What are the Pros and Cons of breeding your male Dog?

DBB

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

But I think that a few people around here have an unreasonable expectation of what a reputable breeder is.... There would be no dogs in the country, apart from a few in the hands of a few enthusiasts, if everyone had the same attitude that is prevalent here.

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

If only the people considered responsible by the likes on this forum were allowed to breed, pups would be 10 times the price "responsoble breeders" charge now.

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I know this place can be a bit of an echo chamber with the same opinions being spouted and accepted as a universal truth, but still. If only those who pass the extremely stringent boards breeders test, you would have at most a couple of hundred dogs bred in Ireland each year.

Oppenheimer1, would you refrain from dissing the people who use this forum please? You're welcome to make your point, but not at the expense of disrespecting the forum or its users.
Do not reply to this post on thread.
Thanks,
DBB

tk123

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

A pedigree pup got through the IKC can cost upwards of €1000 currently. And you want to reduce supply even further? I know this place can be a bit of an echo chamber with the same opinions being spouted and accepted as a universal truth, but still. If only those who pass the extremely stringent boards breeders test, you would have at most a couple of hundred dogs bred in Ireland each year.

They would cost multiples of what they sell for now. Pets would be denied to thousands of families.

Generalise much? Neither of my dogs cost upwards of €1000 and the ones that do cost that because of the medical expense needed to breed them. You can't scrimp on that.

IMO dogs are like kids in that you shouldn't have them if you can't afford to support them for life and for anything life throws at them/you. The first thing I did when I was laid off was make sure I had money put by for my dog's pet insurance. I didn't add a second dog until I was back working and could afford to pay for her and anything that might crop up.

Sh!t happens - they get sick or they cut their paws or the country goes into recession and somebody abroad can do your job for €5 a day so you get laid off. Such is life.

awanderer

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

A pedigree pup got through the IKC can cost upwards of €1000 currently. And you want to reduce supply even further? I know this place can be a bit of an echo chamber with the same opinions being spouted and accepted as a universal truth, but still. If only those who pass the extremely stringent boards breeders test, you would have at most a couple of hundred dogs bred in Ireland each year.

They would cost multiples of what they sell for now. Pets would be denied to thousands of families.

I spent months going to every dog shows that was on on the west coast because a friend of mine, having lost his beautiful Golden Retriever to old age wanted, 2 years later, to have another Golden Retriever that wouldn't suffer from the comparison with the first one. I found dog shows to be very sad places. My friend ended up buying his Golden Retriever from a reputable breeder from the east coast. The dog is absolutly lovely but also has a heart murmure. When my friend, distraught, called the breeder to inform him/her, he had the feeling of being accused of somehow inventing the heart murmure and the breeder seemed only obsessed about him sending the dogs papers back.
So there is not one opinion about reputable breeders here. After that experience, I had absolutely no interest in buying a dog from an Irish breeder reputable or not.
I ended up getting my dog (a golden labrador) from a rescue and the funny thing is that I am regularly asked what breeder I got him from (I didn't even know he was a pure lab when i contacted the rescue).
So I don't think that you should, or need to, pay hundreds of euros to buy a dog. On the other hand it seems to me that it is basic common sense that you should not ever consider buying a dog if you do not have at least those hundreds of euros in a bank. Dogs break their legs, catch disease... and thousands get put down every year because for some weird reason, some people believe that everyone should have the right to own a dog independantly of their means.
Several people here run rescues so I am sure they will have a common opinion, which seems to bother you, about people breeding dogs for fun or to make a few bob. I don't work in any rescue, only volunteer and even that rarely but know enough about what happens to Irish dog daily not to see the prospect of only a few dogs being bred every year as a sad thing.

Cherry Blossom

awanderer wrote: »

I spent months going to every dog shows that was on on the west coast because a friend of mine, having lost his beautiful Golden Retriever to old age wanted, 2 years later, to have another Golden Retriever that wouldn't suffer from the comparison with the first one. I found dog shows to be very sad places. My friend ended up buying his Golden Retriever from a reputable breeder from the east coast. The dog is absolutly lovely but also has a heart murmure. When my friend, distraught, called the breeder to inform him/her, he had the feeling of being accused of somehow inventing the heart murmure and the breeder seemed only obsessed about him sending the dogs papers back.
So there is not one opinion about reputable breeders here.

