UPDATED: Buses not to be banned from College Green

bk

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

And how will the City centre fare as a major shopping area if there is a total ban on cars?

Fantastically well. Remember currently only 19% of shoppers in Dublin City Center got there by car!

Improved public transport and walking infrastructure is going to make it even more attractive for the 81% of people who got there by walking, cycling and public transport.

Just like it is the normal in any city center throughout Europe.

Anyway, no one is banning cars from the city center, simply redirecting the routes they can take.

LXFlyer

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Don't disagree with you - I was responding to Alex who I understand to be calling for the elimination of cars from the centre.....

Of course the real problem is that since the Luas lines were completed in 2004 the only major city centre public transport initiative is the worthwhile, but relatively mickey mouse, Luas Cross city which will open 14 years after the original two unconnected lines.

But again you're falling into the trap - this really isn't about connecting the LUAS lines, but rather about creating new journey opportunities along the new Green line extension through the city and across to Broombridge.

There will also be in 2016, the new services through the Phoenix Park tunnel and a 10 minute DART service.

There have also been all the Dublin Bus route mergers during Network Direct, and there certainly have been new bus routes introduced since 2004 through the city centre.

What has not happened has been any major effort to redirect car traffic away from the city centre, and the DART Underground and Metro North projects have both been effectively shelved by our politicians, something that the city will have to live with for some considerable time to come.

Qualitymark

Here are Dublin's trams in 1922:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ad/Dublin_1922-23_Map_Suburbs_MatureTrams_wFaresTimes_Trains_EarlyBus_Canals_pubv2.jpg

http://comeheretome.com/2012/07/24/a-quick-look-at-dublin-trams-and-no-not-the-luas/

There was fury when they changed from the pictorial destination boards (Kenilworth Square was a white square, Dalkey a green shamrock) because it was felt that literacy was high enough that Dubliners could read nameplates instead.

It looks like a good skeleton for tram coverage of the city and suburbs. Then, everyone took trams and buses or cycled or walked, and the private car was rare and only for important business.

strandroad

Ah to have them back, with the city area underground... and some extra ring routes!

Carawaystick

Alan_P wrote: »

And Trinity is sacrosanct. Not because it's where all the dorters go, because it's the most significant collection of architecture in the state. Some of which has no foundations.

In the west side of the cricket field, across new square, out the lane to Pearce staged a station

They built a high speed rail line 18" from the Sagreda Familia walls,

dublinman1990

Idbatterim wrote: »

I agree, the "savings" for 60 v 90m platforms is E80,000,000! I.e. so little so laughable, its actually insane even for this country! So for a 2 billion project, capacity is limited by a third for 4% of the total spend? Also a huge amount of that extra 80 million will end up back in the governments pockets anyway!!! Argh!!!!! :eek::mad:

Their lying and using pessimistic figures is laughable? Shouldnt we be chopping and changing again now a few months later? An example, Dublin Airport has 16% growth this year, bringing it to 25,000,000 and I have read on the aviation forum, some inside sources reckon it will be similar next year, bringing numbers to 30,000,000 or so!!!

We are talking about for many underground stations, what will the cost of rectifying that be?! Will it even be possible?

That 60 v 90m , is more shortsighted than anything than has been dreamt up here before. Where is all the new development in dublin going to take place? north and west dublin, wouldnt it make sense to put in a system that can handle major development close to the city, rather than massive unsustainable commutes again?!

I agree the "saving" of €80 million is bloody stupid and an huge insult to the intelligence of the Dublin electorate in particular.

When MN was having the potential to be built via it's railway order; building it at a length of 90m was intended to future-proofing the project for the medium & long term to make itself a useful stand alone success to further alleviate extra costs to it in the future.

The re-routing of bus routes around College Green should have been considered at the earliest opportunity available to let people know in Dublin that when this project is being built and completed; an essential contingency plan for bus routes around College Green should have given people who live and work there some reassurance about how the bus network was to operate in the future.

