Minimum Size For Apartments Reduced

Nika Bolokov

Some apartment sizes reduced by 27%

Dual aspect requirement removed.

http://www.thejournal.ie/apartments-built-ireland-changing-new-2514979-Dec2015/

Gumbo

Nika Bolokov wrote: »

Some apartment sizes reduced by 27%

Dual aspect requirement removed.

http://www.thejournal.ie/apartments-built-ireland-changing-new-2514979-Dec2015/

There was a consultation process about this months ago where they invited submissions. Many people actually agreed that smaller units would be feasible within the city centre limits.

Me, I'm in the fence.

0ph0rce0

Smaller units and a higher price.

borderlinemeath

I've been in tiny apartments in both the States and in Germany. Proper studio apartments, but the difference is that the buildings had communal laundry rooms and storage facilities, not likely to ever happen in Ireland though.

Smaller apartments are grand for single person living if that is what you wanted, but even a couple would struggle with storage space.

flutered

there should be a maximum limit on the number of them

Cilar

Most people would rather live alone than renting a room in a shared house/apt. Studio apt are very common in western Europe for students / graduate as opposed to force them share accomodation.

syklops

Shame they didn't include requirements for storage in the guidelines. Our place is pretty small, but the lack of storage really makes it a pain. We don't even have somewhere to put the hoover. Ive lived in a studio apartment in Eastern Europe, but included in the price was a small room in the basement where we could store things like suitcases and tools and anything else.

Do the guidelines still require the rooms to have washing machines, but don't require them to have any means to dry the clothes?

Idbatterim

Well they aren't going to do anything about build costs... It's still bigger than minimum sizes in the uk for example. What do these idiots expect, they won't build up and they won't reduce build costs. So this is one area that made sense to make a move on. What's ideal? The outrageous costs of a 1 bed currently, the kips that are being let out, having to share into your 30's? If you don't want a smaller unit, choose from one of the options currently available. No one has a gun to anyone's head, more choice can only be a good thing in my opinion...

riclad

it,ll reduce the cost of building,
i bet it,ll make no difference to the sale price,
Builders know how to build apartments ,
there,s no need to have windows in every side ,or every wall .
AS long as there s large windows on one or 2 walls ,
depending on the layout of the building .
my friend lives in a apartment block,
There,s a outside building with 10 washing ,machines , and dryers in it for
any resident to use .
She has plenty of storage space in her 1bed apartment .
We need more units built for single people ,
the modern trend is more people living alone .
The price is decided by market forces , demand and the lending policy of the banks .
housing density rules also effect house prices .

Idbatterim

it,ll reduce the cost of building,
i bet it,ll make no difference to the sale price,

You would hope it would reduce the sale price, but it may not. But it should increase supply, which should help keep inflation down, because at the moment, there is nowhere near enough housing being built in Dublin.

In terms of being a developer, I can see exactly where they are coming from, if you are making virtually nothing or very little on a development, why would you bother building now?

The regulations were OTT here, those drawing them up sure as hell arent on the kind of money where they need to worry about living in a studio or with others etc!

khamilto

If a 1bed costs €300,000 and a 2bed €375.000, I would suggest that as studios come on stream they will nudge toward 1bed prices, 1beds will nudge toward 2beds, and all the way up.

Lest we forget, it isn't that supply is less than demand: it's that there is no supply and about 10 years worth of demand (Dublin has been running at an undersupply since at least the mid 2005's).

Build them big and build them tall, standards exist for a reason and I had hoped that we as a nation had learned our lesson from abandoning standards because of seemingly exigent circumstances.

@Cilar: Most people would prefer to live in a penthouse than in a studio apartment. I am as unsure about what relevance that has to this thread as I am about your statement. Should we change the guidelines so that only penthouses (i.e. terraced bungalows) are built?

MarkAnthony

The sizes listed are plenty tbh. No one is forcing anyone to buy an apartment of X size. There are plenty of affordable houses within 30 minutes or so commute of the CC.

Eric Cartman

insulation requirements should have been priority 1. Its the biggest issue in apartments in Ireland. You should be able to drop a mug on wooden floors and nobody be able to hear a thing.

riclad

Sound and heat insulation standards are very important ,
when you are living close to others in apartments .
The present system of self inspection by builders is not working,
someone just signs a form this building is up to standard,
as per the architects plan .
there should be random checks by inspectors when apartments are being built.
IS the insulation up to standard ,are fire doors installed properly .
IS the building being built as in the plans sent to the council .

it s quite possible to build high density apartments up to 10 storeys ,
to a high standard ,
we need more building inspectors in dublin ,
more funding for councils ,
most new buildings are never inspected until a problem is found .
The good thing they have increased the size of 2 bed units ,
and they want a mixture of 1-2 bed units in a building .
Whats the difference between a 1 bed studio vs a 1bed apartment .
Is a studio part of a house that has its own bathroom and entrance ?

khamilto

MarkAnthony wrote: »

The sizes listed are plenty tbh. No one is forcing anyone to buy an apartment of X size. There are plenty of affordable houses within 30 minutes or so commute of the CC.

