Airtight stoves, fact or fiction?

ht9zni1gs28crp

FrontDoor wrote: »

Do you miss the centre-piece idea of a stove/fire in a room?

What solution have you installed?

Why is it a centre piece? or rather why should it be a centre piece? Breakaway from traditional thinking on a modern solution. Think of the reasoning behind why it became a centre piece of a room....when the need/funtion is removed then form will follow....

I'm on Air source heat pump to UFH in a passive house...

BarneyMc

FrontDoor wrote: »

They are certainly compatible with both.

Just that UFH generally seems to be on all the time and the need for a stove is then removed?

I would have thought if a stove was lit then the room stats would tell the HP to remain switched off?

FrontDoor

miller_63 wrote: »

Why is it a centre piece? or rather why should it be a centre piece? Breakaway from traditional thinking on a modern solution. Think of the reasoning behind why it became a centre piece of a room....when the need/funtion is removed then form will follow....

I'm on Air source heat pump to UFH in a passive house...

I'd agree completely with that sentiment.

FrontDoor

BarneyMc wrote: »

I would have thought if a stove was lit then the room stats would tell the HP to remain switched off?

Would the heat thrown out by a stove in an air-tight, well insulated home not quickly overwhelm the place though?

Thats really my query I suppose. Do people living in such houses use their stove much? Fclauson says about 50 times in 3 years or once every 3 weeks. Miller sees no need for one.

air

UFH is often coupled with a heat pump and if the heat pump is sized correctly it will only meet the maximum heat demand about 90% of the time. This ensures it runs with best efficiency most of the time.
The downside is that you need a supplementary heat source to provide the additional heat input requried to maintain temperature in extreme conditions. Stoves are often put in to serve this purpose.
I don't think it's possible to justify stoves over simple electrical resistive heating for this application - the capital costs are very high vs the likely lifetime energy output.

On stoves with rads vs stoves with UFH, I woudl think the reason for it is this:
Stoves are a pretty uncontrolled heat source with highly variable heat output. UFH is far slower to react than rads so it's not possible to regulate room temperature with it as effectively as with rads when trying to deal with the peak of heat output from the stove.

I think the main reason people install stoves in modern homes is because they like looking at them, which is fine but they're certainly not a good option from an economic or environmental perspective.

FrontDoor

air wrote: »

UFH is often coupled with a heat pump and if the heat pump is sized correctly it will only meet the maximum heat demand about 90% of the time. This ensures it runs with best efficiency most of the time.
The downside is that you need a supplementary heat source to provide the additional heat input requried to maintain temperature in extreme conditions. Stoves are often put in to serve this purpose.
I don't think it's possible to justify stoves over simple electrical resistive heating for this application - the capital costs are very high vs the likely lifetime energy output.

On stoves with rads vs stoves with UFH, I woudl think the reason for it is this:
Stoves are a pretty uncontrolled heat source with highly variable heat output. UFH is far slower to react than rads so it's not possible to regulate room temperature with it as effectively as with rads when trying to deal with the peak of heat output from the stove.

I think the main reason people install stoves in modern homes is because they like looking at them, which is fine but they're certainly not a good option from an economic or environmental perspective.

Interesting. Thanks.

BarneyMc

air wrote: »

I think the main reason people install stoves in modern homes is because they like looking at them, which is fine but they're certainly not a good option from an economic or environmental perspective.

From an environmental perspective is it not better to burn logs (stove) locally sourced and sustainable rather than electricity (HP) generated from burning imported fossil fuels (mostly oil)?

From an economic perspective I've a bit of land and plenty of logs. Surely not to use this 'free' fuel would be a missed opportunity?

FrontDoor

BarneyMc wrote: »

From an environmental perspective is it not better to burn logs (stove) locally sourced and sustainable rather than electricity (HP) generated from burning imported fossil fuels (mostly oil)?

From an economic perspective I've a bit of land and plenty of logs. Surely not to use this 'free' fuel would be a missed opportunity?

Use the logs to run some sort of gassification boiler? Drive ufh from there?

ht9zni1gs28crp

for extra warmth just do some cooking, washing, drying or invite people around....

Our main (open plan) room sees a 1 deg temp rise within 20 mins if two or more extra people are in there. Imagine what one log on a stove would do!

In response to Barney, by offsetting the HP demand by producing enough via PV panels per annum satisfies the renewable side of things.

The whole 'free' fuel is a misnomer IMHO. You still need to collect, cut it, store it, dry it, fetch it in, clean it out. I have plenty of other stuff to be at than collecting firewood! I lived with a stove in a previous house and never again.....

