Still no Nationwide DAB Radio

Andy From Sligo

xband wrote: »

It wouldn't though. They'd just go over to Internet radio and many might end up just not listening to local stuff at all anymore if you did that.....

Im not sure, if it was marketed properly a lot of people would go out and buy an FM/DAB radio thats available now and at a fraction of the price of an Internet radio - the people who are going to listen to a station or stations on an internet radio that are nnt connected to an Irish radio station or a local one , you have lost that consumer anyway - but if you pushed local radio stations on DAB/DAB+ and the people like local radio station they will carry on listening to it, but through DAB rather than FM ... dont forget that not everyone has or wants internet/broadband .. for those that dont have broadband if they wanted to hear their local radio station and it was on DAB and FM was to be phased or bad reception they will be able to carry on receiving their local radio station. No Internet fees, no plans, no download limits, no caps etc.

The way it is at the moment is that if people want more stations and in excellant digital quality with station name and extra info there is nothing there apart from Internet radio if you havent got a DAB signal in your area ... and if you havent got broadband or a cap or fair usage policy on your broadband plan you can only fall back on FM. -

Ok - I think all avenues should open up for Ireland and nationwide (not just 50% in certain areas of Ireland), seeing as this technology has been invented and is (can be) available right now
1.)FM (available but weak signal in places leading to interference)
2.)DAB (not available across Ireland)
3.)Internet radio (available if you have good broadband without caps)

... Then let people decide.

I still think then if people start listening to DAB/DAB+ / Internet Radio and less and less people remain to listen to FM any more ditch it and push the other radios more like DAB and Internet which can help boost the purchases of them the same way Ditching UHF TV's had boosted people to go out and buy a new TV with saorview tuner built in.

xband

Just on a technical point since this is a techie forum, we didn't ditch UHF - we still broadcast DVB-T on UHF.

The only thing we ditched was analogue PAL (System I).

Irish television originally broadcast on VHF using System I 625 lines and with a simulcast on System A 405 lines, the old Marconi EMI system used in Britain as many people had old UK spec TVs in overspill areas. This allowed backward compatibility.

We broadcast PAL colour and System I 625 line on VHF right up into the early 2000s.
UHF had replaced it in most areas by then.

UHF TV continues, it's just now digital.

Andy From Sligo

xband wrote: »

Just on a technical point since this is a techie forum, we didn't ditch UHF - we still broadcast DVB-T on UHF.

The only thing we ditched was analogue PAL (System I).

Irish television originally broadcast on VHF using System I 625 lines and with a simulcast on System A 405 lines, the old Marconi EMI system used in Britain as many people had old UK spec TVs in overspill areas. This allowed backward compatibility.

We broadcast PAL colour and System I 625 line on VHF right up into the early 2000s.
UHF had replaced it in most areas by then.

UHF TV continues, it's just now digital.

Yes sorry my bad. Yes you are absolutely right UHF is still used, I should have got my facts right and meant that Analogue was ditched for DVB digital broadcasting on the UHF band.

Andy From Sligo

so someone mentioned earlier in the thread about if I have a very poor weak FM signal then it wont be any better with DAB/DAB+ or I wont be able to get a DAB signal at all. Is that the case then? - is DAB transmit not stronger signal than FM? Sorry I am not up on the technical, all I know is that DAB radio sounds to me far superior and clearer than FM.

xband

DAB has a tendency to turn into that "bubbling mud noise" when in low signal areas. Analogue FM can still be listenable but crackly.

Andy From Sligo

I try to get my head around this one. Ocean FM Studios are based in Just outside Sligo in Collooney , and i am presuming their broadcasting FM mast is at their studio in Collooney? - But when I am tuning in my FM radio I can get iRadio (which is based in Galway and transmitter in Galway presumably) a lot clearer and in stereo - same when i am auto-tuning on the FM radio it skips past OceanFM but stops at iRado. how am I getting better signal from a galway based radio station than my local radio station oceanFm? - same when im in the car on the car radio in Sligo, oceanfm can get 'shooshy' but iradio and 2fm and TodayFM can all be pretty clear - is it to do with different powers of the transmitters where they are broadcasting from?

Infoanon

xband wrote: »

DAB has a tendency to turn into that "bubbling mud noise" when in low signal areas. Analogue FM can still be listenable but crackly.

Would DAB not be you either have a signal or you have nothing?

