Tenant called out fire brigade on Christmas Day.

L1011

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Dublin (and I think some other places) don't have a charge.

Changed years ago.

AmberGold

Responsibility to pay is the tenants. How would the council / FB know who to bill anyway.

Victor

return guide wrote: »

A smoke detector should not be installed in an apartment, it must be a heat detector. This will eliminate the false alarms caused by toast etc.

Kitchens should have heat detectors, to avoid the burnt toast problem. Other rooms, primarily circulation areas - stairs, corridors, etc. should have smoke detectors.

Del2005

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

There's only a call-out charge in the relatively less-civilized parts of Ireland. Dublin (and I think some other places) don't have a charge.

It's pure madness: I spent a while working in social housing, and few times got calls from tenants about real fires: they were too scared to call the fire service themselves because they were worried about the bill!

OP, the bill goes to the property owner. Yours to pay, unless you have a clause otherwise in the lease. Get your alarm system serviced so that it only goes off when there's a real fire.

Even the Fire fighter's agree it's a stupid idea to charge for calls. What once would have required a tender and 2 people to extinguish a small fire now requires 2 or more tenders and crew in BA to save the building. But some bean counter thinks it's a good idea so it has to be.

return guide

Victor wrote: »

Kitchens should have heat detectors, to avoid the burnt toast problem. Other rooms, primarily circulation areas - stairs, corridors, etc. should have smoke detectors.

Agreed, but what you are describing is an LD system type as referred to in IS 3218.
LD systems are for the protection of individual apts. They are commonly referred to as heat/smoke alarms .

What i believe happened was a smoke detector from the main apt building fire alarm system activated. All apartment buildings are required to have a central fire alarm system designed, installed and commissioned to IS 3218 L3X standard.
( smoke detectors and break glass unit in the landlord areas with a heat detector inside the main door of each apartment with sounders in both the LL and tenants areas ). In this instance I believe from the OP there was a smoke installed instead of a heat which lead to the main system activating.

Unfortunately I have been in many apartment complexes that do not comply.

BTW all newish apartments should have both an L3X and LD system installed, but older one would generally have only an L3X if anything at all.

Marcusm

I have lived in many purpose built/converted apartment blocks with hair trigger heat/smoke detectors. My advice for what it is worth is to establish whether the tenant called immediately on the alarm sounding or waited to see if it was a false alarm (in which case you'd expect it to cease within no more than 60 seconds). If the latter, I'd have words with the tenant whose alarm sounded as they are not acting reasonably; I would look to them to pay the charge as it would have arisen through their selfishness. In the case of the former, I would take it on the chin as the owner of the system but advise the tenant to wait a minute he next time. I wouldn't punish him as he's acting out of an excess of caution, not frivolity.

GardeningGirl

Poor firemen getting called out, very unreasonable!

I don't think you should be liable but I have no professional experience, just my 2 cents!

topmanamillion

I think your probably going to be stumped with the bill. I don't think it's fair but neither are a lot of bills landlords have to pay.
I think a chat with all your tenants about calling the fire brigade would be a good idea. As has been said if they are concerned they should check on the other flats and do a walk around before calling the fire brigade. Equally stress that you certainly want them to call the fire brigade immediately if there is a fire.

CollyFlower

What would happen if a passers-by heard the alarm and called the fire brigade, would the home owner be responsible for the bill?

D

Victor wrote: »

Wrong. The bill goes to the person who benefits from the service.

I once called the FB for a fire that I noticed while out walking. Was the real deal with a prefab down the back of a converted house. Got a call the next week from the Fire brigade asking if I called. I replied that I had. They then asked me if my address was "place where the fire was" I said no, that I had noticed the fire while out walking. She thanked me, said goodbye, and hung up.

Gumbo

return guide wrote: »

A smoke detector should not be installed in an apartment, it must be a heat detector. This will eliminate the false alarms caused by toast etc.

This is a requirement of IS 3218:2013 and the landlord/building owner is responsible for complying with this standard whether they know it or not.

There is no requirement for the fire alarm system to monitored by an alarm receiving center (ARC).

In my expierence the landlord or management company will pay the FB charges and then implement a protocol for any further fire alarm activations.

I hope this helps.

IS3218 is the standard on fire alarms and detection.

Apartments should and must have smoke detection in the living room, circulation area (hall) and I insist on bedrooms too. This is Part B (Fire Safety) of the building regulations.

Del2005

CollyFlower wrote: »

What would happen if a passers-by heard the alarm and called the fire brigade, would the home owner be responsible for the bill?

