Whipping in horse racing

Riverireland

sup_dude wrote: »

There are been millions of horses who have ran a race in the last 8 years. Again, it's all about context.

That could, or it might not. You don't know that and I would rather you didn't make up stats that you have no proof for.

I'm sure you can ask the Dept of Ag, or the Dept of Sports.



A several million euro horse can still be worth an awful lot injured. Do you know why horses are put down when they break their leg? (I'll give you a clue, it's not all about money).

You see, I can and have admitted there are problems that need to be addressed. I think you're just blinded by your ignorance and your need to find a problem. I hate admitting my age because it automatically goes to "oh you're just too young to understand", completely ignoring any points I make. It's just sticking your head into the sand.

Ok explain to me how the several million horse can be worth the same injured unless for breeding? Your age, lack of experience, whatever, is apparent without seeing you. Wisdom and age are not mutually exclusive I must certainly am not agest.

Discodog

Mavis Faithful Cloverleaf wrote: »

20% levy you must be having a laugh.

Race horses are treated like kings, better than a lot of people.

So what if some are slaughtered when its uneconomic to keep them, once they are treated well while alive and slaughtered humanely I see no problem.

This horrible nonsense that racing is "cruel" makes those saying it look very silly.

So you want to enjoy your "sport" but you are unwilling to contribute a small amount to help repair the damage that your support causes.

So you think that the 1332 horses that died at tracks, often in agony, are treated like kings ?

Ave Sodalis

Discodog wrote: »

If you are involved in horse or greyhound racing you are complicit in the abuse of animals.

You have to "stand for it" if you choose to post on a public forum. I am not stating facts & backing them up with published evidence.

I suggest that you calm down & actually read the evidence instead of ignoring it because it doesn't suit your agenda.

Your post is full of hypocrisy... Honestly, this is the problem with animal rights activists. I have full respect for those actually trying to help and I pity them. Not only do they have to put up with animal abuse, but they have to contend with hysterical nonsense like this that ridicules their case and makes it difficult to take actual abuse cases seriously.

Ave Sodalis

Riverireland wrote: »

Ok explain to me how the several million horse can be worth the same injured unless for breeding? Your age, lack of experience, whatever, is apparent without seeing you. Wisdom and age are not mutually exclusive I must certainly am not agest.

Breeding is exactly how. And recovery. Horses don't get injuried and they go "oh well, time to put them down so". I'm actually struggling to believe that you ever owned a horse to be honest.

Where is my lack of experience apparent? Who is the one talking from experience here, and who is the one merely spouting an uneducated opinion?

Discodog wrote: »

So you want to enjoy your "sport" but you are unwilling to contribute a small amount to help repair the damage that your support causes.

So you think that the 1332 horses that died at tracks, often in agony, are treated like kings ?

Honestly Nox, Discodog has got an agenda and no amount of replying is going to change it.

Riverireland

mulbot wrote: »

No it doesn't at all-the reply you gave was after the foal was born and in the racing game- My question was about how would it make sense to put a horse in foal,then abort the foal so one wouldn't have to pay the stallion fee-that doesn't make any sense

That would appear not to make sense but their could be insurance involved.

circadian

bigroad wrote: »

why would I have to be a Vet.

It seemed like a prerequisite to validate the statement you quoted, why shouldn't it apply in relation to your retort?

mulbot

Riverireland wrote: »

That would appear not to make sense but their could be insurance involved.

No there isn't insurance involved at that stage,

Discodog

Discodog wrote: »

So you want to enjoy your "sport" but you are unwilling to contribute a small amount to help repair the damage that your support causes.

My sport does not cause damage, there are horses mistreated in this country but they aren't race horses they are mainly horses owned by travellers.

Discodog wrote: »

So you think that the 1332 horses that died at tracks, often in agony, are treated like kings ?

Yes they are treated like kings, yes unfortunately some get badly injured but they also get badly injured in fields. They have veterinary teams attending to them instantly at racetracks and they are instantly put down if their injuries are severe so there is no lingering on in agony. The horses are attended to as fast as the jockey who fell off where else in he world would you see an animal get treated as quickly as a human.

Discodog

sup_dude wrote: »

There are been millions of horses who have ran a race in the last 8 years. Again, it's all about context.

