Whipping in horse racing

Kovu

Mavis Faithful Cloverleaf wrote: »

Things can still happen though, power cut so no power, malfunctioning fence battery, spooked horse breaking through the fence so it is possible for horses to escape even when well fenced in.

Second this wholeheartedly. Have proper fencing here for cattle but had one mare who would jump over wire of 4ft or that, complete with winter rug on.
The gelding I got after that learned how to pull bolts on gates so let himself out when he liked.
Neighbour had two last year who would just leap across ditches into the next field if the grass looked better. And one of those was badly injured in the field last year with a kick from one fracturing a bone in the lower leg. Stable rest and patience means it survived but it was about 60/40 and the vet did suggest putting her down when he first called out to her.

Discodog

diomed wrote: »

Please reply with some checkable facts.

Horse racing in Ireland generates revenues in excess of €1.35 billion

http://www.itba.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Dukes-Report-II-October-2013-Update.pdf

Add to that 70 million in betting tax.

And you say that it isn't about the money.

Discodog

Mavis Faithful Cloverleaf wrote: »

Things can still happen though, power cut so no power, malfunctioning fence battery, spooked horse breaking through the fence so it is possible for horses to escape even when well fenced in.

I'd wager a lot of the horses that get hit by cars etc though are ones living on the side of the road belonging to a certain community of people.

Many horses in Ireland are fenced with a couple of strands of dangerous barbed wire.

You conveniently forget the thousands of horses abandoned by their owners because they couldn't afford to keep them.

Yet again it's about money.

Ave Sodalis

Pyr0 wrote:

I have to say, sup_dude has the patience of an absolute saint dealing with the rabble in this thread, jaysus!

I've taken a step back. Anyone who tries to argue that racing is worse than gigs are too far detached from reality to bother with. It's just a pity that that kind of hysteria takes away from actual cruelty.

Odelay wrote:

I'd have to agree, it is unreal the shoite spouted on here by those that never been to a racing yard.

To be honest, I'm doubting many of the people who have even claimed to own a horse.

Ave Sodalis

Kovu wrote:

Second this wholeheartedly. Have proper fencing here for cattle but had one mare who would jump over wire of 4ft or that, complete with winter rug on. The gelding I got after that learned how to pull bolts on gates so let himself out when he liked. Neighbour had two last year who would just leap across ditches into the next field if the grass looked better. And one of those was badly injured in the field last year with a kick from one fracturing a bone in the lower leg. Stable rest and patience means it survived but it was about 60/40 and the vet did suggest putting her down when he first called out to her.

You can wrap a horse in bubble wrap and put it in a padded room and it will still get injured.

Discodog wrote:

And you say that it isn't about the money.

So because it generates money for the government, the only reason anyone races is for money?

Discodog wrote:

You conveniently forget the thousands of horses abandoned by their owners because they couldn't afford to keep them.

All of them are racing Thoroughbreds? Have you conveniently forgotten all the other abandoned horses, or are you choosing to ignore them?

Odelay

Odelay wrote: »

Hey, why don't you get on to the owners of the two horses that stood still at the starting line in leopardstown today??? They just stood there when the race began, no intention of moving. Maybe you could tell them how to "force" the horse to take a few strides, never mind jump fences....

mulbot wrote: »

You obviously didn't see(aswell as many many other races) the start of the PaddyPower chase in leopardstown yesterday

@Womba 1, see my above, why did the jockeys just sit on the horses and not beat them to start? Some sort of conspiracy??? Or maybe they just knew they weren't interested in racing on the day?? Have you any ideas on how to force them to race??? And no, it wasn't about betting, you try to hold one of them on the starting line, if the want to go there is little you can do to stop them, especially with the soft snaffle bit that is used.

Discodog

Hitchens wrote: »

the whip is used to guide the horse

I think you will find that it's the reins that do that job. I can ride perfectly well without a whip

Discodog

Kovu wrote: »

Second this wholeheartedly. Have proper fencing here for cattle but had one mare who would jump over wire of 4ft or that, complete with winter rug on.
The gelding I got after that learned how to pull bolts on gates so let himself out when he liked.
Neighbour had two last year who would just leap across ditches into the next field if the grass looked better. And one of those was badly injured in the field last year with a kick from one fracturing a bone in the lower leg. Stable rest and patience means it survived but it was about 60/40 and the vet did suggest putting her down when he first called out to her.

