Still no Nationwide DAB Radio

65535

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/98240288#Comment_98240288

Same here - have not listened to any radio station in years - thankfully

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120925605#Comment_120925605

ultimately yes.

transmission costs are lower then fm as i mentioned and as well as that, it makes the high barriers and high expensivity and regulatory environement that is practiced in terms of fm, am etc untenable which means a liberalisation of radio, which increases choice to the listener.

the stations can decide themselves how to operate and if the content is good people will listen, if it's not the station will fail.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120926170#Comment_120926170

This has not happened in the UK so why should we expect it to happen in Eire (especially since there is zero interest in making it happen among those who matter) ?

Glaceon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120925370#Comment_120925370

That wasn't my experience. RTE DAB was quite solid between Drogheda and Dublin. I can't see how an app can get around a bad mobile signal.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120925870#Comment_120925870

yes, people have been arguing for a decade about how the BAI are preventing operators from deciding to make a business decision as to whether they would like or not, to use a technology to provide more, smaller stations to increase listener choice and diversity of formats.

using their own business models and ability to make a decision as to provide what content they think their audience would like, rather then how civil servants decide how they must operate, and what content listeners are getting whether they want it or not.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120926030#Comment_120926030

i wouldn't count on the sat transmissions remaining long term either.

limnam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120926223#Comment_120926223

I didn't state it wasn't solid between drogheda and dublin I said there will be simmilar areas that have poor DAB signal

e.g. 15 minutes out of Cork city and I would lose DAB.

There will always be coverage problems somewhere.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120926223#Comment_120926223

Its my experience that the mobile network is much more solid than the radio network.

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120926170#Comment_120926170

Transmission costs may be lower for a mature network like the UK with the number of services available but hardly comparable if in Ireland we had the capital costs of rolling out a new network.

Liberalisation of the radio market in the way you suggest would be terrible for all the operators except for the big 2. I'm not sure how there are any pros to destroying the Irish local and regional radio market and it's unique set of positive features in favour of glorified Spotify playlists with adverts in between.

Glaceon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120926256#Comment_120926256

Even this morning I had RTE Gold rebuffer on me on the train around Malahide. I don’t understand how streaming has so many fans, it’s always been crap for me when on the move.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120926347#Comment_120926347

The problem is back in the days when RTE Gold was on DAB the coverage was never in the whole country. Just Dublin, Cork, Limerick, and maybe Waterford and Wexford? So people didn't take it serious as the reception cut out in between.

In my irony, streaming probably has so many fans to find another excuse for disliking DAB.

Remember Switzerland has implemented DAB with success, and the country is to a certain degree full of mountains and valleys and DAB reception is excellent.

DAB also has a lot of security and emergency functions for warning. Another thing, as Switzerland is good on civil defense matters.

It's only hard to position technical and practical advantages of a new solution if the general population don't want it.

"now it's too late" "the ship has departed" "people don't know what it is" "radios are too expensive"

The list will go on, I am sure, there will be more excuses.

:-)

lertsnim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120928007#Comment_120928007

RTÉ never ran a DAB service in the south east.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120928615#Comment_120928615

hence the maybe and the question mark.

I don't know it anymore.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120926261#Comment_120926261

local radio in ireland in it's current form is likely to be on borrowed time, liberalisation is ultimately going to come in the end in some form whether it's wanted or not as that will be the only way for the industry to survive.

a couple of the locals will survive, maybe beat as the only regional but the rest who knows.

apart from a good few people working in the industry which is great, what exactly are these positives you speak of with the current set up? because from what i can see while we have a few stations it's more or less the same format on the majority of them.

most regional radio is partially or fully networked, only beat survives as a stand alone.

absolutely nothing wrong with a good duke box station with a wide and regularly updated playlist with adds, not everyone wants much of the speech content that exists on some stations such as forced banter and pretend laughter etc.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120926347#Comment_120926347

the reason i like it is that i have so much choice it's unreal and i can have the music i like when i want it, which i barely ever got from any legal radio station in this country apart from a couple of hours at the weekend.

hence only ever listening to pirate radio because it provided what i want.

however i am certainly not blind to the faults of streaming, and am well aware it can be unreliable in certain areas which is a problem.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120928007#Comment_120928007

DAB also has a lot of security and emergency functions for warning. 

