seem to have for themselves and their own culture. It's unbelievable. Now we're not supposed to reflect on or commemorate important events in our own history (and yes, 1916 is important) because *gasp* "What will the neighbors think?!"

LordSutch

magma69 wrote: »

People from Britain generally don't give a ****e. They're not concerned with it in the slightest, in fact, I'd imagine it will pass without most Brits even knowing about. It will piss off some the West Brits and Unionists from the North.

... indeed.

Come next Easter we are hopoing to escape all the ballyhoo hullabaloo for a week in the sun.

Iwasfrozen

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

This just goes to show how embittered our resident cruiserites are when a British person resident in Ireland can have a relaxed attitude to the whole thing while they marinade in their own bitter tears.



For shame.

People don't have the same opinions as me? Shame!

Iwasfrozen

PressRun wrote: »

I doubt the British care enough about us choosing to commemorate an event in our own history for it to "open up old wounds". Even if they did, why should anyone here be expected to care? It's our history. Do the British apologize for commemorating WWI? Does anyone expect them to and do you think they'd give a **** if anyone did? Do the French or Americans stop to think what everyone else might be thinking if they celebrate/commemorate important events in their history? Of course they don't, because their history is their own and they're not ashamed of it. They realize, in a way that some Irish people still seem to be struggling to grasp, that certain events in their history have shaped what they, as a nation, have become. Seems pretty simple.

It's hardly surprising that we've stumbled from subservient state to subservient state given the level of loathing Irish people seem to have for themselves and their own culture. It's unbelievable. Now we're not supposed to reflect on or commemorate important events in our own history (and yes, 1916 is important) because *gasp* "What will the neighbors think?!"

Why do you jump from one track to another? We shouldn't heroicize the violence of 1916. Innocent people lost their lives and you want to celebrate that? No thank you. I will be commemorating the lives of all those lost on both sides and I certainly won't be lionizing suicidal terrorists.

It has nothing to do with national "self confidence" or any such claptrap.

magma69

LordSutch wrote: »

... indeed.

Come next Easter we are hopoing to escape all the ballyhoo hullabaloo for a week in the sun.

Thanks for proving my point.

hmmm

PressRun wrote: »

It's hardly surprising that we've stumbled from subservient state to subservient state given the level of loathing Irish people seem to have for themselves and their own culture.

The constant references to "self loathing" just because someone doesn't agree with your definition of "culture" is tiresome. The only subservience I've seen over the past 100 years is the subservience to the Church, which again was regarded as an indispensable part of our "culture". You can keep your culture, some of us have moved on.

2016 is going to be pretty miserable for those of us who don't spend all day worrying about whether or not we are "Irish" enough. Get some confidence in yourself and stop trying to live up to some makie uppie ideals from people who lived a 100 years ago.

bobbysands81

LordSutch wrote: »

... indeed.

Come next Easter we are hopoing to escape all the ballyhoo hullabaloo for a week in the sun.

That's the thing with some people, even a cursory scratch of the surface and the latent xenophobia comes out.

bobbysands81

hmmm wrote: »

The constant references to "self loathing" just because someone doesn't agree with your definition of "culture" is tiresome. The only subservience I've seen over the past 100 years is the subservience to the Church, which again was regarded as an indispensable part of our "culture". You can keep your culture, some of us have moved on.

2016 is going to be pretty miserable for those of us who don't spend all day worrying about whether or not we are "Irish" enough. Get some confidence in yourself and stop trying to live up to some makie uppie ideals from people who lived a 100 years ago.

Nobody is forcing you to involve yourself in any commemorations.

We've come a long way, we've a long way to go.

You're included in my definition of what it is to be Irish, I don't know why your version of being Irish seems insular, bigoted and myopic.

KingBrian2

Remembering the centenary does not end at 1916 but includes the aftermath as well. Very near to the war of Independence centenary.

Eugene Norman

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I wouldn't put the 1916 leaders in the same category as Napoleon, unless Pearse had secret plans to conquer the world and create an Irish empire.