That could, or it might not. You don't know that and I would rather you didn't make up stats that you have no proof for.

I'm sure you can ask the Dept of Ag, or the Dept of Sports.



A several million euro horse can still be worth an awful lot injured. Do you know why horses are put down when they break their leg? (I'll give you a clue, it's not all about money).

You see, I can and have admitted there are problems that need to be addressed. I think you're just blinded by your ignorance and your need to find a problem. I hate admitting my age because it automatically goes to "oh you're just too young to understand", completely ignoring any points I make. It's just sticking your head into the sand.

It usually is. These days we have the ability to repair even serious injuries but it is very expensive & the animal will not race again.

I wonder if the horse racing industry would be as bad as the greyhound board. In a recent interview the foi data commissioner said that he had so much trouble getting information from the greyhound board that they had to visit the premises & search for it.

http://m.oic.gov.ie/en/Decisions/Decisions-List/Mr-R-and-the-Irish-Greyhound-Board.html

Ave Sodalis

Discodog wrote: »

It usually is. These days we have the ability to repair even serious injuries but it is very expensive & the animal will not race again.

I wonder if the horse racing industry would be as bad as the greyhound board. In a recent interview the foi data commissioner said that he had so much trouble getting information from the greyhound board that they had to visit the premises & search for it.

http://m.oic.gov.ie/en/Decisions/Decisions-List/Mr-R-and-the-Irish-Greyhound-Board.html

No it's not easy to fix a break. The horse in the vast majority of cases, particularly with TBs, are better off. Horses have no sense of the future. They don't know they're going to get better in a few months to a year. They just know that right now, they're in a lot of pain. If you take the pain away, they try to walk on the leg. They don't get that their leg is broke. Then imagine a highly sprung, full of energy horse being locked in a 12x12 (maybe 14x14 in some yards) stable all day, every day without getting out once. This is for months, with no sense of the future. The horse becomes extremely dangerous. Like I said before, they have a very long memory. Habits that develop tend not to go away. I'm going to guess many people who are against it have never tried to handle a dangerous horse. I mean, locking up a quiet horse for that long would send it mental, locking up a high energy horse though, that's suicide for the handlers. And then, of course, there's no guarentee the leg will heal.

But surely if you've worked in rescue, you know this?

Riverireland

sup_dude wrote: »

Breeding is exactly how. And recovery. Horses don't get injuried and they go "oh well, time to put them down so". I'm actually struggling to believe that you ever owned a horse to be honest.

Other than a happy hacker I doubt you've gone very far yet in the equine world. I can send you vets bills for mine, they tend to be a reality check f you'd like to pay them.

Where is my lack of experience apparent? Who is the one talking from experience here, and who is the one merely spouting an uneducated opinion?

Wow, just wow......... I've seen people ride in the mood you're in now, not pretty. Hope you're on a day off.

Honestly Nox, Discodog has got an agenda and no amount of replying is going to change it.

..

Discodog

sup_dude wrote: »

Your post is full of hypocrisy... Honestly, this is the problem with animal rights activists. I have full respect for those actually trying to help and I pity them. Not only do they have to put up with animal abuse, but they have to contend with hysterical nonsense like this that ridicules their case and makes it difficult to take actual abuse cases seriously.

You make the classic assumption that I must be an animal rights nut. I don't agree with animal rights & I disagree with those that do. I am talking about welfare, not rights.

If you pity the people who rescue horses then why support an industry that makes their problem worse ?

Discodog

sup_dude wrote: »

Breeding is exactly how. And recovery. Horses don't get injuried and they go "oh well, time to put them down so". I'm actually struggling to believe that you ever owned a horse to be honest.

Where is my lack of experience apparent? Who is the one talking from experience here, and who is the one merely spouting an uneducated opinion?



Honestly Nox, Discodog has got an agenda and no amount of replying is going to change it.

We all have agendas. I want to stop the unnecessary abuse of animals for pleasure. You want to support the industry that abuses them

PM me nudes

Discodog wrote: »

We all have agendas. I want to stop the unnecessary abuse of animals for pleasure. You want to support the industry that abuses them

The thoroughbred wouldn't exist without the industry

Ave Sodalis

Riverireland wrote: »

..

