Do you pray in times of stress?

lufties

Recently on a visit back to Ireland, a family member said to me 'there are no atheists in foxholes', during a discussion. It was used as a scaremonger tactic rather than have a logical discussion, which annoyed me

Anyway i just wondered if my have experienced this phenomenon

Skrynesaver

Cabaal

I've never heard anyone (besides on the internet) use this term,
But I have had to listen to older relatives claim that as I get holder I'll start hedging my bets and believe in a god, in response to which I point out that they could very well be praying to the wrong god and making the real one really upset with them.

For myself, in times of stress for relatives dying and parents getting sick (cancer etc) I've never thought for a second about a god existing. It gives me no reassurance at all to have such a viewpoint.

lufties

Cabaal wrote: »

I've never heard anyone (besides on the internet) use this term,
But I have had to listen to older relatives claim that as I get holder I'll start hedging my bets and believe in a god, in response to which I point out that they could very well be praying to the wrong god and making the real one really upset with them.

For myself, in times of stress for relatives dying and parents getting sick (cancer etc) I've never thought for a second about a god existing. It gives me no reassurance at all to have such a viewpoint.

I think my folks (one at least), doesn't believe in a god, but is too afraid to start not believing at nearly 60 years old.

Fleawuss

I'm old ( I think anyway) and don't believe in eternal life or the God I was brought up to believe in. I have had a few health scares and what I think about isn't if there's a god or trying to hedge my bets. I'm thinking about trying to use my remaining years to do things I want to do.

fisgon

This is one of the great myths that religious people use to defend their beliefs.

But if you examine the claim - which is basically that in difficult or life-threatening times people will turn to the supernatural - it actually undermines the whole idea of religion.

The claim is that people will turn to religion when they are in desperate straits. Religion is a last resort, something they come back to out of desperation. It is not because it is obviously true, or has any redeeming qualities at all, it is something you hold on to when you have run out of options.

So apart from being simply nonsense - I have had quite a few difficult moments in my last twenty years of atheism, and have never thought that a god or a religion was the solution to my problems - it says that religion has no real value in itself, it is just a last resort when all else has failed.

Kivaro

Praying during times of stress is just a form of procrastination or a way to deflect from dealing with it. Maybe it will just "go away" if they pray.

For most rational people, in times of stress they react to it e.g. reduce the cause or deal with it head-on.

GLaDOS

Without meaning to sound like a smartarse, why would I pray to something I don't believe in?

lufties

Kivaro wrote: »

Praying during times of stress is just a form of procrastination or a way to deflect from dealing with it. Maybe it will just "go away" if they pray.

For most rational people, in times of stress they react to it e.g. reduce the cause or deal with it head-on.

I sometimes feel so disconnected from family members due to their beliefs, how can logical people bury their head in the sand.

xband

Nope I don't pray that's for sure.

I may hit the gym, go for walk somewhere nice, go for a swim, go out on a mad night out with friends, start planning how to resolve stress, read a book, go to the cinema, watch tv, paint, do DIY, mow the grass, sleep on it, cuddle someone and various other things... But praying just doesn't do it for me.

If it's really serious stress like dental surgery or something - I put on music !

Shrap

That actually annoys the head off me, in a big way. Someone on another thread said only the other day that their father had witnessed many death bed conversions and I thought "Ha, I know why that is".

Having been with my dear departed aunt in the hospice during her last week, I witnessed first hand how pushy (without them even knowing they were being pushy actually...doh!) the various nuns and the priest were in the way they approached my aunt. When she entered the hospice, it was absolutely fine that she was an atheist in a Catholic hospital, but that didn't stop them all trying to offer her absolution.

She specifically turned down a visit from the priest on the day she was last conscious and able to hold a conversation. We, her family, were respecting her wishes by turning away her friends as she wasn't up to the visits, but the priest (in his infinite wisdom) overrode her wishes and insisted on speaking with her. I remain appalled and disgusted that in dying her own way, a strange man thought he knew better. As it turned out, she ended up comforting him for his belief that she was doing it wrong in her usual calm and precise manner (I heard this from one of her nurses later).

I imagine many people wouldn't have the wherewithal to do that and would agree to anything just to get the fcuker to feck the fcuk off. *sorry, still madder than a bag of weasels about it*

mansize

If your up their Jebus, save me!
I pray to a god I don't believe in
I talk to god, as much as I talk to satan, I like to hear both sides

No.

xband

Shrap wrote: »

That actually annoys the head off me, in a big way. Someone on another thread said only the other day that their father had witnessed many death bed conversions and I thought "Ha, I know why that is".