So are you arguing that it's ok to have a horse escape because the fencing is inadequate ? Bolts can't be pulled if a simple dog lead style fastener is put through the bolt. Ditches won't contain animals without a proper fence.

But guess what - fences cost money

Discodog

sup_dude wrote: »

You can wrap a horse in bubble wrap and put it in a padded room and it will still get injured.



So because it generates money for the government, the only reason anyone races is for money?


All of them are racing Thoroughbreds? Have you conveniently forgotten all the other abandoned horses, or are you choosing to ignore them?

Of course not but you know, because I posted the figures, that thousands of thoroughbreds were needlessly killed because it wasn't worth paying for their upkeep - Money again. Even though the industry generates billions they won't spend a little to look after the horses that have raced.

How about a 10% welfare levy on betting ? Then the industry would be able to boast about it's fabulous welfare facilities & the hard up rescues wouldn't be battling to cope.

Kovu

Discodog wrote: »

So are you arguing that it's ok to have a horse escape because the fencing is inadequate ? Bolts can't be pulled if a simple dog lead style fastener is put through the bolt. Ditches won't contain animals without a proper fence.

But guess what - fences cost money

No, I'm saying that horses can escape despite being in a well fenced area. It does take time to figure out where and why a horse is getting out. Would your first thought be that a horse jumped a 4ft barbed fence-gate in a rug for the craic?
Until I could catch her in the act I assumed she was jumping a ditch or another gate in the field.

byhookorbycrook

Discodog wrote: »

Even though the industry generates billions they won't spend a little to look after the horses that have raced.

I think you need to open your eyes a little. Racehorse to riding classes, eventing, hunting all have loads of ex racers. Not every horse is suitable for retraining and yes, I do know that whilst many are retired to the field, many aren't. A horse doesn't understand why it is in a field, retired.

I made the mistake of keeping an old horse alive because I was selfish. He shattered a hock in the stable, we had to bute him to move him out for the vet to destroy him.The groans and moans of him haunt me still. I will never, ever forget the pain that horse suffered because I was only thinking of me and not what was best for him. So yes,I believe that destroying a horse is not inhumane.

Discodog

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I think you need to open your eyes a little. Racehorse to riding classes, eventing, hunting all have loads of ex racers. Not every horse is suitable for retraining and yes, I do know that whilst many are retired to the field, many aren't. A horse doesn't understand why it is in a field, retired.

I made the mistake of keeping an old horse alive because I was selfish. He shattered a hock in the stable, we had to bute him to move him out for the vet to destroy him.The groans and moans of him haunt me still. I will never, ever forget the pain that horse suffered because I was only thinking of me and not what was best for him. So yes,I believe that destroying a horse is not inhumane.

I agree with some of your post but I don't accept that the thousands that are put down couldn't be better looked after. After all there are vast amounts of money available.

If a horse is so preconditioned that it can't be rehabilitated you have to question whether that constitutes cruelty. In my experience most animal behaviour can be repaired but it takes a lot of time & money.

But my real concern is, by just accepting slaughter, we devalue life. It just reinforces that the animal is a commodity to be used & then discarded. The fact remains that the industry don't pay for the welfare of the animals that they use.

Odelay

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I think you need to open your eyes a little. Racehorse to riding classes, eventing, hunting all have loads of ex racers. Not every horse is suitable for retraining and yes, I do know that whilst many are retired to the field, many aren't. A horse doesn't understand why it is in a field, retired.

I made the mistake of keeping an old horse alive because I was selfish. He shattered a hock in the stable, we had to bute him to move him out for the vet to destroy him.The groans and moans of him haunt me still. I will never, ever forget the pain that horse suffered because I was only thinking of me and not what was best for him. So yes,I believe that destroying a horse is not inhumane.