Great contribution. No wonder you're putting yourself across so well :rolleyes:

Discodog wrote: »

You make the classic assumption that I must be an animal rights nut. I don't agree with animal rights & I disagree with those that do. I am talking about welfare, not rights.

If you pity the people who rescue horses then why support an industry that makes their problem worse ?

Yet you cannot recognise abuse cases when you see them.

Discodog wrote: »

We all have agendas. I want to stop the unnecessary abuse of animals for pleasure. You want to support the industry that abuses them

No, I can just recognise what is and isn't abuse, and don't rely on hyperbolised web blogs to justify my stance.

Discodog

Mavis Faithful Cloverleaf wrote: »

My sport does not cause damage, there are horses mistreated in this country but they aren't race horses they are mainly horses owned by travellers.



Yes they are treated like kings, yes unfortunately some get badly injured but they also get badly injured in fields. They have veterinary teams attending to them instantly at racetracks and they are instantly put down if their injuries are severe so there is no lingering on in agony. The horses are attended to as fast as the jockey who fell off where else in he world would you see an animal get treated as quickly as a human.

That's a rather racist comment.

There is a world of difference between a horse being accidentally getting injure, which is very unlikely to be fatal & a horse getting fatally injured as a result of being made to race & jump.

Ave Sodalis

Discodog wrote: »

That's a rather racist comment.

There is a world of difference between a horse being accidentally getting injure, which is very unlikely to be fatal & a horse getting fatally injured as a result of being made to race & jump.

This has been done to death. You cannot make a horse do anything.

Also, it's not a racist comment. It's realistic. Are you seriously telling me that you think all racing is cruel and yet can't see the actual and genuine cruelty in those road races? Seriously?? Jesus, no wonder welfare laws in this country are so twisted...

Riverireland

sup_dude wrote: »

Great contribution. No wonder you're putting yourself across so well :rolleyes:



Yet you cannot recognise abuse cases when you see them.



No, I can just recognise what is and isn't abuse, and don't rely on hyperbolised web blogs to justify my stance.

I answered you in the thread, if you cared to read it, lol.

Discodog

sup_dude wrote: »

No it's not easy to fix a break. The horse in the vast majority of cases, particularly with TBs, are better off. Horses have no sense of the future. They don't know they're going to get better in a few months to a year. They just know that right now, they're in a lot of pain. If you take the pain away, they try to walk on the leg. They don't get that their leg is broke. Then imagine a highly sprung, full of energy horse being locked in a 12x12 (maybe 14x14 in some yards) stable all day, every day without getting out once. This is for months, with no sense of the future. The horse becomes extremely dangerous. Like I said before, they have a very long memory. Habits that develop tend not to go away. I'm going to guess many people who are against it have never tried to handle a dangerous horse. I mean, locking up a quiet horse for that long would send it mental, locking up a high energy horse though, that's suicide for the handlers. And then, of course, there's no guarentee the leg will heal.

But surely if you've worked in rescue, you know this?

Yes I do & I know that, with companion animals, the decision is based on quality of life. However you see 1300 horses dying at tracks as an acceptable price for sport. I don't.

Ave Sodalis

Riverireland wrote: »

I answered you in the thread, if you cared to read it, lol.

I'm only seeing two dots. You'll have to point it out to me.

Discodog wrote: »

Yes I do & I know that, with companion animals, the decision is based on quality of life. However you see 1300 horses dying at tracks as an acceptable price for sport. I don't.

Firstly, as I have already said, the number of horses dying is too high and efforts are being made the whole time to decrease this. Secondly, you keep quoting 1300, and leaving out the part where it's over an 8 year span, out of millions of races. Quit twisting statistics to suit your agenda

Discodog

sup_dude wrote: »

This has been done to death. You cannot make a horse do anything.

Also, it's not a racist comment. It's realistic. Are you seriously telling me that you think all racing is cruel and yet can't see the actual and genuine cruelty in those road races? Seriously?? Jesus, no wonder welfare laws in this country are so twisted...

Far from it. The new Animal Welfare Act is an excellent piece of legislation. However certain industries lobbied for exclusions. So, for example, greyhounds aren't afforded the same protections as other breeds.

Of course sulky racing is cruel. However it is minute in proportion to horse racing. The abuse results for the same reason - betting.