Infoanon

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

so someone mentioned earlier in the thread about if I have a very poor weak FM signal then it wont be any better with DAB/DAB+ or I wont be able to get a DAB signal at all. Is that the case then? - is DAB transmit not stronger signal than FM? Sorry I am not up on the technical, all I know is that DAB radio sounds to me far superior and clearer than FM.

DAB transmits on a higher frequency than 'band II' aka 'FM' radio stations so an FM signal from the same site at the same power should be superior.

DAB does not sound superior - the bit rates for many of the services are low.

To answer the question below - FM is all about antenna height followed by power.

david23

xband wrote: »

DAB has a tendency to turn into that "bubbling mud noise" when in low signal areas. Analogue FM can still be listenable but crackly.

The "bubbling mud noise" is only present on the original DAB, as used in the UK. With DAB+ the audio fades out to silence as the signal becomes too weak for the radio to decode it.

Most countries that are recent adopters (e.g. Germany & the Netherlands) are using DAB+ (typically with bit rates of 64k-80k).

Infoanon wrote: »

DAB transmits on a higher frequency than 'band II' aka 'FM' radio stations so an FM signal from the same site at the same power should be superior.

DAB uses VHF Band III (174-230 MHz) but the transmitter powers used are much lower than FM - typically 10kW for a main DAB transmitter.

Andy From Sligo

is DAB+ backwards compatible? ie - if Ireland ran DAB+ network could you use an existing DAB radio and it would work albeit lower audio quality of mp2 instead of aac ?

Trick of the Tail

All recent dab radios are dab and dab+ compatible. By recent I mean manufactured in the last 5 years or so.

A DAB radio cannot decide a dab+ stream.

And re the earlier question, Ocean does not transmit FM from Collooney. It's transmitters are on Truskmore, and Mount Charles. And Glencolumbcill I think.

IRadio, being a regional station, has a number of transmitters, one being also on Truskmore, but also another 20 or so dotted around the nw, Midlands and ne.

marno21

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

I try to get my head around this one. Ocean FM Studios are based in Just outside Sligo in Collooney , and i am presuming their broadcasting FM mast is at their studio in Collooney? - But when I am tuning in my FM radio I can get iRadio (which is based in Galway and transmitter in Galway presumably) a lot clearer and in stereo - same when i am auto-tuning on the FM radio it skips past OceanFM but stops at iRado. how am I getting better signal from a galway based radio station than my local radio station oceanFm? - same when im in the car on the car radio in Sligo, oceanfm can get 'shooshy' but iradio and 2fm and TodayFM can all be pretty clear - is it to do with different powers of the transmitters where they are broadcasting from?

No, the majority of radio station's transmitters are not based at the station's premises however there are a few exceptions (e.g. Radio na Gaeltachta in Carraroe).

In Sligo, all radio stations are broadcast from Truskmore mountain above the town. There is a difference in power though, the RTE stations and Today FM have a power of 100kW whereas iRadio (104.4) and Ocean FM (102.5) are only 5kW.

L1011

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

and i am presuming their broadcasting FM mast is at their studio in Collooney?

Very few stations broadcast from their studio premises. Ocean have multiple transmitters to cover their service area, as well as operate their North/South split (although if they actually split shows or even ads anymore I don't know; but they still have "OCEAN S" / "OCEAN N")

xband

You'd typically want the studios somewhere useful like a city / town centre and the transmitters on a high point.

Usually, they've a microwave link from the studios to the transmission site. Any antennae you might see on the roof of a local radio station would typically be point-to-point line of sight microwave link.

Andy From Sligo

marno21 wrote: »

No, the majority of radio station's transmitters are not based at the station's premises however there are a few exceptions (e.g. Radio na Gaeltachta in Carraroe).

In Sligo, all radio stations are broadcast from Truskmore mountain above the town. There is a difference in power though, the RTE stations and Today FM have a power of 100kW whereas iRadio (104.4) and Ocean FM (102.5) are only 5kW.

If iRadio (104.4) and Ocean FM (102.5) both transmit at 5Kw of power I wonder why the reception is very weak for OceanFM at my end? - and even if i put the FM radio in auto seek mode it doesnt store Ocean into memory but stores iRadio

Patty O Furniture

Pardon my ignorance, but what actually is DAB, I've often seen it in shops, is it like getting a local station in another county?

Thanks.

marno21

Patty O Furniture wrote: »

Pardon my ignorance, but what actually is DAB, I've often seen it in shops, is it like getting a local station in another county?

Thanks.

No. The most convenient way to listen to a local station in a different county would be using the Internet, if building a house atop a high hill is not feasable.

