Still no Nationwide DAB Radio

end of the road · 31-12-2015 1:53am

former total wrote: »

Because if it was commercially viable, someone would try it. It's that simple.

its not that simple at all. there is no framework to allow such licences in the first place. any of the test licences so far have been issued by comreg and they only last a certain duration.

former total wrote: »

People who know far more than me about it will have done the sums, rattled a few pie charts together and come to one of two conclusions:
1) it's viable, let's go for it
2) it's not viable, forget it

who would they be? the BAI? i'd hardly trust their judgement in fairness.

its very simple. issue the licences. lets see if there is an interest. if not, so be it. but you can't not issue a framework to allow something and then claim there is no interest when there is no framework to even allow a situation where interest can be gauged.

xband · 31-12-2015 1:55am

The ideal solution would actually be a muticasting system built into the mobile nets. You could then basically broadcast radio to Apps without choking bandwidth unnecessarily.

Andy From Sligo · 31-12-2015 2:25am

all very well saying mobile phones could be used as Internet radios - however I and I should imagine a lot of people would like to conserve their mobile phone battery power for making and taking telephone calls primarily .

If DAB took off and the (DAB stations were sufficient for your needs) then an awful lot of new cars for ages now have been supplied with DAB/FM radios in the dash (not Internet radios) thus saving your phone battery, and if we are talking home DAB you can run that off portable by batteries or plug it in ... thus saving your mobile phone battery.

Why not (if available) use all means of getting your radio station fix? - FM/DAB/4G/Internet streaming you dont have to be limited if all means of technology in use it can all be used seamlessly and to be quite honest we are a progressed 1st world country, make everything available if technically possible ... and it is technically possible to me it sounds like only seems like its not possible because of licences wont be awarded/allowed or its been shot dead before its even been rolled across the whole land and trialled. - I mean to be quite honest if DAB was widely available why would anyone want to use low quality FM radio signals any more if they have a DAB radio? - and if the DAB signals carried all the existing FM radio stations anyway along with maybe a few more choice how is that going to hurt the existing FM radio stations? - If I like listening to RTE Radio one or 2FM and I have a DAB Radio I am still going to tune into/listen to RTE Radio One or 2FM but in glorious digital signal in stereo but without the hiss and crackles so they are not going to loose listeners by allowing DAB nationwide.

Mr Sea Wolf · 31-12-2015 10:10am

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

all very well saying mobile phones could be used as Internet radios - however I and I should imagine a lot of people would like to conserve their mobile phone battery power for making and taking telephone calls primarily .

If DAB took off and the (DAB stations were sufficient for your needs) then an awful lot of new cars for ages now have been supplied with DAB/FM radios in the dash (not Internet radios) thus saving your phone battery, and if we are talking home DAB you can run that off portable by batteries or plug it in ... thus saving your mobile phone battery.

Why not (if available) use all means of getting your radio station fix? - FM/DAB/4G/Internet streaming you dont have to be limited if all means of technology in use it can all be used seamlessly and to be quite honest we are a progressed 1st world country, make everything available if technically possible ... and it is technically possible to me it sounds like only seems like its not possible because of licences wont be awarded/allowed or its been shot dead before its even been rolled across the whole land and trialled. - I mean to be quite honest if DAB was widely available why would anyone want to use low quality FM radio signals any more if they have a DAB radio? - and if the DAB signals carried all the existing FM radio stations anyway along with maybe a few more choice how is that going to hurt the existing FM radio stations? - If I like listening to RTE Radio one or 2FM and I have a DAB Radio I am still going to tune into/listen to RTE Radio One or 2FM but in glorious digital signal in stereo but without the hiss and crackles so they are not going to loose listeners by allowing DAB nationwide.

FFS you'd swear FM was as bad as longwave the way you are going on. I never experience any "hiss and Crackle" on FM and I'm sure the vast majority of other irish radio listener's don't either.

Trick of the Tail · 31-12-2015 12:06pm

Whether or not FM is good enough quality it totally irrelevant. FM is a perfectly good medium, but the notion that DAB could replace it needs to be completely eliminated from the discussion.