I had my name down for a pup from a breeder in England for over a year. When pups were born she rang me to let me know I was next on the list for a Blue boy. She rang me at 2, 4 and 6 weeks with updates. Two days after the 6 week update she rang me and said she was just back from the vet and the pup had a grade 2-3 heart murmer and would not be able for long walks or strenuous activity. She said not to make a decision straight away but to think about it for a week and get back to her. I took advice from a fellow boardsie and decided against taking the pup. If I were the breeder I think I would have kept the pup but at least she had the checks done and kept me well informed. She returned my deposit and said I could have pick of her next litter if I didn't find a dog in the meantime. In the end I went with a breeder in Northern Ireland. The only breeder in the Republic I had considered told me he did not send his pups to people he didn't know very well.

It was a long haul, but if I were to do it all again I think I would look for a breeder in the UK again as the UK KC and breed clubs there seem to be better organised with more restrictions etc.

I would not consider the person you refer to above a reputable breeder.

sillysmiles

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Another person that thinks dogs should be only for the rich. If only the people considered responsible by the likes on this forum were allowed to breed, pups would be 10 times the price "responsoble breeders" charge now.

I don't think dogs should be only for the rich, I certainly am not rich. I do think there should be more of a value on their lives and that this would mean that people would think twice before getting a dog or a puppy, then I don't see how that's a bad thing.

I don't think dogs, or any animal, should be treated like a disposable consumer object.

borderlinemeath

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

A pedigree pup got through the IKC can cost upwards of €1000 currently. And you want to reduce supply even further? I know this place can be a bit of an echo chamber with the same opinions being spouted and accepted as a universal truth, but still. If only those who pass the extremely stringent boards breeders test, you would have at most a couple of hundred dogs bred in Ireland each year.

They would cost multiples of what they sell for now. Pets would be denied to thousands of families.

Kennel clubs worldwide have the same guidelines for their breeders to adhere to. Field and trial/sporting clubs would have similar, even more so as the dogs actually work and perform so need to be of sound body and perfect eyesight.

What you seem to want is a puppy farmer/back yard breeder set up for all. No expensive testing, prolific breeding, with whatever dog happens to come along, doesn't matter about health or temperament and sell the pups cheap. Honestly, can you not see how bad that sounds?

Cherry Blossom

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Kennel clubs worldwide have the same guidelines for their breeders to adhere to.

Sorry but I don't agree at all. I have found the UK kennel club to be vastly, vastly superior to the IKC. I have no experience of other kennel clubs so can't comment on those. I would much rather a portion of the price of a pup go to the UK KC than the IKC.

One difference is that the IKC has no equivilant of the assured breeder scheme which assesses breeders and dictates minimum health tests for each breed which must be done as part of the scheme. Health testing I think is more prevalent in the UK than here as a result.

Another is the ease of finding the inbreeding coefficient for a specific dog. For UK dogs you press a button on the website. For Irish dogs, you trawl through the pedigree doing complicated calculations as you go.

borderlinemeath

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Sorry but I don't agree at all. I have found the UK kennel club to be vastly, vastly superior to the IKC. I have no experience of other kennel clubs so can't comment on those. I would much rather a portion of the price of a pup go to the UK KC than the IKC.

One difference is that the IKC has no equivilant of the assured breeder scheme which assesses breeders and dictates minimum health tests for each breed which must be done as part of the scheme. Health testing I think is more prevalent in the UK than here as a result.

Another is the ease of finding the inbreeding coefficient for a specific dog. For UK dogs you press a button on the website. For Irish dogs, you trawl through the pedigree doing complicated calculations as you go.

No, sorry, reading back I wasn't clear, the kennel clubs as a whole might not have the exact same guidelines as each other, but they would sing from the same hymnsheet as such, as the posters here, is what I'm trying to say. Apparently, posters on this forum put far too much emphasis on health and well being and should just breed to popular demand and sell them cheap.:rolleyes:

awanderer

[QUOTE=adrenalinjunkie;98321737]I had my name down for a pup from a breeder in England for over a year. When pups were born she rang me to let me know I was next on the list for a Blue boy. She rang me at 2, 4 and 6 weeks with updates. Two days after the 6 week update she rang me and said she was just back from the vet and the pup had a grade 2-3 heart murmer and would not be able for long walks or strenuous activity. She said not to make a decision straight away but to think about it for a week and get back to her. I took advice from a fellow boardsie and decided against taking the pup. If I were the breeder I think I would have kept the pup but at least she had the checks done and kept me well informed. She returned my deposit and said I could have pick of her next litter if I didn't find a dog in the meantime. In the end I went with a breeder in Northern Ireland. The only breeder in the Republic I had considered told me he did not send his pups to people he didn't know very well.