Having been with my dear departed aunt in the hospice during her last week, I witnessed first hand how pushy (without them even knowing they were being pushy actually...doh!) the various nuns and the priest were in the way they approached my aunt. When she entered the hospice, it was absolutely fine that she was an atheist in a Catholic hospital, but that didn't stop them all trying to offer her absolution.

She specifically turned down a visit from the priest on the day she was last conscious and able to hold a conversation. We, her family, were respecting her wishes by turning away her friends as she wasn't up to the visits, but the priest (in his infinite wisdom) overrode her wishes and insisted on speaking with her. I remain appalled and disgusted that in dying her own way, a strange man thought he knew better. As it turned out, she ended up comforting him for his belief that she was doing it wrong in her usual calm and precise manner (I heard this from one of her nurses later).

I imagine many people wouldn't have the wherewithal to do that and would agree to anything just to get the fcuker to feck the fcuk off. *sorry, still madder than a bag of weasels about it*

My granny had a similar experience. She just told him she'd come back and haunt him if there is an after life. He steered clear!

It is a bit worrying though. How are old and dying atheists treated here generally?

Samaris

I do, sometimes, maybe due to upbringing and the whole thing being trained into me, maybe because I still am not 100% certain if I am an atheist*. It's not entirely the faith aspects I have issues with, I think one's concepts of God or gods or whatever should be personal and private, it's the Catholic Church I have serious issues with.

I was at Mass (in-laws family are religious) over Christmas and there was the most painfully out-of-tune singing going on, and I remember thinking in the prayer-time after communion. "I hope You don't have to listen to this every Sunday.."

Same goes for rosaries or the like. I may say the words (see previous as regards Mass), but I tend to be thinking more in terms of a conversation, because honestly, if there is a God, I can't help but thing He, She, It or They must get rather bored with the droning repetition.

*I'm still in the period of figuring it all out and confronting beliefs that were trained in. I seem to be gradually drawing more to the atheist, or at least agnostic side, but there's still part that believes that there may well be Something. Go figure.

Hotblack Desiato

To answer the Q, no of course not, I'm a f**kin' atheist.

If I want to clear my head I go out for a spin on my motorbike.

Happy New Year yiz bollixes

Sam Kade

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Without meaning to sound like a smartarse, why would I pray to something I don't believe in?

True, a very stupid question to post on an atheist thread

Sam Kade

mansize wrote: »

If your up their Jebus, save me!
I pray to a god I don't believe in
I talk to god, as much as I talk to satan, I like to hear both sides

No.

If you don't believe UNHELPFUL TEXT DELETED.

Hotblack Desiato

Sam Kade wrote: »

If you don't believe ...

Think it's a lyric. Can't be ar$ed searching.

smokingman

A bit silly asking that question here tbh.
In fairness, you're asking the meaning of that "foxholes" question really to which I would say, in desperate hours, desperate straws are grasped....unless someone has actually thought about this beforehand. In which case, I would say there are no sudden atheist converts in foxholes.

Bongalongherb

I'm atheist myself, but I can't lie regarding this question of praying. Last year my mother had a major heart attack in front of me and the family and I have to say she was basically dying in front of me. I can handle most stress situations reasonably well but this time I was lost and there was nothing I could physically do except call an ambulance and try to make her as comfortable as possible while trying to keep myself together.

I have to admit that I did personally in mind pray for help in this situation as it was extreme and with the feeling of helplessness I called out mentally for help to the ether.

Even I called out for help to something I believe doesn't exist.

Interesting topic OP.

MrPudding

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

To answer the Q, no of course not, I'm a f**kin' atheist.

If I want to clear my head I go out for a spin on my motorbike.

Happy New Year yiz bollixes

There is nothing on earth a good as spin on your bike to clear the head. That why I ride mine pretty much every day.

Also, happy 2016.

MrP

joseph brand

lufties wrote: »

I think my folks (one at least), doesn't believe in a god, but is too afraid to start not believing at nearly 60 years old.

In for a penny . . . . .

Old religious folks understand the time they have invested in mass, and their ramblings about 'god' in front of real people. It must be very hard to admit to oneself that you have been had. All those years, played for a fool. Best to soldier on, keep pushing through. That's what they think.