Or there was no fire alarm but someone called the fire brigade?

TheDoc

To be honest, if I was the tenant and you tried landing the bill on me, I'd be telling you where to shove it. If the full alarm system engaged, the tenant did the right thing. That there was no actual fire or serious incident is irrelevant, the tenant did the responsible thing. (amusing it was the system rigged to the building, and not just someones smoke alarm going of in the apartment)

What would happen if a passers-by heard the alarm and called the fire brigade, would the home owner be responsible for the bill?

A bus was set on fire in my area earlier this year in an act of vandalism (well I heard something else but nvrmind) and I called 999 as the bus was fully ablaze in the street just 50 yards from my front door. Guardaí took a short statement and I'd to confirm I made the call, but no bill arrived to me. Not sure what actually happened after that to be honest, as it was a proper blaze. Is the charge only for when they deem it a waste of time or false alarm?

esforum

CollyFlower wrote: »

What would happen if a passers-by heard the alarm and called the fire brigade, would the home owner be responsible for the bill?

yes, even in dublin.

My lodgers this time last year called DFB the same day they moved in as the piped started banging. They were running thr heating and the fire at the same time while not having the back burner turned on. Pipes got too hot. 500 quid it cost me for the call out.

I swallowed it as the estate agent had not told them there was a back burner like he was supposed to but they were informed that unless it was something genuinely not their fault they would be paying the next one. My insurance paid me back anyway and as I was honest and had landlord insurance it wont effect my claims either

derossi

The charge is only for the recipient of the Service so if you didn't call them and when they landed and you didn't require them then no charge, although you may be billed. If you are billed in that case then just send it back and tell them I didn't use/require them. In the op's case there would be a charge because they were requested and it would go down as false alarm/good intent. The problem with the charges is the confusion it causes, you always hear that it is the caller who pays which it clearly isn't. Also there are waivers available for social welfare recipients, O.A.P.s etc. Delaying calling the Fire Service leads to huge problems. In this case I would suck it up, advise them on the appropriate times to call the brigade and personally I would look in to the respective counties enforcement policy on pursuing the charge if you cannot pay it!

RoadhouseBlues

I live in a block of 6 flats, and I'm on the third floor. The fire alarm on the stairway goes off every couple of months. The landlord doesn't fix it, and its been like that since I moved in. I'm here about 9 years. It is that loud, you can here it the opposite end of the street. Now in saying that, I have never rang the fire brigade. But I can see a day, when there is actually a fire in one of the flats, and when the alarm goes off, we will prob just ignore it, thinking that its just the alarm playing up again. And just to add. I'm on the very top floor and there is no fire escape. Just the main stairs. So its a difficult one.

RainyDay

esforum wrote: »

I swallowed it as the estate agent had not told them there was a back burner like he was supposed to but they were informed that unless it was something genuinely not their fault they would be paying the next one. My insurance paid me back anyway and as I was honest and had landlord insurance it wont effect my claims either

You did the right thing, but it was pretty foolish to rely on a verbal message for something so important. You should have a set of written instructions for the tenant, handed over with the keys, and signed for on receipt.

esforum

RainyDay wrote: »

You did the right thing, but it was pretty foolish to rely on a verbal message for something so important. You should have a set of written instructions for the tenant, handed over with the keys, and signed for on receipt.

Absolutely but I was only letting the property as I was moved abroad for work and I foolishly trusted the estate agent when he said I could jump on the plane no issues as he had everything sorted. He was supposed to manage the property as well but that changed. First time landlord so mistakes will happen

I have since met with them and ran through the a to z of the house and its quirks / issues.

dudara

As a tenant in such a situation, I would pay the fire brigade bill myself. I called the fire brigade, it's my responsibility to pay.

keane2097

What's the point in installing an alarm if you don't want anyone in the building to do anything when they hear it?

The issue here is with the fire alarm going off falsely, not with the tenant responding properly to it.

LL should 100% pay, thank their tenant for being responsible and apologise for their alarm system causing so much pointless stress to their tenants on Xmas day.

keane2097

keane2097 wrote: »

What's the point in installing an alarm if you don't want anyone in the building to do anything when they hear it?
.

It's impossible to prevent false alarms, cooking etc will always set off alarms.

If I hear an alarm I look for a fire or some evidence of it, if I see no evidence I ignore it.

If I was the op I'd would be giving the bill to the tenant simple as that and telling them to not ring the fire brigade in future unless they are willing to pay the call out charge or there is actually a fire.