Can you find a plan online for a 40sqm studio apartment with more storage than a double wardrobe and perhaps (if lucky), one small general purpose cupboard?

One that has a small room for a boiler/washer dryer, so you don't have to listen to a spin cycle from a maximum of about 15 feet away? One that has somewhere for a mop, a hoover, an empty suitcase, perhaps a few cardboard boxes of bric a brac? How about a small artificial christmas tree and some rudimentary decorations? How do you feel about old keepsakes and memoribilia because if you like them a studio isn't for you?

Etc.

Also, would love to see all these affordable houses within a 30minute commute. Apartments in the city centre look relatively good value even compared to places like Firhouse or the nicer areas of Tallaght - and they are both 60-75mins commute.

caviardreams

In fairness - the requirement of 90m for a 2 bed was very high. A well-laid out 2 bed of between 68-75 can work very well (good size store cupboards, good proportions etc.), and is arguably the equivalent of up to a 80m house due to layout efficiencies/no stairs etc. There are lots of small 2 bed terrace/townhouses in Dublin around the 56-65m size and nobody ever says they are unfit for living in/shoeboxes etc.

MarkAnthony

khamilto wrote: »

Can you find a plan online for a 40sqm studio apartment with more storage than a double wardrobe and perhaps (if lucky), one small general purpose cupboard?

One that has a small room for a boiler/washer dryer, so you don't have to listen to a spin cycle from a maximum of about 15 feet away? One that has somewhere for a mop, a hoover, an empty suitcase, perhaps a few cardboard boxes of bric a brac? How about a small artificial christmas tree and some rudimentary decorations? How do you feel about old keepsakes and memoribilia because if you like them a studio isn't for you?

Etc.

Also, would love to see all these affordable houses within a 30minute commute. Apartments in the city centre look relatively good value even compared to places like Firhouse or the nicer areas of Tallaght - and they are both 60-75mins commute.

44Sqm 2 bedroom apartment - perfectly livable. Although I do think 60sq m would be a more sensible limit. 75Sqm is plenty.

45Sqm in a one bed is again plenty, especially with decent insulation. Example here. A bit pokey but one one is forcing people into buying cheaper end apartments in or very close to the CC.

111Sqm 3 bedroom terrace - less than 30 mins from Pearse, door to door. 220K - just under 200K mortgage required from a FTB, meaning a couple would need to be on just under 60K to afford it which is below the industry average wage for the pair of them.

khamilto

MarkAnthony wrote: »

44Sqm 2 bedroom apartment - perfectly livable. Although I do think 60sq m would be a more sensible limit. 75Sqm is plenty.

How can you say it is perfectly livable when it only has pictures of one room, with no storage and a kitchen that quite genuinely only appears to barely fit one person standing in it?

45Sqm in a one bed is again plenty, especially with decent insulation. Example here. A bit pokey but one one is forcing people into buying cheaper end apartments in or very close to the CC.

No storage.

111Sqm 3 bedroom terrace - less than 30 mins from Pearse, door to door. 220K - just under 200K mortgage required from a FTB, meaning a couple would need to be on just under 60K to afford it which is below the industry average wage for the pair of them.

So, by plenty, you mean in Kilbarrack which is an area the vast majority of Dublin would rather not live in?
That's not disingenuous at all.


Still waiting for evidence of a 40sqm studio that has storage space sufficient for one person!

athtrasna

Eric Cartman wrote: »

insulation requirements should have been priority 1. Its the biggest issue in apartments in Ireland. You should be able to drop a mug on wooden floors and nobody be able to hear a thing.

You should be able to force people to abide by the contracts they sign that say no wooden floors

I think the dual aspect thing is as big if not a bigger thing than apartment size. I will watch to see how developers seek to benefit from that one.

MarkAnthony

khamilto wrote: »

How can you say it is perfectly livable when it only has pictures of one room, with no storage and a kitchen that quite genuinely only appears to barely fit one person standing in it?


No storage.

Because I lived in the complex for over a decade and it took me 2 full transits (not counting furniture as I left that to rent the place out) to move all my and the wife's crap!

khamilto wrote: »

So, by plenty, you mean in Kilbarrack which is an area the vast majority of Dublin would rather not live in?
That's not disingenuous at all.

Again somewhere I moved to after asking people who actually live in the area. Nothing wrong with the Kilbarrack/Raheny area in fact go half a mile in pretty much any direction and it's very expensive. There are plenty of areas within Dublin that have the same issue - snobbery about the area when actually they're grand. That's focusing people into smaller and smaller areas of South Dublin which means you, rightly, pay more.