DCC, the NTA and the DTTAS just cannot change bus routes in years to come in a carte blanche fashion when LUAS CC comes fully into operation next year. This project is affecting every bus route coming into the southern artery of the city in a more condensed fashion then years earlier. All of the public bodies involved in this project are going to have to think of ways to reassure members of the public, through various public meetings, that the bus network especially through the southern part of the city will work in minimal distruption as possible.

This change in College Green does not just affect Dublin Bus in particular. It affects Bus Eireann & smaller private operators to a degree that run routes around that area of Dublin in which they are trying to make a profit for their business.

Schadenfreudia

bk wrote: »

Fantastically well. Remember currently only 19% of shoppers in Dublin City Center got there by car!

It's the % of spending that keeps shops afloat and I'm sure I heard a City Centre Business Association person on the radio pointing out that a much higher % of spending comes from car drivers (can't recall the exact %).

Improved public transport and walking infrastructure is going to make it even more attractive for the 81% of people who got there by walking, cycling and public transport.

And when is this "improved public transport" going to arrive? They've been talking about it all my life - reality is that PT is worse than it was 40 years ago - it simply hasn't kept pace with the growth of the city.

Just like it is the normal in any city center throughout Europe.

"Normal" European cities have proper public transport; metros, connected networks, buses that run on time - stuff like that.

The decision to ditch MN (where the Green Line would go underground at Stephen's Green) in favour of a cheap, obstructive, low capacity Luas cross city is a classic example the lack of European "normality" in Dublin.

Schadenfreudia

lxflyer wrote: »

But again you're falling into the trap - this really isn't about connecting the LUAS lines, but rather about creating new journey opportunities along the new Green line extension through the city and across to Broombridge.

The trap they've created for those who'd use PT is that they've put it overground through a central choke-point; they've created one "new" journey opportunity at the expense on many other existing higher-capacity opportunities.

There will also be in 2016, the new services through the Phoenix Park tunnel and a 10 minute DART service.

The PPT could have been done 20 years ago, back when we actually had 10 minute DART services!

There have also been all the Dublin Bus route mergers during Network Direct, and there certainly have been new bus routes introduced since 2004 through the city centre.

Sounds like less bus routes to me?

What has not happened has been any major effort to redirect car traffic away from the city centre, and the DART Underground and Metro North projects have both been effectively shelved by our politicians, something that the city will have to live with for some considerable time to come.

Indeed; and a consequences is that we will also have to live with car traffic as a much more important component in the City Centre than many other European cities.

The Keegan approach for the past 20 years has been - ban/block the cars and somehow everything will work out :mad:

So today we have empty bus lanes in many suburbs; unenforced bus lanes in the city centre - and gridlock everywhere - with a decent 19th century metro system as distant as ever....

Cookie_Monster

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

It's the % of spending that keeps shops afloat and I'm sure I heard a City Centre Business Association person on the radio pointing out that a much higher % of spending comes from car drivers (can't recall the exact %).

I'm fairly sure I've read on here several time that cyclists end up spending the most per capita in the city centre.

Schadenfreudia

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I'm fairly sure I've read on here several time that cyclists end up spending the most per capita in the city centre.

You might have read it here but I'm fairly sure I, for one, haven't heard it anywhere else. Any references?

Point is no shopping area can afford to lose north of 20% of their revenue in a business (retail) with margins ranging from 3 to 6%.

I suspect that if we sort out the cafes and fast food joints from the department stores we'll find the "car" percentage is closer to half than 20%.

Never saw a sofa or a family weekly grocery brought home on a bike.

markpb

With the exception of Mr Bean, I've never seen anyone drive a sofa home on a car. Are you or your stereotypes a fictional British comedy character?

I have, on the other hand, bought king beds and kitchen units and then hopped on a bus. I have bought 40" TV's and then cycled home. I did my weekly shopping for years and got a taxi home. Child Services didn't remove my child from my custody because I didn't own a car.

