Whipping in horse racing

Mena

sup_dude wrote: »

Let me start by saying that most of the time, you're not looking at a horse being hit with a stick. You are looking at the stick being waved. Jockeys have a count down, such as 1, 2, 3, slap. A lot of the time, especially with more experienced horses, the count down doesn't even get finished.

The reason a whip is used is purely psychological. If for example, you were told to hold onto something with the same grip strength for a period of time, what you would find is that although you think you have the same grip, you will actually lessen your grip over time. Same with horses. You may think you're going up to speed but you actually start to slow. A whip is there like as a reminder to keep their pace because a jockey can't use their legs much. As above, a lot of the time, the count down doesn't finish because a horse would learn what the whip is for and would pick up their pace at the sight of it. Any jockey worth their weight will not hit a horse who responded already. It's completely counter-productive and would be detrimental to a horse's training.

There are very strict rules on whip use and race officials do not hmm or haw much over enforcing them. Even a sniff of misconduct and you're dragged up in front of them and under trial. No jockey wants to do that.

Also, a racing bat doesn't hurt. At all. They're short and broad. There's specific rules about their design too. If they don't hurt a person, they sure aren't going to hurt an animal 10 times a person's weight. They're there are a reminder.

I learned something today, thank you.

Ponies can be very malicious and nasty...

https://mobile.twitter.com/edwards_scout/status/441266461500538880

Ave Sodalis

freewheeler wrote:

haha spoken like someone with zero answers..

Answers to what questions? I'm more than happy to answer any questions you have but you haven't asked any that hasn't been answered.

freewheeler

sup_dude wrote: »

And Maguire got a ban for doing so...

What questions?

Yes and jockeys frequently get banned for overuse or incorrect use of the whip
if it wasn't hurting the horse then why ban the jockeys? we all know its just P.R..

sonic85

There's so much money involved in horse racing it'll never be banned (the whipping aspect). I just ignore it pretty much - as a sport it does nothing for me.

I've taken a few slaps of a racing whip and I've been fairly sore after it!

gctest50

Bulbous Salutation wrote: »

I'd be far more concerned for horses near halting sites than I would be for National Hunt and Flat horses.

Race horses are incredibly well treated. Owned, trained and ridden by people who genuinely love horses.

fixed that :

Race horses are incredibly well treated. Owned, trained and ridden by people who genuinely love horses money .

won't run anymore ? it gets shot

Ave Sodalis

freewheeler wrote: »

Yes and jockeys frequently get banned for overuse or incorrect use of the whip
if it wasn't hurting the horse then why ban the jockeys? we all know its just P.R..

They don't get frequently banned for overuse of a whip. All enquiries are online to be viewed by anyone.

I've already explained how it doesn't hurt. The rules are there for both P.R. and because overuse can cause a horse to over-run. A horse is never raced at full speed. Breeze-ups (not common in Ireland, more of an American thing) are the only time in a Thoroughbred's career that a horse is ran to full speed. Also, racing relies heavily on non-horse people, so yes, a lot of it is P.R.

Bulbous Salutation

gctest50 wrote: »

fixed that :



won't run anymore ? it gets shot

Gibbering nonsense.

Ave Sodalis

gctest50 wrote: »

fixed that :



won't run anymore ? it gets shot

Over-stated response which doesn't account for retirement, breeding and retraining...

padd b1975

sup_dude wrote: »

To beat implies cruelty and purposeful. The dictionary definition is to hit violently and repeatedly. So no, horses are not beat.

I do know. Something to do with a decade or so of experience with horses. Although, most of my racing experience comes from my four year BSc in Equine Science. So yes, I know.

Because your posts are coming across like the hysterical, ignorant nonsense they spout. Ignoring the facts, and twisting the truth to justify your statement.

During your decade of experience with horses, did you ever stop and think about the other methods of controlling a horse?
Namely a sharp kick to the ribs or yanking on a piece of metal in the animal's mouth.

Did you ever discuss this with your co-workers, or do you reserve your populist outrage for Internet discussion boards?

Ave Sodalis

padd b1975 wrote: »

During your decade of experience with horses, did you ever stop and think about the other methods of controlling a horse?
Namely a sharp kick to the ribs or yanking on a piece of metal in the animal's mouth.