Hurt himself in the stable?? Are you sure it wasn't while you were beating him and forcing him over 6ft fences at 40km/hr??? Did you take his babies to see him being shot so they would learn to run faster??? :rolleyes:

Sorry byhookorbycrook, I know you have great knowledge and are caring of your horses, just some of the responses here are incredible. It seems like that is the kind of thing they are looking for..

Ave Sodalis

Discodog wrote: »

But my real concern is, by just accepting slaughter, we devalue life. It just reinforces that the animal is a commodity to be used & then discarded.

If someone wants to use and discard a horse, they're going to do it anyway whether slaughter is accepted or not.

Discodog

sup_dude wrote: »

If someone wants to use and discard a horse, they're going to do it anyway whether slaughter is accepted or not.

Yes the difference is when thousands of people do it whilst being backed by the government. Even a 10% levy would ensure that every ex racer, horse & greyhound, could enjoy retirement. It would provide hundreds of jobs in the rescues & give a good public image.

But the government & the industry are too mean to give a poxy 10%

Ave Sodalis

Discodog wrote: »

Yes the difference is when thousands of people do it whilst being backed by the government. Even a 10% levy would ensure that every ex racer, horse & greyhound, could enjoy retirement. It would provide hundreds of jobs in the rescues & give a good public image.

But the government & the industry are too mean to give a poxy 10%

Do you know Aidan O Brien sponsors IHWT? Did you know that IHWT have a section dedicated to racehorse retraining? It's also sponsored by Chryss Goulandris, and Tracey Piggott, and Jessica Harrington...

byhookorbycrook

Discodog wrote: »

Yes the difference is when thousands of people do it whilst being backed by the government. Even a 10% levy would ensure that every ex racer, horse & greyhound, could enjoy retirement. It would provide hundreds of jobs in the rescues & give a good public image.

But the government & the industry are too mean to give a poxy 10%

Discodog, what about all those cows and chickens that could enjoy retirement?

You are thinking like a human, a horse does not know why it is no longer doing what it used to do and why it isn't doing it any more.

If you want to get incensed about horse welfare drive past Dunsink some day. I'd prefer a horse to be destroyed than left to starve. It's a honest thing to do and means a quick painless end, not a slow lingering death.

Discodog

sup_dude wrote: »

Do you know Aidan O Brien sponsors IHWT? Did you know that IHWT have a section dedicated to racehorse retraining? It's also sponsored by Chryss Goulandris, and Tracey Piggott, and Jessica Harrington...

Yes & it's laudable. There are also lots of small rescues that do all they can. Ask the IHWT what they could do with 200 million a year, roughly equal to 10 %. The industry can so easily afford it. Even 1% 20 million a year would transform the IHWT.

Discodog

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Discodog, what about all those cows and chickens that could enjoy retirement?

You are thinking like a human, a horse does not know why it is no longer doing what it used to do and why it isn't doing it any more.

If you want to get incensed about horse welfare drive past Dunsink some day. I'd prefer a horse to be destroyed than left to starve. It's a honest thing to do and means a quick painless end, not a slow lingering death.

I agree that I would prefer a quick death to starvation. But I would use part of the 200 million to set up proper horse welfare officers & to ensure that horses were all microchipped. If you let your horse starve you would go to jail.

Cows & chickens are bred for food not sport. We don't race cows. But I would agree that there should be more humane care.

I have been working with & surrounded by animals all my life. I have a greyhound here that will soon be on my lap for the evening. She had never been inside a house & was terrified by the tv etc. I have worked with the RSPCA & seen things that would make a lot of people physically sick. But the animals have amazing powers of recovery. Very very few horses can't be well rehabilitated provided the money is there.

Your "thinking like a human" argument could apply to dogs cats etc. We treat them differently because we care about their welfare. If someone put a healthy dog, with many good years ahead of it, down it would be regarded as wrong but it's fine to do it to a horse.

I can understand if someone falls on hard times & can't afford their horse but we are talking about an industry that literally generates billions.

Discodog

Discodog wrote: »

You conveniently forget the thousands of horses abandoned by their owners because they couldn't afford to keep them.

Yet again it's about money.

I would happily wager a months betting money that none or very close to none of the abandoned horses were every even envisaged as race horses. You need to stop confusing the racing industry with the geneal equine industry.

