Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2015 Mod Note Post #2331

TheDoc

TheTownie wrote: »

Few quotes from Ed;

I thoroughly enjoyed that first one haha.

finally somewhere were United players will fetch a proper fee? £25m for Ramires was a ****ing laugh

bucketybuck

brinty wrote: »

For all the talk of the academy's at Chelsea and Citeh, how many genuine first team players has either produce in recent memory??
Terry at Chelsea and that's it. Hart was purchased by Citeh from Charlton or shrewsbury or someone as a teenager (although the same could be said about Janujaz or Perreira)
So they can spend all the like on great academies but if they still don't give those players a chance they might as well stop wasting money and just buy the players in..

Their spending in those areas only really started ramping up within the last 5/6 years, Cities new academy only opened officially in 2014 for example. You can't expect to see first team players only 2 years later, it will take a long time for even a revolutionary youth system to start producing players of that standard.

Hococop

TheDoc wrote: »

I thoroughly enjoyed that first one haha.

finally somewhere were United players will fetch a proper fee? £25m for Ramires was a ****ing laugh

Don't know how Chelsea can get so much money from selling these players, heard they offered £55 million for Oscar, crazy

Hococop

bucketybuck wrote: »

Their spending in those areas only really started ramping up within the last 5/6 years, Cities new academy only opened officially in 2014 for example. You can't expect to see first team players only 2 years later, it will take a long time for even a revolutionary youth system to start producing players of that standard.

Pretty sure Chelsea said in 2007/08 they would be having at least one new academy player in the team every season or two and so far I can't think of any

bangkok

we could have sold rvp or nani to china for 20m plus for the name alone!!

bucketybuck

Hococop wrote: »

Pretty sure Chelsea said in 2007/08 they would be having at least one new academy player in the team every season or two and so far I can't think of any

Ah well, for consistency we have to blame Mourinho for that.

Your Airbag

homerjay2005 wrote: »

United vice-chairman Ed Woodward said: "Our strong commitment to investing in our squad, youth academy and the broader club are ultimately underpinned by our financial strength and the hard work and dedication of everyone at the Club.

"Our solid results off the pitch help contribute to what remains our number one priority - success on the pitch."

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11667/10163107/manchester-united-happy-with-louis-van-gaal-amid-jose-mourinho-job-speculation

ya right, priority if $$$ for the Glazers and everything else comes secondary. they will learn eventually that the money will drop if the football doesnt follow but the last 3-6 months has shown that at the moment, this concept seems lost on them.

Lol wot? How you can put this tripe out there with a straight face is beyond me.

They have forked out 220m recently, they sacked Moyes when top four was impossible show exactly how clearly they understand how much "the money will drop if the football doesnt follow" Fergie said he always had their financial backing when he went to them, LVG also and he is not a man too shy to throw someone under the bus.

"All the Glazers care about is $$$" yet they spend hundreds of millions on the first team. Does not compute, does not compute.

Pro. F

Mitch Connor wrote: »

From reading the opinions of people involved in youth football to varying degrees around Manchester and nationally (on UWS and RI), I would say the youth stories have hardly scratched the surface, to be honest.

But, i've no first hand proof myself (obviously) so it is nowt more than speculation and conjecture.

Any links or can you relay any of the stories? All I've heard is that City are building expensive facilities, former United players are "sending" their kids to City's academy and that United have had an acting director of the academy for a while (I can't remember the exact name of the position), none of which sounds worrying to me.

bucketybuck

Your Airbag wrote: »

they sacked Moyes when top four was impossible show exactly how clearly they understand

Maybe if they'd done it when top four was still possible we could have gotten somewhere, think they still haven't learned that lesson unfortunately.

Your Airbag

All this talk of City investing in their stadium and youth policy has sent some reactionary people into a tail spin.

City have to invest in their stadium and youth policy and we don't because both of ours are far superior.

We have the biggest and best stadium in the UK and a Youth policy that has given us a first team player for decades. People act like City are overtaking us and are some sort of radical modern innovators whilst UTD are being left behind.

Infrastructurally City are not overtaking us, they are playing catch up.

bucketybuck

Your Airbag wrote: »

All this talk of City investing in their stadium and youth policy has sent some reactionary people into a tail spin.

City have to invest in their stadium and youth policy and we don't because both of ours are far superior.