Here's the thing: When Total Broadcast were running their test dab in the south-east, they were approached by several organisations looking to pay for carriage, but since the rules of trial licences are strict, they had to be declined.

If I decide I want to open a newspaper shop, I open a newspaper shop. If my predictions that it will be commercially successful are correct, happy days.

If however I'm wrong and no-one wants to patronise my shop, then after a while I'll close up and concede defeat.

That's the way business works.

And that's the way DAB should be rolled out here.

xband · 31-12-2015 12:42pm

The problem as I see it is that spending a heap of money on DAB would be like Eir starting a push on ISDN.

It's 80s/90s digital tech in what is now an IP world.

There's role for digital radio, but DAB isn't very likely to lead to anything very exciting.

end of the road · 31-12-2015 4:51pm

xband wrote: »

The problem as I see it is that spending a heap of money on DAB would be like Eir starting a push on ISDN.

so what? surely issuing the licences and you know, allowing people to be able to spend their money on it and if it works it works and if it doesn't it doesn't would be the best option? after all, we don't protect other businesses. why this protection of people from spending their money? after all, its not socially necessary so doesn't need protecting

xband wrote: »

It's 80s/90s digital tech in what is now an IP world.

dab is . dab+ isn't.

xband wrote: »

There's role for digital radio, but DAB isn't very likely to lead to anything very exciting.

maybe not. but there is only one way to find out. issue the licences and if it works it works, if not so be it.

xband · 31-12-2015 5:33pm

Licensing is one thing, but not lashing licence fee or state money into it, making it compulsory or vaguely threatening to cut off analogue FM as an incentive to switch. All of which has been done in the uk!

former total · 31-12-2015 5:39pm

This discussion sort of ignores the fact that commercial DAB has been tried. And failed.

In the the years since, has uptake of the hardware increased? Nope. Has 3G/4G availability of Internet radio increased? Massively.

It's been overtaken by a technology that may be inferior but sometimes that happens. All the while FM plods along happily in the background and meets the needs of the vast, vast majority of the market.

No one is going to want to invest huge cash in a niche product, and that's what DAB is. It's just commercial reality.

xband · 31-12-2015 5:52pm

I think you're going to see developments around multicasting linked to streaming products in the mobile networks over the next while though as they get more aggressive about managing bandwidth to ensure QOS.

The key for Irish broadcasters right now is to ensure that they have a platform to get into mobile devices.
I'd like to see something locally based that peers on the INEX and all the mobile providers here to ensure it gets decent service.

Otherwise, you're just going to see Spotify, Google and Apple take over the whole 'broadcast' market much like has already happened to the music sector.

Maybe that's what the BAI and ComReg should be focusing attention on right now to ensure a future for Irish broadcasters rather than fiddling around with what looks to me to be a dead end tech.

The scale of investment in these mobile networks though is absolutely huge. Three is spending €300m at the moment. Vodafone has lashed a lot into theirs and Eir/Meteor has done similar.

4G isn't on air that long, it's only been available since 2013 (launched by Meteor in Sept 13) so give them a while to get the gear up on the masts and the fibre to mast gear in to do the backhaul.
I've been getting really impressive speeds on Vodafone recently >70mbit/s and my cap isn't that restrictive tbh - I've enough data to stream all month in the car.

SimonMaher · 31-12-2015 6:04pm

Former Total - I must have missed this! When was a permanent DAB MUX licence issued in Ireland? I think you need to correct yourself here. There have been technical DAB trials here on a number of occasions (and one continues now) but outside of the RTE MUX, there is no, nor has there at any point been a permanent licenced DAB MUX in Ireland. I was a stakeholder in the 2007/2008 trial and there was no option for permanent operation after that. Perhaps you misunderstood the nature of those trials?

FM plods along, and should continue to plod along indefinitely to provide services and 3G/4G will continue to develop but why not DAB (+) too? People are exceptionally prickly about it and insistent on its non-viability and I don't understand why. What harm can trying it out commercially do?

Simon

IsaacWunder · 31-12-2015 6:14pm

We're way behind. Norway is set to switch off FM in 2017 (i.e. next year). Much lower population density there with about the same overall population as the island of Ireland.