On that though the highest crime rates are D1 where you want a load of these massive flats built?

khamilto wrote: »

Still waiting for evidence of a 40sqm studio that has storage space sufficient for one person!

See above. I'd not live in a studio as I don't consider it a very nice way to live. I prefer the kitchen separate from the sleeping area. Plenty of storage in a 40Sqm 1 bed as above, can't see why there would be a problem in a studio.

MarkAnthony

athtrasna wrote: »

You should be able to force people to abide by the contracts they sign that say no wooden floors

I think the dual aspect thing is as big if not a bigger thing than apartment size. I will watch to see how developers seek to benefit from that one.

Dual aspect I'd imagine was a massive issue no? Surely it would be very limiting in terms of building size as you could only have 4 units to a floor or some very odd long arrangement with windows either end?

Spanish Eyes

The US and Continental way is good. Small enough floor space, small kitchens, BUT a cave or cellar that is lockable in the garage/basement for all the bulky stuff that everyone accumulates. Of course a communal laundry/drying area would be the dogs blx aswell, but you never know!

Good sound insulation is a must too.

I've lived in small places, alone admittedly, and far preferred that to sharing when I got a bit ahem, more mature!

I do hope the guidelines will be tweaked to include mandatory storage for bikes etc. and proper insulation. That would be a big improvement.

syklops

Ross O'Carroll-Kelly is popping the champagne corks tonight. He said as a result of the changes in the guidelines, the 44 apartments he is selling in Carrickmines is now 88 apartments.

The regulations were OTT here, those drawing them up sure as hell arent on the kind of money where they need to worry about living in a studio or with others etc!

The regulations were way over the top, and its a common problem in Ireland that the people drawing up guidelines or rules will never need to follow them and never be impacted by them.

I heard Minister Kelly on Pat Kenny on Monday and Pat asked him about guidelines around storage and his response was, and Im paraphrasing, "That would be up to the developers". I nearly threw the radio out the window. If you're going to have guidelines, have them. Dont leave important things to guess work or, as we see regularly, cute hoorism. As I said previously in this thread, in my place, we dont have a place for the hoover. It wont fit in the cupboard in the hall, so it lives behind the couch. For reference our apartment is about 50 sq metres, so not impacted by the change, but still a bit on the small side. I just found an ad for a clone of our apartment across the way from us on daft. Asking price is 255k. Its slightly larger in that it has 2 double rooms. There is a single bed in our second bedroom and you could not possibly fit a double bed in the room, so ours is smaller.

I've lived in small places, alone admittedly, and far preferred that to sharing when I got a bit ahem, more mature!

It's a sad state of affairs when living alone is considered such a luxury that its priced so far out of reach for most single people. A friend of mine had a flat sometime around 2006 just off Baggot street that probably still wouldnt pass the current guidelines but having spent many hours in there I would happily live there, even now. I was in a house share about 300 metres away and paying 700 a month. He was paying 350. Yes his place was small. Yes in his place you had to technically leave the flat to use the bathroom. But for the price, location and solitude, it was luxury compared to some "approved" places I've seen or even rented.

syklops

Dual-aspect. WTF was that all about? I dont care if I can look out both sides of the place. My curtains are drawn most of the time anyway.

MarkAnthony

syklops wrote: »

Dual-aspect. WTF was that all about? I dont care if I can look out both sides of the place. My curtains are drawn most of the time anyway.

Probably to protect certain single aspects being damp/cold not getting any light?

Silly idea though, one would assume the market would resolve that issue with price.

Idbatterim

One issue that has me totally finished with apartments, is noise!

Another one I have an issue with, is bedroom sizing! How often have I been in apartments with one overly big bedroom and another with a joke of a room!

In the 3 bed apartments, I would propose a separate living room being built, away from the kitchen / dining room, the problem with apartments in particularly 3 bed, you will never get your own space... (it may not be bad with professionals who are out a lot, go home at weekends etc) but with a family with 2 or 3 kids?!!! :eek:

The low hanging fruit is gone, so much of the remaining space in the docklands, work has commenced or will shortly. Moving the port (keep a cruise ferry terminal though). The land was estimated to be worth 600 Billion in the boom! Edit! The land was valued at €15 million an acre, so at that rate (I am not sure what it is now) the land would be worth 15 billion... (Again the value would depend on density permitted etc...)

syklops

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Probably to protect certain single aspects being damp/cold not getting any light?

If thats true, then its not a case of too many chefs, its a case of the kitchen porter designing the menu. Dampness can be kept at bay and even resolved by buying a 50 euro dehumidifier and not trying to dry clothes in dark, already damp rooms. For city centre apartments/flats Im fine with there being no washing/drying facilities because you are walking distance from a laundrette. Going to the Laundrette is a common past time on Saturday in Manhattan.