DAB is a method of broadcasting radio stations digitally, similar to how Saorview transmits TV signals digitally as opposed to the old analogue system. Whilst Saorview (DVB-T, digital video broadcasting - terrestrial, DAB is digital audio broadcasting) provides the user with several advantages: better video + audio quality, programme info, digital teletext, more channels etc, DAB doesn't really offer many more advantages compared to FM radio as it's quite an outdated technology. It also has drawbacks such as requiring more transmitters to cover the same area & using more power to listen.

Regardless, DAB coverage in Ireland is limited to Dublin, Cork and Limerick cities, the north east and parts of Co. Kildare & Wicklow

Andy From Sligo

It stands for digital audio broadcasting. Gives you more choice and clearer audio than fm (if you have a good signal) - I think to get a local station in another county you have to have an internet radio and have broadband internet. With dab no subscription or broadband needed you just pick it up like fm with the aerial. in ireland DAB, if you can get a DAB signal where you live, you would get a handful of stations like the normal rate and today fm etc, in the UK Dab you get a plethora of DAB radio stations, with internet radio you get a massive amount and radio stations from all around the world local and national. Whereas an internet radio could set you back over 100euro you can pick up a DAB radio in ireland for as little as 20euro in the shops

Patty O Furniture

Thanks, it just means better quality, rather than twisting the aerial or leaning the radio on a window to get better reception.

A niece of a neighbour visiting down the country & was listening to her local radio & showed me the app on the phone, she mentioned she was gonna get him a DAB radio & must have picked it up wrong there, afaik he got an old type of radio - BUSH i think it was, not too sure it's DAB, didn't really look,
As you mention on coverage, we live in the north west, can get iRadio, but not too sure on Ocean.

xband

It wouldn't necessarily mean anything for coverage.

In fact, in weak signal areas it might just mean no radio at all rather than crackly FM as weak signal = no audio for DAB.

Main thing about DAB is it could provide more channels - if there's a market to provide them to. As yet, that hasn't been the case here and commercial DAB hasn't been successful.

SimonMaher

xband wrote: »

Main thing about DAB is it could provide more channels - if there's a market to provide them to. As yet, that hasn't been the case here and commercial DAB hasn't been successful.

You mean that commercial DAB hasn't been tried. Quite a difference there

Simon

xband

There have been commercial stations in the MUXes.

Are they even simulcasting TodayFM and NewsTalk anymore?

former total

xband wrote: »

It wouldn't necessarily mean anything for coverage.

In fact, in weak signal areas it might just mean no radio at all rather than crackly FM as weak signal = no audio for DAB.

Main thing about DAB is it could provide more channels - if there's a market to provide them to. As yet, that hasn't been the case here and commercial DAB hasn't been successful.

See, this is my difficulty with DAB. How do you market it to the public, what's the selling point?

Better sound quality? Maybe, maybe not. But it'll be much easier to get a signal? No, not really. A huge array of channels? No, not really.

How do you convince the public that they need DAB in their lives?

xband

You get short lived or dead end technologies like this though. I see DAB as being a bit like trying to market ISDN to home consumers. It simply doesn't provide them with anything they need or want and it's old technology.

Internet broadcasting is where this is all going. Like it or not, vastly more traffic will be going through Spotify, Apple Music, Google Play and TuneIn Radio than DAB will ever see listeners.

Irish broadcasters need to be positioning themselves with good infrastructure to ensure quality streaming and ensuring they're on all of those platforms, not lashing money into DAB.

SimonMaher

xband wrote: »

There have been commercial stations in the MUXes.

Are they even simulcasting TodayFM and NewsTalk anymore?

There has not been nor is there a commercially operating MUX. There have been some technical trials (and there is one ongoing at the moment) but there is no commercial MUX anywhere in the country. The only permanent DAB presence is the RTE Mux which just carries their own bouquet of stations.

Having DAB (+) as a platform is about far more than just having a transmitter and a few streams inputting. It's about marketing the platform, marketing the services themselves and putting a proposition together that will attract stations and listeners.

Simon

xband

SimonMaher wrote: »

There has not been nor is there a commercially operating MUX. There have been some technical trials (and there is one ongoing at the moment) but there is no commercial MUX anywhere in the country. The only permanent DAB presence is the RTE Mux which just carries their own bouquet of stations.

Having DAB (+) as a platform is about far more than just having a transmitter and a few streams inputting. It's about marketing the platform, marketing the services themselves and putting a proposition together that will attract stations and listeners.

