Seondary teaching or primary teaching.

luke1796

Hi i'm in my final year in UCC studying Irish and Music. I've always wanted to become a teacher but I really don't know whether I should do the pme in primary teaching or secondary teaching.

I know the job prospects for both are bleak but i've heard there's more jobs in the primary sector , especially for males. But I don't think I would like to be teaching small kids how to read / write / spell etc.

If I decide to do the secondary route I would consider doing a hDip in economics in ucc ( economics was my 3rd subject in 1st year) before doing the PME so then I would be qualified to teach music , Irish , economics and maybe business , in order to increase my job chances.

I've heard of so many people who have been part time for 5 or 6 years and who have had to emigrate in order to find teaching work - and I really don't want this to happen to me ! I don't want to be getting the dole when coming out of doing a masters and living with my parents for the rest of my life ! I probably would enjoy secondary more but I feel I need to be realistic and do which one will get me a job the quickest. Irish and music would obviously be very useful for primary.

Is it true that there is more jobs for male's in the primary sector ? And also is there any hope of me getting a secondary school job with my chosen subjects ?

So if anyone has any advice on which career I should pursue feel free to reply !

spurious

You would be extraordinarily lucky not to be part time (or filling in maternity leaves/sick leaves) for at least 5 or 6 years before getting full hours.

Being a man will make no difference.

You could be teachng 16 year olds how to write and spell, it's not an exclusively primary activity.

If your Irish standard is good, that should help with getting hours and you can probably do private piano classes on the side with Music, so your subjects aren't too bad (for Ireland).

Don't expect the job situation to get any better soon. People have been banging that drum for years.

GSOIRL

Unfortunately unless you want to emigrate I would consider a different career. The teaching profession has been slowly eroded. It is very very difficult to get a full time job and new entrants to teaching get paid significantly lower than their equally qualified & experienced colleagues. If you're lucky enough to get a job in Leitrim or Roscommon you could probably have a stable life but if you plan on living in Cork or Dublin as a new entrant teacher you better marry someone with money.

janes1234

GSOIRL wrote:

Unfortunately unless you want to emigrate I would consider a different career. The teaching profession has been slowly eroded. It is very very difficult to get a full time job and new entrants to teaching get paid significantly lower than their equally qualified & experienced colleagues. If you're lucky enough to get a job in Leitrim or Roscommon you could probably have a stable life but if you plan on living in Cork or Dublin as a new entrant teacher you better marry someone with money.

Completely agree. Sorry to dishearten you op. I have been teaching for 6 years and I'm still covering career break. It's a nightmare. Luckily my husband is permanent so we managed to get a house etc.

Exiled1

Agree with the roosters.
It is quite impossible to get any kind of a job with music at second level. If you wish to teach Irish, there are jobs. However you should realise the teaching Irish is probably the toughest job in teaching unless you are lucky to find yourself in a school with a very positive grá for the language.
That subject combination would help enormously if you wished to do primary. It should get you into a good course (not all are equal) and then you could face the rat race there is to get any kind of a job........

Mardy Bum

A lot of schools can't get decent Irish teachers for love nor money. Most graduating with Irish pick up a good contract straight away and if you can impress you will be kept.

To counter the doom and gloom there are people who get full hours within a year. You may have to go beyond the call of duty to impress though in order to not be seen as replaceable.

Do the PME in a university. Maynooth is the best and it will give you the best chances of getting a job.

byhookorbycrook

You say you couldn't bear teaching smaller children so I find it hard to understand why you even mention primary. I'd also
I suggest you do some observation at secondary level, I don't think you really have thought this through, to be honest.

Primary teaching is not a handy job option and I think you are naive to think that it is a better choice because of job prospects.I also think, being honest that you are not making choices that are sustainable, you won't get a choice in the age group you get. I would reconsider your choices.

janes1234

Mardy Bum wrote:

To counter the doom and gloom there are people who get full hours within a year. You may have to go beyond the call of duty to impress though in order to not be seen as replaceable.

And this here is exactly the problem with teaching these days.

Mardy Bum

janes1234 wrote: »

And this here is exactly the problem with teaching these days.

As in standing out when you begin a job for the first time because that happens in no other job in the world.

I hate when people make public sector/private sector comparisons but both are the same; any new entrant needs to create a niche for themselves. Otherwise don't complain if you don't have a job when hundreds are graduating with the exact same degree and experience.

mirrorwall14

Mardy Bum wrote: »

As in standing out when you begin a job for the first time because that happens in no other job in the world.

I hate when people make public sector/private sector comparisons but both are the same; any new entrant needs to create a niche for themselves. Otherwise don't complain if you don't have a job when hundreds are graduating with the exact same degree and experience.

