Whipping in horse racing

Ave Sodalis

taytobreath wrote: »

its cruel and you know its cruel. get off the fence and see that

It's not and I know it's not. You want to know how I know? Because unlike you, I know an awful lot about horses. You, on the other hand, haven't the foggiest yet seem to think you do.

taytobreath

sup_dude wrote: »

No, they don't. If you have a vague understanding of herd dynamic, you know they don't. See a post previous to this I had for when someone would inevitably bring this up.

Are you telling me that if a riderless horse sees a fence that the horse is going to jump that fence because the horse loves to jump fences.

Clique

These horse's are bred to do this, it's that simple. They are bred to be jumpers some do change over after a failed attempt at a flat career. As a keen watcher of racing I find it quite irritating to see so many people shoot down people that know what they are talking about, then talk down on them and come up with absurd false statements.

Whips are fully regulated, it's always been an issue but drastically over the years it has been improved. Im sure a horse does feel it but not to the extent of it hurting them. If they are marked then the jockey will be duly punished. Someone brought up Ballabrigs, a race 4yrs ago, seriously an event 4yrs ago with thousands upon thousands of other races taking place over that time and this is the one event you go back to. Maguire was punished and in fact that race with the bad publicity did in fact bring in new legislation.

40 mile an hour horses dont go over the jumps and in fact it would be a very rare occurence of even a flat thoroughbred doing anything near that pace. The lower the fences then the more speed they go therefore increasing the risk of injuries. The stride pattern of an average horse is around 6/7 meters so taking them jumps is relatively normal for them. Not all horses go chasing either in NH.

As I say I'm no expert but do know a few little details and can see if it was 'cruel' and as bad as some people think it simply wouldnt exist as a sport

Ave Sodalis

taytobreath wrote: »

Are you telling me that if a riderless horse sees a fence that the horse is going to jump that fence because the horse loves to jump fences.

Some do, yes. Like has been explained, every horse is different

taytobreath

sup_dude wrote: »

It's not and I know it's not. You want to know how I know? Because unlike you, I know an awful lot about horses. You, on the other hand, haven't the foggiest yet seem to think you do.

And you are biased too, there's know harm in defending something your part of, but it doenst make it right either.

Ave Sodalis

taytobreath wrote: »

And you are biased too, there's know harm in defending something your part of, but it doenst make it right either.

I've spent 4 years training to be as objective as possible when it comes to horses. You have to in science, so the whole "you're biased" isn't gonna cut it. That's like telling a biochemist that collegen is pointless, and they're wrong because of their bias as a biochemist...

byhookorbycrook

Still waiting for you to come here and "force" the cob to jump 1 . 20. I'll listen to you then.

taytobreath

I try to use my critical thinking skills too, but aren't we all entitled to our opinion.
So ill reiterate that racing horses over high fences at high speeds is cruel. Most people will jump to its defense because its a part of our culture, it features daily on the rte news including the horrific falls. In fact it just featured on tonights 9pm news. A horse falling over a fence at high speed on to its neck

taytobreath

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Still waiting for you to come here and "force" the cob to jump 1 . 20. I'll listen to you then.

where exactly are you going with this, i dont care what your horse can and wont do,
are you telling me that you think national hunt racing isnt cruel on a horse.
this is the point im trying to make, i dont need the thinly veiled i own a horse rubbish

Ave Sodalis

taytobreath wrote:

I try to use my critical thinking skills too, but aren't we all entitled to our opinion. So ill reiterate that racing horses over high fences at high speeds is cruel. Most people will jump to its defense because its a part of our culture, it features daily on the rte news including the horrific falls. In fact it just featured on tonights 9pm news. A horse falling over a fence at high speed on to its neck

Not when that opinion has be debunked by people who know anything about it.
Where did I, or anyone else mention culture? Do you have any idea how many races are run a day? Horses will not jump or run if they didn't want to. No amount of telling me otherwise is going to change this.

Ave Sodalis

taytobreath wrote:

where exactly are you going with this, i dont care what your horse can and wont do, are you telling me that you think national hunt racing isnt cruel on a horse. this is the point im trying to make, i dont need the thinly veiled i own a horse rubbish

It's not about owning a horse. She's saying you can't make a horse do what it doesn't want to do. If you think otherwise, you are welcome to try.

byhookorbycrook

taytobreath wrote: »

where exactly are you going with this, i dont care what your horse can and wont do,
are you telling me that you think national hunt racing isnt cruel on a horse.
this is the point im trying to make, i dont need the thinly veiled i own a horse rubbish

Your "argument"is that you can frighten a horse into doing something it doesn't want to. I once more reiterate that you can't. I can prove it, you can't.