What can DAB do in this respect that FM cannot?

Dan Jaman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120925605#Comment_120925605

The Foreign and Commonwealth Office foots the bill for the World Service - has done for years, and continues to do so, although I seem to recall there was a bit of a dust-up about yanking funding a few years ago. It seems to be back on, though.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/2021/world-service-funding

KildareP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120922483#Comment_120922483

If you liberalise FM then by logic you have to liberalise DAB.

Limiting ownership is in effect what you are currently rallying against - the BAI limits the number of broadcast licenses allowed on air and as a result there is no opportunity to secure a DAB-only license.

Simply simulcasting existing FM stations onto DAB serves absolutely no real benefit on its own, so while it's possible, there's little real point in doing so. Open up additional licenses for DAB only and the FM operators will naturally be unhappy with a sudden shift in their operating environment.

Thus, you must either limit DAB in a similar fashion (which is what is currently happening to the point that no DAB licenses have been issued) or open up FM in a similar fashion. But, if you do that, existing FM operators are not going to be happy to continue to pay license fees and be obligated to the less attractive aspects of their license if a competitor can come along and go on air without any of those restrictions.

OK, so you can limit the number of stations allowed by any one owner. That, too, can have unintended consequences. You raise the point of the UK. Global sold a package of their stations to Communicorp UK under competition rules. What did Communicorp do? They immediately signed an agreement with Global to operate the existing station brands under syndication. Save for a few mandatory local hours at some obscure hours of the night, they take the exact same network feed as all other directly owned Global stations for each brand. A Global station, just a different name on the license.

The juke box stations in the UK are as tightly playlisted as any FM equivalent. The playlist is very narrow (e.g. Heart's decade stations are basically the Top 40 of that decade - there are no B-sides, album tracks or more obscure releases from well known artists) and rotation is high amongst Top 10 songs. Many of them are transmitted in low-bitrate mono. They are almost entirely automated with some voice tracking in peak hours - the only live aspect to most is when they simulcast with the FM parent's broadcast (e.g. Capital Dance, Heart Dance).

Absolute Radio is perhaps the only exception to this I can think of where it's one show and presenter across all of their stations but they're able to dynamically play out music that's relevant to each station's genre in between links, all done live. But, they're literally the sole exception.

lertsnim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120928737#Comment_120928737

I was only confirming it. Relax.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120930461#Comment_120930461

There is a video on that, as an example. It's a nice function, good to have. DAB+ radios can also get this funcion out of standby mode.

Also it often sadens me, if new technology which can actually help people is being frowned upon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpgwbn7rFG0

Also here:

https://www.iis.fraunhofer.de/content/dam/iis/de/doc/ame/FraunhoferIIS_Product-Sheet_EWF.pdf

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120930854#Comment_120930854

the current FMERS won't have to continue with the high levels of restrictions with an opening up of the market, in fact the regulator has been gradually relaxing various aspects of licenses for years so ultimately eventually there is going to be a point where there will be a full relaxation because it will no longer be viable to continue with the ultra high cost base model we operate and the out of touch level of restrictions that go with it.

the beauty about DAB and a fuller opening of the market in general is that all types of radio can be catered for, for every heart decade station there are others providing different and better content whether it be on a local basis or in various areas.

most of the main stations in the UK on DAB are using old standard DAB which is MP2 yes, but that would not be used here, it's only still being used as there are still a good number of old radios in circulation but that will change as will mp2 be fazed out.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120932082#Comment_120932082

Or you could just use the emergency alert function on people's phones, and broadcast the warnings on FM.