We have the biggest and best stadium in the UK and a Youth policy that has given us a first team player for decades. People act like City are overtaking us and are some sort of radical modern innovators whilst UTD are being left behind.

Infrastructurally City are not overtaking us, they are playing catch up.

The biggest mistake a forward thinking company can make is to believe shite like that.

astonaidan

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Much like any academy (apart from Barcelona it would appear) it is difficult to produce players that are capable of starting and winning champions league finals, which is the goal for each of these clubs. The odds of doing it are small.

However, looking at the respective quality of the academies when they play against each other I see a clear gap between United and City/Chelsea - they are bigger, stronger, faster and better. In both academies there are two or three players that could make the grade, but they may fall by teh wayside like Morrison did at United, or never progress from very promising like Jones, Tunnicliffe, Petriucci - or 'just' become good level PL players (or similar) such as possible PL winners Danny Drinkwater, Danny Simpson or Matt James (if he wasn't injured).

They haven't produced a world class (or top class) player YET, but imo it takes years of structural, cultural changes to show benefits in this area - the chelsea and city academies are now the best in the country and city's is possibly being on the way to be the best in the world. Will they produce a top talent, impossible to say, but there is a better chance there than most places.

As an aside - there are some very tasty looking players at United; Gribbon, Menseh and Tuanzebe being the standouts imo; they could be very good players.

There are talented players at United, I'm not arguing against that - but as a group in terms of overall quality and indeed quantity, there are question marks over the U18s group and below.

This isnt really the case in the last few years, much was said about how Pep intergrated young lads into the team, but look at the starting 11 at the club and well its not all that home grown.
The big teams in the world arent bringing players through anymore, their is a win now mentality that well doesnt really allow it
Like United have a 3 of the top prospects in the world, but only Shaw is even English. City have the young Nigerian who for me will be a star. Even Arsenal arent bringing players through as much since they got stadium payed off

Some news for the match this weekend; looks like its a very good time to be playing Sunderland

"Sam Allardyce is facing a bit of an injury crisis ahead of this weekend.

He’s lost Johnson, he’s already without Sebastian Larsson and Younes Kaboul and now there are the two other players to add to the treatment table at the Stadium of Light."

user2011

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Some news for the match this weekend; looks like its a very good time to be playing Sunderland

"Sam Allardyce is facing a bit of an injury crisis ahead of this weekend.

He’s lost Johnson, he’s already without Sebastian Larsson and Younes Kaboul and now there are the two other players to add to the treatment table at the Stadium of Light."

It's a good thing for Sunderland Kaboul is missing. Who is the other two?

Your Airbag

bucketybuck wrote: »

The biggest mistake a forward thinking company can make is to believe shite like that.

So what exactly do you think is wrong with UTD's infrastructural setup outside of the first team that City are doing better than us and we need to improve on?

Rayne Wooney

Your Airbag wrote: »

All this talk of City investing in their stadium and youth policy has sent some reactionary people into a tail spin.

City have to invest in their stadium and youth policy and we don't because both of ours are far superior.

We have the biggest and best stadium in the UK and a Youth policy that has given us a first team player for decades. People act like City are overtaking us and are some sort of radical modern innovators whilst UTD are being left behind.

Infrastructurally City are not overtaking us, they are playing catch up.

they are growing at a faster rate than we are eventually they will catch up if we appoint someone like Giggs.

Thankfully it looks like the club know better and will get Mourinho

TheTownie

For those who would like to hear Ed's voice you can find the conference call here --> https://clyp.it/dmbllkgp

bucketybuck

Your Airbag wrote: »

So what exactly do you think is wrong with UTD's infrastructural setup outside of the first team that City are doing better than us and we need to improve on?

A full and detailed analysis of both United and Cities internal structures is not necessary for the simple point I made.

"Those who stand still fall behind" is a simple maxim for any business, and by far the worst thing a strong company can do when faced with an improving competitor is convince themselves that they are strong and don't need to do anything differently. Continuous improvement is not just a buzzword and history is full of failed companies that thought they were grand just the way they were.

Its a simple point, though perhaps too "reactionary" for you.

Your Airbag

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

they are growing at a faster rate than we are eventually they will catch up if we appoint someone like Giggs.

Thankfully it looks like the club know better and will get Mourinho

How much of a say does the manager actually have in those Infrastructural decisions though. Extending the stadium and improvements to youth facilaties would be an executive board decision more than a managers decision.