Did you ever discuss this with your co-workers, or do you reserve your populist outrage for Internet discussion boards?

Frequently, often and indepth.

gctest50

Bulbous Salutation wrote: »

Gibbering nonsense.

what happens them then ? out to grass ? kept as a pet ?

hardly.

tomorrows cat food

Ave Sodalis

gctest50 wrote: »

what happens them then ? out to grass ? kept as a pet ?

hardly.

tomorrows cat food

Retirement, breeding and retraining. There's an entire section in the RDS (Ireland's biggest horse show) dedicated to a Racehorse to Riding Horse class.

padd b1975

sup_dude wrote: »

Frequently, often and indepth.

Ever come up with any alternatives?

freewheeler

sup_dude wrote: »

They don't get frequently banned for overuse of a whip. All enquiries are online to be viewed by anyone.

I've already explained how it doesn't hurt. The rules are there for both P.R. and because overuse can cause a horse to over-run. A horse is never raced at full speed. Breeze-ups (not common in Ireland, more of an American thing) are the only time in a Thoroughbred's career that a horse is ran to full speed. Also, racing relies heavily on non-horse people, so yes, a lot of it is P.R.

they don't frequently get banned for incorrect whip use?? what planet are you on?? both paddy brennan & ruby walsh banned for whipping in the biggest NH race of the season so far...just yesterday?? Oh my bad...that must have been a once off...:rolleyes:

Ave Sodalis

padd b1975 wrote: »

Ever come up with any alternatives?

You see this isn't a simple answer. Horses are not similar to each other at all. Every single one are different to each other. The scale of different types of tack and methods of riding takes years to learn. So yes, there are more alternatives that you can possibly think of, and yes, they are being applied.

Ave Sodalis

freewheeler wrote: »

they don't frequently get banned for incorrect whip use?? what planet are you on?? both paddy brennan & ruby walsh banned for whipping in the biggest NH race of the season so far...just yesterday?? Oh my bad...that must have been a once off...:rolleyes:

What are you even talking about? Seriously, what's with the hysterics? You're just further demonstrating your ignorance.

Robsweezie

We must create a safe space for them.

padd b1975

sup_dude wrote: »

You see this isn't a simple answer. Horses are not similar to each other at all. Every single one are different to each other. The scale of different types of tack and methods of riding takes years to learn. So yes, there are more alternatives that you can possibly think of, and yes, they are being applied.

The principles are the pretty much the same, are they not?
Just subtle variations of the bit and bridle.

Ave Sodalis

padd b1975 wrote: »

The principles are the pretty much the same, are they not?
Just subtle variations of the bit and bridle.

Not all, no. There's bitless, there's bridleless, there's tackless. There's variation within them. All suit different horses.

In fairness though, if you're going to assume straight away that tack involves the "sharp kick to the ribs or yanking on a piece of metal in the animal's mouth" then I'm not sure this isn't just a loaded question, and you're just going to find a problem with whatever I type.

freewheeler

sup_dude wrote: »

What are you even talking about? Seriously, what's with the hysterics? You're just further demonstrating your ignorance.

as usual now you are just dodging the question...what am i talking about? just read my post..its not that difficult for such an educated person as yourself now is it? So any answers then or if not then just do us all a favour and quit.

Ave Sodalis

freewheeler wrote: »

as usual now you are just dodging the question...what am i talking about? just read my post..its not that difficult for such an educated person as yourself now is it?

You still haven't told me what questions I'm avoiding? I haven't avoided any questions. As I said the last time you accused me of this, point them out and I will answer them.

Why are you mocking my education when it was you who asked how I would know anything about horses and whips?

mickstupp

sup_dude wrote: »

Jockeys don't whip horses to make them run.

So........... why do it?

Or is that just a really literal sort of answer, as in... they're already running so they don't hit them to run. They just hit them to run faster.

Reading this thread, I used to think it was vaguely cruel in some way, never really approved. But now, having read the attempted justifications and excuses, I'm convinced it's cruel. Your responses make you out in a pretty bad light to me.

Ave Sodalis

mickstupp wrote: »

So........... why do it?

Or is that just a really literal sort of answer, as in... they're already running so they don't hit them to run. They just hit them to run faster.