If only they knew how liberating it is to shed the cult shackles and admit that they always had doubts about the supernatural. Of course snakes don't talk.

kylith

If, for example, I see something about to catch fire or I'm falling off my bike I may find myself saying 'OhGodOhGodOhGod!' Or 'Christ, that's awful' when something bad happens. Does it mean I am actually praying to a deity? No, of course not. It's a socially acceptable form of swearing. Nothing more.

Shrap

joseph brand wrote: »

In for a penny . . . . .

Old religious folks understand the time they have invested in mass, and their ramblings about 'god' in front of real people. It must be very hard to admit to oneself that you have been had. All those years, played for a fool. Best to soldier on, keep pushing through. That's what they think.

If only they knew how liberating it is to shed the cult shackles and admit that they always had doubts about the supernatural. Of course snakes don't talk.

I agree, but I'd say it's not that liberating an admission on your death bed. A good friend of mine started asking me my opinion on the afterlife and God about 2 weeks before he died. He was afraid that the religion he'd mostly ignored and dismissed for over half his life (having left rural Ireland in his late teens for the UK, only to return in his 60's) was actually true, and he found himself half believing again now that he was near death and being afraid for the things he'd done.

I think if he'd have thought it through before hand (or talked about his fears earlier) he'd have been fine and wouldn't have had the fear at that time, but he'd treated that aspect of his life just like he treated his illness. Ignore it, and hope it goes away.

I felt sorry for the question he had during his last weeks, and even sorrier since then that I didn't have the bollix to go there with him in that conversation. There's a fine line between not wanting to shake someone's beliefs out of respect, and actually having respect for their beliefs by challenging them. I console myself with it not really having been my call to make, and he might have got it straight with himself earlier Still though....the thought that there must be a lot of confused and distressed elderly people who turn to such thoughts at the end is hard to handle.

lufties

kylith wrote: »

If, for example, I see something about to catch fire or I'm falling off my bike I may find myself saying 'OhGodOhGodOhGod!' Or 'Christ, that's awful' when something bad happens. Does it mean I am actually praying to a deity? No, of course not. It's a socially acceptable form of swearing. Nothing more.

if you've lost all engines, hydraulics,electrics etc and your going into a nosedive from 40 thousand ft, do you say 'please god'?

eviltwin

I stopped praying when God didn't listen. I stopped believing soon after.

Pherekydes

lufties wrote: »

if you've lost all engines, hydraulics,electrics etc and your going into a nosedive from 40 thousand ft, do you say 'please god'?

What about the guy who flies the plane into a high rise? Must prove Allah is real...

kylith

lufties wrote: »

if you've lost all engines, hydraulics,electrics etc and your going into a nosedive from 40 thousand ft, do you say 'please god'?

Thankfully I've never been in that situation but if I did it would be in the same tone of voice as I'd say "Oh $hit!" And I certainly wouldn't be expecting anything to happen.

Anyway, if there are gods do you really think they'd be taken in by death-bed conversions?

uck51js9zml2yt

Bongalongherb wrote: »

I'm atheist myself, but I can't lie regarding this question of praying. Last year my mother had a major heart attack in front of me and the family and I have to say she was basically dying in front of me. I can handle most stress situations reasonably well but this time I was lost and there was nothing I could physically do except call an ambulance and try to make her as comfortable as possible while trying to keep myself together.

I have to admit that I did personally in mind pray for help in this situation as it was extreme and with the feeling of helplessness I called out mentally for help to the ether.

Even I called out for help to something I believe doesn't exist.

Interesting topic OP.

Sorry to hear about your mother but why pray at all ? If you're an atheist then there is no value in it. The times of not being able to do anything tell a lot about the man. I doubt whether you're really an atheist, you just wont admit it.

kylith wrote: »

If, for example, I see something about to catch fire or I'm falling off my bike I may find myself saying 'OhGodOhGodOhGod!' Or 'Christ, that's awful' when something bad happens. Does it mean I am actually praying to a deity? No, of course not. It's a socially acceptable form of swearing. Nothing more.

If you don't believe God exists why call out to Him? Who says its socially acceptable? I don't, and why God..why not some other deity or the Flying Spaghetti Monster?