I know LVG had some improvements made when he started first but they were minor iirc.

As for Jose being a better candidate than Giggs to stop City overtaking us infrastructurally I would say the opposite is true. Jose has a poor record with bringing youth through to the first team, almost non existant, he always seems to buy his first team.

Giggs on the other hand was a product of our youth system that produced an aamzing core of first team players so he has seen first hand how it operates. This is no way me meaning he is better for the job than Jose but if your expecting Jose to work wonders with the youth system prepare to be dissappointed, he will largely ignore it imo.

Liam O

I'd regard recruitment as a vastly more important thing to be worried about than facilities with regards youth players tbh. City's new shiny facilities are hardly going to be a million miles better than United's to mean that if the next Ronaldo or Messi wound up at either that he would be better at one over the other.

Your Airbag

bucketybuck wrote: »

A full and detailed analysis of both United and Cities internal structures is not necessary for the simple point I made.

"Those who stand still fall behind" is a simple maxim for any business, and by far the worst thing a strong company can do when faced with an improving competitor is convince themselves that they are strong and don't need to do anything differently. Continuous improvement is not just a buzzword and history is full of failed companies that thought they were grand just the way they were.

Its a simple point, though perhaps too "reactionary" for you.

How are we standing still if we are better off than City in those departments? how do you know of exactly whats going on with our youth setup and future plans? do you think stadium needs expansion is a priority for us right now? Utd are not iyo contiously improving?

I didn't ask for a full and detailed analysis either, any form of discussion would do so that's just you sherking the question.

And yes, comparing UTD a Club commerically the best in the UK for decades to some sort of start up business who is at risk of failing because of a competitor is completely reactionary.

TheDoc

Your Airbag wrote: »

All this talk of City investing in their stadium and youth policy has sent some reactionary people into a tail spin.

City have to invest in their stadium and youth policy and we don't because both of ours are far superior.

We have the biggest and best stadium in the UK and a Youth policy that has given us a first team player for decades. People act like City are overtaking us and are some sort of radical modern innovators whilst UTD are being left behind.

Infrastructurally City are not overtaking us, they are playing catch up.

While obviously there is a certain issue regarding the validity of the people writing the stories, but there appears to be general consensus in terms of the theme running through stories from the Manchester based journalists as well as the wider ones, that we have rested on our holes harping back to the class of 92, while City have gone to great lengths to improve their infrastructure and structure, along with offering very enticing packages to the top youth prospects around Europe, South America and Africa.

When you stand still in top flight football, you get left behind pretty quickly.

I think the Class of '92 aftermath, as in, the retrospective look on their careers when they retired, has been allowed mask the general disappointment our acadamy has been, with specific reference to nurturing elite talent to integrate into the first team.

Strumms

If the United facilities were not fit for purpose then we would have an issue. A club like United would and will not let that happen you can be assured. The likes of city with their newer shiny facilities well good for them. They have the resources to do it. What did everyone think they would be spending their wealth on if not investing in the team and facilities ? Either way they don't have the greatest record have they when it comes to bringing kids through from underage to the first team...

I see it as more important that we have the people in place ie. the coaches, scouts etc to get the best young talent to United and oversee their development while they are here. All this moaning is almost like an auld one looking over the garden fence at the neighbors new conservatory and wanting a bigger one themselves.

jayo26

In regards to money been spent by city i think the single most important thing is while it looks impressive one of the most important things a kid or his parents will look at is the amount of players coming threw the youth setup and getting a chance in first team to showcase their abilities to either succeed at the club or be spotted by another club that they can make a career in the game.

Off the top of my head city only have one promising young lad in their first team thats iheancho or whatever his name is they haven't got anyone else even with a few decent games. We have given a number of games to cbj, lingard, Januzaj, Wilson, blackett, mcnair in the past 3 years alone. Now they might not be world beaters but they got a chance to play and should earn a move to another top club at least.

user2011

Ed talking about youth setup,

"We took the departure of [former academy chief] Brian McClair last summer as the chance to do a root and branch review of the academy," he said. "That is now complete and changes are under way, and announcements will follow in the coming days.

"I think in terms of the future, our key competitive advantages are still very strong, and the two I would call out are an unmatched record of player development, compared to any other team, particularly in England, and secondly the runway of first-team opportunities we deliver to those players coming through, again very different to some of our competitors."

https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/united-poised-more-heavy-spending-155900348.html

Rossi IRL

Cant wait for the game tonight, it should be a good game.

