Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2015 Mod Note Post #2331

bangkok

Coat22 wrote: »

Agreed - he is our best defender - doesn't say much though

and one of the best defenders in Europe.... just saying

Pro. F

Coat22 wrote: »

Eh...that's because he did play in 37 games (for United) that season.....

Ah right, I thought you were talking about league games, not all competitions. So you pass the basic test of rationality, good stuff.

On to the next bit. Rooney was playing as a number 10 (and in central midfield towards the end of the season), had a few injuries and was falling out with the manager. So going six games without scoring is a non-issue, to say nothing of going 3 games.

Coat22

Pro. F wrote: »

Ah right, I thought you were talking about league games, not all competitions. So you pass the basic test of rationality, good stuff.

On to the next bit. Rooney was playing as a number 10 (and in central midfield towards the end of the season), had a few injuries and was falling out with the manager. So going six games without scoring is a non-issue, to say nothing of going 3 games.

Well thanks for your seal of approval.

homerjay2005

interesting comments from Scholes again last night, just seen them.

"I was going to say ignore your manager, you need to take responsibility yourself sometimes".

"people like Rooney and Carrick know what playing for this club is all about - being positive, passing the ball forward, taking risks."

"even while the manager is doing his team talk, i would be thinking right im going to pass the ball forward tonight, im going to run, tackle and everything a manchester United player should be doing".

"Morgan looks a shell of himself, we seen how good a player he was last year. they talk about red zones, i dont know how United players can be in the red zones when they dont run."

Pro. F

Scholes is shítting himself as a pundit. He tries to be controversial, but then back-tracks when he's called on it. Avoiding calling for the manager to be sacked while saying that the players should ignore him is just Scholes tying himself into knots, because he doesn't want to have to defend a controversial argument.

Maximus Alexander

homerjay2005 wrote: »

interesting comments from Scholes again last night, just seen them.

"I was going to say ignore your manager, you need to take responsibility yourself sometimes".

"people like Rooney and Carrick know what playing for this club is all about - being positive, passing the ball forward, taking risks."

"even while the manager is doing his team talk, i would be thinking right im going to pass the ball forward tonight, im going to run, tackle and everything a manchester United player should be doing".

"Morgan looks a shell of himself, we seen how good a player he was last year. they talk about red zones, i dont know how United players can be in the red zones when they dont run."

Scholes is obviously too emotionally invested to be able to talk sense about this. The bolded part is just nonsense like, no matter how dissatisfied you are with the manager, eleven players just doing their own thing is going to be far worse.

bangkok

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Scholes is obviously too emotionally invested to be able to talk sense about this. The bolded part is just nonsense like, no matter how dissatisfied you are with the manager, eleven players just doing their own thing is going to be far worse.

he is correct though, Morgan is a shadow of the player he was at Southampton. Remember his performances last year v Arsenal, Chelsea and ourselves. he was a beast, dominating midfield, he looks like a lost child at the moment

secman

Dare say Scholes was just sent out to play...didn't need to be told anything else... a brilliant brilliant player ... that any forward worth his salt would love to play with. His vision was superb..... knew exactly what he was going to do before the ball came to him. . Pure genius . It really would be amazing if he had anything good to say about the current set up ... donkeys in midfield compared to him.

bucketybuck

homerjay2005 wrote: »

"Morgan looks a shell of himself, we seen how good a player he was last year. they talk about red zones, i dont know how United players can be in the red zones when they dont run."

He's not wrong though, Morgan has played only 18 games this season, all in a defensive position, why exactly is he in the "red" zone? Is he that unfit?

Why did Herrera look so gassed last night, is he also unfit? Is there a problem with fitness training at the club?

bangkok

secman wrote: »

Dare say Scholes was just sent out to play...didn't need to be told anything else... a brilliant brilliant player ... that any forward worth his salt would love to play with. His vision was superb..... knew exactly what he was going to do before the ball came to him. . Pure genius . It really would be amazing if he had anything good to say about the current set up ... donkeys in midfield compared to him.

well in Roy Keane's book, he tells the story of how there were all in a team meeting about playing Tottenham. Fergie walked in and said "its spurs" and that was it. Keane said it was brilliant. They went out and won the game easy.

