UPDATED: Buses not to be banned from College Green

LXFlyer

KD345 wrote: »

It really is hard to understand.

Take the 46a northbound as an example, it potentially will need to cross the Luas tracks at Stephen's Green, the bottom of Dawson Street, Pearse Sreeet Garda Station, Westmoreland Street, O'Connell Street (red line) and finally at Parnell Square. That's 6 points with priority for frequent trams which have the potential to add extra time to the bus route. There will also be additional pedestrian crossings along these stretches which will add delays.

Dublin City Council seriously need to improve bus travel in Dublin. It's all very well having a good QBC running along the N11 but it means nothing if passengers have to endure a winding tour of the city centre just to get across the town. Bus passenger numbers are rising and the fleet is increasing in size. Every effort needs to be made to make bus travel attractive.

Personally, having thought about this further, I think that this is a load of hot air from Owen Keegan. I would remain of the opinion that the section between Dawson Street and Grafton Street can still be shared between LUAS and buses from Leeson Street (Rathmines routes will remain operating via Georges Street and Camden Street).


There's not going to be any bus stops between D'Olier Street and Nassau Street southbound, and between Dawson Street and Westmoreland Street northbound, so the only thing that will slow down buses will be traffic lights.


I really don't see why the status quo southbound can't be maintained, and the Leeson Street routes northbound reverting to Nassau Street and Grafton Street albeit with trams getting priority. At the very least I think that the core routes (11, 46a, 39a, 145 and Xpresso) should share space northbound with the trams - the other routes (37, 38/a/b/d, 39 and 70) could in theory re-route via Merrion Square.


Buses would not be crossing over both the northbound and southbound LUAS lines, just staying on one and slotting in between trams.


Not routing buses via Dawson Street northbound and Nassau Street southbound would create a very large hole in the network in the city centre and would be a very retrograde step in terms of public transport provision there.

LXFlyer

Marcusm wrote: »

There is limited need outside the operational hours; it should be lifted for access and/or deliveries. Otherwise, the best way to educate is to exclude completely.

Trams will be operating from 05:00 to 00:30 (leaving the terminal stop) which means in practice that there will probably be trams passing through the city centre between 05:00 and 01:00.

That is a very small window to leave open, and frankly I don't see any point in doing so. It just creates confusion as the current bus gate does with some motorists just continuing to ignore it.

LXFlyer

Marcusm wrote: »

It was such an idiotic comment that I assume it must have eliminated what little credibility he had left. If it is the case that the frequency of the cross city Luas will impact this badly on cross city buses then it should have been properly considered at the planning stage to commence diversions of affected routes now before the laying of tracks - realistically it should have been sorted before any of the works started. Indeed it may have been fully considered in which case he is even worse than I thought, is uninformed about one of the most disruptive projects in HIS city!

It should have been an integral part of the planning process.

This is fundamental, and given that the bus routes concerned will carry more people combined than the LUAS, you would think that it should have been investigated in detail by ABP.

I don't see how this could possibly not be a major consideration in terms of whether planning permission would be granted and it's a disgrace that we now hear these concerns being raised at this stage.

LXFlyer

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Agreed. How are you supposed to get around after 12 in the city of they go ahead with an all out ban.

The same way cars will get around during the rest of the day?

strandroad

lxflyer wrote: »

The same way cars will get around during the rest of the day?

Only easier, because there will be no other traffic...

Spanish Eyes

Well I have said it before and I will say it now again...

When the DCC Manager actually lives in, and experiences the city day to day with all its faults and failings, that is the day this city will be sorted.

Should be a minimum requirement for the job IMV.

Carawaystick

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Well I have said it before and I will say it now again...

When the DCC Manager actually lives in, and experiences the city day to day with all its faults and failings, that is the day this city will be sorted.

It won't fix it, as the corpo have no power to run PT, or build any more advanced PT infrastructure than bus stops...

But It might help in some ways.



I still think, given the splitting of the tram lines, one or both should have been routed through Trinity. It's a huge roadblock on South/North communications in Dublin, as is Temple Bar, and to a lesser extent Guinnessess and the Phoenix park, which at least has one underground public transit route, albeit underused.

monument

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Well I have said it before and I will say it now again...

When the DCC Manager actually lives in, and experiences the city day to day with all its faults and failings, that is the day this city will be sorted.

Should be a minimum requirement for the job IMV.

Where does Keegan live? I mean the general area and not his exact address or anything.

Marcusm

lxflyer wrote: »

Trams will be operating from 05:00 to 00:30 (leaving the terminal stop) which means in practice that there will probably be trams passing through the city centre between 05:00 and 01:00.

That is a very small window to leave open, and frankly I don't see any point in doing so. It just creates confusion as the current bus gate does with some motorists just continuing to ignore it.

I think you have misunderstood me; I was supportive of the 24/7 prohibition. I think there is little need for private cars to access that portion outside of Luas hours and to permit it would cause uncertainty.

