Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2015 Mod Note Post #2331

TheDoc

Pro. F wrote: »

That isn't clear at all. You are just being extremely gullible and excitable.

It's pretty clear to me, seeing numerous infrastructural issues within the club, that there is a certain ball being dropped.

They might be festering for years and all coming to go bang now, or they might just be the chaotic fallout from a poor plan post Ferguson, but there does appear at this stage to me, that there is some issue at board level, that is stopping some relatively straight forward stuff being done.

There have been stories and reports of the power struggles, I'm not putting stock into it, impossible to know for sure. But it very much appears to me there is something happening, and whatever it is, it's causing a cycle of doom and gloom at the club.

grumpymunster

TheDoc wrote: »

I think Villa Boas should factor into any conversation, but I guess its some personal preference. I think he is a good manager, young and ambitious, and appears to have a number of strong qualities.

Felt he got a raw deal at both Spurs and Chelsea, but I really like his temperament and the football his teams play.

Floating a bit under the radar with Zenit, but by his own admission he will be leaving, and the country itself bringing in legislation to ban foreign nationals managing Russian sporting teams, I feel he is a name that should be in the mix.

While not in the top echelon of managers, I'd have him ahead of Kooman, Pochetino and that level of manager being spoken about.

Although again there is a certain personal preference there, always struck a chord with me and someone I was very fond of.

I quite like AVB dont think he was quite ready for the Chelsea job (but then who is??) and did a decent job at Spurs. But judging from a recent interview I cant put my hands on at the minute I dont think he see's himself back in the PL any-time soon. He was quite scathing of it and the owners demands.

Pro. F

TheDoc wrote: »

It's pretty clear to me, seeing numerous infrastructural issues within the club, that there is a certain ball being dropped.

They might be festering for years and all coming to go bang now, or they might just be the chaotic fallout from a poor plan post Ferguson, but there does appear at this stage to me, that there is some issue at board level, that is stopping some relatively straight forward stuff being done.

There have been stories and reports of the power struggles, I'm not putting stock into it, impossible to know for sure. But it very much appears to me there is something happening, and whatever it is, it's causing a cycle of doom and gloom at the club.

You are just being fooled by journalists who are giving you what want to hear. For somebody with a claimed disdain for the press you have given a lot of credence to the gossip of power struggles and structural problems, when in reality we know almost nothing of the internal goings on at the club. These rumours fit well with your belief that Van Gaal has been doing an okay job, that's why you believe them.

The_Kew_Tour

If LVG is not gone by tomorrow he be around for while yet.

Hard to know what might be going on.

TheDoc

Pro. F wrote: »

You are just being fooled by journalists who are giving you what want to hear. For somebody with a claimed disdain for the press you have given a lot of credence to the gossip of power struggles and structural problems, when in reality we know almost nothing of the internal goings on at the club. These rumours fit well with your belief that Van Gaal has been doing an okay job, that's why you believe them.

Your the one who has taken the words poisonous and destructive, and linked it to me being "fooled by journalists". I referenced there was some stories about Ferguson and Gill, and also mentioned I hold no stock in them.

I wasn't being specifically descriptive with those words, in terms of what is specifically happening.

It could just as easily be Woodward out of his depth, ego's and pride blocking correct decision making, or a raft of other things.

The point is that the operations at board level appear to be hampering the club and perpetuating an endless cycle of doom and gloom. I'm not insinuating what the specific cause is

TheDoc

grumpymunster wrote: »

I quite like AVB dont think he was quite ready for the Chelsea job (but then who is??) and did a decent job at Spurs. But judging from a recent interview I cant put my hands on at the minute I dont think he see's himself back in the PL any-time soon. He was quite scathing of it and the owners demands.

Know what you mean. He said he's leaving to go back to Portugal for family reasons(although it kinda glossed over the fact he would be forced out anyway).

He worked under two of the most sporadic and depending on the timing, most difficult owners in the league.

There is really only Pep and Mourinho that 'd have confidence will come into the club and improve things quickly, and maintain that going forward. Both are short termists though, that don't appear to have great influence on clubs outside of the first team. But then in the modern manager, are they actually expected to put a footprint on an entire club? I don't think they do.