And cruelty can make a horse do practically anything. I have seen the evidence.

Discodog

sup_dude wrote: »

I'm only seeing two dots. You'll have to point it out to me.



Firstly, as I have already said, the number of horses dying is too high and efforts are being made the whole time to decrease this. Secondly, you keep quoting 1300, and leaving out the part where it's over an 8 year span, out of millions of races. Quit twisting statistics to suit your agenda

Millions of races in the UK ? Really ? Over 8 years ?

So how many horses dying during races would you consider acceptable ?

If it's an accepted part of racing why do stewards rush over with sheets to hide the dying animal from the public & tv ?

Ave Sodalis

Discodog wrote: »

Far from it. The new Animal Welfare Act is an excellent piece of legislation. However certain industries lobbied for exclusions. So, for example, greyhounds aren't afforded the same protections as other breeds.

Of course sulky racing is cruel. However it is minute in proportion to horse racing. The abuse results for the same reason - betting.

And cruelty can make a horse do practically anything. I have seen the evidence.

We aren't talking abut greyhounds...

It's minute in proportion? You're telling me that a "sport" without regulation which frequently sees horses as young as weanlings breaking down and being left to die is not as abusive as a highly regulated sport where equine welfare is always being discussed? You're telling me that in a "sport" with zero regard for the animal, that's often stuck into illfitting tack and shoes, is not as abusive as a sport that has regular inspections and an enquirey committee which pulls up any sniff of misconduct? You're telling me that a sport where it's not uncommon to see horses covered in blood and tied back to the last, where the horses are banjaxed before they're even fully grown... that's not as bad as racing where disqualifications are handed out? Are you being serious?! Jez, no wonder I think your sense of moral judgement is off...

Discodog

Discodog wrote: »

That's a rather racist comment.

Comments like that make your already very weak and badly informed arguments even less likely to be listened to.

How can I be racist against a group of white Irish people?

Also I'm not even referring to sulky racing which is bad but just the general mistreatment of horses. If a racing stable treated a horse like travellers do they would be closed down.

Discodog wrote: »

There is a world of difference between a horse being accidentally getting injure, which is very unlikely to be fatal & a horse getting fatally injured as a result of being made to race & jump.

Horses love racing, they love jumping and they wouldn't do it unless they wanted to. Horses regularly die from injuries sustained in fields except they are more likely to suffer and suffer for longer as they wont have a team vets on the scene instantly to aid them or put them down if their injuries are bad or they are in extreme pain.

Ave Sodalis

Discodog wrote: »

Millions of races in the UK ? Really ? Over 8 years ?

So how many horses dying during races would you consider acceptable ?

If it's an accepted part of racing why do stewards rush over with sheets to hide the dying animal from the public & tv ?

Between the UK and Ireland, yes. There's thousands of races every year.

Because of people like you who like to cry cruelty at everything.

Discodog

Discodog wrote: »

Millions of races in the UK ? Really ? Over 8 years ?

So how many horses dying during races would you consider acceptable ?

If it's an accepted part of racing why do stewards rush over with sheets to hide the dying animal from the public & tv ?

There would be well over a million runners over the 8 years between Ireland and the uk. 1300 is a tiny number of deaths compared with the number of runners.

diomed

I look forward to the Grand National in April when we will have the next airing of ignorance about thoroughbred horses and horse racing.

Ave Sodalis

diomed wrote: »

I look forward to the Grand National in April when we will have the next airing of ignorance about thoroughbred horses and horse racing.

I think I shall remove myself from Boards during that period

Discodog

Mavis Faithful Cloverleaf wrote: »

Comments like that make your already very weak and badly informed arguments even less likely to be listened to.

How can I be racist against a group of white Irish people?

Also I'm not even referring to sulky racing which is bad but just the general mistreatment of horses. If a racing stable treated a horse like travellers do they would be closed down.



Horses love racing, they love jumping and they wouldn't do it unless they wanted to. Horses regularly die from injuries sustained in fields except they are more likely to suffer and suffer for longer as they wont have a team vets on the scene instantly to aid them or put them down if their injuries are bad or they are in extreme pain.

I have kept horses & been around them all my life. Most of my neighbours keep horses. I have never heard of one sustaining a life threatening injury.