I think van gaal has over complicated everything and the players are confused, playing with limits and the results are showing

homerjay2005

bangkok wrote: »

well in Roy Keane's book, he tells the story of how there were all in a team meeting about playing Tottenham. Fergie walked in and said "its spurs" and that was it. Keane said it was brilliant. They went out and won the game easy.

I think van gaal has over complicated everything and the players are confused, playing with limits and the results are showing

football is a very very simple game. it does appear that LVG thinks otherwise.

Maximus Alexander

homerjay2005 wrote: »

football is a very very simple game. it does appear that LVG thinks otherwise.

Chess is a pretty simple game too. The best games usually are.

TheDoc

Discodog wrote: »

I wonder how much of this is down to Gigg's assessment of the opposition. LvG made a big play of how Giggs does this prior to every game. I wonder if he is still doing this ?

If so, fair play to Giggs. I thought it was a brilliant plan that was working incredibly effectively. You could see how it was going to play out.

That the team had a capitulation was the most frustrating part, and one you can't factor in.

Is that maybe being overlooked? Am I incorrect in that assertion?

I thought Martial was deployed on the right to torment a questionable LB, and Lingaard on the left to exploit a RB who likes to venture forward and leave massive gaps.

We circled Newcastle possesion when they entered our half, to launch quick counter attacks, in behind the space that Newcastle were leaving by pushing up totally out of shape and without care.

I know hypothetical, but I'd say if Lingaard and/or Fellaini bury their chances, or rooney, and we cruise to a 3-1 or 4-1 scoreline, it would be hailed as a tactical masterclass. (ok that might be extreme, but you get my point)

TheDoc

Coat22 wrote: »

Right Ted. And we were only after Ramos as Smalling's understudy

I think we all assumed that Ramos or Hummels would be getting deployed alongside Smalling?

his upward trajectory in terms of performance levels started last season, did it not?

TheDoc

Pro. F wrote: »

Scholes is shítting himself as a pundit. He tries to be controversial, but then back-tracks when he's called on it. Avoiding calling for the manager to be sacked while saying that the players should ignore him is just Scholes tying himself into knots, because he doesn't want to have to defend a controversial argument.

This. It's totally fine for people to change opinion and tact and view, but as you say he is twisting himself into knots.

He mentioned after the Sheffield game how he is finding it hard to defend this team, as hard as he has tried this season. Utter nonsense, he has never once looked at United this year objectively, instead putting forward his contrived viewpoint.

He is also getting an incredibly easy ride on BT, without being challenged. A stronger presenter would be putting some questions to him.

I don't want him embarrassed or anything, but he is being allowed to have an unchallenged view, which seems to be forming part of the media narrative after every single game. And considering his views and opinions can be highly questionable at times, I don't think that is right.

Coat22

TheDoc wrote: »

I think we all assumed that Ramos or Hummels would be getting deployed alongside Smalling?

his upward trajectory in terms of performance levels started last season, did it not?

In the last 3 months of last season.

Ramos (not sure about Hummels) would have been a replacement as he's right footed and VG has this obsession with one right one left so it would have been Ramos and Blind/Rojo

Smalling said last week he thought Ramos was being sought to replace him

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/manchester-united-defender-chris-smalling-7121481

TheDoc

secman wrote: »

Dare say Scholes was just sent out to play...didn't need to be told anything else... a brilliant brilliant player ... that any forward worth his salt would love to play with. His vision was superb..... knew exactly what he was going to do before the ball came to him. . Pure genius . It really would be amazing if he had anything good to say about the current set up ... donkeys in midfield compared to him.

I think it's wonderfully forgetful on his, and others parts about some of the poor teams he was apart of, some poor performances, shock defeats, and titles that were lost while he was present.

