Still no Nationwide DAB Radio

Andy From Sligo

Does anyone know why there is still no DAB Radio available nationwide here in Ireland? - there must be a plethora of DAB radios sold in the shops (well there is, or DAB/FM radios these days) and DAB radio's must be fitted to a load of new cars now as standard - so why can we not have a proper DAB service oce and all in Ireland .. everywhere I mean from the smallest rural towns and villages as well as big towns. I have a DAB/FM Radio in the bathroom and the kitchen and a DAB clock radio, no DAB signal whatsoever not even a weak one where I live, Have to rely on FM and most stations will have hiss and interference even with the Aerial fully extended and have to switch to mono setting- even what is supposed to be our local radio station (ocean fm) is really bad on FM even when I have the aerial extended and set to mono, so bad I dont bother listening to it and turn to one of the stronger nationwide radio stations.

bbability

No plans to extend coverage. They claim over 50% of the population is covered. Its a real shame. I think it would open up the radio market would benefit from full coverage

Trick of the Tail

It's largely because the BAI have their thumbs in their ar$e about it. They don't want to introduce dab, because their members - i.e. the existing FM stations, don't want it. Read: don't want more competition.

The BAI is behaving more like an association than a regulator in this. They are hung up on the idea that dab is a replacement for FM, which they rightly believe there's no need for.

Rather than that, dab should be seen as an incremental medium in which smaller business model, more niche content stations can exist.

This would increase listener choice and plurality, which are both things the BAI is legally bound to do, but still it ignores this.

I maintain that if independent dab was licensed in the near future, it would not adversely affect the existing FM stations unduly, as it would attract listeners who are currently getting their desired niche content elsewhere, and advertisers or sponsors who currently do not have targeted media to use.

Andy From Sligo

But competition already exists for FM radio stations already doesnt it in the form of Internet radio and the Towns in Ireland that already can receive DAB Radio signals (theres a point, the Towns in the republic of Ireland that already get DAB radio, do they get the full DAB stations that the UK get of is it just Irish DAB stations do they get?)

If Internet radios werent so expensive in the 100's of euros as opposed to DAB radios, it wouldnt be too much of an issue - I think I paid just 20euro for my DAB/FM radio from tescos .

flutered

i believe that england has plenty of black spots also, sorry if i am wrong, the bigge coming down the tracks is space for the mobile platforms

StreetLight

flutered wrote: »

i believe that england has plenty of black spots also, sorry if i am wrong, the bigge coming down the tracks is space for the mobile platforms

DAB uses VHF Band 3. The current 4G mobiles are in the upper UHF band, so I think DAB would be reasonably safe for the long-term.

Mr Sea Wolf

If you can't get decent fm in your area, what makes you think dab would be any better ? UK stations will never be carried on irish dab btw,

Antenna

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

. I have a DAB/FM Radio in the bathroom and the kitchen and a DAB clock radio, no DAB signal whatsoever not even a weak one where I live, Have to rely on FM and most stations will have hiss and interference even with the Aerial fully extended and have to switch to mono setting- even what is supposed to be our local radio station (ocean fm) is really bad on FM even when I have the aerial extended and set to mono, so bad I dont bother listening to it and turn to one of the stronger nationwide radio stations.

There have been complaints of some DAB radios having poor/very poor reception on FM, how is FM reception on other (non-DAB) radios in your location?

Infoanon

Mr Sea Wolf wrote: »

If you can't get decent fm in your area, what makes you think dab would be any better ? UK stations will never be carried on irish dab btw,

Talksport has been carried on trial tests

Andy From Sligo

Mr Sea Wolf wrote: »

If you can't get decent fm in your area, what makes you think dab would be any better ? UK stations will never be carried on irish dab btw,

is that what would happen then ? - i thought with Digital you either have the signal or not and it was stronger signal no?

Andy From Sligo

Antenna wrote: »

..... how is FM reception on other (non-DAB) radios in your location?

alright not too bad depending where they are placed in the room. The radio in the bathroom is just where i want it on a shelf but typically for some reason its bad spot there, better reception on the window sill but then it would get splashed by the shower.

Andy From Sligo

hired a car in the UK recently and it was fitted with a DAB radio as standard and it was the biz. So clear and noo hiss or crackles. we drove along the motorway and it changed to new radio stations automatically to the area you were in (I suppose this could have been changed in the settings setup) but this is the future, it makes FM radio so antiquated

runnerholic

What is the DAB coverage in Dublin like?