I don't even think short term is the word anymore, it's the norm. The club should be putting structures and process in place, that cater for managers being in place for 2-3 seasons, and that there isn't massive shockwaves sent throughout when a manager leaves.

It's the blueprint most clubs now use, be it elite or even just run of the mill, and it's something I believe the club need to get a grasp on quickly. While Post Ferguson was obviously new territory, it does smack of poor due diligence that there wasn't a realization there would need to be some heavy structural shifts.

That we are three years on and it appears the main pillars havn't been planted, is a massive concern.

Pro. F

TheDoc wrote: »

Your the one who has taken the words poisonous and destructive, and linked it to me being "fooled by journalists". I referenced there was some stories about Ferguson and Gill, and also mentioned I hold no stock in them.

Yet you referenced them several times in those two posts. If you actually held no stock in those stories then you wouldn't be mentioning them and shaping your discussion around them.

TheDoc wrote: »

I wasn't being specifically descriptive with those words, in terms of what is specifically happening.

It could just as easily be Woodward out of his depth, ego's and pride blocking correct decision making, or a raft of other things.

The point is that the operations at board level appear to be hampering the club and perpetuating an endless cycle of doom and gloom. I'm not insinuating what the specific cause is

What evidence is there that operations at board level appear to be hampering the club?

Nalz

Pro. F wrote: »

That isn't clear at all. You are just being extremely gullible and excitable.

so am I

Confirmed on SSN that he's in Holland and will return tomorrow for training.

homerjay2005

TheDoc wrote: »

Your the one who has taken the words poisonous and destructive, and linked it to me being "fooled by journalists". I referenced there was some stories about Ferguson and Gill, and also mentioned I hold no stock in them.

I wasn't being specifically descriptive with those words, in terms of what is specifically happening.

It could just as easily be Woodward out of his depth, ego's and pride blocking correct decision making, or a raft of other things.

The point is that the operations at board level appear to be hampering the club and perpetuating an endless cycle of doom and gloom. I'm not insinuating what the specific cause is

i think there is a mixture of things wrong right now, first and foremost however it is Van Gaal.

Woodward and the board need to take alot of blame, the players have been awful with some of them "stealing" a living and also things have been left over since the Fergie/Gill era that have caused problems.

overall, when you add it together, the club (as a football team) is in a right mess and its lead to some of our worst performances, results and everything else football related in the last 40 years.

first step in solving this is getting rid of problem #1 LVG, then after that you hope we stabilise, get into top 4 before May (getting more unlikely with every passing game) and in the summer start all over again with the squad rebuilding and once and for all, have a definate plan for transfers as opposed to a complete lucky dip approach that we have had in the last 3 summers.

i said a couple of months back we were only 3 top quality players away from a really good squad, i think that is now incorrect and it needs much more work than this - problem is, i dont think the Glazers will stump up anymore cash and we are stuck with the majority of what we have.

all in all, who ever the manager is has a huge task on his hands, as right now our stature in European football has severely regressed and if we are not careful, we will slip completely out of the top 6 in the PL and will struggle to get back into it.

Nalz

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Confirmed on SSN that he's in Holland and will return tomorrow for training.

At a family birthday I heard someone mention this morning?

Nalz

Nalz wrote: »

At a family birthday I heard someone mention this morning?

Daughters Birthday correct

DARK-KNIGHT

Lads all the talk of management staying in place long term is laughable the game has changed and realistically managers seeing 4 years is a positive... Wenger is the last of those managers now we will never see that again imo...

Get the best we can and do it quickly either horse money at pep or take mourinho as he wants the job.....

The longer lvg is there the worse the decline is gonna be

DARK-KNIGHT

And giggs getting the job is a joke......

v3ttel

Quandary wrote: »

10.55am....



..... No sacking

Brilliant!

TheDoc

Pro. F wrote: »

Yet you referenced them several times in those two posts. If you actually held no stock in those stories then you wouldn't be mentioning them and shaping your discussion around them.



What evidence is there that operations at board level appear to be hampering the club?

I referenced them because they have been the context of some stories that were written. Just because I don't hold them creditable, doesn't exactly mean they arn't true, or have some element of truth. I hold little the Manchester correspondents write as creditable, that is not to say they have not been right in previous instances, and I've been wrong in dismissing them.

