My dog attacked me

TallGlass

Hi Guys,

Looking for some advise on my dog. It's very protective over my father, it's a family pet, I brought him into the house and trained him up. He is now 4 years old.

Over the last few years he has been getting worse, he doesn't like people hugging, dancing or anyone coming near my father he will attack them. Tonight I was holding him and removing him from the room (so we could go out and before wish each other happy new year) when my girlfriend was hugging my mother, the dog then took a hold of my nose, I know how to handle him so got him off without doing anymore damage to me, I put him out the back.

It's getting worse, he has previously bitten my girlfriend on the lip and my mother also on the lip and me on the lip/arms but this was the first time he latched on fairly viciously previously he attacked me a few times. I mainly remove him from the room should anyone be coming in, I had to call an ambulance for my father a few times so had the dog locked up.

My mother, father and girlfriend got a serious shock, blood all over the place.

What I am looking for advise on is what to do? Do I get him put down, I don't really want to do this, he is a good dog besides this. I was thinking of giving him <snip> I know they can help find an owner that could handle him. He is friendly with other dogs.

He is a border collie 4 year old male, he stays in the house and mostly sleeps with my father, which I have told him countless times to stop doing this as it is putting the dog into the mindset that he is top/second in the packing order of the pack in the house.

Personally I hate to say, but I think he has to go albeit I don't want him put down, he is getting worse with him and my was close to been pulled off, so I fear next time someone will get seriously hurt, I was fairly lucky I can him when aggressive up to a point, maybe next time he will get the better and I won't be so lucky. He was still going for me when I brought him out the back.

Any help appreciated, I understand its a sensitive issue for most people myself included. But I don't have any other experience, I love dogs and I hate the idea of putting a healthy dog down with no other faults other than been protective, but I fear it won't be me next time, maybe a kid or my mother.

Sorry for any grammar/spelling mistakes still in a bit of shock.

Kristopherus

Is it a big sin to put a muzzle on him?

TallGlass

Kristopherus wrote: »

Is it a big sin to put a muzzle on him?

Honest question, but permanently on him even around the house?

Ken.

What does your father do when he acts out. Your father needs to be the one discipling the dog.

VonVix

Your situation is a bit too sensitive for me to give you any advice without seeing how things play out, his general behaviour and the family dynamic with your dog. It sounds like you need a behaviourist to come into your home to figure things out and understand why things are happening, and to ultimately give you a plan of action and to eliminate the chances of this happening again.

Emmaline of Citizen Canine Ireland gets great reviews around here, a quick Google search should bring up her information. I think it should be a first stop for you before taking any action in changing the life direction of your dog. Nothing is going to change unless the humans of the household have a plan to help your dog feel more secure.

And don't worry about pecking order/pack hierarchy, it doesn't apply to dogs and has long been debunked.

I have been bitten by a dog before and it's really easy to take it personally, but you have to keep in mind it's not personal, it's often an issue of insecurity/ fear that makes a dog feel the need to bite, it is a method (albeit drastic) of communication for them.

TallGlass

ken wrote: »

What does your father do when he acts out. Your father needs to be the one discipling the dog.

Tonight for the first time he did, he went out the back and told him off, previous to this I told him that he needs to give out to him to which he usual ignores. But tonight he seen that something needs to be done.

Kristopherus

TallGlass wrote: »

Honest question, but permanently on him even around the house?

Mine was an honest question too !!! One of the soft types woud be my suggestion, but if he's 4 yrs old, he may be too old for new tricks. As has been suggested, a behaviourist may be your best option. And Yes, he should not be put down. By the way, have you any influence with your father? He surely may have questions to answer.

Ham Sambo

You are right when yopu say that the dog 'thinks' he is second in command after your Dad, when the dog attacks somebody again your Dad should be the one to give out to him, once he sees that your Dad won't accept his behaviour then he should quiten down a bit, as it stands now he sees your Dad as the pack leader and you and your gf as the runts of the litter (sorry).

VonVix

Deep breaths, VonVix...

Giving out to the dog isn't going to help or change the situation.

In fact it could escalate things, the dog can build an association that whenever person A is around, person B will give out to him, so the dog promptly try to get person A out by biting/barking/lunging/whatever, BEFORE anyone initiates contact with person B.

PirateShampoo

He's bitten you twice and bitten two other people and they are all people the dog has grown up around.

What's going to happen when he attacks someone who can't fight him off?

wush06

A border collie with this sort of behaviour is strange I'm feeling the dog has no master to lead the way. I'm not sure of the setup in the house but collies are very clever dogs.
Do you live at home full time you say he sleeps with the da then you master him around and put him outside. The first time he bit someone should have been his last and I don't mean having him put down for it. I'm not sure is there other dogs in the house.