The plaudits for Scholes about his genius came very late in his career, in terms of the majority acceptance. There is a reason for that. There was times and points in his career where questions were being asked, and he wasnt the midfield genius that is so widely accepted now.

I'm not trying to be contrive, but I think he would do well to remember there was questions over him for a portion of his career, that he was part of sides that lost games, played ****, lost titles etc.

The swashbuckling football that commentators and media keep repeating, wasn't built in a season, and came after years and years of Ferguson at work.

Obviously everyone looks backward with rose tinted glasses when it comes to nostalgia, or when things were better. But there are a few myths, with no basis in reality, that are adding unnecessary pressure on the team.

bangkok

homerjay2005 wrote: »

football is a very very simple game. it does appear that LVG thinks otherwise.

100% he does. Long meetings etc where players lose focus and get bored quiet easily are not needed imo.

think it was van der vaart said a few years ago he played some of his best football under harry redknapp at spurs as there wasn't long boring meetings and tactic boards.

Fair enough you do tactics on who picks up who for corners/free kicks etc but Id say van gaal goes into serious detail that is not needed at all and players are confused

castletownman

http://www.squawka.com/comparison-matrix#premier_league/2015/2016/jonny_evans/165/165/574/48/p|premier_league/2015/2016/chris_smalling/165/165/584/0/p#defence_score/clearances/goals_scored/interceptions/tackles_won/blocks/yellow_cards#total

Looks like there is feck all difference between Smalling and Evans this season, if squawka is anything to go by. Evans is actually sixth in the entire league for interceptions with 3.3 on average per game (with N'Golo Kante leading the way with 4.1 per game). In the nine games since United defeated West Brom 2-0, Smalling has accumulated 20 FPL points as opposed to 28 from Evans.

So while stats can be used in various ways to get a point across (heck, it's a stable for anyone trying to justify/write off a potential signing, or to defend assertations that a player from a club one supports is better than a player from another one), in reality it shows that the gap between Smalling and Evans is a lot smaller than one between supposedly "one of the best centre-halves in Europe" and a United "cast-off".

Jonny would be performing at the same level as Chris currently is in the defensive system. His departure is every much a folly from van Gaal as the transfer of Rafael, Nani and Chico. And Smalling's standing as the best defender in the club at present (he probably is to be fair) is an indictment on how far the club's stock has fallen in recent years.

cowboyBuilder

Sorry lads, I'm sure it's been discussed, I'm just lazy to go through pages of this thread, whould you take Mourinho now as manager ?
or even as interim manager ?

Pro. F

TheDoc wrote: »

If so, fair play to Giggs. I thought it was a brilliant plan that was working incredibly effectively. You could see how it was going to play out.

That the team had a capitulation was the most frustrating part, and one you can't factor in.

Is that maybe being overlooked? Am I incorrect in that assertion?

I thought Martial was deployed on the right to torment a questionable LB, and Lingaard on the left to exploit a RB who likes to venture forward and leave massive gaps.

We circled Newcastle possesion when they entered our half, to launch quick counter attacks, in behind the space that Newcastle were leaving by pushing up totally out of shape and without care.

I know hypothetical, but I'd say if Lingaard and/or Fellaini bury their chances, or rooney, and we cruise to a 3-1 or 4-1 scoreline, it would be hailed as a tactical masterclass. (ok that might be extreme, but you get my point)

You are talking about some extremely basic football tactics here. The type of thing that you can see deployed by well organised youth teams in Ireland every weekend.

Liam O

castletownman wrote: »

http://www.squawka.com/comparison-matrix#premier_league/2015/2016/jonny_evans/165/165/574/48/p|premier_league/2015/2016/chris_smalling/165/165/584/0/p#defence_score/clearances/goals_scored/interceptions/tackles_won/blocks/yellow_cards#total

Looks like there is feck all difference between Smalling and Evans this season, if squawka is anything to go by. Evans is actually sixth in the entire league for interceptions with 3.3 on average per game (with N'Golo Kante leading the way with 4.1 per game). In the nine games since United defeated West Brom 2-0, Smalling has accumulated 20 FPL points as opposed to 28 from Evans.