It's an absolute scandal that the government are dragging their heels on rolling out DAB. Stinks of cronyism. Especially when there is an oligopoly in the radio market that benefits from delaying DAB rollout.

Let us not forget that one of the biggest players in the market, Communicorp, is owned by Denis O'Brien, a man who, the Moriarty Tribunal stated, "donated" over the equivalent of €1m in "clandestine circumstances" to a former government minister. Payments that "were demonstrably referable to the acts and conduct of [Minister Michael] Lowry...that inured to the benefit of Mr O'Brien's winning consortium".

All of this must be taken in the context that, under EU law, the State is obliged to roll out digital broadcasting. It truly is disgraceful.

end of the road · 31-12-2015 6:36pm

xband wrote: »

Licensing is one thing, but not lashing licence fee or state money into it, making it compulsory or vaguely threatening to cut off analogue FM as an incentive to switch. All of which has been done in the uk!

yes, hence i've stated we must not go down the route of the uk in relation to it.

former total wrote: »

This discussion sort of ignores the fact that commercial DAB has been tried. And failed.

right so the companies investing in more dab in the uk is a myth then? granted i believe they should all move to dab+.

former total wrote: »

In the years since, has uptake of the hardware increased? Nope.

actually, the take up of dab in the uk has increased. nothing to shout about but it has increased.

former total wrote: »

No one is going to want to invest huge cash in a niche product, and that's what DAB is.

prove it. i will give you the reality. you have no basis or proof for your claims. if the BAI issue the licences and implement the framework and there is no interest, then i will take your claims seriously. until then.

former total wrote: »

It's just commercial reality.

no, it isn't. people cannot get licences for it. there is no legal framework. nothing can be commercial reality when there is nothing to allow for something to be potential commercial reality. but your just not getting it are you dispite the situation in relation to ireland being explained to you.

former total · 31-12-2015 6:52pm

SimonMaher wrote: »

Former Total - I must have missed this! When was a permanent DAB MUX licence issued in Ireland? I think you need to correct yourself here. There have been technical DAB trials here on a number of occasions (and one continues now) but outside of the RTE MUX, there is no, nor has there at any point been a permanent licenced DAB MUX in Ireland. I was a stakeholder in the 2007/2008 trial and there was no option for permanent operation after that. Perhaps you misunderstood the nature of those trials?

FM plods along, and should continue to plod along indefinitely to provide services and 3G/4G will continue to develop but why not DAB (+) too? People are exceptionally prickly about it and insistent on its non-viability and I don't understand why. What harm can trying it out commercially do?

Simon

My post didn't mention anything about a permanent MUX so no, I don't need to correct myself and we'd have a more constructive discussion if you could stop making out that my opinion is based on ignorance, thanks.

The harm of trying it out commercially is that the people trying it out lose a **** load of money. That loss is the reason it hasn't been progressed. Rolling it out nationwide when only a tiny minority of people actually have the equipment to receive it is madness and no one is going to do so and no one is beating down the door of the BAI demanding a licence.

Unless we go down the route of switching off analogue, there is simply nothing that will drive people to it because the benefits compared to FM are marginal for the average listener.

end of the road · 31-12-2015 7:11pm

former total wrote: »

The harm of trying it out commercially is that the people trying it out lose a **** load of money.

how do we know. a permanent licence or a legal framework doesn't exist here in ireland. even if it was the case those trying it out would lose money, so what? many businesses set up and don't work out every day.

former total wrote: »

That loss is the reason it hasn't been progressed.

what loss. how can you progress anything when there is not even the legal framework to do it.

former total wrote: »

Rolling it out nationwide when only a tiny minority of people actually have the equipment to receive it is madness

why would people have the equipment when they have nothing to listen to via the equipment so don't bother buying it. give them something worth listening to (something that is actually the BAI'S job and which they are failing to do) and we will talk then

former total wrote: »

no one is going to do so

how do you know. what evidence have you got. simply saying lalala nobody is going to do this and that, isn't evidence. lets hear what you have got if you have anything at all.

former total wrote: »

no one is beating down the door of the BAI demanding a licence.

why would they when its likely the BAI will turn them down for "protectionist" reasons

former total wrote: »

there is simply nothing that will drive people to it because the benefits compared to FM are marginal for the average listener.

not if implemented properly, which if it was, it would be an extension of the terrestrial broadcast services. implement the frame work, allow for licences, and lets see once and for all. no reason not to apart from protectionist reasons.

xband · 31-12-2015 7:43pm

We're not way behind.

