UPDATED: Buses not to be banned from College Green

monument

Idbatterim wrote: »

I am just back from Cologne, a similar sized city to here, if ever I needed reminding of what a disgrace our public transport system is, Cologne gave it to me!

One of the big differences between here and Germany, they dont have the outrageous welfare system we do here and such a ridiculous number not paying in direct income taxes! No wonder everything infrastructure and service related is appalling, the two aforementioned reasons are problem number 1 in my opinion...

Ah right, then.

So, what you're saying is it's nothing to do with Cologne getting bombed to bits? And maybe money funded / lended to rebuild the country partly used to put some sections of their already extensive tram system underground rather than not rebuild it?

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

One of the proposals was that the Green Line would go underground at St Stephen's Green. It came to be known as MN and it was by far the best solution for connecting the Airport and joining the Green and Red lines.

If anything, it is Luas Cross City that is the spoiler

(Certainly if it is taken as some sort of alternative to MN)

Just to be clear here: Metro North and Luas Cross City were planned as standalone projects.

Them sharing a small and very central section of route is only noteworthy because too many people here seem be be oblivious to the fact metro and tram lines share such stretches in many other cities to the point of it being as common as muck.

monument

bruno1x wrote: »

cgcsb wrote: »

The RPA and NTA were set up because the existing CI group wasn't fit for purpose and no govt. is prepared to shake out the old boy management and hire professionals, it's politically easier to create a new body with professionals who can deal with it separately,

Professionals hired from what type of back grounds, professional models, footballers?
How many come from a transport background?
Don't be fooling yourself the NTA is just jobs for loyal party people, and another layer of deniability for the minister of transport.

The NTA board may not be full of transport professionals (rightly or wrongly), but trying to claim the NTA overall amounts to trolling and won't be entertained here without anything to support your claim.

-- moderator

LXFlyer

bruno1x wrote: »

Professionals hired from what type of back grounds, professional models, footballers?
How many come from a transport background?
Don't be fooling yourself the NTA is just jobs for loyal party people, and another layer of deniability for the minister of transport.

I think you're over-simplifying this.


The political element at the NTA are the board appointees, who make strategic decisions.


The senior staff, who actually do the day-to-day work in the organisation are virtually all transport professionals, rather than the previous situation at the Department of Transport, where they were all civil servants with no experience in the industry.

bruno1x

lxflyer wrote: »

I think you're over-simplifying this.


The political element at the NTA are the board appointees, who make strategic decisions.


The senior staff, who actually do the day-to-day work in the organisation are virtually all transport professionals, rather than the previous situation at the Department of Transport, where they were all civil servants with no experience in the industry.

The chain of command. those at the bottom must follow orders from those above them.
So the staff take orders from the board appointed who take orders from the politicians. Whats hard about that to understand?

LXFlyer

bruno1x wrote: »

The chain of command. those at the bottom must follow orders from those above them.
So the staff take orders from the board appointed who take orders from the politicians. Whats hard about that to understand?

You clearly don't understand the role of a board of directors.

They don't instruct or give orders to staff.

They are responsible for the strategic direction, but not the day-to-day running if the organisation - that is the job of management, who are virtually all transport professionals.

bruno1x

lxflyer wrote: »

You clearly don't understand the role of a board of directors.

They don't instruct or give orders to staff.

They are responsible for the strategic direction, but not the day-to-day running if the organisation - that is the job of management, who are virtually all transport professionals.

Responsible for the strategic direction, who do you think tells them what this is?
The NTA, just like the HSE is another layer of protection for politicians, they can blame every wrong on them.

LXFlyer

bruno1x wrote: »

Responsible for the strategic direction, who do you think tells them what this is?
The NTA, just like the HSE is another layer of protection for politicians, they can blame every wrong on them.

You're still missing the point - the day to day running of the organisation is in the hands of transport professionals - which you were stating was not the case.

Carawaystick

Idbatterim wrote: »

One of the big differences between here and Germany, they dont have the outrageous welfare system we do here and such a ridiculous number not paying in direct income taxes!

