Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2015 Mod Note Post #2331

bangkok

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

The flip-side to that is Ronaldo has spoken positively of Jose as a manager since, Fabregas is a flaky fùcker, Hazard had the best season of his career under Mourinho, Mata didn't fit the way Chelsea were playing and Casillas deserved to be dropped.

Of course he has, 2 of them are Portuguese. Fabregas is a prick I will give you that. Hazard was having his worse season ever under mourinho as well. Mata was Chelsea player of the year twice. He was their main man. Casillas deserved to be dropped yes but he also deserved some respect

bangkok

astradave wrote: »

Bangkoks on the defensive, someone must have dissed Carrick Fergie Scholes

I will always defend club legends. #fellainiwillneverbeone

StringerBell

Nuts102 wrote: »

Your proof is a quote Mourinho made 3 years before he was even a manager?

It is widely known though

http://www.goal.com/en/news/1717/editorial/2011/11/26/2774421/jose-mourinho-at-barcelona-how-the-real-madrid-coach-almost

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/european/mourinho-wanted-guardiola-as-bar-a-no-2-6268061.html

"We had a meeting in Lisbon in a bank with him and his representative," Ingla told Catalan television TV3. "Mourinho showed us a power-point presentation that summed up his footballing philosophy: how he would evolve our famous 4-3-3, the ins and outs he had in mind, and even the people that would make up his technical staff. Among the names he suggested for his No 2 was Guardiola."

Ingla also disclosed the reason why the club ultimately decided to give the job to Guardiola and not to Mourinho: "He [Guardiola] was the first choice of Txiki Begiristain [then sporting director] and Mourinho told us he would not change his attitude towards the way he used the media."

http://sabotagetimes.com/football/how-real-madrids-mourinho-failed-his-barca-job-interview

However, in the meetings - Ingla and Begiristain each met with Mourinho individually, and then they talked as a three - a trend started to appear and it jolted both Spaniards.

Ingla confirms: “There was one moment when I said to him, ‘José, the problem we have with you is that you push the media too much. There is too much aggression. The coach is the image of the club. Three times a week, talking to the media for an hour, talking for the club, you cannot start fires everywhere, because this is against our style’.

“He said, 'I know, but that is my style and I will not change’.

“He told me, ‘Look at van Gaal. In his first era he was mean at Barca and he was a success. The second time he became like a ‘mother’, he changed his style and he failed’.

“The summary of my visit to José Mourinho is that he can be pleasant, he can be a charming guy, very simpatico. I had fun with him and then Txiki came a bit later for us to listen to the football ideas. Mourinho was renowned to be No.1 and he was first class at pitching himself – but he wouldn’t listen.”

That was the key. To Ingla and Begiristain, it appeared Mourinho believed that because Barça had gone awry, the directors didn’t know the correct way forward – only he did. The Portuguese didn’t hear the warning signs when told of the board’s insistence that he renounce his love of polemic. To him, it was apparently unclear which party was sitting in the power seat.

Mourinho felt that his record at Porto and Chelsea, his firm control of the transfer market thanks to the increasing influence of Jorge Mendes, his past at the Camp Nou and his ability to crack the whip (something Rijkaard didn’t possess) made it a buyer’s market.

It was, by his standards, a towering misjudgement.

Ingla and Begiristain had an ace up their sleeve. The job was theirs to give and they felt no desperation about filling the post – largely because they already suspected that Guardiola was the man to rescue Barcelona. It was, definitively, a seller’s market

Ingla left Lisbon with his principal fears confirmed and the Catalan word ‘imbecil’, which you could take to mean jerk or idiot, reverberating around his head. Begiristain, too, left Portugal racked with concerns.

The director of football was now convinced that Barça would win trophies if Mourinho was appointed three-and-a-half months down the line, in June 2008. Like Ingla, however, he’d found the Special One wanting.

Begiristain couldn’t imagine Mourinho understanding that the club didn’t want or need outbursts in the media two or three times a week. What’s more, the Basque felt that the Barça he was trying to build valued respect for the opponent, honour in defeat, dignity and other fragile concepts more highly than Mourinho did at that time, or perhaps ever would. Begiristain, on the flight back to El Prat airport, knew that they were about to play a percentage game.