Also it often sadens me, if new technology which can actually help people is being frowned upon.

You seem to be taking this very personally. I don't think anyone is saying DAB is a bad thing, it's just not a good use of public money in 2023 and beyond, given the ubiquity of mobile internet and the fact that we're pretty much at market saturation just with FM.

Antenna

The FM RDS system allows transmission of an Emergency or Alarm flag, which would allow receivers to come out of mute/low volume or playing prerecorded music etc (such as MP3, CDs and tapes in the past) to play the emergency announcement to be heard. If individual broadcasters are set up to active this function is another matter, but it is untrue that only DAB has this.

Also the DAB (as well as FM RDS) radio has to be powered up, even if the sound is off (not in standby in the usual sense of the word) to be activated for these announcements, so in both cases not feasible on battery powered receivers when not playing a station.

"PTY31 is reserved for emergency announcements in the event of natural disasters or other major calamities." from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Data_System

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120933333#Comment_120933333

I don't take things very personally. I am just sadened how easily beneficial new technology is dismissed with shallow or negative opinions.

I am also surprised about two totally contrary radio markets, the Brits and NI next door have DAB, Ireland not.

Fears of foreign ownership are often unfoundend. Just think how today already many radio stations in the Republic of Ireland are either owned by Bauer or by somebody in Northen Ireland?

Yes you can use smart phones as well, but remember the internet can also be blocked by high data usage and cyber attacks. Radio doesn't have that.

I think this is also the reason, why Switzerland was promoting DAB+ so much and most likely also other countries. They needed a more secure way to deliver emergency information than apps on a cell phone.

If it's not for DAB, Radio would be dying a slow death. Give it at least one generation. I also don't think that the young generation in Ireland bothers with FM anymore, for them it's only the smart phone and streams there.

Well, I don’t know what kind of early 2000s 3G mobile phones you all have but I’ve been driving around rural Donegal for the last few days, listening to streaming and podcasts without any signifiant issues at all.

I also honestly don’t get what the big deal with wanting parallel national infrastructure rolled out to listen to an playlisted golden oldies station. It’s hardly adding choice.

Also why would BBC be available on Irish DAB? BBC drove and continues to drive UK DAB content by throwing UK licence fee money at it non commercially. That’s a huge part of why DAB took off in the UK. The BBC was able to lavish huge money on it in the early days and commercial content took much longer to arrive. RTE simply doesn’t have the scale to do that.

They put a couple of primarily jukebox stations on it and very little extra live content really. Then you’d simulcasting of FM making up most of it. Also the commercial players that tried it either put on some simulcasts (early days of DAB trial had Newstalk etc) but it was just the same feed as FM, so was really only digital for the sake of being able to say “on FM, on digital and online … this is (station name).”

Ireland’s experience seems to parallel Finland, which has also abandoned DAB btw.

DAB suits huge PSBs like BBC and the big networkers followed that model in the UK, which is leading to centralised broadcasting.

The Irish market probably would have suited something like HD Radio with local FM services adding additional content into the mix but that system is U.S. focused and not available here as a standard.

The only thing I think could make DAB useful here might be mini local muxes.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120933482#Comment_120933482

I am also surprised about two totally contrary radio markets, the Brits and NI next door have DAB, Ireland not.

No offence or anything, but this is the most shallow opinion of them all.

The UK is a country of 67 million people (vs 5 million in Ireland), so the viability of commercial radio stations is massively different.

The rollout of DAB in the UK was primarily driven by the BBC, which is an absolute behemoth in terms of resources and content. We have nothing remotely similar here.

The population density of England is many multiples of that in Ireland, meaning one transmitter can reach a lot more people, so the cost per listener is a lot lower. The less densely populated areas of the UK were a lot slower to get DAB (if they even have it now).