Hopefully we see Depay again, i enjoyed watching him the other night even though it was a u21 game.

glued

user2011 wrote: »

Ed talking about youth setup,

"We took the departure of [former academy chief] Brian McClair last summer as the chance to do a root and branch review of the academy," he said. "That is now complete and changes are under way, and announcements will follow in the coming days.

"I think in terms of the future, our key competitive advantages are still very strong, and the two I would call out are an unmatched record of player development, compared to any other team, particularly in England, and secondly the runway of first-team opportunities we deliver to those players coming through, again very different to some of our competitors."

https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/united-poised-more-heavy-spending-155900348.html

That's just not true. While we have developed players; we haven't been able to develop them to the standard expected of a first team Manchester United player. This is where I see a massive drawback of not having a director of football to oversee the development of the club from a football perspective.

Mantis Toboggan

Leaks leaks and more leaks, Ed must have a serious PR team

Pro. F

glued wrote: »

That's just not true. While we have developed players; we haven't been able to develop them to the standard expected of a first team Manchester United player. This is where I see a massive drawback of not having a director of football to oversee the development of the club from a football perspective.

Who is it that has a better record of youth player development in England?

Mitch Connor

Pro. F wrote: »

Any links or can you relay any of the stories? All I've heard is that City are building expensive facilities, former United players are "sending" their kids to City's academy and that United have had an acting director of the academy for a while (I can't remember the exact name of the position), none of which sounds worrying to me.

A number of people involved with youth teams around Manchester have said there is very little scouting or contact from United at a local level, whereas City have scouts all over the place - a local lad is far more likely to be seen and/or scouted by City than United. City also have a far better relationship with local schools and show more interest, in general in the locality. Scouting internationally is also said to be sub par, i'd get less anecdotes on that score.

City pay their coaches more money (and they have more of them for the different age groups) which gets them better coaches (you get what you pay for). I think a large portion of the United youth coaches are part time too.

It is the club secretary is one of the two people in charge of the academy - the other is the former head of youth recruitment (I think that was his role) of the FA - he is highly rated, but the club secretary isn't experienced in such a role, nor is it something that should be expected of him.

In saying this, Woodward is stating that there is significant changes to the youth structures to be announced "imminently".

Its rumoured McClair is, eventually, going to be replaced by two people (one might be the guy that is already there - the former FA guy). There is talk of a new academy stadium being built (I'd be shocked on that one, to be honest). This, along with talk of a possible sporting director of sorts give me cause for optimism that people at the club are actively trying to fix the problems at the club (as i see them).

Kerrydude1981

Rossi IRL wrote: »

Cant wait for the game tonight, it should be a good game.

Hopefully we see Depay again, i enjoyed watching him the other night even though it was a u21 game.

Forgot all about it,

Cheers for the reminder

Discodog

I was listening to a sports economist talking about the new tv deal & ticket prices. He said the clubs were getting enough new money that they could close the turnstiles, have an empty stadium & still be better off than before :eek:

Mitch Connor

Discodog wrote: »

I was listening to a sports economist talking about the new tv deal & ticket prices. He said the clubs were getting enough new money that they could close the turnstiles, have an empty stadium & still be better off than before :eek:

Indeed - but the players will demand higher wages and clubs will demand higher transfer fees. The more money that come in to the clubs, the more that goes to agents and players.

jayo26

Pro. F wrote: »

Who is it that has a better record of youth player development in England?

Id say Southampton in last ten years and before that arry had the hammers going well. Spurs have done pretty ok too i think.

Since 92 group we have produced alot of average young players but we have not produced enough high quality on consistent basis but not many top teams in Europe do tho.

Rossi IRL

No Pereira or Depay tonight


Regan Poole starts. I think it might be his 1st u21 game since signing.

Mitch Connor

jayo26 wrote: »

Id say Southampton in last ten years and before that arry had the hammers going well. Spurs have done pretty ok too i think.

Since 92 group we have produced alot of average young players but we have not produced enough high quality on consistent basis but not many top teams in Europe do tho.

Who has come through at Spurs? Harry Kane recently, obviously, but who else? Can't think of any myself. Danny Rose, maybe, though he was signed from Leeds I think and loaned out a lot, don't think I'd class him as a product of their youth development.