Interesting topic OP Atheist who when push comes to shove aren't really atheists.
You do realise there are no dead atheists. Everyone believes when they die, the problem is that its too late.:D

Fleawuss

Brecken Itchy Rooftop wrote: »

Interesting topic OP Atheist who when push comes to shove aren't really atheists.
You do realise there are no dead atheists. Everyone believes when they die, the problem is that its too late.:D

It's not an interesting topic in itself : the second post crushed it's absurd proposition. It's interesting to see yet another desperate clawing at some sort of relevance from religion and its promoters.

Your statement that there are no dead atheists is nonsense of course. Any atheist who died is a dead atheist. Unless of course you're trying to play silly word games which would of course be the last refuge of the religious mindset.

Finally, even a rudimentary grasp of Christian theology would acquaint you with the "good thief" story and that Christian theology holds out the death bed confession routine so that it's never too late etc. When people have been conditioned from childhood it's difficult to break away and fearful human beings are desperate for comfort. And therein lies the revelation: not of faith but of the origins of religion and its frenetic attempts to remain in control of children's education in this country.

Pherekydes

Brecken Itchy Rooftop wrote: »

Atheist who when push comes to shove aren't really atheists.
You do realise there are no dead atheists. Everyone believes when they die, the problem is that its too late.:D

There are no dead atheists. Correct. An atheist is someone who does not believe in a god or gods. You must be alive to either believe or not believe, as the case may be.

uck51js9zml2yt

Fleawuss wrote: »

It's not an interesting topic in itself : the second post crushed it's absurd proposition. It's interesting to see yet another desperate clawing at some sort of relevance from religion and its promoters.

Your statement that there are no dead atheists is nonsense of course. Any atheist who died is a dead atheist. Unless of course you're trying to play silly word games which would of course be the last refuge of the religious mindset.

Finally, even a rudimentary grasp of Christian theology would acquaint you with the "good thief" story and that Christian theology holds out the death bed confession routine so that it's never too late etc. When people have been conditioned from childhood it's difficult to break away and fearful human beings are desperate for comfort. And therein lies the revelation: not of faith but of the origins of religion and its frenetic attempts to remain in control of children's education in this country.

I never play silly games where eternity is in question and 'm definitely not religious. I gave that up a long time ago as it didn't work.

Sometimes it is too late. People die in their sleep, drop dead suddenly etc.

I probably have more of a grasp of Christian Theology than you do having qualifications in the area and over 30 years experience of it but lets not get in the way of good rhetoric:D

moc moc a moc

Brecken Itchy Rooftop wrote: »

I probably have more of a grasp of Christian Theology than you do having qualifications in the area and over 30 years experience of it but lets not get in the way of good rhetoric:D

Do you have a degree in leprechaun studies as well?

uck51js9zml2yt

moc moc a moc wrote: »

Do you have a degree in leprechaun studies as well?

I'll leave that one to you:D

robindch

Sam Kade wrote: »

If you don't believe stop your [...]

You've been carded for that comment. Please read forum charter before posting again.

fisgon

Brecken Itchy Rooftop wrote: »

Sorry to hear about your mother but why pray at all ? If you're an atheist then there is no value in it. The times of not being able to do anything tell a lot about the man. I doubt whether you're really an atheist, you just wont admit it.

People are not totally rational. We are emotional beings and when confronted with difficult stressful situations we may fall back on reflexes that had been drummed into us in our childhood. It doesn't really mean anything, it is a reflex action, a grasping at straws. It doesn't necessarily have any bearing on what someone's actual belief is.

Brecken Itchy Rooftop wrote: »

Everyone believes when they die, the problem is that its too late.:D

Everyone believes what when they die? Not sure what this means, how do you know this? "There are no dead atheists"? Again, What?

IamtheWalrus

I'm an 'atheist' but have a fear of flying. Once on a bumpy flight, I was panicking and said to myself something like 'god help'. I surprised myself. I don't think it means I believe there's a god, it was just a desperate survival technique that would have comforted me in the past when I was a believer.

Did shock me though.

ABC101

Fleawuss wrote: »

Finally, even a rudimentary grasp of Christian theology would acquaint you with the "good thief" story and that Christian theology holds out the death bed confession routine so that it's never too late etc.

Slightly off topic I know.... but do you mind me asking what you mean by that paragraph?

ABC101

Shrap wrote: »

That actually annoys the head off me, in a big way. Someone on another thread said only the other day that their father had witnessed many death bed conversions and I thought "Ha, I know why that is".