They do love jumping & if pushed, will attempt dangerously high or difficult fences too fast. You only have to watch the Grand National to see it. Even they have recognised that the carnage can't go on & changed some of the fences.

As keepers of animals it is our responsibility to reduce the risk of injury not increase it. We have a duty of care to keep them safe.

Discodog

sup_dude wrote: »

We aren't talking abut greyhounds...

It's minute in proportion? You're telling me that a "sport" without regulation which frequently sees horses as young as weanlings breaking down and being left to die is not as abusive as a highly regulated sport where equine welfare is always being discussed? You're telling me that in a "sport" with zero regard for the animal, that's often stuck into illfitting tack and shoes, is not as abusive as a sport that has regular inspections and an enquirey committee which pulls up any sniff of misconduct? You're telling me that a sport where it's not uncommon to see horses covered in blood and tied back to the last, where the horses are banjaxed before they're even fully grown... that's not as bad as racing where disqualifications are handed out? Are you being serious?! Jez, no wonder I think your sense of moral judgement is off...

Yes it is. You claim that there are millions of horse races. There aren't millions of sulky races. But you failed to acknowledge the fact that I want all cruelty banned.

Discodog

PM me nudes wrote: »

The thoroughbred wouldn't exist without the industry

& what is the thoroughbred ? There are huge problems with the gene pool being too small. And of course they would still exist.

runawaybishop

Discodog wrote: »

I have kept horses & been around them all my life. Most of my neighbours keep horses. I have never heard of one sustaining a life threatening injury.

I have, a fair few tbh. It happens often enough.

Discodog

runawaybishop wrote: »

I have, a fair few tbh. It happens often enough.

How ? What kind of injuries ?

bigroad

bigroad wrote: »

If you were ever a cross country runner you will have some idea what a horse goes through.
If I would have had someone on my back hitting me I would have killed them.

This is my favourite post so far.

John Treacy, he knows the pain of the horse...

Discodog

sup_dude wrote: »

Between the UK and Ireland, yes. There's thousands of races every year.

Because of people like you who like to cry cruelty at everything.

People like me ? Cruelty used to be defined as beating, starving, terrifying & infuriating an animal. The new Animal Welfare Act defines it very differently & put an onus of the keeper to provide for all the needs of the animal which includes it's safety. One could argue that encouraging a horse to run & jump at the limits of it's ability isn't promoting safety.

If I hit my dog I could be arrested but hitting my horse is fine.

Discodog

bigroad wrote: »

If you were ever a cross country runner you will have some idea what a horse goes through.
If I would have had someone on my back hitting me I would have killed them.

But according to lads here he would only of been giving you a gentle reminder :rolleyes:

runawaybishop

Discodog wrote: »

How ? What kind of injuries ?

Most commonly wire wrapped around their legs, usually after jumping the fence into someone else's property. Seen a fair few get hit by cars. Also pretty common to see injuries from stepping in holes or just picking up a stone. Good few injuries as well from acting the maggot with each other.

Discodog

runawaybishop wrote: »

Most commonly wire wrapped around their legs, usually after jumping the fence into someone else's property. Seen a fair few get hit by cars. Also pretty common to see injuries from stepping in holes or just picking up a stone. Good few injuries as well from acting the maggot with each other.

You mean wire that shouldn't be there ? Or hit by cars because they are loose ?

Out of curiosity I asked my vet & a friend who has a school & big yard. They both pointed out that barbed wire injuries shouldn't happen. Apart from the occasional pulled tendon or bites they couldn't recall any major injuries that would be life threatening & need urgent veterinary attention.

They say that most field injuries result from poor field maintenance

runawaybishop

Discodog wrote: »

You mean wire that shouldn't be there ? Or hit by cars because they are loose ?

Out of curiosity I asked my vet & a friend who has a school & big yard. They both pointed out that barbed wire injuries shouldn't happen. Apart from the occasional pulled tendon or bites they couldn't recall any major injuries that would be life threatening & need urgent veterinary attention.

They say that most field injuries result from poor field maintenance

Sorry, I though you were looking for a real answer, didn't realise you just wanted to grandstand. Nice how you ignored the bits not relevant to your argument and then made up some unbelievable ****e about a vet not seeing injuries from horses in the field.