Germany has a much more outrageous welfare system where the states take some of your income to give it to believers in sky faeries so they build gold plated mansions

Also they let their infrastructure rust away

irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/germany-s-infrastructure-rusts-as-politicians-fiddle-1.2036328

Also the new airport in Berlin is suffering flight delays, of 6 years or so
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Brandenburg_Airport

Cookie_Monster

lxflyer wrote: »

You're still missing the point - the day to day running of the organisation is in the hands of transport professionals - which you were stating was not the case.

the term 'transport professional' is a pretty meaningless term to throw around. Zero point in having someone there qualified in logistics and shipping for example or a civil engineer specialising in roads.

The NTA remit covers neither but both are clearly transport professionals. I also wouldn't want the NTA to be run by a transport professional, needs to be run by someone capable of running a major company, transport or not. Nothing in any transport orientated degree exactly qualifies you to run a company. It should be staffed by appropriate transport professionals for sure but not run by them.

bruno1x

lxflyer wrote: »

You're still missing the point - the day to day running of the organisation is in the hands of transport professionals - which you were stating was not the case.

Who are these professionals that you speak off?
Does anyone have clue who they are and what their transport background is?

monument

Posts questioning moderation deleted. Against my better judgement I did not do so at first and we ended up with 4-5 posts directly discussing moderation. So, we'll stick to the rules.

Read the charter everyone.

-- moderator

Schadenfreudia

magicbastarder wrote: »

maybe i'm missing something here, but GDP is not 'captured by the state'.

You are. I'm clearly referring to all State revenues in taxes (however named) as a % of national GDP.

germany's GNP (now rechristened GNI, it seems) per capita is higher than ireland's.

I said GDP, not GNP or even GNI.

Irish GDP per capita is significantly higher than Germany's, roughly €51k v €46.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

Schadenfreudia

monument wrote: »

Just to be clear here: Metro North and Luas Cross City were planned as standalone projects.

Them sharing a small and very central section of route is only noteworthy because too many people here seem be be oblivious to the fact metro and tram lines share such stretches in many other cities to the point of it being as common as muck.

In a city where PT infrastructure investment is nowhere near "European norms" I find the notion that the existence of Luas Cross City will not provide a handy political excuse to not proceed with MN dubious, to say the least.

Regarding " being as common as muck", the same could be said of metro systems - of which Dublin has absolutely none - despite decades of waffle and planning and debating and "promises".

Just to be clear here: Metro North and Luas Cross City were planned as standalone projects.

Eventually, but my memory of the early days was that MN was originally to function as the link between the two Luas lines; the current MN came later.

monument

Ireland's GDP has rocketed since the 1990.

Transport infrastructure is a long term thing and Germany was a lot richer than us for years.

In recent boom years more could have been spent on trams, metros etc, but wenh we were spending the new-found money the priority was road.

Schadenfreudia

Like many countries in the West, Germany did it's public transport infrastructural heavy-lifting in the 1950s to 1970s....look at Italy or America.

But we never got around to doing it in Dublin!

And we are still way behind the curve, even as Germany gets a bit rusty.

Carawaystick wrote: »

Germany has a much more outrageous welfare system where the states take some of your income to give it to believers in sky faeries so they build gold plated mansions

We are in danger of veering way off College Green, but sheer curiosity compels me to ask what "believers in sky faeries so they build gold plated mansions" are? :eek:

Schadenfreudia

monument wrote: »

Ireland's GDP has rocketed since the 1990.

Transport infrastructure is a long term thing and Germany was a lot richer than us for years.

In recent boom years more could have been spent on trams, metros etc, but wenh we were spending the new-found money the priority was road.

Apart from a few years during the boom we spent, and are now spending, a smaller proportion of our GDP on transport infrastructure (and physical infrastructure in general) than almost any other country in the OECD - and this is especially true today.