Schadenfreudia

markpb wrote: »

With the exception of Mr Bean, I've never seen anyone drive a sofa home on a car. Are you or your stereotypes a fictional British comedy character?

That's a good point; what about the weekly shopping?

I've never had a TV that wasn't driven home by car, btw. But then I've never had anything other than a coffee bought in the City centre in the past 20 years!

Dundrum SC and Carrickmines RP have everything you'd ever want bar the pollution and the gridlock

Seriously though; the Dublin PT system is utter crap by "European standards" - and that is because we won't invest in any sort of major engineering projects.

markpb

Schadenfreudia wrote:

Seriously though; the Dublin PT system is utter crap by "European standards" - and that is because we won't invest in any sort of major engineering projects.

I'm not sure where it started but there's a psychological block in the Irish mentality that sees all public services as rubbish therefore further investment is to be resisted. Since there's no investment, the service continues to be poor so the belief becomes the truth.

Any time anyone proposes improving public transport on Dublin, it is opposed on two grounds. Either it's a waste of money/too expensive or it impedes motorists. Metro North - too expensive. Dart Underground - too expensive. Bus lanes - poor motorists. Bus priority - woe is me, poor motorists. Luas construction - too expensive and pity the motorist.

Until we break this cycle, things are not going to improve. Until then motorists will be told they're being penalised, everyone will feel sorry for the impoverished retailers and the M50 will continue to be a car park.

Schadenfreudia

markpb wrote: »

Until then motorists will be told they're being penalised, everyone will feel sorry for the impoverished retailers and the M50 will continue to be a car park.

As a daily M50 user; and a decades long suburban resident - the M50 is very far from a "car-park" - compared to the clogged local roads inside the motorway it is magnificent most of the time.

Inside the M50 we need Public Transport - the solution isn't to block/ban cars first and imagine a solution will magically materialise (the Keegan/Irish Times fantasy) - the solution is to construct a new metro and also the hard engineering of dedicated priority bus and tram routes.

And then, and only then, worry about containing cars.

markpb

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Inside the M50 we need Public Transport - the solution isn't to block/ban cars first and imagine a solution will magically materialise (the Keegan/Irish Times fantasy) - the solution is to construct a new metro and also the hard engineering of dedicated priority bus and tram routes.

I'll be working for another 30 years and I'll eat my hat if there's a metro operational in that time. There's no stomach for it for all the reasons I mentioned already.

That leaves us with tinkering around the edges and, in the city centre, that means road capacity for private vehicles will be impacted. There's simply no way additional bus or tram capacity can be added without that happening.

Schadenfreudia

markpb wrote: »

I'll be working for another 30 years and I'll eat my hat if there's a metro operational in that time. There's no stomach for it for all the reasons I mentioned already.

That leaves us with tinkering around the edges and, in the city centre, that means road capacity for private vehicles will be impacted. There's simply no way additional bus or tram capacity can be added without that happening.

And so outer suburbia will continue to expand, the retail action will continue to migrate to Liffey Valley, Dundrum and beyond and we'll all whine about it and argue why!

We are making a choice here; suburbia and sprawl rather than a "European" city. Don't blame cars/motorists.

And, ironically, those who whine most about the consequences of this choice (the Irish Times and the chattering classes as a prime example) are the very same people who oppose everything that might facilitate a "European" city

The failure to provide the €150 million in compulsory purchase funds over the next 5 years in order to keep DU alive - something which went virtually unmarked by the chattering/whining classes - was, to me, the final proof that we are either not serious about creating a modern European city or are incapable of it.

Either way - the problem is not one of building too many roads (!), or cars or motorists - it is failure to build the sort of PT systems that were installed in equivalent cities between 50 and 100 years ago - systems that keep expanding with those cities.

And yes, they generally also build more motorways in the suburban hinterland than we do.