Maybe you're thinking of Bastille day?

The 1916 rebellion is similar to the Boston tea party. The war of independence similar to the American war of independence. We had a civil war so had they.

What's missing in the US is the cultural cringe.

gormdubhgorm

I am waiting for someone to say that 1916 was racist because no black people took part!
The people who are anti-1916 commemorations seem to be thinking with today's mindset and not that of it's time.
Ireland continues to do glorious failure as we will see with the soccer team in the Euros. If it was not for the men of 1916 we would still be speaking English. (Oh wait )

murphthesmurf

bobbysands81 wrote: »

I will be eternally grateful that Britain invaded us and showed us such mercy, kindness and humanity.

Imagine if another country had pillaged us? Then the 1,000,000 plus Irish people who the British had a hand in killing might have been far worse.

I will be eternally grateful to the British for this and will continue to doff my cap in your direction eternally.

No problem, anything to help out a good neighbour.
Though if you read the whole post you would have clearly seen that was not my point.
The English will have not the slightest of bad feelings from the celebrations. The only bad feelings will be amongst the irish themselves. The English tourists that come here will be more than willing to join in and hear about what happened.
The world is a different place now. We all have our history that has shaped our countries to what they are today. We should acknowledge the past but not be sorry for it as we played no part in it.
If you have a great grandad who you found out was a murderer, does that make you a murderer? Is it in your genes and you should be kept away from others? Should you apologise for him? Of course not.

bobbysands81

murphthesmurf wrote: »

No problem, anything to help out a good neighbour.
Though if you read the whole post you would have clearly seen that was not my point.
The English will have not the slightest of bad feelings from the celebrations. The only bad feelings will be amongst the irish themselves. The English tourists that come here will be more than willing to join in and hear about what happened.
The world is a different place now. We all have our history that has shaped our countries to what they are today. We should acknowledge the past but not be sorry for it as we played no part in it.
If you have a great grandad who you found out was a murderer, does that make you a murderer? Is it in your genes and you should be kept away from others? Should you apologise for him? Of course not.

The 'English' were the aggressors, why the hell would they have 'bad feelings'? Ireland didn't seek out wars against Britain, they invaded us. It's natural that there's unresolved tension from this that has to work its way out eventually... and it will.

Ireland will only 'mature' as a Nation when we can actually discuss our past openly and honestly and lay the blame for conflict where it lies with the invading aggressor.

MPFGLB

I have lived in London for nearly 20 years and I am probably a bit older than many posters on here but I am really taken aback by the lack of understanding of the significance of a historical fight for independence from generations of oppression. To call the 1916 men terrorists thus lobbing them into the groups of Al Quaeda , ISIS , etc shows not only profound ignorance of the difference but no understanding of their motives or modus operandi. Its like saying the British Army who went to France to fight the Nazis were terrorists as people on both sides got killed. Or Castro was a terrorist because he fought the rich government& US on behalf of an oppressed people.I wonder what half arsed news and literature are people reading to get these one dimensional and slanted views, where presentism covers the need and willingness to understand the subtleties and nuances of history.

No one has to take part in the commendations if they don't want and given the amount of cynicism about our history on here it would be better if some didn't but to screw everything up to be a matter of "Get some confidence in yourself and stop trying to live up to some makie uppie ideals from people who lived a 100 years ago" totally misses the point , is myopic , immature, lacks any understanding of what a commemoration of the past is and why it is important in the self actualization and development of any nation. But worse still it shows no willingness to grasp how what has gone before can be important, worthy and defining even if humans have moved on

Maybe it s fashionable in Ireland to have the view that we should not remember or how its not cool to embrace our own history but instead chalk everything in the past down to a bunch of clergy loving, mealy mouthed, bog dwellers whose only integrity was what they made up as they went along.

Gosh I thought oppression was lifted ...seems to me its alive and well and living in the disaffected views of some people on here .Because it is oppressive to deny people their past every bit as much as it is to deny them their future...

what is most worrying for me is that I have always sang the praises of Irish education to people i have worked with in London over the years. Seems to me I need to rein that in ..