Corpus Twisty

I used to do a lot of show-jumping as a young-fella. I was quite useful at it as it happens. I fecked away the whip as soon as I got beyond being a novice and generally considered those who used one as being a bit naff at what they were doing. I'm not entirely convinced I'd have much of a different view of a flat or jump jockey who overly rely on one either and yes, I know a fair few. And the whole "but it doesn't hurt" is sh1te. C'mere and I give you a decent lick of one. See how much you like it. And pushing a horse over the likes of Beechers Brook when it's half-knackered from the distance, is pure cnutery imo.

Riverireland

sup_dude wrote: »

Not when that opinion has be debunked by people who know anything about it.
Where did I, or anyone else mention culture? Do you have any idea how many races are run a day? Horses will not jump or run if they didn't want to. No amount of telling me otherwise is going to change this.

A horse put on a race track without a rider will graze. I own horses too sup dude. Enjoy your horses but at least be honest, they won't behave the same way way without a jockey on their backs.

Ave Sodalis

Corpus Twisty wrote:

I used to do a lot of show-jumping as a young-fella. I was quite useful at it as it happens. I fecked away the whip as soon as I got beyond being a novice and generally considered those who used one as being a bit naff at what they were doing. I'm not entirely convinced I'd have much of a different view of a flat or jump jockey who overly rely on one either and yes, I know a fair few. And the whole "but it doesn't hurt" is sh1te. C'mere and I give you a decent lick of one. See how much you like it.

Whips, when used properly, are a highly useful aid. They're there in other disciplines to reinforce the leg. I nearly always carry one, unless the horse/pony is loopy that day.

Racing bats don't hurt. I have been hit by one several times in childish play. Schooling whips hurt but you don't use schooling whips in the same way.

Honestly, if we're going to get into cruelty, we may discuss rolkur instead of whips.

Gandalph

Had my own horse for years, whipped and kicked it senseless and sometimes wouldn't even budge if it didn't feel like doing so. Gave it away when I lost the time to look after it.

Came to visit him 8 years down the line and he was absolutely hysterical with excitement to see me...my dog wouldn't have given me a warmer greeting.

Is whipping cruel? Not one bit.

A horse is far too powerful to be in complete submission to a human, if it really didn't want someone to be on its back then well, that person wouldn't be in the saddle very long.

Ave Sodalis

Riverireland wrote:

A horse put on a race track without a rider will graze. I own horses too sup dude. Enjoy your horses but at least be honest, they won't behave the same way way without a jockey on their backs.

Some will, some won't. You cannot paint every horse with the same brush. I had a pony who would jump in the arena if there was one there when she was left to roll. I've rode another pony who would rather walk around a twig on the ground than lift its legs half an inch higher.

taytobreath

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Your "argument"is that you can frighten a horse into doing something it doesn't want to. I once more reiterate that you can't. I can prove it, you can't.

So horses travelling over becher's brook are doing it because they want to do it?
It doesn't matter if they are been frightened to do it or been trained to do it or doing it because a jockey is on top of it whipping it over the fence, its cruel because its unnatural and they are not physically designed to be jumping fences at those speeds and those heights.

Odelay

taytobreath wrote: »

where exactly are you going with this, i dont care what your horse can and wont do,
are you telling me that you think national hunt racing isnt cruel on a horse.
this is the point im trying to make, i dont need the thinly veiled i own a horse rubbish

I took my mare on a hack on the road, she was slow and not that interested (not going forward is the term but I wouldn't expect you to know that), however when i turned her into a laneway where she could see the cross country fences she immediately picked up her pace, tail up and ears pointed. Are you telling me she wasn't looking forward to juming them??

Ave Sodalis

taytobreath wrote:

So horses travelling over becher's brook are doing it because they want to do it? It doesn't matter if they are been frightened to do it or been trained to do it or doing it because a jockey is on top of it whipping it over the fence, its cruel because its unnatural and they are not physically designed to be jumping fences at those speeds and those heights.

Lets not get into what they are and are not designed to do Tayto, you'll be completely out of your depth...

Riverireland

sup_dude wrote: »

Some will, some won't. You cannot paint every horse with the same brush. I had a pony who would jump in the arena if there was one there when she was left to roll. I've rode another pony who would rather walk around a twig on the ground than lift its legs half an inch higher.

Ok, put 10 horses tacked up in a jumping arena or a race track and see which will graze. I can guarantee you none will do clear rounds or win races, none will care. They don't enjoy it, the riders do.

Ave Sodalis

Riverireland wrote: »

Ok, put 10 horses tacked up in a jumping arena or a race track and see which will graze. I can guarantee you none will do clear rounds or win races, none will care. They don't enjoy it, the riders do.