It was a long haul, but if I were to do it all again I think I would look for a breeder in the UK again as the UK KC and breed clubs there seem to be better organised with more restrictions etc.

I would not consider the person you refer to above a reputable breeder.[/QUOTE]

I feel sorry for the OP who probably didn't intent to start such a debate .

If a reputable breeder means a breeder with a great reputation, it was undeniably a reputable breeder. If it means a breeder who deserves a good reputation, much less so. I don't ever remember the name of the breeder (and would certainly not mention that name anyway as I am not the one who bought the dog) but my friend did everything possible to find the best possible breeder. I remember sending emails to Ikc and the Irish golden retriever club for him (he was computer illiterate), I also remember he didn't think anything of waiting one extra year if it meant finding the best possible dog. I believe though that later on the breeder apologised for talking so rudely to my friend.
3 years on however, my friend has an absolutly lovely Golden Retriever but a dog with a heart murmur, that has been on steroid forever for something on his legs, which I am not sure is genetic, and the begining of arthritis in his front legs. The dogs is incredibly lucky to have been bought by the kind of person who will never give up on him but he really is a (loveable) money pit.

oppenheimer1

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Kennel clubs worldwide have the same guidelines for their breeders to adhere to. Field and trial/sporting clubs would have similar, even more so as the dogs actually work and perform so need to be of sound body and perfect eyesight.

What you seem to want is a puppy farmer/back yard breeder set up for all. No expensive testing, prolific breeding, with whatever dog happens to come along, doesn't matter about health or temperament and sell the pups cheap. Honestly, can you not see how bad that sounds?

Just because I don't agree with you on everything doesn't man I have extreme views. Of course I abhor puppy farming where dogs are bred within an inch of their lives and kept in inhumane conditions. What I do think is totally daft is that in order to be considered responsible you have to be wiling to take the dogs back at any stage of their lives - without question. As long as a breeder breeds dogs in safe clean humane conditions, and ensure that the bitch and litter are healthy and the pups will have good homes, then that is responsible breeding. All the other stuff is superfluous.

Say it was made illegal to breed pups unless you were willing to do all the stuff outlined here, all the health checks and all the aftercare, the number of Dogs in Ireland would fall to the low thousands within 5-6 years. Consequently, those that could meet the conditions could essentially name their price as many closed professions do these days. Dogs would be unaffordable for those not willing to import or pay thousands to an Irish breeder. Thousands of families would be denied the opportunity to have the companionship that a dog provides, and learn the lessons about life that having a dog gives, even though they could afford to keep one but not the steep outlay.

As a side note, many posters would not have dogs if it were not for irresponsible breeding, since many have rescues or abandoned ones.


To return to the OP's question, no there is nothing wrong with breeding your dog. I would have him checked to make sure he's healthy and I would check that the bitch is healthy as well. As the owner of the male, you are not the breeder and the other pups beyond your pick are none of your concern. You certainly won't be expected to home any of them should they be returned.

Cows Go µ

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

What I do think is totally daft is that in order to be considered responsible you have to be wiling to take the dogs back at any stage of their lives - without question. As long as a breeder breeds dogs in safe clean humane conditions, and ensure that the bitch and litter are healthy and the pups will have good homes, then that is responsible breeding. All the other stuff is superfluous.

Oppenheimer1, have you ever bred a litter of pups? It's not just the responsible thing to take a dog back, not taking a dog back is completely unthinkable, to me at least. My parents breed dogs though they haven't had a litter in a while and I frequently help out as they require a great deal of work. The idea of one of their puppies going to a rescue or a pound or being rehomed in a house that they didn't approve of is awful. They would not just take the pup back, they put it into every contract that the pup must be brought back to them if the owner doesn't want it any more. I thought that was the standard contract.

And if one of their dogs father's a litter, they keep in close contact with the owners of the bitch and the pups because they care about what happens to them. If a pup had to be returned, if necessary, they would take the pup. That would obviously only happen if the bitch's owner couldn't take it for whatever reason.

Choc Chip

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

As a side note, many posters would not have dogs if it were not for irresponsible breeding, since many have rescues or abandoned ones.

Actually, I have a rescue dog because (i) I feel that there is a large oversupply of dogs in Ireland in general and I wanted to help one of these dogs; and (ii) I didn't want to contribute to that oversupply by buying a puppy.

If there were no irresponsible breeders then there wouldn't be as many dogs in rescue/ abandoned and I may well have purchased a puppy from a reputable breeder. Irrespective, I would still have a dog.