Finland abandoned DAB entirely 10 years ago, Sweden isn't sure about it nor is Iceland and none of those countries have any plans to switch off FM.

Radio is about great content and delivery, not about pushing a technology agenda.

Irish radio is light years ahead of a lot of places in terms of content. How that content reaches people is largely irrelevant.

Norway is highly unusual in its push to switch off FM.

former total · 31-12-2015 7:50pm

It's just too easy to reach for the off-the-shelf solution of blaming the BAI bogeyman.

There are many reasons why DAB hasn't taken off here. I've outlined a few of them. Disagree all you want, but they are all perfectly valid.

A very small market provides little potential for return on investment. You then exclude 99% of that market because they lack the hardware and advertisers won't be queuing up. Add to that, every DAB listener you attract is cannibalised from your existing FM audience and you're into a simply non-viable business case.

You don't expect people to buy DAB radios with no content, but you expect people to set up the network with no audience? It's a chicken and egg situation but that's the reality.

Let me throw out a suggestion; maybe BAI don't want to open bidding for licensing because they know it would be a flop?

xband · 31-12-2015 7:53pm

Considering that commercial DTT was a total flop, that's highly likely.

Unfortunately, DAB is the Betamax or Minidisc of broadcasting standards. It seemed like a great idea once upon a time but tech has moved on.

Mr Sea Wolf · 31-12-2015 7:57pm

IsaacWunder wrote: »

We're way behind. Norway is set to switch off FM in 2017 (i.e. next year). Much lower population density there with about the same overall population as the island of Ireland.

It's an absolute scandal that the government are dragging their heels on rolling out DAB. Stinks of cronyism. Especially when there is an oligopoly in the radio market that benefits from delaying DAB rollout.

Let us not forget that one of the biggest players in the market, Communicorp, is owned by Denis O'Brien, a man who, the Moriarty Tribunal stated, "donated" over the equivalent of €1m in "clandestine circumstances" to a former government minister. Payments that "were demonstrably referable to the acts and conduct of [Minister Michael] Lowry...that inured to the benefit of Mr O'Brien's winning consortium".

All of this must be taken in the context that, under EU law, the State is obliged to roll out digital broadcasting. It truly is disgraceful.

What a load of garbage

end of the road · 31-12-2015 8:20pm

former total wrote: »

It's just too easy to reach for the off-the-shelf solution of blaming the BAI bogeyman.

look, they are the regulator. they decide who can get on air and who can't, and via what means. there is no legal framework or any method of applying for a permanent dab+ mux licence in this country. who's fault is that, and who's job is it to implement such? the BAI'S. there is no reason not to have the relevant frame works in place to allow people to apply or set up dab muxes and dab stations. if people don't take it up, so be it.

former total wrote: »

There are many reasons why DAB hasn't taken off here.

there is only 1. the relevant frameworks aren't in place to even allow anything to happen.

former total wrote: »

I've outlined a few of them.

problem is, as there is nothing in place to allow any implementation, they cannot be proved

former total wrote: »

Disagree all you want, but they are all perfectly valid.

they aren't until such time as the frameworks are in place. implement the frameworks and if they turn out to be the case, then were done.

former total wrote: »

A very small market provides little potential for return on investment.

we can't know that as nobody can operate on a full legal basis via dab+.

former total wrote: »

You then exclude 99% of that market because they lack the hardware and advertisers won't be queuing up.

they lack the hardware because there is nothing to listen to so no point in buying the hardware.

former total wrote: »

Add to that, every DAB listener you attract is cannibalised from your existing FM audience

exactly. thats the whole reason why it won't be implemented. protectionism of the fm rather then allowing things to operate like other commercial businesses.

former total wrote: »

you're into a simply non-viable business case.

your into a possibly viable business case, just not a viable protectionist of the fm at all costs business case. but we won't know either way because of the protectionist anti-competitive stance of the BAI.