Having been with my dear departed aunt in the hospice during her last week, I witnessed first hand how pushy (without them even knowing they were being pushy actually...doh!) the various nuns and the priest were in the way they approached my aunt. When she entered the hospice, it was absolutely fine that she was an atheist in a Catholic hospital, but that didn't stop them all trying to offer her absolution.

She specifically turned down a visit from the priest on the day she was last conscious and able to hold a conversation. We, her family, were respecting her wishes by turning away her friends as she wasn't up to the visits, but the priest (in his infinite wisdom) overrode her wishes and insisted on speaking with her. I remain appalled and disgusted that in dying her own way, a strange man thought he knew better. As it turned out, she ended up comforting him for his belief that she was doing it wrong in her usual calm and precise manner (I heard this from one of her nurses later).

I imagine many people wouldn't have the wherewithal to do that and would agree to anything just to get the fcuker to feck the fcuk off. *sorry, still madder than a bag of weasels about it*

Very sorry to hear that. It would have been better if the Priest had just let your Aunt know that he was there for her.... if in the off chance she wanted to call upon him for a chat or whatever.

Shrap

ABC101 wrote: »

Very sorry to hear that. It would have been better if the Priest had just let your Aunt know that he was there for her.... if in the off chance she wanted to call upon him for a chat or whatever.

Are you missing something in the story I told? The priest wasn't there for her at all, he was there for himself. A child could work out that the only way the priest would have "been there for her" was to respect her wishes and not invite himself for a chat during my aunt's last hours.

ABC101

Shrap wrote: »

Are you missing something in the story I told? The priest wasn't there for her at all, he was there for himself. A child could work out that the only way the priest would have "been there for her" was to respect her wishes and not invite himself for a chat during my aunt's last hours.

As I wrote... I am sorry that happened.

From what you have written in your first post.... your Aunt declined any offers from the priest / nun etc... but unfortunately they did not respect her wishes.

But I think my original point still stands.....

There is no harm / disrespect in offering help / assistance ..... whether it be carrying a suitcase... bags of shopping, holding open a door for somebody, cutting your neighbors grass, sitting down having a general chat with a person etc .....I don't think there is any harm in that at all.

But it is hurtful / disrespectful... to continue to offer assistance when it has been made very clear (when it was first offered) that such assistance is unwanted etc.

uck51js9zml2yt

ABC101 wrote: »

Slightly off topic I know.... but do you mind me asking what you mean by that paragraph?

If you read the account of the crucifixion of Jesus it should become clear. JOHNS Gospel is a good one starting at about chspter 19/20 if memory serves.
There are plenty of online Bibles if you don't have one.a

the_syco

Cabaal wrote: »

For myself, in times of stress for relatives dying and parents getting sick (cancer etc) I've never thought for a second about a god existing.

Regarding this; it confuses me that we're meant to pray to the deity that created the cancer in the first place?

=-=

The phrase "there are no atheists in foxholes" means that when all else is lost (surrounded by enemy forces in WW2), that everyone will hope/believe in some sort of higher power that will save you.

In this scenario, the Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress could thus be a "god", as I'm sure many Allies would pray that one would appear in the sky to bomb the enemy.

Shrap wrote: »

Having been with my dear departed aunt in the hospice during her last week, I witnessed first hand how pushy (without them even knowing they were being pushy actually...doh!) the various nuns and the priest were in the way they approached my aunt. When she entered the hospice, it was absolutely fine that she was an atheist in a Catholic hospital, but that didn't stop them all trying to offer her absolution.

Valhalla sounds like an awesome place to goto all things considered, but I wonder if popping off a few of the enemy whilst on my deathbed would help? It would surely keep the rest away! :pac:

Hotblack Desiato

There is a 'home' near where I live, opened within the last couple of years, called Valhalla.

When I walk past I always wonder was someone taking the mick in a very subtle way.

PopePalpatine

At least they can legitimately say, "I am awaited in Valhalla!" :pac:

Samaris

Brecken Itchy Rooftop wrote: »

If you don't believe God exists why call out to Him? Who says its socially acceptable? I don't, and why God..why not some other deity or the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

Well, I agree that it is, for a start. It's one of those things you hear, and might pop out.

Brecken Itchy Rooftop wrote: »

You do realise there are no dead atheists. Everyone believes when they die, the problem is that its too late.:D

Someone else already got the strictly accurate smartarse comment in, so I'll merely say that that's a rather arrogant attitude to have, since you absolutely have no way of proving it short of hanging around deathbeds with a notepad.