If its a Carbon Monoxide defence then fine, but decent venting can do that. There are lots of properties in Dublin central which can't do dual aspect, which could well explain the housing shortage. I've been in friends places over the last ten years which were outside of the previous guidelines. I get queasy when I think some of them are empty when so many people are either homeless or doing long commutes to get into the city centre as a result of the previous guidelines.

Silly idea though, one would assume the market would resolve that issue with price.

Supply and demand. This is why the EU frowns on governments interfering with markets, which is what the bedsit ban was and the alcohol bill is.

syklops

Another one I have an issue with, is bedroom sizing! How often have I been in apartments with one overly big bedroom and another with a joke of a room!

I dont have that problem per se. I have a bit of a cramped master bedroom, and a second single bedroom which is a joke. Thats where we dry our clothes mostly, but I agree bedroom sizes in general are tiny.

In the 3 bed apartments, I would propose a separate living room being built, away from the kitchen / dining room, the problem with apartments in particularly 3 bed, you will never get your own space... (it may not be bad with professionals who are out a lot, go home at weekends etc) but with a family with 2 or 3 kids?!!!

Professionals in their early twenties might go out alot and might go home alot at weekends in their early twenties but eventually they will need a few quiet nights in and stay home a few weekends. Building and designing apartments assuming they go "home" a lot is a recipe for disaster. Design and build homes. Homes that work. Homes with storage. Homes that people love and respect and want to stay in, and they become so much more valuable.

cerastes

MarkAnthony wrote: »

44Sqm 2 bedroom apartment - perfectly livable. Although I do think 60sq m would be a more sensible limit. 75Sqm is plenty.

45Sqm in a one bed is again plenty, especially with decent insulation. Example here. A bit pokey but one one is forcing people into buying cheaper end apartments in or very close to the CC.

111Sqm 3 bedroom terrace - less than 30 mins from Pearse, door to door. 220K - just under 200K mortgage required from a FTB, meaning a couple would need to be on just under 60K to afford it which is below the industry average wage for the pair of them.

I knew someone that had a 75 sq metre apartment and that was small, those apartments are tiny, almost prison cell like. They are ridiculous.
Not having storage is ridiculous also. I've seen some apartments on the continent and a seperate storage room/with water/power/drainage seems to be a normal expectation.
This also came along with actual secure parking, security, and practically manicured gardens (and facilities, one had a gym, another had grounds that looked like a park with playground). I'm not saying we could expect the latter, but building up would mean more available space and it would be sensible and reasonable to consider storage as a normal requirement.

On a seperate note and as a reply to someone else, I'd also consider natural ventilation not to be acceptable for spaces lived in, especially apartments.

Eric Cartman

athtrasna wrote: »

You should be able to force people to abide by the contracts they sign that say no wooden floors

I think the dual aspect thing is as big if not a bigger thing than apartment size. I will watch to see how developers seek to benefit from that one.

Those rules were brought in because blocks had crappy insulation. Walking around , dropping a mug , hoovering , watching tv, taking a shower , as in normal things that go on in an apartment should not be able to be heard any time of the day or night by anyone in a surrounding unit.

MarkAnthony

cerastes wrote: »

I knew someone that had a 75 sq metre apartment and that was small, those apartments are tiny, almost prison cell like. They are ridiculous.
Not having storage is ridiculous also. I've seen some apartments on the continent and a seperate storage room/with water/power/drainage seems to be a normal expectation.
This also came along with actual secure parking, security, and practically manicured gardens (and facilities, one had a gym, another had grounds that looked like a park with playground). I'm not saying we could expect the latter, but building up would mean more available space and it would be sensible and reasonable to consider storage as a normal requirement.

On a seperate note and as a reply to someone else, I'd also consider natural ventilation not to be acceptable for spaces lived in, especially apartments.

Someone, and I'm not sure if it's you or not, always brings this up. Yes that's very nice but thats not the way building happens here. Setting unworkable minimum standards for apartments simply results in developers throwing tantrums and not building. Minimums should be exactly that. The market takes care of the rest. If people wanted or could afford 200Sqm two beds they'd be building them.

Also what are you lot storing for christ sake? I grew up in a c.75sqm 3 bed terraced in an old Army estate, me, my brother and my two parents + various dogs and we never had an issue with space. The min standards are fine, as pointed out in the article it's inline with other European countries.

I lived in a c. 40sqm apartment as stated above and had plenty of storage, granted we had to put some of it in ourselves but at the bottom end of the market how many modern art installations do you want in a 1 bed? I had everything I wanted in my flat including a Washer dryer, dishwasher, sofa to seat 4 (corner group) dining table, work area with desk as I'm a PC nerd I had a desktop with three monitors. Plenty of space for clothes for two people and a full sized double bed, not to mention a bathroom with a full sized bath.