He was 100% sure, and remains so to this day, that Barça would have trained well, played decent, if pragmatic, football and won trophies. However, he was equally sure that these would become pyrrhic victories compared what Mourinho would cost the socios, the board, Barcelona’s international brand and a host of other ‘intangible’ concepts that the club saw as intrinsic.

‘Mes Que Un Club’?

Begiristain feared that Mourinho felt that he was more than the club.

Ferran Soriano [the Barcelona General Manager] describes the mood of the expeditionary force when Ingla and Begiristain returned from Portugal. “Txiki and Marc thought that Mourinho was very well prepared,” he recalls. “He had a PowerPoint display on how he would manage everything. They spent three hours with him and both came away thinking Mourinho was not our guy. Marc said that Mourinho spoke 90% of the time and didn’t listen. He said: ‘I just don’t like him.’

“Txiki was a bit more rational. He said: ‘Mourinho would do well, but the number of fires he would cause internally, and with the media, are not worth it.’

Mourinho would later be ruled out of the running and former Barcelona player Pep Guardiola was eventually chosen to replace Franjk Rijkaard in the Summer of 2008.

The rejection is said to play a major part in his obsession with Guardiola and hatred of all things Barcelone

RobertKK

bangkok wrote: »

Falling out with players like ronaldo, fabregas, hazard, mata and Casillas also....

Though Ronaldo spoke out in favour of Mourinho recently.

Last November, Ronaldo said this: "Work with Mourinho again? Why not? I've got two more years on my contract with Real Madrid, but no-one knows what the future holds."

Alf Veedersane

bangkok wrote: »

Of course he has, 2 of them are Portuguese. Fabregas is a prick I will give you that. Hazard was having his worse season ever under mourinho as well. Mata was Chelsea player of the year twice. He was their main man. Casillas deserved to be dropped yes but he also deserved some respect

Being from the same country doesn't mean you automatically speak about a compatriot positively. Mourinho wanted Mata to play a different role in a different set up. It didn't suit Mata. There's not necessarily a right or wrong there. As for Hazard...Mourinho or difficult second album? Who knows. But there's two sides. Suggesting all of the above are examples of Mourinho mess-ups is a bit simplistic.

Canadel

Another positive of Mourinho taking charge might be the re-signing of Welbeck at a future date. I know Mourinho stated his admiration for him in a press conference last season and he obviously loves the club. Definitely a player Mourinho could work with in a similar style to Willian but with a higher ceiling. Exciting times ahead.

Cantona's Collars

http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/32433689

jayo26

Canadel wrote: »

Another positive of Mourinho taking charge might be the re-signing of Welbeck at a future date. I know Mourinho stated his admiration for him in a press conference last season and he obviously loves the club. Definitely a player Mourinho could work with in a similar style to Willian but with a higher ceiling. Exciting times ahead.

Where is the positive in that??

Maximus Alexander

jayo26 wrote: »

Whets is the positive in that??

Welbeck is to Canadel the inverse of Fellaini to bangkok.

RobertKK

Guardiola wants Neymar at City is a headline in the Mirror.

StringerBell

RobertKK wrote: »

Guardiola wants Neymar at City is a headline in the Mirror.

I bet Bruce wants him at Hull too

brinty

What have I stumbled upon here ???
Page upon page about us moving for one if the best nanagers in the world and people still want go complain..
Oh well haters gonna hate hate hate

Christ above we could have pep and Jose
Ronnie Messi Neymar on the pitch
Win every game 8-0

And people would still whine....

Ffs lads get on board the bloody #PositivityTrain #positivitytractor...

brinty

What have I stumbled upon here ???
Page upon page about us moving for one if the best nanagers in the world and people still want go complain..
Oh well haters gonna hate hate hate

Christ above we could have pep and Jose
Ronnie Messi Neymar on the pitch
Win every game 8-0

And people would still whine....

Ffs lads get on board the bloody #PositivityTrain #positivitytractor...

Cantona's Collars

brinty wrote: »

What have I stumbled upon here ???
Page upon page about us moving for one if the best nanagers in the world and people still want go complain..
Oh well haters gonna hate hate hate

Christ above we could have pep and Jose
Ronnie Messi Neymar on the pitch
Win every game 8-0

And people would still whine....