Reading this thread, I used to think it was vaguely cruel in some way, never really approved. But now, having read the attempted justifications and excuses, I'm convinced it's cruel. Your responses make you out in a pretty bad light to me.

I've answered this in my first post on the first page.

bigroad

A horse can feel a fly bite it ,so yes it does feel the whip and it reacts.
A lot of money involved in horse racing ,so use of the whip is a means to an end and that's to win.
When a race horse is no good for racing anymore a lot of them get sold on to the meat factory for a small sum .
This meat is then transported into France,Italy ,ect.
When the recession hit most people couldn't afford to keep x race horses as pets so they went for the chop.
The lucky ones are retrained but only if the owner can afford it or can see a reason in keeping the horse on.

freewheeler

sup_dude wrote: »

You still haven't told me what questions I'm avoiding? I haven't avoided any questions. As I said the last time you accused me of this, point them out and I will answer them.

Why are you mocking my education when it was you who asked how I would know anything about horses and whips?[/QUOT

as i said read my last post re: jockeys getting banned (or not as you state) for improper use of the whip..it actually does happen...really! maybe read the racing post or something...you'll see it there does actually happen quite frequently..

Fleawuss

blade1 wrote: »

Where is the veil?
It clearly says whipping in the title.

Indeed. Proceed to the next words...

freewheeler

bigroad wrote: »

A horse can feel a fly bite it ,so yes it does feel the whip and it reacts.
A lot of money involved in horse racing ,so use of the whip is a means to an end and that's to win.
When a race horse is no good for racing anymore a lot of them get sold on to the meat factory for a small sum .
This meat is then transported into France,Italy ,ect.
When the recession hit most people couldn't afford to keep x race horses as pets so they went for the chop.
The lucky ones are retrained but only if the owner can afford it or can see a reason in keeping the horse on.

someone telling it like it is....at last...

Ave Sodalis

freewheeler wrote: »

as i said read my last post re: jockeys getting banned (or not as you state) for improper use of the whip..it actually does happen...really! maybe read the racing news or something...you'll see it there does actually happen quite frequently..

Maybe read my posts and you'll see that I have stated numerous times they get banned. Don't try and twist what I said when it's stated so plainly.

Maybe read the Turf Club website or something.... you'll see a list and details of every enquirey

freewheeler

sup_dude wrote: »

Retirement, breeding and retraining. There's an entire section in the RDS (Ireland's biggest horse show) dedicated to a Racehorse to Riding Horse class.

What percentage of retired racehorses end up here i wonder...

Richard Hillman

It is more to do with the crack/noise of the whip that gets the horse going rather than the force.

Flat horses are treated very well but I would be more worried about horses that are forced to run 3-4 mile races over stupid artificial fences.

freewheeler

sup_dude wrote: »

Maybe read my posts and you'll see that I have stated numerous times they get banned. Don't try and twist what I said when it's stated so plainly.

Maybe read the Turf Club website or something.... you'll see a list and details of every enquirey

you said they don't FREQUENTLY get banned...THEY DO...you're lying.

Ave Sodalis

freewheeler wrote:

What percentage of retired racehorses end up here i wonder...

And ignore the retrained and bred horses?

Richard Hillman wrote:

Flat horses are treated very well but I would be more worried about horses that are forced to run 3-4 mile races over stupid artificial fences.

They aren't forced...

mickstupp

sup_dude wrote: »

I've answered this in my first post on the first page.

Ok... so the bit I think you're referring to is where you say this:

sup_dude wrote: »

... a horse would learn what the whip is for and would pick up their pace at the sight of it.

But then you later said 'Jockeys don't whip horses to make them run.'

So if the whip isn't to make them run, but is instead... to make them run...

Ave Sodalis

freewheeler wrote:

you said they don't FREQUENTLY get banned...THEY DO...you're lying.

And you said I said they don't get banned. Go read the Turf Club website. Quit twisting what I said to suit you.

freewheeler

sup_dude wrote: »

And ignore the retrained and bred horses?



They aren't forced...

All i was looking for was the figures you're the one that brought it up?
and even YOU would surely accept that a large percentage of retired horses end up in the pet food industry..

Ave Sodalis

mickstupp wrote:

But then you later said 'Jockeys don't whip horses to make them run.'