So while stats can be used in various ways to get a point across (heck, it's a stable for anyone trying to justify/write off a potential signing, or to defend assertations that a player from a club one supports is better than a player from another one), in reality it shows that the gap between Smalling and Evans is a lot smaller than one between supposedly "one of the best centre-halves in Europe" and a United "cast-off".

Jonny would be performing at the same level as Chris currently is in the defensive system. His departure is every much a folly from van Gaal as the transfer of Rafael, Nani and Chico. And Smalling's standing as the best defender in the club at present (he probably is to be fair) is an indictment on how far the club's stock has fallen in recent years.

Ironically it was against Newcastle towards the end of last season that Smalling and Evans put in great performances. Evans has always been underrated in here but there were a lot of clean sheets with him in the team last season and you know, the best run of clean sheets ever in the league.

homerjay2005

:eek::eek::eek::eek:

Rob Harris ‏@RobHarris 45m45 minutes ago
Just seen VanGaal to reporters on Tues:
"We don't speak anymore about Rooney. You have criticised him. I don't. You..You too.Fat man there"

Liam O

homerjay2005 wrote: »

football is a very very simple game. it does appear that LVG thinks otherwise.

Playing football is very simple, but playing simple football is the hardest thing there is.

Or so Johan Cruyff tells me

Coat22

Liam O wrote: »

Ironically it was against Newcastle towards the end of last season that Smalling and Evans put in great performances. Evans has always been underrated in here but there were a lot of clean sheets with him in the team last season and you know, the best run of clean sheets ever in the league.

Evans problem last year was his confidence. You could see it every time he got the ball he nearly sh1t himself trying to figure out what to do with it before eventually passing it back or sidewards.

Evans was obiviously not "intelligent" enough to figure out the great "philosophy" and looked like a man whose nerves were shattered.

Best thing he ever did was move away from VG.

Pro. F

castletownman wrote: »

http://www.squawka.com/comparison-matrix#premier_league/2015/2016/jonny_evans/165/165/574/48/p|premier_league/2015/2016/chris_smalling/165/165/584/0/p#defence_score/clearances/goals_scored/interceptions/tackles_won/blocks/yellow_cards#total

Looks like there is feck all difference between Smalling and Evans this season, if squawka is anything to go by. Evans is actually sixth in the entire league for interceptions with 3.3 on average per game (with N'Golo Kante leading the way with 4.1 per game). In the nine games since United defeated West Brom 2-0, Smalling has accumulated 20 FPL points as opposed to 28 from Evans.

So while stats can be used in various ways to get a point across (heck, it's a stable for anyone trying to justify/write off a potential signing, or to defend assertations that a player from a club one supports is better than a player from another one), in reality it shows that the gap between Smalling and Evans is a lot smaller than one between supposedly "one of the best centre-halves in Europe" and a United "cast-off".

Jonny would be performing at the same level as Chris currently is in the defensive system. His departure is every much a folly from van Gaal as the transfer of Rafael, Nani and Chico. And Smalling's standing as the best defender in the club at present (he probably is to be fair) is an indictment on how far the club's stock has fallen in recent years.

The stats we have available are mostly useless for judging defensive performance, because they don't record when a defender averts trouble by doing something before the opposition's chance even happens. Follow any discussion in the football stats world and you'll see that they're very open that they're still struggling to bring much insight to judging defensive players.

Evans would not be performing at the same level as Smalling in this system because Evans is weak in the air and Smalling is a monster. But I do agree that it was a mistake to let him go without a replacement.

Manutd_4life

homerjay2005 wrote: »

:eek::eek::eek::eek:

I just saw the video. Pretty funny but nothing really to freak out over.

https://twitter.com/FourFourJordan/status/687319854790086656

TheDoc

Pro. F wrote: »

You are talking about some extremely basic football tactics here. The type of thing that you can see deployed by well organised youth teams in Ireland every weekend.