Ffs lads get on board the bloody #PositivityTrain #positivitytractor...

I can't find the stats now that I want them but Jose has been in charge of some of the highest scoring teams in the EPL,the whole parking the bus thing is a bit of a myth.Fergie set up United at times to be masters of counter attack football.He also has the best defensive record and isn't afraid of playing younger players.

Look at what was facing us,the prospect of Giggs going up against Pep,Pochettino,Klopp,Raneiri and Wenger.

Cantona's Collars

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qK0bAEazQk

Sand

zerks wrote: »

I can't find the stats now that I want them but Jose has been in charge of some of the highest scoring teams in the EPL,the whole parking the bus thing is a bit of a myth.Fergie set up United at times to be masters of counter attack football.He also has the best defensive record and isn't afraid of playing younger players.

Look at what was facing us,the prospect of Giggs going up against Pep,Pochettino,Klopp,Raneiri and Wenger.

I wouldn't be confident facing Guardiola with Mourinho at the helm. Guardiola beats Mourinho sides significantly more times than Mourinho beats him. In 16 head to heads, Mourinho has only come out the victor 3 times, Guardiola 8 times. Guardiola has won a comparable amount of trophies - including the same amount of CLs- despite giving Mourinho an 8 year head start on the managerial career. Guardiola has spent significantly less than Mourinho to achieve that success, on the order of 50% less. And he has done it playing the sort of football Mourinho despises.

Mourinho obsesses about Guardiola. Guardiola does not obsess about Mourinho. There is a reason for that. The idea that Mourinho is a sure bet for trophies while Guardiola is at City with a better squad and comparable financial resources is wishful thinking. The club could end up in a situation where we have a short term manager with a short term plan that yields no short term success while City reap the rewards of having a long term strategy of which Guardiola is simply the final piece.

My objection to Mourinho is that the club need to have a long term strategy, the fans regularly bemoan City seeming to have their **** together, and yet the answer is Mourinho? Really?

Discodog

Mitch Connor wrote: »

If they have gone for Jose now, why not a month ago and try to get more out of this season?

Jose said something like he wouldn't consider the job whilst his "friend" LvG was there out of courtesy & respect.

GSPfan

Sand wrote: »

I wouldn't be confident facing Guardiola with Mourinho at the helm. Guardiola beats Mourinho sides significantly more times than Mourinho beats him. In 16 head to heads, Mourinho has only come out the victor 3 times, Guardiola 8 times. Guardiola has won a comparable amount of trophies - including the same amount of CLs- despite giving Mourinho an 8 year head start on the managerial career. Guardiola has spent significantly less than Mourinho to achieve that success, on the order of 50% less. And he has done it playing the sort of football Mourinho despises.

Mourinho obsesses about Guardiola. Guardiola does not obsess about Mourinho. There is a reason for that. The idea that Mourinho is a sure bet for trophies while Guardiola is at City with a better squad and comparable financial resources is wishful thinking. The club could end up in a situation where we have a short term manager with a short term plan that yields no short term success while City reap the rewards of having a long term strategy of which Guardiola is simply the final piece.

My objection to Mourinho is that the club need to have a long term strategy, the fans regularly bemoan City seeming to have their **** together, and yet the answer is Mourinho? Really?

If you are comparing stats against Guardiola then who in world football compares to him? If nobody compares to him then who at least is closest to him?

Is it Mourinho? Id guess it is.

Kirby

Sand wrote: »

I wouldn't be confident facing Guardiola with Mourinho at the helm. Guardiola beats Mourinho sides significantly more times than Mourinho beats him. In 16 head to heads, Mourinho has only come out the victor 3 times, Guardiola 8 times.

And how many of those times did Guardiola have Messi?

Look at what happened to Guardiola's Bayern when they played Messi and Barcelona. They got annihilated.

Not being able to stop the greatest player of his generation should not be a stick used to beat any manager with.

GSPfan

Guardiolas achievements at Barcelona were terrific and coincided with the emergence of the greatest footballer ever and one of the best group of players ever assembled. Was his time at Bayern Munich that amazing though?

Sand

GSPfan wrote: »

If you are comparing stats against Guardiola then who in world football compares to him? If nobody compares to him then who at least is closest to him?

Is it Mourinho? Id guess it is.