A whip will not, under any circumstances, make a horse run a race well. A whip will get a horse to keep pace. Read the grip example.

mickstupp

Ok.
They don't get whipped to run.
They don't get whipped to run faster.
They get whipped to make them keep up the same pace they're already running at?

Ave Sodalis

freewheeler wrote:

All i was looking for was the figures you're the one that brought it up?

You asked for distorted figures... anything to justify the hysterics. Look at the Turf Club website

freewheeler

sup_dude wrote: »

And you said I said they don't get banned. Go read the Turf Club website. Quit twisting what I said to suit you.

If you'd care to read my post AGAIN you'd see that you said it doesn't happen frequently...where it quite obviously does...and i don't see any twisting taking place

freewheeler

mickstupp wrote: »

Ok... so the bit I think you're referring to is where you say this:

But then you later said 'Jockeys don't whip horses to make them run.'

So if the whip isn't to make them run, but is instead... to make them run...

LOL i've been here earlier mickstupp...and am still none the wiser..there seems to be a lot of inconsistencies in this whipping defence!

gctest50

gctest50 wrote: »

what happens them then ? out to grass ? kept as a pet ?

hardly.

tomorrows cat food

That doesn't bother me.

It's tomorrow's burgers that worries me more!

bigroad

Deleted User wrote: »

That doesn't bother me.

It's tomorrow's burgers that worries me more!

Mr Goodman might have some info on that.

padd b1975

sup_dude wrote: »

Not all, no. There's bitless, there's bridleless, there's tackless. There's variation within them. All suit different horses.

In fairness though, if you're going to assume straight away that tack involves the "sharp kick to the ribs or yanking on a piece of metal in the animal's mouth" then I'm not sure this isn't just a loaded question, and you're just going to find a problem with whatever I type.

No, no, not having a go at you at all.

On a scale of the mis-treatment of horses, I would put the use of a specially designed whip in a strictly controlled environment well near the bottom.

Kovu

I am definitely going to regret posting in this thread :pac:

The horses aren't forced to race, if a horse refuses to race he doesn't go and there's no way you can force him. Look at Mad Moose for a perfect example.
A lot of the whip waving is just that, waving to remind the horse that the whip is there and to get his attention back on the race. As sup_dude says above there are very strict rules about whip usage like raising the whip above shoulder height. You can read them here and the penalties that will occur. http://www.thepja.co.uk/members-info/regulatory/useofwhip/

Ave Sodalis

mickstupp wrote:

Ok. They don't get whipped to run. They don't get whipped to run faster. They get whipped to make them keep up the same pace they're already running at?

Yes. Horses have a boost button (not an actual button, in case that gets picked up wrong).

freewheeler wrote:

If you'd care to read my post AGAIN you'd see that you said it doesn't happen frequently...where it quite obviously does...and i don't see any twisting taking place

Read the Turf Club website. How many times do I have to say it?

padd b1975 wrote:

On a scale of the mis-treatment of horses, I would put the use of a specially designed whip in a strictly controlled environment well near the bottom.

Sorry, I was still in the mindset of replying to freewheeler! There is far worse, and it's usually down to ignorance.

petes

Love the threads on AH on horse racing, loads of people with not a notion of what they are talking about bar a few and others who haven't learned to understand sentences!

paul71

gctest50 wrote: »

what happens them then ? out to grass ? kept as a pet ?

hardly.

tomorrows cat food

FFS there are in excess of 400 stud farms in Ireland, pratically every retired racehorse is sent to stud, the remainder become sports horses. In 40 years living and working on stud farms I have never heard of a single horse being shot after retirement, educate yourself before spouing nonsense.

mynamejeff

Aw Boards !

this tread is so typical of almost every other thread on here.

A whole tribe of idiots who have no idea what they are talking about yet feel entitled to voice an opinion nun the less.

Horses hide is made of leather
Racing whips are very light and specifically designed to not cause injury

Ave Sodalis

paul71 wrote: »

FFS there are in excess of 400 stud farms in Ireland, partically every retired racehorse is sent to stud, the remainder become sports horses. In 40 years living and working on stud farms I have never heard of a single horse being shot after retirement, educate yourself before spouing nonsense.

Pfft, experience! As if that's going to stand in the way of a good outrage rant! I'm entitled to my outrage and it doesn't matter if anyone who knows better is telling me otherwise!!!






























:P