All of that means DAB could achieve critical mass more easily, which means there's an incentive for people to actually buy a DAB set, which makes it more attractive for broadcasters, which means more people buy DAB sets, and round and round. Ireland had none of this.

You can only argue whether DAB makes sense for Ireland, and tbh it doesn't. Maybe if we'd done things differently 25 years ago, but now, it's obsolete.

I don't understand how DAB is not vulnerable to cyber attacks. Of course it is.

tinytobe

No offence taken.

Norway has about the same size population, but a more challenging geopgrahy, and from a financial aspect it works.

Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales aren't exactly as densely populated as England.

But if a majority doesn't want DAB than that's it, - whatever the excuse. "It's obsolete" is to be added to the list.

Shoog

I stream whenever I am out in my vehicles, one phone for all vehicles bluetoothed to my headunits. Quality is excellent and it requires very little mobile bandwidth. I listen to a lot of BBC6 and it only really causes me problems around my house where reception is terrible. Radio is barely usable at home and is very poor in much of the region I am located in such that I can only really get RTE 1, 2 and Lyric most of the time.

At home I listen to streamed radio from anywhere in the world over high quality DAC via a €100.00 media box, I have radio on almost all day and I only choose to listen to RTE1 for the news for an hour in the morning and a few hours in the evening when I listen to John Kelly. If I miss my dose of John Kelly I can stream it in my vehicles at any point in the day.

When I don't want to listen to stream radio I can listen to streamed podcasts from anywhere in the world. No need to listen to some droning arsehole paid to fill in time on the radio - all my listening is quality.

How could DAB ever possibly compete with that. Its also not how anyone below the age of 40 would choose to listen to content now days - its a total dead end.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120933333#Comment_120933333

actually, there is no proof that we are anywhere near market saturation at all on a general basis, but rather we are under the ultra high cost base model we operate which isn't proof of anything bar it's own failings and possible long term sustainability.

the current model isn't proof of anything, dispite people using it and it's failings to try and discount alternatives, which is not going to work in 2023.

KildareP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120932410#Comment_120932410

What can change that will reduce the current high cost environment?

The usual requirements - insurance, liability, royalties, studio equipment, maintenance, etc. - don't go away with DAB.

Jukebox stations might be able to supplement an overall service but will not come even close to being able to sustain one on their own while the traditional players stay on the more accessible FM.

OK, if you drop the talk requirement, and every ILR decides to switch to all-music and scale back to skeleton staff, what's the point in having them at all then? Who'd launch a DAB jukebox station if the ILR's filled that gap on the more common FM? Most places you can pick up 3-4 different ILR's with ease on FM (I can get LMFM, KFM, Midlands 103 and East Coast FM at home). If they all picked a different decade - there's your jukebox stations at no extra cost or effort.

Not that I think they would, mind, since talk radio shows and local sports coverage are some of the highest rated in the JNLR for those stations. RTÉ Radio 1 is almost exclusively talk and is the most listened to station in the country by a mile. Therefore, how will a jukebox station attract sufficient listeners away to sustain an advertising income to operate themselves?

End of the day, we are not the UK - simple as. For the same reasons our Freeview equivalent was literally just a technical switchover, as opposed to a sudden arrival of tens of channels, the UK has had a multitude of highly successful AM only stations before DAB ever came along - we've only ever had 1 relatively short lived commercial AM only station and that wasn't even aimed at us!

Transitioning these AM operations to DAB makes perfect sense and is an easy driver of listening to DAB as it often represents an increase in audio quality and functionality. We don't have any AM stations to transition and transitioning or simulcasting FM to DAB offers absolutely no benefit to broadcaster or listener - in fact I'd argue it's a step back given the bitrates ultimately chosen are inferior to what FM can provide, even with DAB+. And since we've never been able to sustain commercial AM stations here, DAB in and of itself doesn't change that, particularly as we are well and truly heading into a global landscape of declining linear broadcasting.