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Will 1916 commemorations open up old wounds between Ireland and the brits?
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Orangebrigade wrote: »Sinn Fein get paid by the likes of me to run the British state which is part of the United Kingdom.
Indeed, the British forced Unionists into power sharing with people they NEVER, NEVER, NEVER wanted to. Do you remember when the British did this too? The British army bringing Unionists and Loyalists to heel.And we won the Battle of the Boyne, a victory.
I understand your type have awful difficulty moving on from the past but have you realised that The Boyne is now here in the Republic of Ireland in 2015?0 -
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The_Valeyard wrote: »If the British establishment had its way, we would all be waving Union Jacks today. The British government was forced to the negotiating table by a band of young rebels. Who dared to be different and not part of her empire. Sure it would be a stepping stone process, but we would achieve our own democracy, economy, and right to make our own destiny.
But for a quirk of fate we would have been granted Home Rule, which would I guess have turned into full independence from Britain after several decades of negotiated & peaceful seperation, (while retaining our rightful place within the Commonwealth), but the HR side lost, and the rest is history. And now almost one hunderd years later we are still feeling the ramifications of those fine "young rebels" as you describe them, and their wreckless & feckless blood lust.
In relation to another poster, our link to sterling ended in the late 1970s.
I guess the Rising commemorations will be broadcast on all British TV channels, and the whole thing will pass off without incident. Obviously there will be some Loyalist groups up North and in Scotland who will be jumping up & down for a few days, but I fully expect the British population at large to be TV spectators of something that may well confound them
Cue, bar stool conversation South London.
...you what mate, you lost the battle? you what? you mean the rising was a failure? Yep, it was a total wipe out and the leaders were executed! So how come you paddys got beat then? well, the rising was only carried out by a minority within a minority. You what mate? so if the rising was carried out by such a small group then why are they considered as heroes today? presuming the rest of you lot didn't agree with the rebels at the time? Well, although the rising wasn't a popular rising, it became retrospectively popular after the ring leaders were executed. Ah, I see mate, martyredom and all that jazz . . . . exactly mate. These rebel jonnies didn't by any chance have any dealings with ze jerries did they? Well, actually they did, indeed they wanted the Germans to invade and attack Britain from behind, using Ireland as a back door!! Oh, now hang on a minute mister, you telling me these rebel fellas wanted to stab us in the back? fraid so. Humm, maybe then they deserved to be executed? well some may say yes, many others say execution was too harsh.
And this hypothetical discussion^ may well go on with many people in Britain next Easter, who have no incling whatsoever of Irish history, let alone the 1916 Rising.0 -
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But for a quirk of fate we would have been granted Home Rule, which would I guess have turned into full independence from Britain after several decades of negotiated & peaceful seperation, (while retaining our rightful place within the Commonwealth), but the HR side lost, and the rest is history. And now almost one hunderd years later we are still feeling the ramifications of those fine "young rebels" as you describe them, and their wreckless & feckless blood lust.
In relation to another poster, our link to sterling ended in the late 1970s.
I guess the Rising commemorations will be broadcast on all British TV channels, and the whole thing will pass off without incident. Obviously there will be some Loyalist groups up North and in Scotland who will be jumping up & down for a few days, but I fully expect the British population at large to be TV spectators of something that may well confound them
Cue, bar stool conversation South London.
...you what mate, you lost the battle? you what? you mean the rising was a failure? Yep, it was a total wipe out and the leaders were executed! So how come you paddys got beat then? well, the rising was only carried out by a minority within a minority. You what mate? so if the rising was carried out by such a small group then why are they considered as heroes today? presuming the rest of you lot didn't agree with the rebels at the time? Well, although the rising wasn't a popular rising, it became retrospectively popular after the ring leaders were executed. Ah, I see mate, martyredom and all that jazz . . . . exactly mate. These rebel jonnies didn't by any chance have any dealings with ze jerries did they? Well, actually they did, indeed they wanted the Germans to invade and attack Britain from behind, using Ireland as a back door!! Oh, now hang on a minute mister, you telling me these rebel fellas wanted to stab us in the back? fraid so. Humm, maybe then they deserved to be executed? well some may say yes, many others say execution was too harsh.
And this hypothetical discussion^ may well go on with many people in Britain next Easter, who have no incling whatsoever of Irish history, let alone the 1916 Rising.
Let me explain why the 1916 Rising was utterly justified?:
After the split in the Irish Parliamentary Party over the Kitty O'Shea scandal which destroyed the political career and led to the early death of Charles Stuart Parnell, for a decade Irish Nationalism was split between the anti-Parnell and the Parnellite factions. This division meant that no Home Rule legislation had any hope of passing through the House of Commons until the division was mended.
Opposition to the Boer War by the majority of Irish Nationalist opinion led to the reunification of the IPP under the leadership of John Redmond. The surge in support for the IPP in the next decade up until their electoral triumph in the 1910 election when they held the balance of power in the Commons led to the reluctant introduction of the Home Rule Bill in 1912 by the Liberals.