Wompa1

diomed wrote: »

I look forward to the Grand National in April when we will have the next airing of ignorance about thoroughbred horses and horse racing.

I'm pretty sure the chatter then is about the cruelty of that particular race and the course itself...but go on. I guess all the horses that fall just wanted to fall. A horse must know the risk before leaving the gate...

I'm enjoying reading the comments from the horse experts. Not only do they know the in's and out's of racing but apparently they are horse psychologists and know how every horse involved in racing feels.

I had said myself. They don't use the whip as often as it seems but they still condition the horse using the whip. It is cruel. Pushing a horse to the point that it's heart explodes within an hour after the race is cruel. Making a horse jump over a steep hurdle on hard ground is cruel. To suggest that it's ok because the horse enjoys it is nothing more than an attempt to justify the mistreatment of the horses.

Horses are c*nts. The idea that they won't do something if they don't want to is b*llocks. It sounds like the kind of drivel that somebody who's never owned a horse would come out with or at least the kind of drivel somebody that wants to defend the money they make or gamble in the sport. You constantly see horses in a distressed state before a race. If you've ever owned a horse and had to move it or anything. You'll be aware of the control you have over the animal. It may not want to go but you can force it. If you're one top of him, whipping or kicking him in the ribs. He'll do what you want through conditioning. It's fear.

Discodog

runawaybishop wrote: »

Sorry, I though you were looking for a real answer, didn't realise you just wanted to grandstand. Nice how you ignored the bits not relevant to your argument and then made up some unbelievable ****e about a vet not seeing injuries from horses in the field.

The issue was raised because a poster claimed that horses were just as likely to be seriously injured in the field as they would be in a race. And that the injuries would be serious & that veterinary attention wouldn't be available.

A stone in a hoof, acting the maggot, or sticking in a hole are very different to the fatal injuries sustained during racing. My vet is a close personal friend so it's reasonable that I would ask him because I was genuinely curious. He did point out that field injuries here would be higher because barbed wire is common & horses are often left on very rough ground.

I use to work with the RSPCA & Horse rescues in the UK that had dozens of animals in fields. I can't recall ever seeing a serious injury only minor scrapes. If a horse is jumping out of a field into a road then the owner is seriously negligent. Fence tops should be a rail not a wire.

The difference is that, in the UK, a lot of the horses are pets whereas here most are livestock. Just as with race horses commercial greed takes presidence over welfare.

Discodog

Discodog wrote: »

You mean wire that shouldn't be there ? Or hit by cars because they are loose ?

Out of curiosity I asked my vet & a friend who has a school & big yard. They both pointed out that barbed wire injuries shouldn't happen. Apart from the occasional pulled tendon or bites they couldn't recall any major injuries that would be life threatening & need urgent veterinary attention.

They say that most field injuries result from poor field maintenance

Hit by cars after jumping walls most likely and escaping rather than being loose. Also why shouldn't wire be there, we couldn't keep animals in fields without wire and electric fences and they aren't horses, with horses you need high electric fences to keep the confined to a field.

You never head of horses dying in a field, one of the greatest national hunt horses of all time kauto star died recently in his paddock years after retiring, if you didn't hear that I don't see how you would hear of lower profile or no profile horses who die in their fields.

diomed

Wompa1 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure the chatter then is about the cruelty of that particular race and the course itself...but go on. I guess all the horses that fall just wanted to fall. A horse must know the risk before leaving the gate...

I'm enjoying reading the comments from the horse experts. Not only do they know the in's and out's of racing but apparently they are horse psychologists and know how every horse involved in racing feels.

I had said myself. They don't use the whip as often as it seems but they still condition the horse using the whip. It is cruel. Pushing a horse to the point that it's heart explodes within an hour after the race is cruel. Making a horse jump over a steep hurdle on hard ground is cruel. To suggest that it's ok because the horse enjoys it is nothing more than an attempt to justify the mistreatment of the horses.

Horses are c*nts. The idea that they won't do something if they don't want to is b*llocks. It sounds like the kind of drivel that somebody who's never owned a horse would come out with or at least the kind of drivel somebody that wants to defend the money they make or gamble in the sport. You constantly see horses in a distressed state before a race. If you've ever owned a horse and had to move it or anything. You'll be aware of the control you have over the animal. It may not want to go but you can force it. If you're one top of him, whipping or kicking him in the ribs. He'll do what you want through conditioning. It's fear.