Have you ever seen the blood samples of a horse post race?

Despite owning horses, can you really not tell the difference between a horse who loves what it's doing and a horse that doesn't want to be there? Or have you just never sat on a horse who really wants to jump?

Corpus Twisty

Gandalph wrote: »

Had my own horse for years, whipped and kicked it senseless and sometimes wouldn't even budge if it didn't feel like doing so. Gave it away when I lost the time to look after it.

Came to visit him 8 years down the line and he was absolutely hysterical with excitement to see me...my dog wouldn't have given me a warmer greeting.

Is whipping cruel? Not one bit.

A horse is far too powerful to be in complete submission to a human, if it really didn't want someone to be on its back then well, that person wouldn't be in the saddle very long.

Mainly as you weren't much good with horses. A person who is skilled with a horse will get the best out of even the wildest/laziest nag. It isn't simply a matter of hopping into the saddle and kicking wildly. I can't even remember ever kicking a horse, again, after I moved beyond being a novice. I used to ride dressage as well as ocer the jumps, which is a highly demanding discipline with a lot expected off both horse and rider - when you gain a bit of skill, you realise just how naff your average rider is.

Booting away like a river-dancer, whip flying, and the horse doing whatever it does or doesn't want to do. I generally got to hop onto peoples €100 or €200k horses and put them through their paces. If I'd been kicking and whipping, I'd have got the gate so fast my head would have spun, and rightly so. I went off horse-riding tbh, because a decent horse was just so far beyond my means and riding other peoples for wages isn't the same thing. But I still thought and think people who use a whip on a horse were/are gowls.

bigroad

If there is no pain there is no gain.
The whip is used for control.
If no jockey had a whip ,what difference would it make.
Its all about control ,winning and money.
How many people have we sleeping on the streets of Ireland tonight ,yet the minister gave millions to the horse racing industry last budget.
Most racehorse owners are rich,they congratulate the horse and jockey when they win and win them money,
Do they congratulate them when they don't win.

Ave Sodalis

Corpus Twisty wrote: »

Mainly as you weren't much good with horses. A person who is skilled with a horse will get the best out of even the wildest/laziest nag. It isn't simply a matter of hopping into the saddle and kicking wildly. I can't even remember ever kicking a horse, again, after I moved beyond being a novice. I used to ride dressage as well as ocer the jumps, which is a highly demanding discipline with a lot expected off both horse and rider - when you gain a bit of skill, you realise just how naff your average rider is.

Booting away like a river-dancer, whip flying, and the horse doing whatever it does or doesn't want to do. I generally got to hop onto peoples €100 or €200k horses and put them through their paces. If I'd been kicking and whipping, I'd have got the gate so fast my head would have spun, and rightly so. I went off horse-riding tbh, because a decent horse was just so far beyond my means and riding other peoples for wages isn't the same thing. But I still thought and think people who use a whip on a horse were/are gowls.

Nobody is advocating beating the horse with a whip, or kicking the bayjaysus out of it to make it move. In fact, people are saying the beating a horse isn't going to make a horse move if it doesn't want to do so. That isn't the job of a whip.

taytobreath

I know certain horses like been hacked around, or even fox hunting because it does excite the horse because it is with other horses and they do enjoy running with each other because they are a herd animal, whether its with or without a rider.

Its the racing over the fences at unnatural speeds and at unnatural heights i do not agree with

byhookorbycrook

bigroad wrote: »

If there is no pain there is no gain.
The whip is used for control.
If no jockey had a whip ,what difference would it make.
Its all about control ,winning and money.
How many people have we sleeping on the streets of Ireland tonight ,yet the minister gave millions to the horse racing industry last budget.
Most racehorse owners are rich,they congratulate the horse and jockey when they win and win them money,
Do they congratulate them when they don't win.

To use the teenage slang rotflmao. Explain point to pointing, riding club, pony club and eventing, so.

Ave Sodalis

taytobreath wrote: »

Its the racing over the fences at unnatural speeds and at unnatural heights i do not agree with

How is it unnatural?

Gandalph

Corpus Twisty wrote: »

Mainly as you weren't much good with horses.

I was like 10, obviously didn't start off with a booming knowledge of the animal or how it was done unfortunately. The horse knew I was in-experienced and took full advantage of it.

Starokan

taytobreath wrote: »

So horses travelling over becher's brook are doing it because they want to do it?
It doesn't matter if they are been frightened to do it or been trained to do it or doing it because a jockey is on top of it whipping it over the fence, its cruel because its unnatural and they are not physically designed to be jumping fences at those speeds and those heights.