Obviously you can look at them giving a player like Deli Ali a shot this season, but again - he is a signing rather than a youth product of their own.

Southamptons youth production has been great of late alright, for a good while - from Walcott/Bale through to Shaw and they have another couple that are interesting the big clubs at the moment.

The Lampard/Carrick/Ferdinand generation at West Ham was amazing.

Mitch Connor

Rossi IRL wrote: »

No Pereira or Depay tonight


Regan Poole starts. I think it might be his 1st u21 game since signing.

Yep, a much weaker U21 side tonight - though i'd have faith in Joyce to get the most out of them.

Poole's under 21 debut alright. In the Euro squad too - will be interesting to see how he gets on.

TheTownie

Rossi IRL wrote: »

No Pereira or Depay tonight


Regan Poole starts. I think it might be his 1st u21 game since signing.

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Yep, a much weaker U21 side tonight - though i'd have faith in Joyce to get the most out of them.

Poole's under 21 debut alright. In the Euro squad too - will be interesting to see how he gets on.

It's Poole's first start. He made his debut in the last minute against Everton U21s.

Manutd_4life

Anyone reckon there will be any chants from United fans about Johnson on Saturday.

He just got sacked, the be**end

Rossi IRL

Manutd_4life wrote: »

Anyone reckon there will be any chants from United fans about Johnson on Saturday.

He just got sacked, the be**end

Id hope there be a few from both sets of fans. Scum

jayo26

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Who has come through at Spurs? Harry Kane recently, obviously, but who else? Can't think of any myself. Danny Rose, maybe, though he was signed from Leeds I think and loaned out a lot, don't think I'd class him as a product of their youth development.

Obviously you can look at them giving a player like Deli Ali a shot this season, but again - he is a signing rather than a youth product of their own.

Southamptons youth production has been great of late alright, for a good while - from Walcott/Bale through to Shaw and they have another couple that are interesting the big clubs at the moment.

The Lampard/Carrick/Ferdinand generation at West Ham was amazing.

they had a few good ones turn of century too with camble, King and crouch but of late its probablyJust kane, did dyre come through there's? And walker and townshend.

West Hams team would of probably matched the class of 92 for quality its just they couldn't keep them together they had Lampard, Ferdinand, Carrick, defoe, Joe Cole, few years after Glen Johnson.

Kerrydude1981

What a blast from the past there, the lads on MUTV talking about Simon Davies

jayo26

Rossi IRL wrote: »

Id hope there be a few from both sets of fans. Scum

While I appreciate he is scum I don't think a football stadium is the place to be taunting someone while his victim is dealing with it.

Rossi IRL

jayo26 wrote: »

While I appreciate he is scum I don't think a football stadium is the place to be taunting someone while his victim is dealing with it.

Fair point, never even thought of that.

Rossi IRL

Nice goal.

Assist from Keane, Rothwell with a tidy finish.

LeeJM

1-0 Rothwell. Really good ball by F.Mensah, great forward play by Keane and very composed by Rothwell.

Kerrydude1981

Nice finish by Rothwell,Utd up 1 nil

dubmick

Yep, lovely move. Might have been mentioned earlier but this game is on BT Sport.

Your Airbag

TheDoc wrote: »

While obviously there is a certain issue regarding the validity of the people writing the stories, but there appears to be general consensus in terms of the theme running through stories from the Manchester based journalists as well as the wider ones, that we have rested on our holes harping back to the class of 92, while City have gone to great lengths to improve their infrastructure and structure, along with offering very enticing packages to the top youth prospects around Europe, South America and Africa.

When you stand still in top flight football, you get left behind pretty quickly.

I think the Class of '92 aftermath, as in, the retrospective look on their careers when they retired, has been allowed mask the general disappointment our acadamy has been, with specific reference to nurturing elite talent to integrate into the first team.

This narrative has been popular with the press since Fergie retired. Its popular to hate UTD right now and paint City as the cool kids.

The press are enjoying watching us falter after years of stirct dressing downs from Fergie and unrivaled success. There was an even an article last week titled something along the lines of "UTD are struggling and its right that we revel in it".

The reality however is different.

Kerrydude1981

dubmick wrote: »

Yep, lovely move. Might have been mentioned earlier but this game is on BT Sport.

Is Michael Owen or Robbie Savage on?