FrStone

Vera Few Bowl wrote: »

It's impossible to prevent false alarms, cooking etc will always set off alarms.

If I hear an alarm I look for a fire or some evidence of it, if I see no evidence I ignore it.

Don't be silly... False alarms should not happen with the correct alarm system, any fire safety officer will tell you that.

If the apartment block was any bit bigger it would be likely that the fire brigade is automatically called by the alarm as soon as the alarm rings for 60 seconds.

Tennant will be under no obligation to pay, it will have to be paid by the property owners in absence of a management company. This is who would have been liable of a passerby rang 999.

LeeLooLee

Vera Few Bowl wrote: »

It's impossible to prevent false alarms, cooking etc will always set off alarms.

If I hear an alarm I look for a fire or some evidence of it, if I see no evidence I ignore it.

If I was the op I'd would be giving the bill to the tenant simple as that and telling them to not ring the fire brigade in future unless they are willing to pay the call out charge or there is actually a fire.

It's perfectly possible that there is in fact a fire. Just because you can't see any evidence doesn't mean there is no danger. A callout charge payable by the tenant is ridiculous, as are claims that the fire brigade would be out 24/7 otherwise. No, they wouldn't. Most countries have no callout charge. It's up to the individual to decide whether or not it's necessary to call the fire brigade. Yes, sometimes it will be a false alarm, that's life. The alternative is people not calling when they really should.

RainyDay

Vera Few Bowl wrote: »

If I hear an alarm I look for a fire or some evidence of it, if I see no evidence I ignore it.

Have you ever tried looking for evidence of carbon monoxide?

Gumbo

FrStone wrote: »

Don't be silly... False alarms should not happen with the correct alarm system, any fire safety officer will tell you that.

If the apartment block was any bit bigger it would be likely that the fire brigade is automatically called by the alarm as soon as the alarm rings for 60 seconds.

Tennant will be under no obligation to pay, it will have to be paid by the property owners in absence of a management company. This is who would have been liable of a passerby rang 999.

Fire safety officer here, false alarms will and always happen. People smoking, cooking, people carrying a pan of just cooked stir fry over to the dining area can set off some detectors.

People spraying deodorant can set off some systems, it all depends on if it's an optical or ionisation system. They both offer different characteristics of smoke detection and they both have their pros and cons.

That's why when we design houses, we specify that a mixture of these two types are interconnected throughout the dwelling to try maximise the performance of the system. And it's also why you will see different types of smoke detectors in any one dwelling, even new builds in case you ever wondered why the builder didn't just buy 100 of the same detector and plonk them everywhere.

RainyDay wrote: »

Have you ever tried looking for evidence of carbon monoxide?

CO alarm is on a different system and will have a different sounder and are not required to be interlinked. When one goes off within your dwelling, simply open all doors and windows and shut off all appliances and wait for the concentration to to disappear. Then chase down the faulty appliance.

kceire AIFireE.

RainyDay

RainyDay wrote: »

Have you ever tried looking for evidence of carbon monoxide?

What's that's got to do with fire alarms, totally different thing.

RainyDay

Vera Few Bowl wrote: »

What's that's got to do with fire alarms, totally different thing.

You've just recommended ignoring alarms unless you can see evidence of fire. Is the average tenant going to understand the difference between a CO alarm and a smoke alarm when the alarm is going off?

Telling anyone to ignore an alarm is a bad idea.

RainyDay

RainyDay wrote: »

You've just recommended ignoring alarms unless you can see evidence of fire. Is the average tenant going to understand the difference between a CO alarm and a smoke alarm when the alarm is going off?

Telling anyone to ignore an alarm is a bad idea.

So your saying you should ring the fire brigade every time an alarm goes off? Madness.

LeeLooLee

Vera Few Bowl wrote: »

So your saying you should ring the fire brigade every time an alarm goes off? Madness.

So you ignore it and your neighbour dies of carbon monoxide poisoning. Which is worse? I would say an alarm which is not turned off after a reasonable amount of time is a cause for concern.

Gumbo

RainyDay wrote: »

You've just recommended ignoring alarms unless you can see evidence of fire. Is the average tenant going to understand the difference between a CO alarm and a smoke alarm when the alarm is going off?

Telling anyone to ignore an alarm is a bad idea.

Carbon Monoxide alarms are not interlinked and will only go off within the apartment itself, not throughout the building.

Also, the apartment may only contain one, 2 at he most CO detectors depending on the layout and the M&E locations. TGD Part J (Heat Producing Appliances).