LXFlyer

Marcusm wrote: »

I think you have misunderstood me; I was supportive of the 24/7 prohibition. I think there is little need for private cars to access that portion outside of Luas hours and to permit it would cause uncertainty.

I was agreeing with you!!


Just reinforcing your point!

snickerpuss

I was hoping the 15 would be back to some kind of normal route. If you work around Westland Row/up Pearse Street/Merrion Square there are no Northside buses. You have to walk to Central Bank. It's a bit of a pain and at least the 15 used to go down Dawson St but now every evening Dame St is jammed. You can hardly get up or down the narrow paths at 5.30. The spot at Abercrombie and Fitch is the worst.

LXFlyer

snickerpuss wrote: »

I was hoping the 15 would be back to some kind of normal route. If you work around Westland Row/up Pearse Street/Merrion Square there are no Northside buses. You have to walk to Central Bank. It's a bit of a pain and at least the 15 used to go down Dawson St but now every evening Dame St is jammed. You can hardly get up or down the narrow paths at 5.30. The spot at Abercrombie and Fitch is the worst.

Why would you walk to the Central Bank? Eden Quay, Busaras or opposite Connolly Station are all closer. Also, the 27X serves Merrion Square.

Highly unlikely that the Rathmines routes will revert back - there simply would not be the roadspace available.

That being said, I personally think one Rathmines route should operate via Westland Row and Pearse Street after the LUAS starts up.

snickerpuss

lxflyer wrote: »

Why would you walk to the Central Bank? Eden Quay, Busaras or opposite Connolly Station is closer. Also, the 27X serves Merrion Square.

Highly unlikely that the Rathmines routes will revert back - there simply would not be the roadspace available.

That being said, I personally think one Rathmines route should operate via Westland Row and Pearse Street after the LUAS starts up.

It just seems odd to me to have to walk for 15/20 min to get a bus to the Northside when you work directly in the city centre. There are only two 27Xs in the evenings one of which is arrives at 5.30 and the other at 5.45 so doesn't always suit if you need to stay even a few minutes late at work.

LXFlyer

snickerpuss wrote: »

It just seems odd to me to have to walk for 15/20 min to get a bus to the Northside when you work directly in the city centre. There are only two 27Xs in the evenings one of which is arrives at 5.30 and the other at 5.45 so doesn't always suit if you need to stay even a few minutes late at work.

Unfortunately there can't be buses in every direction from every part of the city.


There's plenty of other parts of the city that aren't linked up.


Perhaps in the future some of the Howth Road routes may extend south of the river.

nowecant

snickerpuss wrote: »

I was hoping the 15 would be back to some kind of normal route. If you work around Westland Row/up Pearse Street/Merrion Square there are no Northside buses. You have to walk to Central Bank. It's a bit of a pain and at least the 15 used to go down Dawson St but now every evening Dame St is jammed. You can hardly get up or down the narrow paths at 5.30. The spot at Abercrombie and Fitch is the worst.

The number 4 picks up under the rail bridge on Westland Row

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/4/

Amirani

Carawaystick wrote: »

I still think, given the splitting of the tram lines, one or both should have been routed through Trinity. It's a huge roadblock on South/North communications in Dublin, as is Temple Bar, and to a lesser extent Guinnessess and the Phoenix park, which at least has one underground public transit route, albeit underused.

No space available to route through Trinity.

cgcsb

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

There are lots of buslanes throughout Dublin that have 24 hr restriction. Even though buses finish in the main at midnight or thereabouts and don't start until 630.am or so.

It is prepping. Getting people used to the idea that the city centre is for PT, cyclists and pedestrians.

You know, those who have been neglected for SO LONG now!

Yeahlots of prepping I'm sure we'll have a 24h service any day now.

LXFlyer

nowecant wrote: »

The number 4 picks up under the rail bridge on Westland Row

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/4/

Also routes 11, 37, 38/a/b, 39, 39a, 46a, 70 and several departures on the 120 all serve the area mentioned previously and travel to the north side.

Hardly "no" buses serving the north side.

Idbatterim

It's just desk chairs on the Titanic, bus based system is wildly insufficient in the city this size, especially with its narrow historical layout, two pitiful tram lines nothwithstanding. It's like wanting to change the laws of physics - there's no space on the surface!

I agree! Why in gods name didn't they just extend the LUAS green line to Airport and onto swords with the metro north routing (this would have connected the lines)? Simply have it surface in Ranelagh, that is the long term plan anyway. Metro north is light rail, like luas, just highly segregated trams, that are a bit longer than current ones... Actually the new ones just ordered for cross city will be 54.6 metres long, the proposed ones for metro north revised are 60m...

bk

Idbatterim wrote: »

I agree! Why in gods name didn't they just extend the LUAS green line to Airport and onto swords with the metro north routing (this would have connected the lines)? Simply have it surface in Ranelagh, that is the long term plan anyway. Metro north is light rail, like luas, just highly segregated trams, that are a bit longer than current ones... Actually the new ones just ordered for cross city will be 54.6 metres long, the proposed ones for metro north revised are 60m...

I've said before that I think they made serious mistake calling it Metro North and pushing the underground aspect of it.