MrMorooka

Carawaystick wrote: »

In the west side of the cricket field, across new square, out the lane to Pearce staged a station

I really don't see how this route could work at all. The Museum building is in the way, and you can't go in the gap between it and the Berkeley library.

Unless you're proposing coming in from opposite Kilkenny's, around the east side of the Museum building and diagonally across New Square?

AlekSmart

MrMorooka wrote: »

I really don't see how this route could work at all. The Museum building is in the way, and you can't go in the gap between it and the Berkeley library.

Unless you're proposing coming in from opposite Kilkenny's, around the east side of the Museum building and diagonally across New Square?

More likely,the suggestion is to go beneath all of these ?

MrMorooka

AlekSmart wrote: »

More likely,the suggestion is to go beneath all of these ?

Perhaps. The Berkeley and the Museum building both have basements though. Realistically any surface, or sub-surface route that is not a deep bored tunnel, route through TCD will never happen.

markpb

AlekSmart wrote: »

More likely,the suggestion is to go beneath all of these ?

There's a foolish suggestion if every there was one. It's hard enough to get a metro built in this country without Trinity complaining that their historic buildings might fall into a hole in the ground.

Banjoxed

markpb wrote: »

There's a foolish suggestion if every there was one. It's hard enough to get a metro built in this country without Trinity complaining that their historic buildings might fall into a hole in the ground.

Actually lets do nothing, like we normally do. Or do it in a muted or half-assed way, appeasing special interests. That's the Irish way.

MrMorooka

Since when is it appeasing special interests to not demolish beautiful, old, historical, actively used buildings in a campus of 15000 students? Let's have some perspective here.

The fact of the matter is, DU and MN plans already exist and have already avoided the Trinity issue. They would both dramatically improve public transport in the Dublin area. The issue is that they were cancelled by the current government. These kinds of discussion we get into about hypothetical transport plans are just distractions from the fact that there were reasonable and accepted plans already, they just weren't acted on.

Schadenfreudia

MrMorooka wrote: »

The fact of the matter is, DU and MN plans already exist and have already avoided the Trinity issue. They would both dramatically improve public transport in the Dublin area. The issue is that they were cancelled by the current government. These kinds of discussion we get into about hypothetical transport plans are just distractions from the fact that there were reasonable and accepted plans already, they just weren't acted on.

Spot on.

Waffling about all sorts of alternatives/options when there were (are) excellent plans in existence - plans formulated after vast planning, consultation and cost - is meat and drink to the politicians who don't actually want to commit any resources to solving Dublin's PT deficit.

Banjoxed

MrMorooka wrote: »

Since when is it appeasing special interests to not demolish beautiful, old, historical, actively used buildings in a campus of 15000 students? Let's have some perspective here.

The fact of the matter is, DU and MN plans already exist and have already avoided the Trinity issue. They would both dramatically improve public transport in the Dublin area. The issue is that they were cancelled by the current government. These kinds of discussion we get into about hypothetical transport plans are just distractions from the fact that there were reasonable and accepted plans already, they just weren't acted on.

With you on both DU and MN. Scandalous that they have been back burnered. Irish decision making on transport reminds me of a very smug man I used to work for, who described Vatican decision making on any issue. "Put it away for a hundred years, and if it's an issue then, consider action".

The tram plan however, has been there since the 1990s, and canvassed alternatives to it were deliberate spoilers in my view. I have kept cuttings from the late 1990s and the hysterical guff that one, now deceased, campaigner who noisily opposed Luas would be hilarious - if it hadn't contributed to the separate line decision that we are paying for now.

The idea that there is a bottomless pit of money for any road (and of course, compo for the fortunate land owners and toll operators) while there is only a tiny fixed pot for rail is rubbish. Rail decisions aren't an either/or. This job should have been done twenty years ago and any possible delays are both pernicious and pointless. The art of the possible is needed here.