That is a very emotional post.
I get the impression you believe owners make lots of money from racing, and they make the money by forcing animals to do things they would not do naturally.

Your post is rambling, fact free, and full of opinion.
I'll try to address your comments as best I can.

"I guess all the horses that fall just wanted to fall.
A horse must know the risk before leaving the gate..."
Federico Tesio observed that horses are not natural jumpers. They will avoid the activity. It is a learned skill. Obviously horses do not want to fall.

"leaving the gate" is an American expression, not used in Ireland or the UK. Perhaps you are not familiar with Irish racing.
Horses exit from starting stalls in flat racing.
Horses line up behind a tape in jump racing, and start when the tape is raised.

"A horse must know the risk before leaving the gate".
A typical jump horse will be aged 6 to 12, and has probably been trained from the age of 4. It will know how to race. It will know how to jump.
A flat horse will race from the age of 2 to 4 or 5. They start in short races (5 furlongs or 5/8 of a mile) that take about a minute. They will have trained at home for the race.

"apparently they are horse psychologists and know how every horse involved in racing feels"
Thoroughbreds are a manufactured breed. They do not occur in the wild. They have been selectively bred from about 1700 in Europe, and centuries before that in the middle-east and north Africa. They are bred to race. It is not an activity that is against their nature. Their parents, grandparents, great-grandparents all raced. I could easily give you the last twenty generations of the pedigree of any horse running today. They are a closed breed, bred only for racing.

"They don't use the whip as often as it seems but they still condition the horse using the whip. It is cruel."
The whip is a maximum of 70 centimetres long, a minimum of 1 centimeter diameter in width, and weight about 0.3 of a pound. The part that strikes the horse is padded.
Horses run when whipped because it is thought they believe they are being attacked from behind (herd instinct / predators).
When do jockeys use the whip? Mainly at the finish of the race, perhaps in the final 100 yards, a distance a horse covers in about six seconds. Hardly traumatic.

"Pushing a horse to the point that it's heart explodes within an hour after the race is cruel."
Would you give some facts to support this. I have attended races for the last forty years and only once saw an animal die from a heart attack. Their heartrate can rise to 240 beats a minute. My heartrate has been over 200 during exercise.

"Making a horse jump over a steep hurdle on hard ground is cruel. To suggest that it's ok because the horse enjoys it is nothing more than an attempt to justify the mistreatment of the horses."
Hurdles are a minimum of 3.5 feet so I wouldn't call that a big jump.
I analyse thousands of races (I have a pedigree database of 344,000 horses and a ratings database of 140,000).
Ground descriptions are hard, firm, good/firm, good, good/soft, soft, soft/heavy, heavy. (Irish descriptions might vary e.g. yielding).
I have not seen a going description of "hard" in decades. The only place I recall seeing that description is Bath. I have a full series of form book going back to ~1895. Please tell me the race meeting that was described as "hard" and I will check if you are correct.

"The idea that they won't do something if they don't want to is b*llocks ....the kind of drivel somebody that wants to defend the money they make or gamble in the sport."
You have no idea about money in horseracing. The top horses are owned by billionaires who treat the sport as a pastime. They do not make money from horseracing. They contribute to horseracing.

These are the top ten owners from 2015:
Godolphin [owned by a Sheikh from Dubai]
Mr Hamdan Al Maktoum [Dubai]
Mr A. E. Oppenheimer [De Beers diamond fortune]
Wertheimer et Frere [House of Chanel perfume]
Mrs John Magnier [owns Coolmore Stud, his worth about €700m]
Mr Derrick Smith
Sheikh Hamdan Bin Mohammed Al Maktoum [Dubai]
Qatar Racing Limited
Mr M. Tabor
Sheikh Mohammed Obaid Al Maktoum

"You constantly see horses in a distressed state before a race. If you've ever owned a horse and had to move it or anything. You'll be aware of the control you have over the animal. It may not want to go but you can force it. If you're one top of him, whipping or kicking him in the ribs. He'll do what you want through conditioning. It's fear."
I have watched thousands of thoroughbreds in parade rings before races. I can not recall seeing a horse in fear. I have seen a few refuse to enter starting stall, or refuse to race when the tapes go up.
I have never seen a jockey whipping a horse before a race or kicking him in the ribs. I have seen a jockey kick his heels in gently. This is just a signal to the horse that the jockey wants the horse to move.