I think it would have greater public support if they had called it Luas North and underplayed the underground aspect of it, instead just selling it as a longer, faster Luas line that happened to go underground for part of it's route.

Everyone loves Luas and it would likely have been harder for politicians, to cancel/delay a Metro/Luas North.

monument

Idbatterim wrote: »

Actually the new ones just ordered for cross city will be 54.6 metres long, the proposed ones for metro north revised are 60m...

For the shorter trams and a lack of capacity that brings, the revised metro should not make it past planning.

Alan_P

Amirani wrote: »

No space available to route through Trinity.

And Trinity is sacrosanct. Not because it's where all the dorters go, because it's the most significant collection of architecture in the state. Some of which has no foundations.

Idbatterim

For the shorter trams and a lack of capacity that brings, the revised metro should not make it past planning.

I agree, the "savings" for 60 v 90m platforms is E80,000,000! I.e. so little so laughable, its actually insane even for this country! So for a 2 billion project, capacity is limited by a third for 4% of the total spend? Also a huge amount of that extra 80 million will end up back in the governments pockets anyway!!! Argh!!!!! :eek::mad:

Their lying and using pessimistic figures is laughable? Shouldnt we be chopping and changing again now a few months later? An example, Dublin Airport has 16% growth this year, bringing it to 25,000,000 and I have read on the aviation forum, some inside sources reckon it will be similar next year, bringing numbers to 30,000,000 or so!!!

We are talking about for many underground stations, what will the cost of rectifying that be?! Will it even be possible?

That 60 v 90m , is more shortsighted than anything than has been dreamt up here before. Where is all the new development in dublin going to take place? north and west dublin, wouldnt it make sense to put in a system that can handle major development close to the city, rather than massive unsustainable commutes again?!

LXFlyer

I'm glad to say that Dublin Bus have reacted strongly to Owen Keegan's statement - hopefully some common sense will prevail.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/buses-must-be-allowed-back-to-college-green-says-dublin-bus-1.2478914

Schadenfreudia

AlekSmart wrote: »

Arnotts.
Ilac
Marlborough Street
Jervis Street
Irish Life Centre
Parnell Centre
Setanta
Brown Thomas
Dawson Street........

And how will the City centre fare as a major shopping area if there is a total ban on cars?

You mentioned the tumble-weed in the Mausoleum (aka Dun Laoghaire Town Centre) - that results largely from the de facto squeezing out of private transport.

strandroad

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

And how will the City centre fare as a major shopping area if there is a total ban on cars?

You mentioned the tumble-weed in the Mausoleum (aka Dun Laoghaire Town Centre) - that results largely from the de facto squeezing out of private transport.

In fairness it results mostly from the lack of big modern shops and no evening trading. There's no way to compete with shopping centres if you don't have what the shoppers want when they want it...

LXFlyer

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

And how will the City centre fare as a major shopping area if there is a total ban on cars?

You mentioned the tumble-weed in the Mausoleum (aka Dun Laoghaire Town Centre) - that results largely from the de facto squeezing out of private transport.

But there isn't going to be a total ban on cars - it's just a ban from using College Green. All of the car parks should still be accessible.

Ok, car drivers may have a slightly longer route, but they should still be able to access all of the car parks.

The simple fact is that allowing cars, buses, taxis and trams across College Green will not work once the trams start operating - it's not physically possible.

Marcusm

lxflyer wrote: »

But there isn't going to be a total ban on cars - it's just a ban from using College Green. All of the car parks should still be accessible.

Ok, car drivers may have a slightly longer route, but they should still be able to access all of the car parks.

The simple fact is that allowing cars, buses, taxis and trams across College Green will not work once the trams start operating - it's not physically possible.

I'm a car user when in Dublin, haven't been on a bus or Luas for years and have used 5 of the above car parks in the past three months plus others like Fleet St, St Andrews etc. That being said, I fully agree with you that I cannot see any efficient ways for cars to use College Green when Luas arrives. However, what will be required is more efficient use of some the side streets and someone needs to get planning on that incl more efficient enforcement.

Schadenfreudia

mhge wrote: »

In fairness it results mostly from the lack of big modern shops and no evening trading. There's no way to compete with shopping centres if you don't have what the shoppers want when they want it...

Well, that's a chicken and egg situation! The Dundrum and Carrickmines-type centres won't touch anywhere without good car access.

Schadenfreudia

lxflyer wrote: »

But there isn't going to be a total ban on cars - it's just a ban from using College Green. All of the car parks should still be accessible.

Ok, car drivers may have a slightly longer route, but they should still be able to access all of the car parks.

The simple fact is that allowing cars, buses, taxis and trams across College Green will not work once the trams start operating - it's not physically possible.

Don't disagree with you - I was responding to Alex who I understand to be calling for the elimination of cars from the centre.....

Of course the real problem is that since the Luas lines were completed in 2004 the only major city centre public transport initiative is the worthwhile, but relatively mickey mouse, Luas Cross city which will open 14 years after the original two unconnected lines.