There is serious race to the bottom going on though. We have worked out that 50% plus of our staff is now on part time contracts. They are all excellent teachers, Extracurricular has never been better, they go on trips away, run competitions, fundraiser for the school and bend over backwards for management in the scramble for 'hours'. The harsh reality is that management have absolutely no inclination to have less part time staff and no incentive to increase hours. They have the best possible situation as it stands. The only full time 22hr contracts that have appeared in the last five years (in a school of almost 800 pupils) were mine (which I fought for), one 22hr job in a core subject (after two full time teachers of the subject left the department/school and one teacher moved almost exclusively to their second subject). Despite seriously increasing numbers, 2 retirements and a promotion to management no other full time jobs have been created. The 'hours' have been split up. Heck even the maternities that have come up have been split, mine had 3 teachers doing my 22hrs!!

Mardy Bum

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

There is serious race to the bottom going on though. We have worked out that 50% plus of our staff is now on part time contracts. They are all excellent teachers, Extracurricular has never been better, they go on trips away, run competitions, fundraiser for the school and bend over backwards for management in the scramble for 'hours'. The harsh reality is that management have absolutely no inclination to have less part time staff and no incentive to increase hours. They have the best possible situation as it stands. The only full time 22hr contracts that have appeared in the last five years (in a school of almost 800 pupils) were mine (which I fought for), one 22hr job in a core subject (after two full time teachers of the subject left the department/school and one teacher moved almost exclusively to their second subject). Despite seriously increasing numbers, 2 retirements and a promotion to management no other full time jobs have been created. The 'hours' have been split up. Heck even the maternities that have come up have been split, mine had 3 teachers doing my 22hrs!!

ETB school I am guessing. There are much larger issues with them that go on that need to be addressed and maybe then management won't be useless.

There are schools that give proper full time contracts.

Avatar MIA

The good news, I do think being a male would help in Primary. At the very least some schools will want a male influence where there are only female teachers. They are hired by the board of management.

However, not wanting to teach kids the basics shows you really shouldn't go down this route as you'll become disillusioned very quickly.

Re your subject choices for secondary, you'll have Irish and music.

Not sure taking a subject in first year with a HDip would qualify to be able to teach - could be wrong.

feardeas

Just my twopence worth here. As for the choice between the two. Only you can know. I was tempted towards primary back in the day but knew I wouldn't have the patience. The fact that first years can still drive me berserk in the first few weeks is a testament to that but I do like the enthusiasm they have for the first term or two.

Now prospects wise well it is bleak. However at secondary it was never too hot. I did my dip in 03/04. Remember well towards the end of it looking in the Independent magazine that had jobs on a Thursday [different times]. There were pages of primary jobs then and a lot of them permanent. There was one page for secondary. That was a stomach churning experience.

However I was lucky got a career break cover. Made permanent 3 years later. It was lucky, right time, right place.

If you really want to go into teaching give it a shot. Irish teachers appear to be hard got. Sell the music idea. You could perhaps give lessons at lunch time as extra curricular. Do the economics post grad. It will give you an extra subject and might also open another door for you in this great fast growing economy we have

As an aside what they did to new entrants is a disgrace. If our beloved unions had any gumption they'd put that front and centre. In a decade we could be facing a huge problem in recruiting. Apparently the dept are aware of this but feel the current over supply will get them over it for a few years.

Redser87

Primary is definitely not the easy option you seem to think it is. Being a male will only get you so far if this is the attitude you have - any interview panel worth their salt would see that you do not have any passion for the job.
Plus, there is huge competition for places in the training colleges. 9 or 10 competing for every place most years and I know plenty of men who didn't get a place. You seem to have thought the secondary route through better so maybe that is where you should focus your energy.

mirrorwall14

Mardy Bum wrote: »

ETB school I am guessing. There are much larger issues with them that go on that need to be addressed and maybe then management won't be useless.

There are schools that give proper full time contracts.

I'm in an ETB school but members of my family work in second secondary schools and they say the same although the the pecentage of part timers is a little lower than half

evolving_doors

Mardy Bum wrote: »

ETB school I am guessing. There are much larger issues with them that go on that need to be addressed and maybe then management won't be useless.

There are schools that give proper full time contracts.

Thats a very very small minority... just going by advertisements for 'jobs'.
How many full-time posts are on educationposts.ie at the mo.?

r93kaey5p2izun

Just on the jobs situation - according to the Ward Report 35% of teachers don't have full time permanency or full time CID. There's no doubt that figure would be far worse if only those who employed in the past 10 years were considered.

40% of ETB teachers are on part time hours (20% in voluntary sector). 49% of ETB teachers do not have full time CID or permanency (25% in voluntary). It would be a nonsense to suggest that these thousands of teachers have all failed to go above and beyond as is expected of NQTs.