Andy From Sligo

so in Ireland we are at Saorview now, UHF TV ditched because saorview has better sound and pictures, fibre optic broadband because offer more speed , mobile 4G , but only 50% coverage and sounds like the rest of the country ditched leaving an old fashioned bad quality limited stations on the FM radio band ... just dont make sense. everything should be Digital now in terms of the way entertainment because it is after all available and better than FM - its not as though it hasnt been invented, or has been invented but it was deemed a failure or anything so I am a bit confused why it hasnt been fully enabled to everywhere in Ireland yet and not progressed the way the other things have been brought up to date.

Expunge

The Big 3 - RTE, Communicorp and UTV like it just as it is.

They don't want to invest and they certainly don't want the likes of Global or Bauer possibly having a cheap entry point into the Irish market where they may be able to do a bit of damage.

Yes. FM - limited and expensive is just fine for the likes of them.

bbability

runnerholic wrote: »

What is the DAB coverage in Dublin like?

Excellent from Dublin as far as Drigheda. Ibhad the lend of a car with DAB radio about two years ago and drove the M1 and back with full coverage of RTE Gold

Andy From Sligo

Would the likes of Wexford be able to pick up UK DAB radio from Wales or does DAB not travel that far? - just wondering like

former total

Expunge wrote: »

The Big 3 - RTE, Communicorp and UTV like it just as it is.

They don't want to invest and they certainly don't want the likes of Global or Bauer possibly having a cheap entry point into the Irish market where they may be able to do a bit of damage.

Yes. FM - limited and expensive is just fine for the likes of them.

It's far more likely that it's just not commercially viable. Small advertising market, low population density, low uptake of the hardware and its main competition (ie FM) is firmly established and going nowhere.

Just one of those things I'm afraid.

SimonMaher

former total wrote: »

It's far more likely that it's just not commercially viable. Small advertising market, low population density, low uptake of the hardware and its main competition (ie FM) is firmly established and going nowhere.

Just one of those things I'm afraid.

See, this debate rolls around here about twice a year and we get the old "it's just not commercially viable" argument. I shouldn't bite again, but I will! This isn't aimed at you at all former-total, it's aimed at the debate

How on earth do we know whether it's commercially viable or not without actually doing it? Surely the only way to judge it is to advertise for MUX operators for specific areas that they express interest in, licence them and then see how they get on with attracting customers to their DAB MUX? If they succeed then great, we get more diversity and the MUX gets a decent business. If they don't succeed then the MUX operator won't make money, the project will cease and we will know better.

In the absence of actually trying it though (and technical test MUXes don't count obviously, given their finite duration), I don't believe that anyone can say with any level of authority that it's not viable.

Simon

Mr Sea Wolf

SimonMaher wrote: »

How on earth do we know whether it's commercially viable

Sunshine 106.8, 4fm, TXFM

When I lived in Collooney in Sligo I had full coverage of UK digital radio from Brougher Mountain with a roof digital aerial. Collooney was in a fortuitous reception area though as we always had the UK telly channels and FM radio stations there!

SimonMaher

Mr Sea Wolf wrote: »

Sunshine 106.8, 4fm, TXFM

So the financial struggles of individual radio stations (all of whom are still on air and still commercially trading might I add!) prove the lack of commercial viability of DAB Radio in Ireland?

Please make the connection for me Sea-Wolf.

Simon

micosoft

SimonMaher wrote: »

See, this debate rolls around here about twice a year and we get the old "it's just not commercially viable" argument. I shouldn't bite again, but I will! This isn't aimed at you at all former-total, it's aimed at the debate

So we should ignore reality because commercially viable is apparently old hat?

SimonMaher wrote: »

How on earth do we know whether it's commercially viable or not without actually doing it? Surely the only way to judge it is to advertise for MUX operators for specific areas that they express interest in, licence them and then see how they get on with attracting customers to their DAB MUX? If they succeed then great, we get more diversity and the MUX gets a decent business. If they don't succeed then the MUX operator won't make money, the project will cease and we will know better.

That's not really the way business works. People have this weird notion that they want to make a return on investment with as little risk as possible. I don't see you offering your personal cash to see whether or not a technology that provides a tiny incremental advantage will succeed.

SimonMaher wrote: »

In the absence of actually trying it though (and technical test MUXes don't count obviously, given their finite duration), I don't believe that anyone can say with any level of authority that it's not viable.
Simon

Yes. Yes they can. They can look at the UK - a hyperdense country where you have 65 million people packed into a small country the radio stations are not making a return. In fact the only justification for DAB is to free up radio spectrum for other activities. Given that even that is not happening in the UK the business case has all but evaporated.
Reading between the lines and comments in this article is interesting:
http://www.theguardian.com/media/2009/jan/29/digital-radio-lord-carter-report

In low density countries such as Ireland we would be better to look at the US which went to Satellite Radio IF that's what we want.