I also havn't shaped them from my discussions, you replied quoting two descriptive words from a post, that was outlining there looks to be structural issues at the club, and an opinion I shared about my feelings on a director of football structure. Instead you want to keep trying to make me look the fool or contradictory, by latching onto those two words you feel I referenced directly to some reports(even after clarifying, you still seem to think you know what I was thinking at the time of posting)

Evidence is hard to come by, but I don't think it's difficult to extrapolate from certain instances or scenarios, that there are issues occurring that could be avoided with a bit more structure or vision for how the machine should work, when its no longer one great manager at the core.

Head of youth development post vacant for, a ridiculous amount of time.
Youth development and structure appearing outdated, inefficient or failing.
Negotiation pains when it comes to securing player transfers.
Club reps being taken for a spin by players looking to use the club as a leverage for an improved contract.
Issues with communication to third parties regarding transfers and instructions.
Poor communication and Pr between fans and the club itself.


Ultimately the failures on the pitch will reside with the manager, as it always does, and the players(as it rarely does). But that does not excuse the gloomy cloud that has been allowed develop over the top of the club in the last few years, with a number of incidents and scenarios that I would have expected be dealt with better by an behemoth the size of United.

TheDoc

DARK-KNIGHT wrote: »

Lads all the talk of management staying in place long term is laughable the game has changed and realistically managers seeing 4 years is a positive... Wenger is the last of those managers now we will never see that again imo...

Get the best we can and do it quickly either horse money at pep or take mourinho as he wants the job.....

The longer lvg is there the worse the decline is gonna be

This is why I feel some structures needs to be put in place, to alleviate the shocks and earthquakes that run through the club, when a manager leaves. That era of long staying manager is now the exception, not the rule.

While I'd maybe have scoffed at City and Chelsea, Madrid an others who would chop and change their managers, there is situation whereby the clubs continue to be competitive and on a decent level(Chelsea collapse this season aside) and that is due to the structures in place. And in some regards, those clubs havn't ever had a longterm manager who became part of the machine, instead it was just a cog.

Until the club plans that out, and sorts it out, each managerial departure will cause massive shockwaves, and the executive will refrain from pulling the trigger until the very last, if not too late, moment.

Woodward in an interview or brief referenced Van Gaal as a genius, and the work he is doing behind the scenes is incredible. It is "possible" that these structures are being put in place, and Van Gaal is weathering the storm for this work to complete. I don't know, it's impossible to tell.

But if those comments from Wward were more then backing his man, and just trying to stem the tide, and if Van Gaal is part of some really positive change to the infrastructure (that we rarely to never know about or hear about) then it would stand to reason to take him out of the firing line and convince him to work solely on that, and let someone else manage the team.

Polo_Mint

I would love to know exactly what Giggs has learned from Moyes and LVG since becoming Assistant Manager.

I would think how not to manage United.

There is no way he should be incharge for the rest of the season.


Jose should be signed up for the rest of the season with the job reviewed in the summer.

Mitch Connor

Polo_Mint wrote: »

Jose should be signed up for the rest of the season with the job reviewed in the summer.

Yeah, I could totally see him agreeing to that.

TheDoc

Polo_Mint wrote: »

I would love to know exactly what Giggs has learned from Moyes and LVG since becoming Assistant Manager.

I would think how not to manage United.

There is no way he should be incharge for the rest of the season.


Jose should be signed up for the rest of the season with the job reviewed in the summer.

Someone of his stature would never expect a short term proposal. I'd imagine the mere offer would be insulting.

astonaidan

Honestly lads, their is no way Giggs should get the job. Hes been apart of two stumbling reigns now. What owner in their right mind sees that as something they want to buy into long term.
Christ if you are just looking at United old boys their is a few who have more than Giggs to offer.
Mark Hughes has Stoke, yes ****ing Stoke playing lovely football, Id love for him to get it, he was never going to be a massive success at City the way they were signing players.
Then you have Jose, the best manager in the world who wants to stay in England, to not take him over Giggs is madness

Polo_Mint

Polo_Mint wrote: »

I would love to know exactly what Giggs has learned from Moyes and LVG since becoming Assistant Manager.