It's just too easy to dismiss the issue, saying it's just the ETBs. They are the main problem, but they are also a major employer of teachers - that sector is not some trivial drop in the ocean. They employ 40% of teachers according to the Ward Report and a quick google suggests that around 230 out approx 700 second level schools are managed by ETBs. It seems the ETB sector is also growing far faster than voluntary, with far more new schools under ETB management. The ETB problem is a very significant one for those considering teaching as a career.

I would like to see a follow up report on the new rules though. Anecdotally I see no improvement - the time to CID is shorter but it's still mostly part-time CID. Hours are still split as a matter of policy as far as I can see.

I would not recommend teaching to anyone who wants to be able to support themselves or a family fully. Irish probably offers the best hope possible apart from Home Ec, but even then you can expect several years subbing. Also, it is highly likely you will end up teaching just Irish and never get to teach your second subject - so make sure you would be happy with that.

Mardy Bum

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Thats a very very small minority... just going by advertisements for 'jobs'.
How many full-time posts are on educationposts.ie at the mo.?

Have not looked but at this stage of the year it will be very quiet as new positions are unlikely at this point in the school year. I also know of schools that cannot find Irish teachers and will employ anyone even slightly interested in teaching it.

The ETB sector is a mess (although its funded well relatively speaking), although a good CEO can bring major changes in terms of infrastructure. Too many cooks involved in it though for it to run efficiently.

I am not saying it is a perfect career but I don't like the 100% doom and gloom that you see. There are plenty of better paying jobs which are much easier on a day to day basis and easier to get into. I know a good few people who have not had to sub for years and were on full hours after a year or two and just waiting for the CID which they got.

spurious

Not that the figures are not still disgusting, but the ETBs run a lot more than schools and many of their centres would not have full hours to give to people. My old ETB-run school alone was responsible for something like 16 out-centres, all of which employed teachers, the vast majority on less than full hours. This skews the figures somewhat.

peckerhead

Mardy Bum wrote: »

ETB school I am guessing. There are much larger issues with them that go on that need to be addressed and maybe then management won't be useless.

There are schools that give proper full time contracts.

There are also plenty of "good" schools with dire management problems and/or dubious recruitment practices. Some of the most prestigious (fee-paying) schools in my locality were named on that list that was published of schools hiring qualified teachers as JobBridge interns, and I frequently hear of blatant nepotism in appointments.

Don't mean to sound cynical, but in this country the best pass to a teaching job is still "pull" and connections. It's a disgrace. I know it happens in other jobs too, but you would expect some degree of transparency/impartiality in appointments to permanent public sector posts. :mad:

joeharte123

luke1796 wrote: »

Hi i'm in my final year in UCC studying Irish and Music. I've always wanted to become a teacher but I really don't know whether I should do the pme in primary teaching or secondary teaching.

I know the job prospects for both are bleak but i've heard there's more jobs in the primary sector , especially for males. But I don't think I would like to be teaching small kids how to read / write / spell etc.

If I decide to do the secondary route I would consider doing a hDip in economics in ucc ( economics was my 3rd subject in 1st year) before doing the PME so then I would be qualified to teach music , Irish , economics and maybe business , in order to increase my job chances.

I've heard of so many people who have been part time for 5 or 6 years and who have had to emigrate in order to find teaching work - and I really don't want this to happen to me ! I don't want to be getting the dole when coming out of doing a masters and living with my parents for the rest of my life ! I probably would enjoy secondary more but I feel I need to be realistic and do which one will get me a job the quickest. Irish and music would obviously be very useful for primary.

Is it true that there is more jobs for male's in the primary sector ? And also is there any hope of me getting a secondary school job with my chosen subjects ?

So if anyone has any advice on which career I should pursue feel free to reply !

OP, as mentioned in other comments above - your attitude is quite poor regarding the responsibility you could have for your students, be it you successful and obtain a couple of hours in a school down the line. I believe you haven't FULLY processed the reality which is teaching in Ireland today.

The "advantage" men have in primary teaching doesn't apply the same way it did 20 years ago. There were an adequate number of positions for graduates in primary/secondary teaching for those coming out of universities with their Hdips. Hibernia set up around 2001 and they now contribute toward a massive inflation of teachers, pumping out around 600 graduates each year alone. This has made the figures of unemployed teachers greater as Hibernia-qualified teachers tend to find it more difficult to be offered hours, all else being equal.


The pros and cons of a career need to be thought of before making such a decision. 12,000 euro for the Masters in Education is quite expensive but must be done if your to in anyway compete with other applicants. You will more than likely be claiming the dole during the summer too (might not live with your parents though). Compared to your peers working in retail, business, finance etc. - you will be earning less than them which is always a factor to take into account before choosing a career.


It's not all doom and gloom. Provided your lucky and gain permanent employment within a school, the job security is there. There are good holidays with the job too, if you into having all that time off!