I read that in the SPB - so I'm sure it's right

Carawaystick

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

We are in danger of veering way off College Green, but sheer curiosity compels me to ask what "believers in sky faeries so they build gold plated mansions" are? :eek:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/24/world/europe/vatican-suspends-german-bishop-known-for-spending.html?_r=0

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2474661/Bling-bishop-26million-mansion-sparked-outraged-Germany-sacked-Pope-Francis.html


Has anyone got a link to the traffic management plans for College green as it is?

LXFlyer

Carawaystick wrote: »

Has anyone got a link to the traffic management plans for College green as it is?

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/major-changes-proposed-in-dublin-city-transport-study-quays-college-green-suffolk-street-public-consultation-june-11-july-16/

http://www.dublincity.ie/TransportStudy

monument

The draft detailed part 8 designs and related reports for College Green which were rejected (or at lease the approval was postponed) by city councillors can I think only be found at the end of this article:

http://irishcycle.com/2015/11/07/confirmed-college-green-dame-st-plan-continues-mixing-buses-and-bikes/

Schadenfreudia

lxflyer wrote: »

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/major-changes-proposed-in-dublin-city-transport-study-quays-college-green-suffolk-street-public-consultation-june-11-july-16/

Spot the odd-man-out?

Dublin City Centre Transport Study proposes major changes to ensure city continues to function efficiently and accommodate future growth

• €150 million NTA investment in public transport forecast

• Public transport, cycling and pedestrian only links along North and South

• Quays and at College Green plus pedestrianisation of Suffolk Street and St. Stephen’s Green North

• Increases in public transport capacity plus implementation of city wide cycle network

New interchange hubs, bridges, coach and taxi facilities to ease city flow

:mad:

Carawaystick

lxflyer wrote: »

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/major-changes-proposed-in-dublin-city-transport-study-quays-college-green-suffolk-street-public-consultation-june-11-july-16/

http://www.dublincity.ie/TransportStudy

I'm looking for the current plans, what is in place now during the works.

There does not seem to much consideration given for cyclists looking at the rpa press releasees

LXFlyer

They're a moving feast depending upon where work is being carried out - there's nothing specific other than what's on the LUAS cross city website.

What exactly are you expecting to find?

Carawaystick

A formal plan stating the work to be done
The time it will take,
The lane changes/closures planned,
A safety statement outlining how the plan is a safe one
And a responsible person accountable for delivery of the plan

bruno1x

lxflyer wrote: »

They're a moving feast depending upon where work is being carried out - there's nothing specific other than what's on the LUAS cross city website.

What exactly are you expecting to find?

Council workers would not have the brass neck of those working on LUAS cross city, for every one man working there is at least 5 standing around doing nothing, have personally counted on one occasion 1 man working while 25 standing around doing SFA.

prinzeugen

monument wrote: »

The draft detailed part 8 designs and related reports for College Green which were rejected (or at lease the approval was postponed) by city councillors can I think only be found at the end of this article:

http://irishcycle.com/2015/11/07/confirmed-college-green-dame-st-plan-continues-mixing-buses-and-bikes/

Where did you get the plans from? You wrote the article. Looking for clicks?

monument

prinzeugen wrote: »

monument wrote: »

The draft detailed part 8 designs and related reports for College Green which were rejected (or at lease the approval was postponed) by city councillors can I think only be found at the end of this article:

http://irishcycle.com/2015/11/07/confirmed-college-green-dame-st-plan-continues-mixing-buses-and-bikes/

Where did you get the plans from? You wrote the article. Looking for clicks?

I'd prefer if councils were more transparent and published all files and reports under any discussion or, at the very least, publish reports presented to public council meeting, but they don't.

Look, if you want, you're welcome to link to each individual PDF file and I'll delete the link to the article so no hits will be counted -- it's not my fault nobody else has uploaded the files.

Banjoxed

bruno1x wrote: »

Council workers would not have the brass neck of those working on LUAS cross city, for every one man working there is at least 5 standing around doing nothing, have personally counted on one occasion 1 man working while 25 standing around doing SFA.

You should have gone up and wagged your finger at them. That would show them.