I would think how not to manage United.

There is no way he should be incharge for the rest of the season.


Jose should be signed up for the rest of the season with the job reviewed in the summer.

Think the lads have addressed this one already but yea...Short term for "King Ego"? He would never let that happen I'd say!

It's got to be Long term for Jose (in his eyes anyway) I would assume

astonaidan

astonaidan wrote: »

Honestly lads, their is no way Giggs should get the job. Hes been apart of two stumbling reigns now. What owner in their right mind sees that as something they want to buy into long term.
Christ if you are just looking at United old boys their is a few who have more than Giggs to offer.
Mark Hughes has Stoke, yes ****ing Stoke playing lovely football, Id love for him to get it, he was never going to be a massive success at City the way they were signing players.
Then you have Jose, the best manager in the world who wants to stay in England, to not take him over Giggs is madness

Sadly that look's to be the only real option if LVG leaves now and then factor in the risk of no CL football either way.

Long term it's a straight up battle between Jose & Pep in the summer.

jayo26

Polo_Mint wrote: »

Jose should be signed up for the rest of the season with the job reviewed in the summer.

Are you Miguel Delaney in disguise???

Pro. F

TheDoc wrote: »

I referenced them because they have been the context of some stories that were written.

This sentence doesn't mean anything.

TheDoc wrote: »

Just because I don't hold them creditable, doesn't exactly mean they arn't true, or have some element of truth. I hold little the Manchester correspondents write as creditable, that is not to say they have not been right in previous instances, and I've been wrong in dismissing them.

So it was not true when you said that you hold no stock in the stories about Fergie and Gill.

TheDoc wrote: »

I also havn't shaped them from my discussions, you replied quoting two descriptive words from a post, that was outlining there looks to be structural issues at the club, and an opinion I shared about my feelings on a director of football structure. Instead you want to keep trying to make me look the fool or contradictory, by latching onto those two words you feel I referenced directly to some reports(even after clarifying, you still seem to think you know what I was thinking at the time of posting)

Where did I say that you referenced two words directly to some reports?

TheDoc wrote: »

Evidence is hard to come by, but I don't think it's difficult to extrapolate from certain instances or scenarios, that there are issues occurring that could be avoided with a bit more structure or vision for how the machine should work, when its no longer one great manager at the core.

1 Head of youth development post vacant for, a ridiculous amount of time.
2 Youth development and structure appearing outdated, inefficient or failing.
3 Negotiation pains when it comes to securing player transfers.
4 Club reps being taken for a spin by players looking to use the club as a leverage for an improved contract.
5 Issues with communication to third parties regarding transfers and instructions.
6 Poor communication and Pr between fans and the club itself.

1 It was actually the director of the academy post that was left vacant iirc. But what did that actually mean in reality? Was there a restructuring going on? Was the DA actually an important role in United's academy, or was some other position the important one? These are the type of questions that we need answers to before we can draw conclusions.

So, could you outline the academy staffing structure, names, roles and responsibilities?

2 Appearing so from what?

3 That's the same for all clubs.

4 What evidence do you have for this claim?

5 Details and evidence please

6 Details please

Nalz

PMs are good

TheDoc

Nalz wrote: »

PMs are good

I don't mind people picking away at my posts. I'm not averse to accepting criticism or a conflicting point of view. I don't think it's going to derail to the point of being destructive to the thread, be good to get other input and opinions on it also. I've been a Woodward defender before, and a staunch one during the transfer windows, but my steadfast defending of him has eroded in the last few months

I can see where this is going though. I'm clearly not going to be able to provide the details and concrete evidence, but I don't think I'm being ludicrous to suggest there are some issues with the clubs structure in the post Ferguson era.

Or if I am, am welcome to that being explained to me.

v3ttel

Nalz wrote: »

PMs are good

Things are bad enough without getting into politics....

Pro. F

Nalz wrote: »

PMs are good

You should apply to be a mod, then you'd be able to control what gets posted in this thread.

Nalz

Pro. F wrote: »

You should apply to be a mod, then you'd be able to control what gets posted in this thread.