Junkyard Tom

MPFGLB wrote: »

Its like saying the British Army who went to France to might the Nazis were terrorists as people on both sides got killed.

Calling the 1916 resistance fighters 'terrorists' would be analogous to describing the WWII French Resistance fighters 'terrorists' for wanting to defeat the Nazis.

Irish Unionists, cap-doffers, and sycophants play the part of the Vichy collaborator and are enemies of independence and self-determination - losers on the wrong side of history ultimately.

Log9

Celebrating The Republic of Ireland's 1948 appearance would be more significant.

Although, I think we still need to actually live up to what being a republic is.

Things like having no public school system that's open to all. The corporatist mess between church and state. The lack of transparency in some aspects of government etc etc

We should be trying to actually make the word republic mean something. We seem to have mistaken it for just being "not-British"

Celebrating 1916 is all well and good but let's at least try to live up to the ideals of what a republic is supposed to be : government by the people, of the people, for the people and no privileged access to power for any 3rd party - church, banks, developers, whoever ... We should be all equal before the law and that absolutely has not been the case!

We still have a constitution that opens with a preamble that sounds like you're going to say mass!

PressRun

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why do you jump from one track to another? We shouldn't heroicize the violence of 1916. Innocent people lost their lives and you want to celebrate that? No thank you. I will be commemorating the lives of all those lost on both sides and I certainly won't be lionizing suicidal terrorists.

It has nothing to do with national "self confidence" or any such claptrap.

Who said anything about "celebrating"? It's a commemoration intended to reflect on an important event. You can commemorate whatever or whomever you want. I don't care.

hmmm wrote: »

The constant references to "self loathing" just because someone doesn't agree with your definition of "culture" is tiresome. The only subservience I've seen over the past 100 years is the subservience to the Church, which again was regarded as an indispensable part of our "culture". You can keep your culture, some of us have moved on.

2016 is going to be pretty miserable for those of us who don't spend all day worrying about whether or not we are "Irish" enough. Get some confidence in yourself and stop trying to live up to some makie uppie ideals from people who lived a 100 years ago.

I don't know what the relevance of the church is to this discussion, but even if this were a discussion about the church's influence on Irish culture, I have no idea why you'd think an interest in Irish history and culture is somehow exclusive to critiquing it and having a serious dialogue about it. Just because a commemoration is happening, doesn't mean that it's all meant to be confetti and celebrations. With commemorations should come reflection and a proper conversation about where we are and where we've come from. In fact, many of the plays that the Abbey will be showing throughout 2016 will be focusing on just that - how things were and how they have changed. If we did things your way, nobody would talk about the past at all, under any circumstances, and I have no idea what would be beneficial about that. History and culture is there to be engaged with.

And what any of this has to do with my own self-confidence is beyond me, tbh. Taking an interest in their own country's history and culture suddenly means someone has no self-confidence and is basing their values off historical figures. :pac:

Furthermore, nobody is forcing you to take part or to even stick around if you find it to be such a chore.

dubscottie

Keep seeing folks here saying "The Brits" invaded Australia,New Zealand, North America etc..

If it was not for the "Brits", none of your friends would be out there making mega bucks and giving you all the wonderful stories on Facebook..

And in the UK people still think Irish = IRA thanks to the actions of a small minority of arseholes in the 70's & 80's.

bobbysands81

dubscottie wrote: »

Keep seeing folks here saying "The Brits" invaded Australia,New Zealand, North America etc..

If it was not for the "Brits", none of your friends would be out there making mega bucks and giving you all the wonderful stories on Facebook..

And in the UK people still think Irish = IRA thanks to the actions of a small minority of arseholes in the 70's & 80's.

Ahhhhhh, so all those wars that your Imperial Army started were really just to civilise the natives and we should be grateful that 'the Brits' chose to invade us.

The murder of millions never sounded so good.