former total wrote: »

You don't expect people to buy DAB radios with no content, but you expect people to set up the network with no audience? It's a chicken and egg situation but that's the reality.

implement the frameworks and lets see. advertise and implement the lot properly and lets see. if it doesn't work so be it, at least we will know. there are no excuses here not to implement the relevant frameworks. protectionism in radio has no place. its not a socially necessary service apart from rte.

former total wrote: »

Let me throw out a suggestion; maybe BAI don't want to open bidding for licensing because they know it would be a flop?

let me put out a more likely suggestion. it is most likely the case the reason they won't allow bidding for licences is because of their protectionist policies toards fm. whether the BAI think they will be a flop or not is frankly irrelevant, and using that possibility to not allow licencing is frankly, anti-competitive and protectionist.

xband wrote: »

Considering that commercial DTT was a total flop, that's highly likely.

i'm not sure commercial dtt or dtt in general can really be compared to radio. there might be some aspects similar.

xband wrote: »

Unfortunately, DAB is the Betamax or Minidisc of broadcasting standards. It seemed like a great idea once upon a time but tech has moved on.

you keep forgetting about dab+. nobody (rightly) is suggesting using ordinary dab, its indeed rubbish and would need very high bitrates to sound any way decent which would possibly bring costs up.

Mr Sea Wolf wrote: »

What a load of garbage

well. considering its ireland, it wouldn't be surprising if it wasn't

Mr Sea Wolf wrote: »

a load of garbage

Andy From Sligo · 31-12-2015 10:13pm

maybe thats what is needed *IS* for FM to be phased out (switch off) in Ireland and force people to switch to DAB (read that as DAB+) - they have done it with switching off analogue UHF for the TV system and everyone had to go out and buy new Saorview equipped tellys and people did it, now have better pictures and sounds. UHf analogue was/is old hat ... FM is old hat and antiquated ....

SimonMaher · 31-12-2015 10:15pm

former total wrote: »

My post didn't mention anything about a permanent MUX so no, I don't need to correct myself and we'd have a more constructive discussion if you could stop making out that my opinion is based on ignorance, thanks.

The harm of trying it out commercially is that the people trying it out lose a **** load of money. That loss is the reason it hasn't been progressed. Rolling it out nationwide when only a tiny minority of people actually have the equipment to receive it is madness and no one is going to do so and no one is beating down the door of the BAI demanding a licence.

See this is the prickliness I was talking about in my earlier post. For some reason, it seems to strike a nerve!

OK, allow me to reword my point then Former Total - On what grounds was the trial (presuming that it is the 2007/2008 trial we are talking about) a failure? From my recollection, participants were asked if they would be willing to pursue DAB further should the opportunity arise and the majority said they would. Failure?

As for being worried about people losing lots of money if they invest in DAB, well, who cares? If it's their money then what on earth difference does it make to you? I come back to it again, what is to be lost here?

Simon

Andy From Sligo · 31-12-2015 10:18pm

for those people saying that DAB/DAB+ is dead in the water and the equivalent of pushing ISDN for internet I dont agree, then why are the car manufacturers installing DAB radios into mid range cars and even the low end budget cars now these days if DAB is dead in the water?

SimonMaher · 31-12-2015 10:26pm

former total wrote: »

It's just too easy to reach for the off-the-shelf solution of blaming the BAI bogeyman.

There are many reasons why DAB hasn't taken off here. I've outlined a few of them. Disagree all you want, but they are all perfectly valid.

A very small market provides little potential for return on investment. You then exclude 99% of that market because they lack the hardware and advertisers won't be queuing up. Add to that, every DAB listener you attract is cannibalised from your existing FM audience and you're into a simply non-viable business case.

You don't expect people to buy DAB radios with no content, but you expect people to set up the network with no audience? It's a chicken and egg situation but that's the reality.

Let me throw out a suggestion; maybe BAI don't want to open bidding for licensing because they know it would be a flop?

It is reasonable to expect people to be given the opportunity to set up a network with their own cash money if they feel they can make it pay. That's what this is all about.