Discodog wrote: »

I think you will find that it's the reins that do that job. I can ride perfectly well without a whip

I can ride a nice quiet, easily managed horse easily without a whip too, but a headstrong horse is a different story and a highly strung racehorse is in a different level again.

Discodog wrote: »

Your "thinking like a human" argument could apply to dogs cats etc. We treat them differently because we care about their welfare. If someone put a healthy dog, with many good years ahead of it, down it would be regarded as wrong but it's fine to do it to a horse.

I don't see the problem with the humane slaughter of horses, the same as I have no idea why people go to so much effort with unwanted dogs and cats or even more so nuisance animals or feral animals. They should just be put down, there is no logical reason for keeping them alive.

Justmooching

sup_dude wrote: »

To be honest, I'm doubting many of the people who have even claimed to own a horse.

Out of curiosity how many horses have you actually owned?

kowloon

keith16 wrote: »

A load of men, running around a pitch, kicking a bag of wind.

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bp9hudOIEAAPaml.jpg

Ave Sodalis

Justmooching wrote:

Out of curiosity how many horses have you actually owned?

Owned personally, none. Rode- 2/300. Worked with- not a notion, probably over 1000. I could never afford my own. Still can't. So I've worked/volunteered as much as I possibly could in the last decade, and as a result was given sole responsibility over several horses over the years. It was as good as ownership, without the financial issue

Justmooching

sup_dude wrote: »

Owned personally, none. Rode- 2/300. Worked with- not a notion, probably over 1000. I could never afford my own. Still can't. So I've worked/volunteered as much as I possibly could in the last decade, and as a result was given sole responsibility over several horses over the years. It was as good as ownership, without the financial issue

Worked with over 1000! That's over 100 a year every year for the last decade!
What actual qualifications do you have? Any BHS stages or teaching qualifications?

After all of you have been given sole responsibility for several horses I am sure the owners would not just give the horse to someone that gets upset at going into a canter.

Odelay

Justmooching wrote: »

Worked with over 1000! That's over 100 a year every year for the last decade!
What actual qualifications do you have? Any BHS stages or teaching qualifications?

After all of you have been given sole responsibility for several horses I am sure the owners would not just give the horse to someone that gets upset at going into a canter.

Sometimes the most responsible people are those that never owned a horse, a horse can be got for nothing, the responsible person knows NOT to own until you can afford to look after it in all conditions.

Ave Sodalis

Justmooching wrote:

Worked with over 1000! That's over 100 a year every year for the last decade! What actual qualifications do you have? Any BHS stages or teaching qualifications?

I've already stated my qualifications.

Justmooching wrote:

After all of you have been given sole responsibility for several horses I am sure the owners would not just give the horse to someone that gets upset at going into a canter.

Eh, what?

Justmooching

sup_dude wrote: »

I've already stated my qualifications.

So you don't have any recognised qualifications then. Apart from some worthless degree in "equine science"?

Eh, what?

Maybe I should have asked a different question. What competitions do you do or have done to make you qualified to judge anything? What experience of racing do you have?

Sheeps

Justmooching wrote: »

So you don't have any recognised qualifications then. Apart from some worthless degree in "equine science"?



Maybe I should have asked a different question. What competitions do you do or have done to make you qualified to judge anything? What experience of racing do you have?

You sound like someone with a serious chip on your shoulder because you can't afford a horse and never did an equine science degree. Now you're trying to devalue sup_dudes qualification because you want to be the person who knows it all to win your little internet argument.

mulbot

Justmooching wrote: »

So you don't have any recognised qualifications then. Apart from some worthless degree in "equine science"?



Maybe I should have asked a different question. What competitions do you do or have done to make you qualified to judge anything? What experience of racing do you have?

What gives you the right to call anybody's degree worthless? In fact, in the industry it's a very valuable degree to have.!!
You seem to think also in your earlier post that riding 100 horses in a year is unbelievable-that's 2 horses a week,I know many work riders who ride that number in a day,every day,all year!!

Justmooching

Justmooching wrote: »

Worked with over 1000! That's over 100 a year every year for the last decade!
What actual qualifications do you have? Any BHS stages or teaching qualifications?