That doesn't mean it wasn't a good or the correct decision, considering we have played similar away games where we have dominated possession and been sterile.

I thought it was good preparation and understanding of Newcastles current dilemma and the pressure their team does be under at home.

It will be interesting to see against Liverpool if he tries to sting them with the counter attack, or if he reverts to type.

On the flipside, I think it also showed up once again what a poor, and out of his depth manager McClaren is. While he secured a draw, that was really only down to the fortune of us missing three guilt chances, and defensively capitulating.

That they secured a draw with us, being that open and offensive, when we clearly struggle against teams that pack their third and sit deep, is incredibly fortunate for him. So easily could have been five or six one.

secman

TheDoc wrote: »

I think it's wonderfully forgetful on his, and others parts about some of the poor teams he was apart of, some poor performances, shock defeats, and titles that were lost while he was present.

The plaudits for Scholes about his genius came very late in his career, in terms of the majority acceptance. There is a reason for that. There was times and points in his career where questions were being asked, and he wasnt the midfield genius that is so widely accepted now.

I'm not trying to be contrive, but I think he would do well to remember there was questions over him for a portion of his career, that he was part of sides that lost games, played ****, lost titles etc.

The swashbuckling football that commentators and media keep repeating, wasn't built in a season, and came after years and years of Ferguson at work.

Obviously everyone looks backward with rose tinted glasses when it comes to nostalgia, or when things were better. But there are a few myths, with no basis in reality, that are adding unnecessary pressure on the team.

Scholes was a wonderful player .... couldn't tackle... but there were others for that job. ... I have followed United for 50 + years... have seen plenty of poor sides... but no rose tinted glasses about Scholes..... we don't have a current player as good as he was ...

Leroy42

I think we will see a much more defensive Utd against Liverpool. This feels like the Leicester game last season when LVG completely turned his tactics around and went ultra defensive. He has pretty much stayed that way since.

He will no doubt use the excuse that 2 points were thrown away because of the open system.

Expect a return to 70% possession and no shots.

Pro. F

TheDoc wrote: »

That doesn't mean it wasn't a good or the correct decision, considering we have played similar away games where we have dominated possession and been sterile.

No, but it does severely undermine the idea that if we had converted a few more of our chances, and Newcastle a few less of theirs, that it could have been called a tactical masterclass.

TheDoc wrote: »

It will be interesting to see against Liverpool if he tries to sting them with the counter attack, or if he reverts to type.

In the long run it won't matter which method LVG goes with, because it's abundantly clear that this stage that neither work.

TheDoc wrote: »

On the flipside, I think it also showed up once again what a poor, and out of his depth manager McClaren is. While he secured a draw, that was really only down to the fortune of us missing three guilt chances, and defensively capitulating.

That they secured a draw with us, being that open and offensive, when we clearly struggle against teams that pack their third and sit deep, is incredibly fortunate for him. So easily could have been five or six one.

It really couldn't. We missed some good chances, but we also scored some tricky ones (Lingard from wide and Rooney's rocket), and while some of Newcastle's goals were low chance shots, they also missed some good chances themselves.

homerjay2005

Manutd_4life wrote: »

I just saw the video. Pretty funny but nothing really to freak out over.

https://twitter.com/FourFourJordan/status/687319854790086656

its a bit rude in fairness and if another manager did it, we'd be slamming him.

Maximus Alexander

homerjay2005 wrote: »

its a bit rude in fairness and if another manager did it, we'd be slamming him.

Agreed, no need for it. Always said that despite the football, I like Van Gaal as a man, or at least a character. Don't take this away from me too Louis.

Hococop

homerjay2005 wrote: »

its a bit rude in fairness and if another manager did it, we'd be slamming him.