I'm particularly interested by the "Every DAB listener you attract is cannibalised from your existing FM audience" too. Is it really? Does online not do exactly the same thing? Does Spotify/Beats/Deezer/iTunes Radio etc not all do the same thing too? Only so many dykes you can keep a finger in at once

Your last suggestion sums it up well. "they know it would be a flop". Back to the question again - on what basis? Let them try and if it fails, well then you can come back and gloat. But why not advertise and try?

Simon

SimonMaher · 31-12-2015 10:33pm

xband wrote: »

We're not way behind.

Finland abandoned DAB entirely 10 years ago, Sweden isn't sure about it nor is Iceland and none of those countries have any plans to switch off FM.

Radio is about great content and delivery, not about pushing a technology agenda.

Irish radio is light years ahead of a lot of places in terms of content. How that content reaches people is largely irrelevant.

Norway is highly unusual in its push to switch off FM.

XBand, you are completely right in that this is all about content delivery rather than technology. That is the best possible reason to make the quality content that Irish radio produces available via the maximum amount of platforms though isn't it? I'm not advocating an FM switch off, nor do I see online or DAB or whatever comes down the tracks as a panacea - I'm just saying, lets make the content available in whatever way we can and the listeners will make the decision whether to tune in/buy a receiver/use their data or whatever.

Simon

IsaacWunder · 31-12-2015 10:48pm

Mr Sea Wolf wrote: »

What a load of garbage

Great rebuttal.

IsaacWunder · 31-12-2015 10:52pm

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

maybe thats what is needed *IS* for FM to be phased out (switch off) in Ireland and force people to switch to DAB (read that as DAB+) - they have done it with switching off analogue UHF for the TV system and everyone had to go out and buy new Saorview equipped tellys and people did it, now have better pictures and sounds. UHf analogue was/is old hat ... FM is old hat and antiquated ....

No what's needed is to roll out DAB nationwide instead of just the cities. No need to force anyone, just give people a choice.

xband · 31-12-2015 10:58pm

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

maybe thats what is needed *IS* for FM to be phased out (switch off) in Ireland and force people to switch to DAB (read that as DAB+) - they have done it with switching off analogue UHF for the TV system and everyone had to go out and buy new Saorview equipped tellys and people did it, now have better pictures and sounds. UHf analogue was/is old hat ... FM is old hat and antiquated ....

It wouldn't though. They'd just go over to Internet radio and many might end up just not listening to local stuff at all anymore if you did that.

It would be an incredibly risky move for any commercial station. To the likes of BBC or NRK it doesn't matter as they don't sell ads and will get huge state backing regardless.

It's a fragile enough advertising market, especially beyond the Dublin, Cork and National stations. Nobody in their right mind would shut of FM.

We still use UHF. We just moved from PAL to DVB-T using MPEG4. There were enormous advantages in terms of quality as that moved us from analogue 625 (576 active) lines 4:3 to 1080 lines in 16:9 and brought an EPG and a load of new features.

DAB really provides very limited advantages other than possibly more channels although that hasn't really materialised in Ireland.

Mr Sea Wolf · 01-01-2016 12:43am

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

maybe thats what is needed *IS* for FM to be phased out (switch off) in Ireland and force people to switch to DAB (read that as DAB+) - they have done it with switching off analogue UHF for the TV system and everyone had to go out and buy new Saorview equipped tellys and people did it, now have better pictures and sounds. UHf analogue was/is old hat ... FM is old hat and antiquated ....

facepalm

end of the road · 01-01-2016 1:48am

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

maybe thats what is needed *IS* for FM to be phased out (switch off) in Ireland and force people to switch to DAB (read that as DAB+) - they have done it with switching off analogue UHF for the TV system and everyone had to go out and buy new Saorview equipped tellys and people did it, now have better pictures and sounds. UHf analogue was/is old hat ... FM is old hat and antiquated ....

i don't agree. dab should be an extension of the terrestrial broadcast system, not a replacement for the earlier methods

Mr Sea Wolf wrote: »

facepalm

for what exactly. the chap clearly isn't as knowledgeable in relation to this stuff as others on here. instead of scoffing, maybe tell him why you believe his opinion in relation to switching off fm is wrong.

Still no Nationwide DAB Radio

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