I would have to disagree with the last part of this post, national hunt horses are uniquely designed to be jumping fences at speed and height. Its what they are bred for.

I love horse racing as a sport, I follow it religiously to be honest , I have worked briefly in the racing world and the horses are unbelievably well looked after. The staff in stables form bonds with them that last lifetimes, any animal rights campaigner should visit any stables anywhere and they will see this.

Its the same across the equine industry - it is a business however and like many industries it has its murky sides - the abandonment of horses by owners & trainers , the putting down of animals that could be saved but the reason to save is not there if they cannot race. I would imagine the same thing occurred when horses where working animals on farms - if they were injured they were only saved if they could work.

Unless you follow racing or work in it you will never understand the mindset of the people involved, people who follow racing love horses and from all I have met they love animals in general. I know that is hard for someone outside the equine world to see and to be honest I can see how it is so - you see animals being made race and it doesn't sit well with you.

I think people could post all day and no agreement would ever be reached by those on opposing sides.

To go back on topics do whips hurt - yes of course they do - getting struck by anything hurts - to suggest otherwise is misleading. There are however very strict rules applied to the use of the whip and for the majority of races these rules are adhered too, In a big race however any jockey will use the whip to excess in order to win and anyone in racing knows this. Personally I would like to see the whip removed, I know it has been mooted by the odd jockey and trainer , realistically it will not happen in my lifetime I would imagine but I think in the future it will happen

Riverireland

sup_dude wrote: »

Have you ever seen the blood samples of a horse post race?

Despite owning horses, can you really not tell the difference between a horse who loves what it's doing and a horse that doesn't want to be there? Or have you just never sat on a horse who really wants to jump?

Yes I've done all that. The bit that gets me is when people say the horse enjoys it. People enjoy it, simple as. The horse would be happy to just graze. Just be honest about it.

taytobreath

sup_dude wrote: »

Lets not get into what they are and are not designed to do Tayto, you'll be completely out of your depth...

Do you think they are designed to go over bechers brook at that speed?

Ave Sodalis

Riverireland wrote: »

Yes I've done all that. The bit that gets me is when people say the horse enjoys it. People enjoy it, simple as. The horse would be happy to just graze. Just be honest about it.

You do realise you're contradicting yourself. How can you say you've sat on a horse that loves to jump and then say they don't love to jump?

Riverireland

Starokan wrote: »

I would have to disagree with the last part of this post, national hunt horses are uniquely designed to be jumping fences at speed and height. Its what they are bred for.

I love horse racing as a sport, I follow it religiously to be honest , I have worked briefly in the racing world and the horses are unbelievably well looked after. The staff in stables form bonds with them that last lifetimes, any animal rights campaigner should visit any stables anywhere and they will see this.

Its the same across the equine industry - it is a business however and like many industries it has its murky sides - the abandonment of horses by owners & trainers , the putting down of animals that could be saved but the reason to save is not there if they cannot race. I would imagine the same thing occurred when horses where working animals on farms - if they were injured they were only saved if they could work.

Unless you follow racing or work in it you will never understand the mindset of the people involved, people who follow racing love horses and from all I have met they love animals in general. I know that is hard for someone outside the equine world to see and to be honest I can see how it is so - you see animals being made race and it doesn't sit well with you.

I think people could post all day and no agreement would ever be reached by those on opposing sides.

To go back on topics do whips hurt - yes of course they do - getting struck by anything hurts - to suggest otherwise is misleading. There are however very strict rules applied to the use of the whip and for the majority of races these rules are adhered too, In a big race however any jockey will use the whip to excess in order to win and anyone in racing knows this. Personally I would like to see the whip removed, I know it has been mooted by the odd jockey and trainer , realistically it will not happen in my lifetime I would imagine but I think in the future it will happen

What happens to these horses when they don't win races? I know the answer but can you just clarify for those who dont?

Ave Sodalis

taytobreath wrote: »

Do you think they are designed to go over bechers brook at that speed?

Do you have the faintest knowledge of equine physiology?

byhookorbycrook

taytobreath wrote: »

I know certain horses like been hacked around, or even fox hunting because it does excite the horse because it is with other horses and they do enjoy running with each other because they are a herd animal, whether its with or without a rider.

Its the racing over the fences at unnatural speeds and at unnatural heights i do not agree with[/QUOTE]
So you know nothing about hunting either then, please quit while you have some tiny bit of dignity left.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Riverireland

sup_dude wrote: »

You do realise you're contradicting yourself. How can you say you've sat on a horse that loves to jump and then say they don't love to jump?