A player maybe, but its the media who let's be honest can be an absolute shower of bastards when they want to be

gosplan

castletownman wrote: »

http://www.squawka.com/comparison-matrix#premier_league/2015/2016/jonny_evans/165/165/574/48/p|premier_league/2015/2016/chris_smalling/165/165/584/0/p#defence_score/clearances/goals_scored/interceptions/tackles_won/blocks/yellow_cards#total

Looks like there is feck all difference between Smalling and Evans this season, if squawka is anything to go by. Evans is actually sixth in the entire league for interceptions with 3.3 on average per game (with N'Golo Kante leading the way with 4.1 per game). In the nine games since United defeated West Brom 2-0, Smalling has accumulated 20 FPL points as opposed to 28 from Evans.

So while stats can be used in various ways to get a point across (heck, it's a stable for anyone trying to justify/write off a potential signing, or to defend assertations that a player from a club one supports is better than a player from another one), in reality it shows that the gap between Smalling and Evans is a lot smaller than one between supposedly "one of the best centre-halves in Europe" and a United "cast-off".

Jonny would be performing at the same level as Chris currently is in the defensive system. His departure is every much a folly from van Gaal as the transfer of Rafael, Nani and Chico. And Smalling's standing as the best defender in the club at present (he probably is to be fair) is an indictment on how far the club's stock has fallen in recent years.

Except Smalling is the form defender in Europe or something.

Flint Fredstone

In before the Koscielny comments.

PhlegmyMoses

This is weird. Smalling had a genuinely class 2015. **** stats, my eyeballs told me his did well.

posturingpat

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

This is weird. Smalling had a genuinely class 2015. **** stats, my eyeballs told me his did well.

Stats have taken over sport it seems. A lot of people seem to rely on what a bunch of numbers on a sheet tell them rather than the games playing out in front of them,complete madness to me. Always trust your own judgement above any facts and figures/stats.

homerjay2005

FA Cup game against Derby moved to the Friday night.. gives us an extra night before the Stoke game i guess.

homerjay2005

Hococop wrote: »

A player maybe, but its the media who let's be honest can be an absolute shower of bastards when they want to be

doesnt matter, fans are bastards also. if he abused a fan, he probably would get banned.

beno619

TheDoc wrote: »

That doesn't mean it wasn't a good or the correct decision, considering we have played similar away games where we have dominated possession and been sterile.

I thought it was good preparation and understanding of Newcastles current dilemma and the pressure their team does be under at home.

Arguably he doesn't understand a thing about every over team in the league when you consider how many times Mata has started out wide.

Mata was most likely only dropped because he was muck at the weekend and it had nothing to do with targeting Dummett.

LVG has said multiple time he doesn't consider the opposition and beleives in the philosophy.

J. Marston

Paper's will probably go to town on poor Louis tomorrow over that comment. I enjoyed it though.

Ordinary man

homerjay2005 wrote: »

doesnt matter, fans are bastards also. if he abused a fan, he probably would get banned.

Who did he abuse? It would be the same as saying " you tall man"

RobertKK

When 2-0 up it would have been no harm to go a bit more defensive. The game reminded me of United in 2012/2013 season, very open.

RobertKK

Some people are fat but it is not PC to point out the obvious. LVG pointed out the obvious, if he had said you thin man, it would be fine, just by saying fat it is an insult.
Fat people are fat and it is too much body fat...you wouldn't need a doctor to diagnose.

Lord TSC

Watching the Pool game. If pool play like this against us, it's going to be a horrible game for us....

Kerrydude1981

RobertKK wrote: »

When 2-0 up it would have been no harm to go a bit more defensive. The game reminded me of United in 2012/2013 season, very open.

Ya thats the one time the "philosophy" should have kicked in

Be back to the default setting on Sunday.

J. Marston

Lord TSC wrote: »

Watching the Pool game. If pool play like this against us, it's going to be a horrible game for us....

Mignolet.

Be grand.

Manutd_4life

Hopefully atleast 2 teams above us playing atm slip up tonight.

I feel the top 4 is running away from us faster than most people actually realise. The table after yesterday's game gave me a right fright.

Kerrydude1981

Any chance Gary Pallister will come out of retirement for Sunday,could do with his goal scoring power