Simon

All of which costs serious money, which will have to come from pretty cash strapped commercial radio stations and public funding at RTE and thus cut the budget for something useful.

SimonMaher

xband wrote: »

All of which costs serious money, which will have to come from pretty cash strapped commercial radio stations and public funding at RTE and thus cut the budget for something useful.

So we're agreed that the statement "commercial DAB hasn't been successful" isn't correct? Hasn't ever happened here so can't be judged one way or the other.

Of course it will cost serious money, any proper platform or business developments cost money. Key here is that nobody would be forced to be involved, nobody would be forced to pay anything.

Simon

end of the road

marno21 wrote: »

DAB doesn't really offer many more advantages compared to FM radio as it's quite an outdated technology.

mp2 dab (ordinary dab) is outdated yes. dab+ (which uses mp4) on the other hand isn't and can offer a greater amount of stations on a mux.

xband wrote: »

It wouldn't necessarily mean anything for coverage.

In fact, in weak signal areas it might just mean no radio at all rather than crackly FM as weak signal = no audio for DAB.

Main thing about DAB is it could provide more channels - if there's a market to provide them to. As yet, that hasn't been the case here and commercial DAB hasn't been successful.

have you not been reading the thread? we have all ready been through this. there is no legal framework for dab. therefore, nobody can trial it on a commercial basis long term. if the framework had been implemented and yet no interest then we would know and your point would be valid. until then, there is no evidence to back up such claims.

SimonMaher wrote: »

You mean that commercial DAB hasn't been tried. Quite a difference there

Simon

your wasting your time simon. they either can't grasp, or are refusing to get it

xband wrote: »

There have been commercial stations in the MUXes.

Are they even simulcasting TodayFM and NewsTalk anymore?

the commercials were only on it during a test which i believe was comreg licenced. once that expired the commercials could go no further for the reasons i've told you up above.

xband wrote: »

You get short lived or dead end technologies like this though. I see DAB as being a bit like trying to market ISDN to home consumers. It simply doesn't provide them with anything they need or want and it's old technology.

Internet broadcasting is where this is all going. Like it or not, vastly more traffic will be going through Spotify, Apple Music, Google Play and TuneIn Radio than DAB will ever see listeners.

Irish broadcasters need to be positioning themselves with good infrastructure to ensure quality streaming and ensuring they're on all of those platforms, not lashing money into DAB.

dab+ is not old technology. forget about ordinary dab itself, irrelevant. internet broadcasting will be a minority for a good while yet. spotify and similar are not broadcasting.

xband wrote: »

All of which costs serious money, which will have to come from pretty cash strapped commercial radio stations and public funding at RTE and thus cut the budget for something useful.

says who? we don't know anything as there is nothing in place. its amazing how some know so much about something that there is no framework in place for. "ah but but the uk" isn't evidence and doesn't cut it i'm afraid.

xband

Apple Music is already broadcasting in very much the traditional sense carrying BBC world service radio and its own Beats 1 station which includes live presentation.

There's absolutely no reason why these are or will be niche.

Spotify for example had 60 million users in Jan 15 and has been experiencing massive growth Apple Music is available to every iPhone, iPad and android device.

It's DAB that's niche.

Also DAB+ is almost ten years old at this stage. It's using steaming AAC+ which appeared in about 2003.

In the interim smartphones arrived en mass and increasingly cheaply and you can access pretty large data bundles, even on prepay, relatively cheaply.

Domestic broadband is also almost all totally uncapped and very fast compared to a decade + ago.

You're in an area where people are getting their TV from Netflix and Sky VOD services ...

Give it a few more years and even linear broadcast television of the traditional type has a very limited future.

The whole broadcasting sector is about to go through a massive change because of ubiquitous fast broadband and cheap, portable media consumption devices - smartphones, phablets and tablets.

Realistically, you'd be bonkers to be putting your money on DAB as something likely to ever play a major role in that.

I know people will be "oh but what about X who has dial up?"
The facts are that most people have access to fast broadband and that's speeding up and the footprint is constantly expanding too.

Anyway, I've no intentions of engaging in a grumpy nerd war on here. Good luck with your DAB/DAB+ ... You'll need it!

end of the road

xband wrote: »

you'd be bonkers to be putting your money on DAB

well, as maybe, but one should be able to have the opportunity to do so if they wish. after all, its their money. it costs nothing to implement a framework in terms of content and licencing. if no interest after that, so be it.