If I were to employ you BarneyMc on a hourly rate what would it be?

Carawaystick

Also cutting firewood warms you twice, which no heat pump will do...

ht9zni1gs28crp

Carawaystick wrote: »

Also cutting firewood warms you twice, which no heat pump will do...

All I can hear with that quote is a grandfather heckling a young fella to keep cutting while a house up the yard has windows frozen over in the inside.... :o

monkeynuz

air wrote: »

Yes, I did preface it with "in my opinion".
Smoke will inevitably enter the room whenever you open the door of the stove to light it or add fuel.
You also can't avoid introducing ash and dust into the room when you remove the ash after a burn or get the chimeny cleaned.
One of the great advantages of modern airtight builds is how much cleaner they stay due to the filtered incoming air, you're throwing out a lot of that benefit by introducing all that dust which will also block your HRV filters quicker than without.
Finally a flue or chimney is a big cold bridge whether or not the stove is in use.

On the health impact this should be much reduced with room sealed ones however that doesn't help your neighbours if you are living in an urban area.

What a load of cobblers, the smoke into the room is eliminated by opening the air flow up before opening the door, therefore no smoke comes into the room and the issue of dust is a very minor one if at all you can avoid all but the tiniest amount of dust by just being careful, it isn't rocket science. And what harm is it doing o the neighbours?

fclauson

So is the stove an economic, environmental, practical or sentimental choice

economic - you are right - they are expensive - an electric fan would definatly be cheaper

environmental - depends - your own timber makes it so - and burning timber is supposed to be "ok" from a green perspective

practical - dust is a microscopic issue (pun intended) - but my stove has cause no heart aches in terms of dust or smoke in the time I have had it - and I enjoy splitting the logs to fill it

sentimental - this sits outside any of the other choices - a room is heartless without something to sit around while one enjoys a wee dram. A flickering fake fire from the TV might suffice, or one of those fake log flicker fires

but watching a real fire with its ever changing shapes and faces within it is hugely therapeutic and for that reason alone is why I decided to fit one.

fclauson

Why not (see pic)

MizMix

Yes it's the sentimental element that makes me really want one- I know we don't need it but I can't imagine the Xmas period without one! It's also a lovely focal point to a room.

ht9zni1gs28crp

That's the beauty of design, not everyone will agree and at the end of the day it is what you want.

But sometimes its good to challenge the 'norm' or challenge 'what everyone does' syndrome.

Good design can mean a room doesn't need a 'focal' point in itself. This can be design by layout, feel or material use....A good Architect will recognise this freedom and revel in it.

air

I'm sure stoves will be a future for a long time to come, much as horses are still bred despite the advent of cars. I think solid fuel burning of any sort in urban areas will be outlawed in the coming years however.

As regards the cobblers comment above, there is always some smoke released into the room and smoke will adversely affect the health of anyone living in the immediate vicinity.

dathi

air wrote: »

. I think solid fuel burning of any sort in urban areas will be outlawed in the coming years however.

smoke will adversely affect the health of anyone living in the immediate vicinity.

http://www.contracostatimes.com/breaking-news/ci_29002369/ban-wood-burning-heating-devices-considered-new-bay
nordic countries are looking at a similar ban after several court cases where neighbours took smoke nusance cases and won .

fclauson

on other thing to think about is that our house is Passive - but it hates the damp miserable days with no solar gain

over the past 3 or 4 weeks the house has felt (but the temp gauge has not shown) cold - the stove was a wonderful thing for changing the feeling

air

Surely heat input from any other source would have had the same effect though, not withstanding the nostalgic pleasure of the dancing flames etc.
Do you have underfloor heating also? I've found that it provides a nice radiant feeling similar to that which you get from stoves etc.

fclauson

yes I have UFH - but it only takes the floor to 21c roughly (which is why the house temp never drops)

and the UFH only runs seldomly based on the outside air temp

BarneyMc

The stove is a nice backup also in the event of a power outage.

THE DON FANUCCI

BarneyMc wrote: »

BryanF wrote: »

Mod note: Go ahead

Thanks Bryan. It's http://www.spartherm.com/en/products/stoves/

Under 'Features' you can select 'Room air sealed operation'.

It seems like the elephant in the room but if you have an airtight house but install a stove that's not then are you not fooling yourself?

what stove did you choose in the end barney? seems very grey area.

BarneyMc

THE DON FANUCCI wrote: »

what stove did you choose in the end barney? seems very grey area.

Parked for now, will decide at a later date.