All is moot anyway. Radio is primarily a Car market. Cars are increasingly coming with built in 3/4G (Most BMW's now). In 10-15 years (well within the timeline of DAB) most cars will have this built in for diagnostics, Media updates etc. We will skip DAB and go straight to Internet Radio.... No need to build out an expensive white elephant DAB transmitter network.

xband

The biggest issue is that local radio owns its own transmission facilities and they're not likely to want to move to a situation where they have to rent capacity from 2RN (RTE Transmission Networks) to serve their own markets.

It also really hasn't had much uptake in many markets.

I usually end up using streaming on 3G/4G in the car now and it's pretty satisfactory.

DAB could be a lot better but it's pretty horrible old early digital tech. Had it been somehow integrated with streaming services it might be interesting.

Also while there are a lot of DAB radios out there they're still largely either bulky radios or they're not wonderful quality.

A lot of radio listening is either on phones or in cars and that market isn't really addressed by most DAB.

The service in the uk is being driven largely by BBC having very deep pockets and being committed to driving DAB come hell or high water. The market in Ireland has to deal with commercial reality.

SimonMaher

I don't want the impression that I didn't want to have the debate again Micosoft - obviously by getting into the issue again means I'm happy that it's being debated again!

Thank you for the lesson is business practice, thankfully I understand the world of risk and reward Surely though, if someone is willing to front up the cash/take the risk on running a DAB MUX then it should be open for them to take on that risk? As of now, nobody is given the opportunity to take that risk. That is counter-intuitive to the way that business works isn't it? I can't figure out why people are so anxious to protect other people from spending their own money. I get the strong feeling that it's not the MUX operators money they are seeking to protect.

I would have thought the UK was a bad example to pick for arguing that we shouldn't have DAB. New DAB Muxes are being launched nationally in the UK in 2016 along with the proposed expansion of the low-cost low-power DAB model currently being trialled. Funnily enough, Radio groups with far more radio experience and far more money than you or I are still investing in DAB Services in the UK despite both the risk and the cost. Why would that be?

"Radio is primarily a car market" - Well, no it isn't (in-home listening is the primary market) but anyway, I agree that the developments in 4G/5G etc will have a significant effect in years to come but online will always be a complimentary distribution means to broadcast.

Look, every distribution platform has its benefits and its issues. FM is great and will continue to be great well into the future. 3G/4G/5G etc will be great for mobile use but limited by capacity and DAB can be a great complimentary medium too giving relatively low cost distribution and reception for a decent number of services. I still see no argument as to why it shouldn't be given an opportunity to succeed or fail on its own merits.

Finally, it's important too for us to remember that average Joe/Josephine doesn't give a toss about how Radio is delivered to him/her. All they care about is the quality of the content and that is exactly how it should be.

Simon

end of the road

Mr Sea Wolf wrote: »

Sunshine 106.8, 4fm, TXFM

proves nothing in relation to dab i'm afraid

micosoft wrote: »

So we should ignore reality because commercially viable is apparently old hat?

what "reality" . considering the BAI use "not financially/commercially viable" as an excuse to stifle real competition, forgive me if i don't take it to seriously in relation to this debate.

micosoft wrote: »

That's not really the way business works. People have this weird notion that they want to make a return on investment with as little risk as possible. I don't see you offering your personal cash to see whether or not a technology that provides a tiny incremental advantage will succeed.

how can he when the BAI won't licence the mux operators. a comreg licenced test mux only lasts for so long.

micosoft wrote: »

Yes. Yes they can. They can look at the UK - a hyperdense country where you have 65 million people packed into a small country the radio stations are not making a return.

because of the over inflated costs that are being charged. because of the licencing regime. because they are using normal dab (mp2) over dab+ (mp4) . and many other reasons. its not a reason for us not to try it, we can look at the mistakes and see how we can improve.

micosoft wrote: »

In fact the only justification for DAB is to free up radio spectrum for other activities.

thats the uk governments justification yes. doesn't mean there is no justification. otherwise no country would be licencing any type of dab digital radio

micosoft wrote: »

Given that even that is not happening in the UK the business case has all but evaporated.

the business case for having dab digital radio to free up fm for other uses has indeed evaporated. which is good. the business case to have dab digital radio as another extension with reasonable rates for carrige and a niche content only stance rather then a some niche but carying what mostly whats on fm all ready stance which people don't want, and is the reason people aren't moving to dab hasn't.

micosoft wrote: »

In low density countries such as Ireland we would be better to look at the US which went to Satellite Radio IF that's what we want.

considering its another form of digital radio, if it should be looked at, then no reason dab+ shouldn't be also.

micosoft wrote: »