Guardiola and Mourinho are completely different managers with completely different styles. They are not like for likes only differentiated by success %.

A few posts ago a poster claimed City were planning to appoint Guardiola since at least 2013. Indeed, I would argue they may have been planning since 2012 when they appointed the old Barca DoF as their DoF. They've similarly been planning to put in place their own youth development academy, and their own facilities, right beside their stadium - the sort of infrastructure to impress any player or coach with the intent behind it.

It has been regularly moaned that United legends put their kids in the City youth system and infrastructure rather than the United system. As if United had some sort of right that went beyond simply being the best. I'd agree this is a problem, but the answer is to have a long term strategy of our own rather than picking from a lucky bag of whatever big name managers are unemployed at any given time and expecting them to run first team affairs and drive the clubs football strategy.

Appointing Mourinho, the ultimate short term fix, as a counter to Man City's long term strategy is a joke. The club at least do not seem to be going down that path. If Mourinho is appointed in the summer, some will welcome it, but I would see it as confirmation of the club having absolutely no plan or strategy going beyond the next press conference.

Sand

Kirby wrote: »

And how many of those times did Guardiola have Messi?

Look at what happened to Guardiola's Bayern when they played Messi and Barcelona. They got annihilated.

Not being able to stop the greatest player of his generation should not be a stick used to beat any manager with.

I was told on the last page of this thread that the manager was the most important factor in any teams success. Not the player.

The reality is Guardiola has never been sacked. He has always left on his own terms and he never presided over such a disastrous campaign as Mourinho did for the defending Champions this season.

Also - the defenders of ugly football point to the stats. They say "We won ugly, but we won and thats all that counts". And Mourinho is from that school. And thats fine. But Mourinho plays ugly and he loses to Guardiola. Multiple times. Why then is football something more than the result and the stats then?

Pro. F

Sand wrote: »

It has been regularly moaned that United legends put their kids in the City youth system and infrastructure rather than the United system.

Indeed it has been moaned about, which is quite dumb because it proves absolutely nothing.

Pro. F

It's amazing that people, United fans at that, can talk as if Fergie played as defensively as Mourinho or was as classless as him.

brinty

Sand we get you don't like Mourinhot required from the multiple pages you've posted but not given a viable alternative
Pep was never an option so who's the next best guy out there...
Some fella called Jose who's available so shouldn't we be looking to get him in
From reports ive read Mourinho is prepared to change and adhere to the traditions of attacking football that Manchester United fans demand and play by the standards of the best managers going. J

brinty

Sand we get you don't like Mourinhot required from the multiple pages you've posted but not given a viable alternative
Pep was never an option so who's the next best guy out there...
Some fella called Jose who's available so shouldn't we be looking to get him in
From reports ive read Mourinho is prepared to change and adhere to the traditions of attacking football that Manchester United fans demand and play by the standards of the best managers going. J

Kirby

Sand wrote: »

I was told on the last page of this thread that the manager was the most important factor in any teams success. Not the player.

The reality is Guardiola has never been sacked. He has always left on his own terms and he never presided over such a disastrous campaign as Mourinho did for the defending Champions this season.

Also - the defenders of ugly football point to the stats. They say "We won ugly, but we won and thats all that counts". And Mourinho is from that school. And thats fine. But Mourinho plays ugly and he loses to Guardiola. Multiple times. Why then is football something more than the result and the stats then?

You again have completely sidestepped the post you are quoting. It wasn't even skilfully done.

Guardiola had Messi when he went up against Mourinho. And he won. And when he left Barca and was forced to play against the same player.....he lost. Spectacularly.

You are using the "Guardiola vs Mourinho" metric as some sort of weapon against the man. It isn't. Everybody loses to Barca with Messi. The man at the helm has changed but the result does not. You cant use it as a stick to beat a manager with. It makes no sense and yet you keep doing it.

Sand

Kirby wrote: »

You again have completely sidestepped the post you are quoting. It wasn't even skilfully done.

Guardiola had Messi when he went up against Mourinho. And he won. And when he left Barca and was forced to play against the same player.....he lost. Spectacularly.

You are using the "Guardiola vs Mourinho" metric as some sort of weapon against the man. It isn't. Everybody loses to Barca with Messi. The man at the helm has changed but the result does not. You cant use it as a stick to beat a manager with. It makes no sense and yet you keep doing it.