Please reply with some checkable facts.

Discodog

Mavis Faithful Cloverleaf wrote: »

Hit by cars after jumping walls most likely and escaping rather than being loose. Also why shouldn't wire be there, we couldn't keep animals in fields without wire and electric fences and they aren't horses, with horses you need high electric fences to keep the confined to a field.

You never head of horses dying in a field, one of the greatest national hunt horses of all time kauto star died recently in his paddock years after retiring, if you didn't hear that I don't see how you would hear of lower profile or no profile horses who die in their fields.

You appear to be agreeing me that horses need proper fencing.

I didn't say that I had never heard of it. I said that a horse is far more likely to be seriously injured during a race then in a field.

mulbot

Wompa1 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure the chatter then is about the cruelty of that particular race and the course itself...but go on. I guess all the horses that fall just wanted to fall. A horse must know the risk before leaving the gate...

I'm enjoying reading the comments from the horse experts. Not only do they know the in's and out's of racing but apparently they are horse psychologists and know how every horse involved in racing feels.

I had said myself. They don't use the whip as often as it seems but they still condition the horse using the whip. It is cruel. Pushing a horse to the point that it's heart explodes within an hour after the race is cruel. Making a horse jump over a steep hurdle on hard ground is cruel. To suggest that it's ok because the horse enjoys it is nothing more than an attempt to justify the mistreatment of the horses.

Horses are c*nts. The idea that they won't do something if they don't want to is b*llocks. It sounds like the kind of drivel that somebody who's never owned a horse would come out with or at least the kind of drivel somebody that wants to defend the money they make or gamble in the sport. You constantly see horses in a distressed state before a race. If you've ever owned a horse and had to move it or anything. You'll be aware of the control you have over the animal. It may not want to go but you can force it. If you're one top of him, whipping or kicking him in the ribs. He'll do what you want through conditioning. It's fear.

You obviously didn't see(aswell as many many other races) the start of the PaddyPower chase in leopardstown yesterday

Hitchens

the whip is used to guide the horse

Discodog

Discodog wrote: »

You appear to be agreeing me that horses need proper fencing.
.

Things can still happen though, power cut so no power, malfunctioning fence battery, spooked horse breaking through the fence so it is possible for horses to escape even when well fenced in.

I'd wager a lot of the horses that get hit by cars etc though are ones living on the side of the road belonging to a certain community of people.

Pyr0

I have to say, sup_dude has the patience of an absolute saint dealing with the rabble in this thread, jaysus!

Odelay

Wompa1 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure the chatter then is about the cruelty of that particular race and the course itself...but go on. I guess all the horses that fall just wanted to fall. A horse must know the risk before leaving the gate...

I'm enjoying reading the comments from the horse experts. Not only do they know the in's and out's of racing but apparently they are horse psychologists and know how every horse involved in racing feels.

I had said myself. They don't use the whip as often as it seems but they still condition the horse using the whip. It is cruel. Pushing a horse to the point that it's heart explodes within an hour after the race is cruel. Making a horse jump over a steep hurdle on hard ground is cruel. To suggest that it's ok because the horse enjoys it is nothing more than an attempt to justify the mistreatment of the horses.

Horses are c*nts. The idea that they won't do something if they don't want to is b*llocks. It sounds like the kind of drivel that somebody who's never owned a horse would come out with or at least the kind of drivel somebody that wants to defend the money they make or gamble in the sport. You constantly see horses in a distressed state before a race. If you've ever owned a horse and had to move it or anything. You'll be aware of the control you have over the animal. It may not want to go but you can force it. If you're one top of him, whipping or kicking him in the ribs. He'll do what you want through conditioning. It's fear.

Well going by that you are the exact person that shouldn't own a horse. Please tell me you never owned one??

Odelay

Pyr0 wrote: »

I have to say, sup_dude has the patience of an absolute saint dealing with the rabble in this thread, jaysus!

I'd have to agree, it is unreal the shoite spouted on here by those that never been to a racing yard.