All is moot anyway. Radio is primarily a Car market. Cars are increasingly coming with built in 3/4G (Most BMW's now). In 10-15 years (well within the timeline of DAB) most cars will have this built in for diagnostics, Media updates etc. We will skip DAB and go straight to Internet Radio.... No need to build out an expensive white elephant DAB transmitter network.

really? all is not mute at all. have you any evidence that it would be a white elephant? also, how do you know that
1. radio is mostly a car market.
2. we will go straight to internet radio.


sounds to me like your plucking things out of thin air that have no basis in reality until we at least implement a framework for digital radio. looking at the uk and its failure means nothing, considering it isn't the only country that has licenced dab digital radio.

former total

SimonMaher wrote: »

See, this debate rolls around here about twice a year and we get the old "it's just not commercially viable" argument. I shouldn't bite again, but I will! This isn't aimed at you at all former-total, it's aimed at the debate

How on earth do we know whether it's commercially viable or not without actually doing it? Surely the only way to judge it is to advertise for MUX operators for specific areas that they express interest in, licence them and then see how they get on with attracting customers to their DAB MUX? If they succeed then great, we get more diversity and the MUX gets a decent business. If they don't succeed then the MUX operator won't make money, the project will cease and we will know better.

In the absence of actually trying it though (and technical test MUXes don't count obviously, given their finite duration), I don't believe that anyone can say with any level of authority that it's not viable.

Simon

Because if it was commercially viable, someone would try it. It's that simple.

People who know far more than me about it will have done the sums, rattled a few pie charts together and come to one of two conclusions:
1) it's viable, let's go for it
2) it's not viable, forget it

Option 3 is that some media company has figured out there is an untapped pot of gold out there with no real competitors, but decided not to bother cashing in. Seems unlikely.

xband

My own experience is that as 4G has arrived, at reasonable price, I just listen to steams or cached from Spotify and Apple Music and mostly for speech I listen to podcasts now.

I occasionally flick past a bit of current affairs but often not live.

Increasingly I read my news online from both paid and free services.

I don think I'm likely to be that unusual. This is a massively changing market and linear, broadcast media is only going to be able to succeed if can continue to grab audiences long term.

SimonMaher

former total wrote: »

Because if it was commercially viable, someone would try it. It's that simple.

See Former Total, this is the point I'm trying to make. People have looked into it and have pushed the process as far as it can go but there is no MUX licence on offer from the BAI. Not there, doesn't exist, not an option.

A permanent DAB Mux operators licence has not been advertised so nobody can "try it". If DAB Mux licences are offered and nobody takes them up then fair enough or if they are taken up but they can't get customers then that's fair enough too but until that option is offered then the easy cop out of it not being financially viable is just that, a cop out.

Xband raises a far more fundamental point which is that people are finding their "radio" needs elsewhere other than broadcast. We can provide our indigenous broadcast industry with the tools and platforms to grab those audiences or we can regulate like it's 1992 and watch younger audiences drift away from Irish radio totally. That topic is another days work


Simon

Andy From Sligo

4G - need some kind of mobile plan for streaming, and plus when you are out of many towns all you can get is 3g or 2g so I am not quite sure how 4G streaming would work on a car radio if you can get 4G in main towns and cities ... but signal drops off to 2G or GPRS as you drive out into the countryside - Internet radio, the radio themselves are expensive and will continue to be , if people want to buy a radio they are more than likely going to invest in readily available plethora of DAB/DAB+ radios that are out there on the market. There is much more choice in DAB radios than Internet radios .... now if only could get a good DAB signal everywhere (or 98%) of Ireland .

Can we not rely on RTE to supply this nationwide of DAB signal? - why should we have to have other commercial investors taking it up? - especially if most of the DAB programmes to be broadcast will be RTE radio channels? and then RTE can just use the existing infrastructure to deliver DAB nationwide.

xband

Depends on your mobile network and signals are improving as 800MHz 4G and 90MHz 3G roll out. 2100MHz 3G always struggled with indoor and rural and 1800MHz isn't optimal for non urban 4G
I drove Cork Dublin with my iPhone connected to the car's systems and I had full control of Apple Music and podcasts from the steering wheel and that's just a bog standard Hyundai.

I'd coverage fast enough to stream most of the way and access to a huge cache of audio for the few mins that I didn't.

There's a limited choice of Internet radio hardware, but every smartphone and tablet is an Internet radio and offer vastly superior interfaces to any physical radio.

Apple devices typically connect to speakers by just plonking them onto a cradle with a lightening connector and every device connects with Bluetooth without any issues at all these days.

So to say there's a shortage of Internet radios is like saying there's a shortage of word processors. Radio is just an app. You don't need dedicated hardware you just need good speakers!

Hundreds of millions of Euro are being invested in mobile networks because there's a huge maeket. That's not the case with DAB