I haven't sidestepped, I stepped ahead. The point seems to be that Guardiola, the greatest manager of era, is irrelevant compared to Messi, the greatest player of the era. So we cant blame Mourinho for being so inferior to Guardiola when the head to head stats are totted up.

But you know, a page or two back I pointed out that even if Mourinho was the greatest manager in the world, the idea that United should build the club around him was as weird as saying United should build their team around the greatest fullback in the world. Because it has been statistically demonstrated that managers have a minor impact on squad success in the long term, against the player wage bill. The clubs that sign the best players, and have the biggest wage bill tend to get the most success. I was given out to for voicing that view.

Now I am being given out to for pointing out that having Mourinho (or Guardiola for that matter) on the sidelines is not enough to trump having Messi on the pitch.

If managers cannot trump having the better team and the better players, then what exactly is the argument for signing Mourinho? If Mourinho cant beat Guardiola, what exactly is the argument for signing him to...you know...beat Guardiola?

Giggsy11

Can't believe some people are still hanging on to "Jose play defensively" point. Jose's team always scored most goals or second most goals in the league.

His team was third only 1 time and that was the time when his team scored 3rd highest goals.

Mourinho's career statistics (full seasons):
Porto 2002-03: 73 goals, 2nd most goals in the league
Porto 2003-04: 63 goals, most goals in the league
Chelsea 2004-05: 72 goals, 2nd most goals in the league
Chelsea 2005-06: 72 goals, most goals in the league
Chelsea 2006-07: 64 goals, 2nd most goals in the league
Inter 2008-09: 70 goals, most goals in the league
Inter 2009-10: 75 goals, most goals in the league
Real Madrid 2010-11: 102 goals, most goals in the league
Real Madrid 2011-12: 121 goals, most goals in the league (La Liga record, not even the greatest of all time team Barcelona could beat it)
Real Madrid 2012-13: 102 goals, 2nd most goals in the league
Chelsea 2013-14: 71 goals, 3rd most goals in the league (first time he's not in top 2!)
Chelsea 2014-15: 73 goals, 2nd most goals in the league

When it comes to big games, yeah he plays defensively but I can live with that when he can play attacking game against 15-16 teams in the league.

RobertKK

Welbeck couldn't hit a cow's arse with a banjo.

GSPfan

At this stage I dont care how much I dislike Mourinho because I just want to see United winning games again and he almost guarantees that.
If someone can offer an honest suggestion of a manager who can rival Mourinho as a candidate for the United job then dont be shy, tell us.
I'll be honest and tell you i cant stand Mourinho as a football personality for a list of reasons that I wont bore people with but i'd give him the job right now if it were my choice.

Liam McPoyle

Pro. F wrote: »

It's amazing that people, United fans at that, can talk as if Fergie played as defensively as Mourinho or was as classless as him.

That's not what people said though.

beno619

brinty wrote: »

What have I stumbled upon here ???
Page upon page about us moving for one if the best nanagers in the world and people still want go complain..
Oh well haters gonna hate hate hate

Christ above we could have pep and Jose
Ronnie Messi Neymar on the pitch
Win every game 8-0

And people would still whine....

Ffs lads get on board the bloody #PositivityTrain #positivitytractor...

As someone who's been chiming the "Anyone is better than LVG " bell there are very valid reasons to have reservations about Mourinho.

Both sides of the argument have valid points.

I believe he can to tow the party line and behave himself.

My biggest fear would be his non existent use of young players which is reflected in his transfer targets as well.

At this point in the clubs history he may be the nessisary evil to stop the club going into a Poolesqe level of underachievement.

Mourinho would banish the small club mentality that has crept into the fanbase since Fergie retired.

sReq | uTeK

beno619 wrote: »

As someone who's been chiming the "Anyone is better than LVG " bell there are very valid reasons to have reservations about Mourinho.

Both sides of the argument have valid points.

I believe he can to tow the party line and behave himself.

My biggest fear would be his non existent use of young players which is reflected in his transfer targets as well.

At this point in the clubs history he may be the nessisary evil to stop the club going into a Poolesqe level of underachievement.