After all of you have been given sole responsibility for several horses I am sure the owners would not just give the horse to someone that gets upset at going into a canter.

Joined up a day ago, every post so far has been in this thread and specifically directed at one poster?

Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmmm...

Mesrine65

Justmooching

Sheeps wrote: »

You sound like someone with a serious chip on your shoulder because you can't afford a horse and never did an equine science degree. Now you're trying to devalue sup_dudes qualification because you want to be the person who knows it all to win your little internet argument.

Can't afford a horse. Right you are I wonder which one of the 8 I have that will get used today? The qualification is devalued because I have yet to hear of anyone that isn't working in a shop after completing it hence why I said it was worthless.

mulbot wrote: »

What gives you the right to call anybody's degree worthless? In fact, in the industry it's a very valuable degree to have.!!
You seem to think also in your earlier post that riding 100 horses in a year is unbelievable-that's 2 horses a week,I know many work riders who ride that number in a day,every day,all year!!

See my point above, in the industry more people value the qualification from Gurteen/Athlone but hey I know nothing.

Knowing a bit about the "yard" she frequents then yeah I do think it is unbelievable. She is a shyster with no teaching qualifications yet has taught at least one person I know off. Then swans about on here as some sort of all knowing seer.

I guess now that will be me banned as the clique will circle the wagons and protect the "superstar"!

NachoBusiness

They have no whip races now and again. Brings the jockey's horsemanship more in to play for sure. Far to many jockey's rely on the whip to make it appear as if they are working hard to win when they are doing anything but. For that reason I wouldn't mind seeing it outlawed completely. Make the sport more transparent.

Ave Sodalis

Justmooching wrote:

Can't afford a horse. Right you are I wonder which one of the 8 I have that will get used today? The qualification is devalued because I have yet to hear of anyone that isn't working in a shop after completing it hence why I said it was worthless.

I take it you know very few so...

Justmooching wrote:

See my point above, in the industry more people value the qualification from Gurteen/Athlone but hey I know nothing.

Not in my experience...

Justmooching wrote:

Knowing a bit about the "yard" she frequents then yeah I do think it is unbelievable. She is a shyster with no teaching qualifications yet has taught at least one person I know off. Then swans about on here as some sort of all knowing seer.

One yard? If you think I've only frequented one yard, then you are sadly mistaken and don't know me at all. Are you sure you know me at all?

Boom_Bap

Justmooching wrote: »

Can't afford a horse. Right you are I wonder which one of the 8 I have that will get used today? The qualification is devalued because I have yet to hear of anyone that isn't working in a shop after completing it hence why I said it was worthless.



See my point above, in the industry more people value the qualification from Gurteen/Athlone but hey I know nothing.

Knowing a bit about the "yard" she frequents then yeah I do think it is unbelievable. She is a shyster with no teaching qualifications yet has taught at least one person I know off. Then swans about on here as some sort of all knowing seer.

I guess now that will be me banned as the clique will circle the wagons and protect the "superstar"!

MOD

Justmooching - Wooaaahhhh, from what I can see on this thread, you appear to be attacking one poster in particular for whatever reason. From what I can see, it looks like you are trying to bring something real life onto a thread in After Hours.
Please refrain from doing this as it is neigh allowed.


FYI - I used Wooooaaahhhh above as I believe that translates from Horse to English as 'stop'.

Ave Sodalis

Justmooching wrote:

Can't afford a horse. Right you are I wonder which one of the 8 I have that will get used today? The qualification is devalued because I have yet to hear of anyone that isn't working in a shop after completing it hence why I said it was worthless.

I also don't know a single person with 8 horses who would have the foggiest idea what I've done, or where I've been... in fact, there's not a single person in Donegal that would know, not even the owner of the aforementioned yard... so you're just talking out of your backside.

FarmersMarket

Dougal: So I was up on this oul' fella Ted. Sure he must have been at least eighty. Now I was whipping for about an hour him but being honest I couldn't get much of a response of him, now Ted.

Ted: You do realise this visual image will haunt me for eternity, Dougal?

Dougal: Yeah, I know. It's great, isn't it?