No thanks. I'd rather suggest another method of conversation if the conversation in my opinion got OTT. I may be wrong that its OTT and others may be interested in it and for it go into such massive details in a tit for tat argument, at which point I'll apologize and just read over it as I more than likely will not be interested in it.

Mod life just ain't for me dude

v3ttel wrote: »

Things are bad enough without getting into politics....

Pro. F

TheDoc wrote: »

...but I don't think I'm being ludicrous to suggest there are some issues with the clubs structure in the post Ferguson era.

Or if I am, am welcome to that being explained to me.

It wouldn't be ludicrous to suggest that there could be some structural issues. But you went a lot further than that:

TheDoc wrote: »

It's so frustrating not knowing what is going on at the club, but clearly something destructive and poisonous is going on.

Pro. F

Nalz wrote: »

No thanks. I'd rather suggest another method of conversation if the conversation in my opinion got OTT. I may be wrong that its OTT and others may be interested in it and for it go into such massive details in a tit for tat argument, at which point I'll apologize and just read over it as I more than likely will not be interested in it.

Mod life just ain't for me dude

You should PM that to me. I think it's boring and OTT and it would be easier for me to ignore if you just PMd it rather than posted it in the thread.

Nalz

Pro. F wrote: »

You should PM that to me. I think it's boring and OTT and it would be easier for me to ignore if you just PMd it rather than posted it in the thread.

humour I love it!

v3ttel

v3ttel wrote: »

Things are bad enough without getting into politics....

Quality

Maximus Alexander

I like to imagine that Pro. F and Nalz are now PMing one another amicably.

Nalz

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

I like to imagine that Pro. F and Nalz are now PMing one another amicably.

We're going bowling at 7 if anyone is about Stillorgan area.

I miss FutureGuy

If he posted something would happen today...

jayo26

M!Ck^ wrote: »

I miss FutureGuy

If he posted something would happen today...

Him and bangkok are over in Manchester on a Fellaini pilgrimage.

Nalz

M!Ck^ wrote: »

I miss FutureGuy

If he posted something would happen today...

is he banned, on hols or wha?

fatherted1969

21 years since Cantona launched himself into the crowd at Selhurst park. Good times, I'm old. Jaysus

markcahill1985

fatherted1969 wrote:

21 years since Cantona launched himself into the crowd at Selhurst park. Good times, I'm old. Jaysus

Is my Birthday; got the black shirt with his name on it that day; mother wouldn't let me wear it for weeks haha

Maximus Alexander

fatherted1969 wrote: »

21 years since Cantona launched himself into the crowd at Selhurst park. Good times, I'm old. Jaysus

I remember it well. We were very excited over it in the playground at break time the following morning. Plenty of reenactments iirc.

RobertKK

I never had sympathy for the guy who was subject to Cantona's kung fu kick.

If only the current crop played with such passion.

v3ttel

fatherted1969 wrote: »

21 years since Cantona launched himself into the crowd at Selhurst park. Good times, I'm old. Jaysus

Hard to believe it's so long ago.

Time to change that username to Father Time.

DARK-KNIGHT

fatherted1969 wrote: »

21 years since Cantona launched himself into the crowd at Selhurst park. Good times, I'm old. Jaysus

Your only a young lad kid

jayo26

RobertKK wrote: »

I never had sympathy for the guy who was subject to Cantona's kung fu kick.

If only the current crop played with such passion.

Some of them do its just they don't have the same ability.

No one can ever question herrera for his passion same can be said for jones two of the most passionate guys at the club.

adox

fatherted1969 wrote: »

21 years since Cantona launched himself into the crowd at Selhurst park. Good times, I'm old. Jaysus

Remember listing to it on 5 live on the radio(google it young lads n lassies!) and remember thing WTF!!!

I was 28 at the time.:(

FutureGuy

Nalz wrote: »

is he banned, on hols or wha?

In discussions with Sky about taking over from Jim White on Deadline Day.

paulbok

Nalz wrote: »

is he banned, on hols or wha?

He's off scouting. Probably going through Woodwards bins as we speak looking for intell.
His transfer predictions aren't just pulled out of his ar$e you know.

wiz569

DARK-KNIGHT wrote: »

Your only a young lad kid

I was married with two kids at that stage