Mourinho would banish the small club mentality that has crept into the fanbase since Fergie retired.

Were Hazard / Oscar relatively young when he moved for them. I couldn't care less if he buys or promotes youth so long as it's a young squad. You could argue in Fergie later years he didn't do to much youth promotion alienating the likes of Pogba when it looked like we were crying out for him.

You can also argue that LVG has laid the foundation for him.

Martial, Depay, Darmian, CBJ, Varela

hufpc8w3adnk65

For a manager who "falls out" with everyone it's strange how the likes of Ronaldo, Cesc & now Hazard all had the chance too stick the knife in yet all didn't!

adox

I do think some people don't realise how much **** Utd are in and how far things have gone.

Next appointment is last chance saloon at not having an extended period as also rans and Mourhino is the man to redress the last three seasons.

It may may short term thinking and it may well end in tears but needs must and it would be negligent of the club to go down another route IMO.

Maximus Alexander

adox wrote: »

I do think some people don't realise how much **** Utd are in and how far things have gone.

Next appointment is last chance saloon at not having an extended period as also rans and Mourhino is the man to redress the last three seasons.

It may may short eat thinking and it may well end in tears but needs must and it would be negligent of the club to go down another route IMO.

To be honest, people are painting him as some sort of messianic figure. I mean here you're pretty much literally saying that he's the only man in the world of football who can save United. I don't think one has to be ignorant of the trouble United are in to disagree with that.

fuzzydunlop85

I know I'm getting ahead of myself here,but just wondering which players in our current squad people think would flourish/flounder in a Mourinho side? I think Darmian could be fantastic in a Jose team, woeful going forward but solid defensively. Don't think he'd be expected to bomb forward much and he could just focus on defending. Schneiderlin would prosper aswell I think. Would worry for Mata(obv). Can't see Depay or Fellani lasting either. I like Blind but can't see where he would fit in a Jose side. Think Rooney would have been benched by September if Jose was in charge this season. If he is appointed hopefully it will light a fire under his arse, despite his recent good form I'm struggling to forgive his toxic performances the first 6 months of the season.

Hank Scorpio

I for one, welcome our new Portuguese overlord.

jayo26

For the day thats in it.

jayo26

Going on a stag party later and the groom is a hipster man city fan, wouldnt make for a good stag party but God id love it if Leicester got a win. Haha

Rossi IRL

jayo26 wrote: »

Going on a stag party later and the groom is a hipster man city fan, wouldnt make for a good stag party but God id love it if Leicester got a win. Haha

For the very slight chance that we have, a 0-0 will do but other than that cmon Leicester.

jayo26

Rossi IRL wrote: »

For the very slight chance that we have, a 0-0 will do but other than that cmon Leicester.

Ahh yhh true we only 8 points off top spot if that happens. It be nice for arsenal or spurs to mess up this weekend too and we get a win it be right close then.

Maximus Alexander

jayo26 wrote: »

Ahh yhh true we only 8 points off top spot if that happens. It be nice for arsenal or spurs to mess up this weekend too and we get a win it be right close then.

...

If City and Leicester draw we'll be 11 points off the top spot.

jayo26

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

...

If City and Leicester draw we'll be 11 points off the top spot.

Optimistic head on me counting 3 points tomorrow. I must remember to be correct sorry max.

Maximus Alexander

jayo26 wrote: »

Optimistic head on me counting 3 points tomorrow. I must remember to be correct sorry max.

Hah! That's very optimistic. Get back on your tractor so. :P

fuzzydunlop85

jayo26 wrote: »

For the day thats in it.

Remember meeting Harry Gregg outside the cliff as a young fella, my auld man pointed him out to me. What an absolute hero.

jayo26

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Hah! That's very optimistic. Get back on your tractor so. :P

I dont do tractors im sticking with the train I like having my beers and sandwiches as I travel.

Rossi IRL

jayo26 wrote: »

I dont do tractors im sticking with the train I like having my beers and sandwiches as I travel.

Nothin like the smell of slurry to go with your ham sandwiches though.:cool:

jayo26

Rossi IRL wrote: »

Nothin like the smell of slurry to go with your ham sandwiches though.:cool:

Your right they aint nothing like it haha

I was fully expecting to see RobertKK after liking your post but no it was businesscat haha.