The Conservatives allied with the Unionists were in open conspiracy against the government and committed treason when they imported German arms to threaten rebellion if Home Rule was implemented.
The Irish Volunteers were founded to defend the democratic rights of the overwhelming majority of the island of Ireland from the UVF who had superior arms and training and were supported by a mutiny of British Army officers who threatened to disobey orders from the civilian government to move against the UVF in order to implement Home Rule. To add insult to injury Irish Nationalists imported modest quantities of arms they were fired on by British troops.
Redmond who had opposed imperialism in 1900 cynically betrayed Irish nationalist and republican principles by allying the Irish Volunteers renamed the National Volunteers with the British war effort in 1914. Irish Home Rule was suspended and if the Conservatives and Unionists had their way would be permanently buried. Tens of thousands of Irishmen trusted Redmond and believed in his bogus claim that Irish blood sacrifice in the trenches of World War I would be gratefully rewarded with Home Rule following the war. Their honorable bravery and sacrifice counted for nothing in the eyes of Conservatives and Unionists.
The UVF were allowed to remain intact when they formed the Ulster Division while Irish Volunteers saw their units dispersed and commanded by upper class Anglo Irish Protestant officers when they joined the Irish regiments and divisions. The IPP TD Willie Redmond brother of John Redmond realized too late that the cream of Irish manhood were being slaughtered and his pleas for Irish Home Rule in the Commons fell on deaf ears before he chose a noble death when he went over the top with his own men.
By 1916 the Irish Parliamentary Party was moribund and discredited and the National Volunteers had been decimated. Nationalism was at a low ebb except for the rump Irish Volunteers and the socialist Irish Citizen Army who refused to fight for Britain and continued to defiantly drill openly. Dublin Castle was plotting to crack down on the Irish Volunteers and round up its leadership when the rebel leaders moved first and launched the rising.
Pearse, Clarke, Connolly et al knew that if they were lifted and the movement crushed and disbanded that it was the end of the road. The Unionists would be ascendant and Ireland would remain a province of the British Empire like Wales and Scotland.
Outside of the small conspiratorial movement the majority of constitutional nationalists had practically given up on peaceful change. They had marched to the summit but had been marched back down again after a generation of fruitless effort. The Fenians of the 1860s who had once used dynamite and later became MPs in the IPP were now frustrated white bearded old men.
This is why the 1916 Rising was the only chance left for Irish Republicans and for Nationalist Ireland. A military stand by Irish republicans would keep the dream alive. The orders of the wrongheaded Professor O'Neill which led to a much smaller force turning out in Dublin and nationally prevented a much longer pitched fight. Thousands more could have turned out to fight but did not and these men were subsequently rounded up in the aftermath.
The alternative was that Ireland would have been cowed for generations and perhaps never have become an independent state.
The rebellion was a failure and has elements of farce but the sheer heroism of the leaders who went to their deaths cannot be refuted. A generation of young Irishmen and Irishwomen were angered, ashamed, embarrassed but most importantly inspired and in 1918 when this generation went to the polls they swept away the tired old IPP and returned a youthful idealistic Sinn Féin with an overwhelming majority.
The British government responded by jailing Irish leaders and TDs leaving no other recourse but armed guerrilla war by the IRA. The subsequent indiscriminate terrorisation of the Irish people by the Black and Tans revealed to even the most die-hard West Briton that Irish democratic opinion meant nothing to the British establishment.0 -
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Rightful for us, and for (what would have been) our natural trading connections with all the commonwealth countries of the globe, many of which had/have deep family connections with Ireland.
Then in 1949 it was announced that we had left the commonwealth, and that all commonwealth connections would end ... just like that!
Marvelous, not
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Boo f**king hoo.Rightful for us, and for (what would have been) our natural trading connections with all the commonwealth countries of the globe, many of which had/have deep family connections with Ireland.
Then in 1949 it was announced that we had left the commonwealth, and that all commonwealth connections would end ... just like that!
Marvelous, not0 -
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Rightful for us, and for (what would have been) our natural trading connections with all the commonwealth countries of the globe, many of which had/have deep family connections with Ireland.
Then in 1949 it was announced that we had left the commonwealth, and that all commonwealth connections would end ... just like that!
Marvelous, not
Ya...great connections a rake of bankrupt African countries :rolleyes: :pac:0 -
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tomwaterford wrote: »Ya...great connections a rake of bankrupt African countries :rolleyes: :pac:
Guess who bankrupted them?
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At the time of the rising the rebels were spat at and cursed at by Dubliners, as they were led away to meet their fate.
I do enjoy how this auld chestnut gets wheeled out like its some sort of gospel
There was no shortage of support for the rebels across the country, try reading some contemporary accounts of the rising beyond the Irish Times
That's why a popular rebeliion took place a few later and your lot were run out. Of course the remaining imperialists were just glad that they were allowed to keep their stolen lands and softened their cough accordingly. Apparently that's worn off over the years 0 -
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbNJFM63v3g
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