[Incidentally, the fence I had to erect to satisfy my rescue homecheck cost far in excess of the price you quoted earlier for puppies from reputable breeders, so rescue is not necessarily a cheap option.]

borderlinemeath

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Just because I don't agree with you on everything doesn't man I have extreme views. Of course I abhor puppy farming where dogs are bred within an inch of their lives and kept in inhumane conditions. What I do think is totally daft is that in order to be considered responsible you have to be wiling to take the dogs back at any stage of their lives - without question. As long as a breeder breeds dogs in safe clean humane conditions, and ensure that the bitch and litter are healthy and the pups will have good homes, then that is responsible breeding. All the other stuff is superfluous.

What you've described there is a back yard breeder set up. One persons "safe, clean, humane set up" is anothers garden shed. It's very subjective, and there should be set conditions for whelping bitches. It's necessary to be indoors for a start, not just for the safety of the bitch and pups but for the temperament and socialisation of the pups, environment is a critical factor. Indoors with constant human company, and in particular if you want to sell the pups as a family pet, they need exposure to children from a very young age. They need to meet men, women, children, old people - ie everybody they might encounter in daily life before the fear imprint period sets in. They need to hear household appliances, hoovers, dishwashers, tvs. So many dogs are afraid of the noise of hoovers because they never heard it as a pup.

Say it was made illegal to breed pups unless you were willing to do all the stuff outlined here, all the health checks and all the aftercare, the number of Dogs in Ireland would fall to the low thousands within 5-6 years. Consequently, those that could meet the conditions could essentially name their price as many closed professions do these days. Dogs would be unaffordable for those not willing to import or pay thousands to an Irish breeder. Thousands of families would be denied the opportunity to have the companionship that a dog provides, and learn the lessons about life that having a dog gives, even though they could afford to keep one but not the steep outlay.

This has been pointed out to you a number of times on this thread and you've ignored it. Ireland has a MASSIVE overbreeding problem. We are the puppy farming capital of Europe. We have rescues and pounds full to bursting with overbred and unwanted dogs. All these families that you say are going to miss out on the joy of owning a dog are the very ones giving up on them everyday because they are too easily accessed. See a pup on DD, go pick it up tomorrow, novelty wears off in a few months when they grow out of being a cute pup and destructiveness ensues when there's no training in place.

As a side note, many posters would not have dogs if it were not for irresponsible breeding, since many have rescues or abandoned ones.

They shouldn't have to. Do you know we export rescue dogs in their hundreds across Europe to countries that don't have similar problems? Sweden gets plenty of our rescue dogs, there's a foster here next week before he goes on his travels to his new life in Germany. Greyhounds that are dumped after their working life go to Italy and Czech Republic to live out their lives because we CANNOT cope with the numbers dumped or given away. Perhaps if there was a moratorium on breeding then we could import rescues and help out our neighbours?

To return to the OP's question, no there is nothing wrong with breeding your dog. I would have him checked to make sure he's healthy and I would check that the bitch is healthy as well. As the owner of the male, you are not the breeder and the other pups beyond your pick are none of your concern. You certainly won't be expected to home any of them should they be returned.

What is a health check? To most it's bringing your dog to the vet for a quick routine check, maybe listen to the heartbeat. For a golden retriever - a breed that is beset with genetic health issues - it needs to be a lot more. Hip dysplasia and arthritis is the most common, hips should be X-rayed for any signs of hip dysplasia and elbows done too. Eye conditions are also hereditary, cancers, skin conditions, the list goes on. Who knows if this random bitch he met on the street doesn't suffer from the same genetic conditions - ensuring the puppies will too. Dogs and bitches need to complement each others traits to ensure the healthiest offspring, not just be thrown together to create a cute litter that could potentially cost thousands in vets fees.

sillysmiles

I own an ex-pound dog that was found wandering and no one claimed. At 5-6 yrs old, he already has problems with both back legs with arthritis, hip dysplasia and front elbow pain. He has a fabulously sweet temperament and is a joy. But, from his point of view, if who ever breed him and stopped and thought about it he may not have the potential life time of pain he has now. Who ever breed him and/or sold if didn't care enough about his future life that no one went looking from him when he was lost.

Personally I would love to see a moratorium on breeding for a few years in Ireland. If nothing else it would give the pounds and rescues space and time to clear the numbers they currently have. It would make it harder for families to impulse buy a puppy on done deal, for them to subsequently be abandoned to the back garden when they get destructive, or the pound when they want to do up the house.

I think it would do dog welfare the world of good.