Bannasidhe

Brecken Itchy Rooftop wrote: »

You do realise there are no dead atheists. Everyone believes when they die, the problem is that its too late.:D

I died in November 1983 following a 'queer bashing' incident. I remained dead for some two minutes then, thanks to timely medical intervention, I got better. At no point between 8:55 pm when the nunchucks began to rain down and 9:10 when my heart decided to stop beating did I ever believe in the existence of a God. I was literally a dead atheist.
When I returned at approx 9:12 I still did not believe in the existence of a God but I did find I had acquired a deep belief in the NHS.

Funnily enough my 32 year old nephew was a dead atheist for over 5 minutes following a series of heart attacks. He also got better thanks to timely medical intervention and is using his damaged heart as a 'don't argue with me' card to stifle any complaints that the child his wife is expecting will NOT be baptised.

MrPudding

Brecken Itchy Rooftop wrote: »

Sorry to hear about your mother but why pray at all ? If you're an atheist then there is no value in it. The times of not being able to do anything tell a lot about the man. I doubt whether you're really an atheist, you just wont admit it.



If you don't believe God exists why call out to Him? Who says its socially acceptable? I don't, and why God..why not some other deity or the Flying Spaghetti Monster?


Interesting topic OP Atheist who when push comes to shove aren't really atheists.
You do realise there are no dead atheists. Everyone believes when they die, the problem is that its too late.:D

Project much? Just because you are not capable of getting through life without your childish beliefs does not mean no one else can. And just because you are scared of death, and therefore need a fairly tale of everlasting life so you can get out of bed in the morning does not mean everyone else does.

I frequently say "for god's sake", this does not mean I believe in gods, it is basically habit. To be perfectly honest, the only thing me saying "for god's sake" really means is I believe the company I am in at that moment is too polite for me to say "for fcuk's sake." It has nothing to do with belief, it is simply a socially acceptable phrase of exasperation. And by the way, I don't give a flying fcuk at a rolling donut if my taking your lord's name in vain offends you. Sue me.

MrP

uck51js9zml2yt

MrPudding wrote: »

Project much? Just because you are not capable of getting through life without your childish beliefs does not mean no one else can. And just because you are scared of death, and therefore need a fairly tale of everlasting life so you can get out of bed in the morning does not mean everyone else does.

I frequently say "for god's sake", this does not mean I believe in gods, it is basically habit. To be perfectly honest, the only thing me saying "for god's sake" really means is I believe the company I am in at that moment is too polite for me to say "for fcuk's sake." It has nothing to do with belief, it is simply a socially acceptable phrase of exasperation. And by the way, I don't give a flying fcuk at a rolling donut if my taking your lord's name in vain offends you. Sue me.

MrP

You seem very defensive Mr P...you really need to calm down
As for fearing death..do you project much ?

uck51js9zml2yt

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I died in November 1983 following a 'queer bashing' incident. I remained dead for some two minutes then, thanks to timely medical intervention, I got better. At no point between 8:55 pm when the nunchucks began to rain down and 9:10 when my heart decided to stop beating did I ever believe in the existence of a God. I was literally a dead atheist.
When I returned at approx 9:12 I still did not believe in the existence of a God but I did find I had acquired a deep belief in the NHS.

Funnily enough my 32 year old nephew was a dead atheist for over 5 minutes following a series of heart attacks. He also got better thanks to timely medical intervention and is using his damaged heart as a 'don't argue with me' card to stifle any complaints that the child his wife is expecting will NOT be baptised.

Your heart stopped, your brain function didn't cease.

If you want to go to down that road, my heart was stopped for a couple of hours in September while I had it repaired. I don't claim I was dead.

Bannasidhe

Brecken Itchy Rooftop wrote: »

Your heart stopped, your brain function didn't cease.

If you want to go to down that road, my heart was stopped for a couple of hours in September while I had it repaired. I don't claim I was dead.

Can't believe anything when there is no brain function so it's a nonsense to claim anyone believes in anything at that point now isn't it. Or are you suggesting that atheists acquire a belief in a deity at the point when their brain function ceases?

You claimed there are no dead atheists but now want to quibble as to what constitutes 'death' - without prompt attention by paramedics I would have been dead by any definition and I still wouldn't have believed in the existence of a God