Schadenfreudia

Banjoxed wrote: »

The tram plan however, has been there since the 1990s, and canvassed alternatives to it were deliberate spoilers in my view. I have kept cuttings from the late 1990s and the hysterical guff that one, now deceased, campaigner who noisily opposed Luas would be hilarious - if it hadn't contributed to the separate line decision that we are paying for now.

You refer to Garret The Good, who probably believed what he wrote - and some of the latest debate would indicate he wasn't totally wrong. How is it possible issues he raised 20 years ago are now re-surfacing when BDX is half-built?

One of the proposals was that the Green Line would go underground at St Stephen's Green. It came to be known as MN and it was by far the best solution for connecting the Airport and joining the Green and Red lines.

If anything, it is Luas Cross City that is the spoiler

(Certainly if it is taken as some sort of alternative to MN)

Idbatterim

"Normal" European cities have proper public transport; metros, connected networks, buses that run on time - stuff like that.

The decision to ditch MN (where the Green Line would go underground at Stephen's Green) in favour of a cheap, obstructive, low capacity Luas cross city is a classic example the lack of European "normality" in Dublin.

I have read a very detailed report on this, according to this report, even with MN, they would still support Luas cross city. the long term plan I believe, is to have a tunnel starting after the ranelagh stop, linking up with the metro north revised...

I am just back from Cologne, a similar sized city to here, if ever I needed reminding of what a disgrace our public transport system is, Cologne gave it to me!

One of the big differences between here and Germany, they dont have the outrageous welfare system we do here and such a ridiculous number not paying in direct income taxes! No wonder everything infrastructure and service related is appalling, the two aforementioned reasons are problem number 1 in my opinion...

Schadenfreudia

Idbatterim wrote: »

One of the big differences between here and Germany, they dont have the outrageous welfare system we do here and such a ridiculous number not paying in direct income taxes! No wonder everything infrastructure and service related is appalling, the two aforementioned reasons are problem number 1 in my opinion...

Doesn't compute!

Germany has a lower GDP per capita than Ireland and a similar percent of that lower GDP is captured by the State.

They don't waste as much on dysfunctional Health Services or Public Sector pay rates.

Welfare spending as a source of difference is way down the list....or was till they decided to solve the global refugee problem

magicbastarder

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Germany has a lower GDP per capita than Ireland and a similar percent of that lower GDP is captured by the State.

maybe i'm missing something here, but GDP is not 'captured by the state'.

germany's GNP (now rechristened GNI, it seems) per capita is higher than ireland's.

cgcsb

Idbatterim wrote: »

I have read a very detailed report on this, according to this report, even with MN, they would still support Luas cross city. the long term plan I believe, is to have a tunnel starting after the ranelagh stop, linking up with the metro north revised...

I am just back from Cologne, a similar sized city to here, if ever I needed reminding of what a disgrace our public transport system is, Cologne gave it to me!

One of the big differences between here and Germany, they dont have the outrageous welfare system we do here and such a ridiculous number not paying in direct income taxes! No wonder everything infrastructure and service related is appalling, the two aforementioned reasons are problem number 1 in my opinion...

Whatever about welfare, Germany generally doesn't piss money away. The NTA has just completed another rebranding exercise including TV adverts.

The RPA and NTA were set up because the existing CIÉ group wasn't fit for purpose and no govt. is prepared to shake out the old boy management and hire professionals, it's politically easier to create a new body with professionals who can deal with it separately, the PAYE worker pays twice and Jim Joe from down below gets re-elected without any hassle from unions, everyone wins. Except the Irish people of course who get less services for more money.

bruno1x

cgcsb wrote: »

The RPA and NTA were set up because the existing CIÉ group wasn't fit for purpose and no govt. is prepared to shake out the old boy management and hire professionals, it's politically easier to create a new body with professionals who can deal with it separately,

Professionals hired from what type of back grounds, professional models, footballers?
How many come from a transport background?
Don't be fooling yourself the NTA is just jobs for loyal party people, and another layer of deniability for the minister of transport.