They are trained to jump. Are you saying you can put a horse, riderless, in an arena and it will volunteer to do the course itself?

Kevhog1988

Riverireland wrote: »

What happens to these horses when they don't win races? I know the answer but can you just clarify for those who dont?

ive retrained a few for showjumping. hunting etc.

bigroad

Gandalph wrote: »

Had my own horse for years, whipped and kicked it senseless and sometimes wouldn't even budge if it didn't feel like doing so. Gave it away when I lost the time to look after it.

Came to visit him 8 years down the line and he was absolutely hysterical with excitement to see me...my dog wouldn't have given me a warmer greeting.

Is whipping cruel? Not one bit.

A horse is far too powerful to be in complete submission to a human, if it really didn't want someone to be on its back then well, that person wouldn't be in the saddle very long.

If I whipped and kicked you senseless would you budge.
And 8 years later I came to visit you would you be hysterical with excitement.
I say you would be well happy.

taytobreath

Starokan wrote: »

I would have to disagree with the last part of this post, national hunt horses are uniquely designed to be jumping fences at speed and height. Its what they are bred for.

I love horse racing as a sport, I follow it religiously to be honest , I have worked briefly in the racing world and the horses are unbelievably well looked after. The staff in stables form bonds with them that last lifetimes, any animal rights campaigner should visit any stables anywhere and they will see this.

Its the same across the equine industry - it is a business however and like many industries it has its murky sides - the abandonment of horses by owners & trainers , the putting down of animals that could be saved but the reason to save is not there if they cannot race. I would imagine the same thing occurred when horses where working animals on farms - if they were injured they were only saved if they could work.

Unless you follow racing or work in it you will never understand the mindset of the people involved, people who follow racing love horses and from all I have met they love animals in general. I know that is hard for someone outside the equine world to see and to be honest I can see how it is so - you see animals being made race and it doesn't sit well with you.

I think people could post all day and no agreement would ever be reached by those on opposing sides.

To go back on topics do whips hurt - yes of course they do - getting struck by anything hurts - to suggest otherwise is misleading. There are however very strict rules applied to the use of the whip and for the majority of races these rules are adhered too, In a big race however any jockey will use the whip to excess in order to win and anyone in racing knows this. Personally I would like to see the whip removed, I know it has been mooted by the odd jockey and trainer , realistically it will not happen in my lifetime I would imagine but I think in the future it will happen

Good post
Thoroughbreds are more suited to speed, as they are a thin light animal which would surely make this type of horse more vulnerable to jumping high fences at high speeds.

Riverireland

sup_dude wrote: »

Do you have the faintest knowledge of equine physiology?

Do you, except from your own biased point of view. You can probably ride, big deal.

Ave Sodalis

Riverireland wrote: »

They are trained to jump. Are you saying you can put a horse, riderless, in an arena and it will volunteer to do the course itself?

Haven't I already said repeatedly that every horse is different? Haven't I also said that I personally rode a horse who would jump any jumps in an arena she was put into to roll? Haven't I also already stated that I currently have a problem with a horse who won't stop jumping things he's not meant to?

taytobreath

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

taytobreath wrote: »

I know certain horses like been hacked around, or even fox hunting because it does excite the horse because it is with other horses and they do enjoy running with each other because they are a herd animal, whether its with or without a rider.

Its the racing over the fences at unnatural speeds and at unnatural heights i do not agree with[/QUOTE]
So you know nothing about hunting either then, please quit while you have some tiny bit of dignity left.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

how did you come to that conclusion?

Riverireland

theemigrant wrote: »

ive retrained a few for showjumping. hunting etc.

A few yes, the rest of them?

Ave Sodalis

Riverireland wrote: »

Do you, except from your own biased point of view. You can probably ride, big deal.

I have a 4 year BSc in Equine Science. This includes multiple physiology modules. So yes.

Ave Sodalis

Riverireland wrote: »

A few yes, the rest of them?

You're looking for one answer so you can jump on it and go "ha! see I told you so" but to do so would be to ignore every other possible answer.

bigroad

sup_dude wrote: »

I have a 4 year BSc in Equine Science. This includes multiple physiology modules. So yes.

That's amazing.Well done.

taytobreath

sup_dude wrote: »

Do you have the faintest knowledge of equine physiology?

Enough knowledge to know that its cruel to do that to a horse.

Ave Sodalis

taytobreath wrote: »

Enough knowledge to know that its cruel to do that to a horse.

So none then.

taytobreath

sup_dude wrote: »

I have a 4 year BSc in Equine Science. This includes multiple physiology modules. So yes.

Well then you must know that a horses body is not designed to race over fences at high speeds. Justify all the falls they endure.