Pretzill

When you said you were bit on the nose I thought the breed would be a little nippy dog - how is a border collie getting that close to your face? Is he jumping up, is he a little highly strung, perhaps needing a bit extra exercise.

Border collies do need a lot of attention and to be honest they sort of demand it - I have never had one that nipped though - I would suggest getting him some training, getting him out more for real energetic fun - fly ball and also search games - any dog can be possessive though and I am sure there are ways this can be handled without going down the pts route - in fact I would urge you to investigate other alternatives before that.

TallGlass

VonVix wrote: »

Your situation is a bit too sensitive for me to give you any advice without seeing how things play out, his general behaviour and the family dynamic with your dog.

I don't really understand this part? His general behavior is fine, I walk him, he is friendly to other dogs, people always happy to see me. But not so much when he is alone with just me, he gets a bit sheepish.

It sounds like you need a behaviourist to come into your home to figure things out and understand why things are happening, and to ultimately give you a plan of action and to eliminate the chances of this happening again.

Emmaline of Citizen Canine Ireland gets great reviews around here, a quick Google search should bring up her information. I think it should be a first stop for you before taking any action in changing the life direction of your dog. Nothing is going to change unless the humans of the household have a plan to help your dog feel more secure.

I will look into this, never heard of such a thing to be honest.

And don't worry about pecking order/pack hierarchy, it doesn't apply to dogs and has long been debunked.

I wouldn't agree really agree with this, the dog is seeing some type of systematic ranking in the house, he won't attack my father but anyone else is.

I have been bitten by a dog before and it's really easy to take it personally, but you have to keep in mind it's not personal, it's often an issue of insecurity/ fear that makes a dog feel the need to bite, it is a method (albeit drastic) of communication for them.

I totally agree, I don't take it personally. But its becoming worse each time he is doing this, my family are freaked out after tonight. I am not really, he is an animal at the end of the day, it's to be expected he doesn't know what he is doing. What I would like to do is figure of what my options are regards this, I think to get him put down is a very top heavy approach.

nuckeythompson

when he savages a child , and it sounds like when as opposed to if what will you do then?

How does he bite your nose and lips? are you kissing the dog?

They are very intelligent dogs who need stimulation and plenty of outdoor stimulation as they are suited to the outdoors. My personal opinion is that he may be too old for any training , and thats just my opinion. Your biggest responsibility is to any potential attacks on children

best of luck

TallGlass

Kristopherus wrote: »

Mine was an honest question too !!! One of the soft types woud be my suggestion, but if he's 4 yrs old, he may be too old for new tricks. As has been suggested, a behaviourist may be your best option. And Yes, he should not be put down. By the way, have you any influence with your father? He surely may have questions to answer.

I will make the suggestion and been honest I have thought of this, but my fear was he would become aggressive trying to get it back on after eating etc... Also think behaviorist is been mentioned quite a lot.

scwazrh

TallGlass wrote: »

I think he has to go

TallGlass wrote: »

I fear it won't be me next time, maybe a kid or my mother.

Ive quoted the two most important parts of what you've said.
Its terrible that these are your options but you cannot take a chance that the dog will attack again.

TallGlass

Ham Sambo wrote: »

You are right when yopu say that the dog 'thinks' he is second in command after your Dad, when the dog attacks somebody again your Dad should be the one to give out to him, once he sees that your Dad won't accept his behaviour then he should quiten down a bit, as it stands now he sees your Dad as the pack leader and you and your gf as the runts of the litter (sorry).

PirateShampoo wrote: »

He's bitten you twice and bitten two other people and they are all people the dog has grown up around.

What's going to happen when he attacks someone who can't fight him off?

These comments go hand in hand, I understand with some training he might quite down, but he might not and my fear is he will do it to someone who cannot defend themselves, that why I am looking for advise which I have always found from this part of the site.

The dog is smart, and I do train him he knows what he is doing is wrong for the most part, but in my option because my father is not calling him out on it, so he continues it.

TallGlass

Pretzill wrote: »

When you said you were bit on the nose I thought the breed would be a little nippy dog - how is a border collie getting that close to your face? Is he jumping up, is he a little highly strung, perhaps needing a bit extra exercise.

Border collies do need a lot of attention and to be honest they sort of demand it - I have never had one that nipped though - I would suggest getting him some training, getting him out more for real energetic fun - fly ball and also search games - any dog can be possessive though and I am sure there are ways this can be handled without going down the pts route - in fact I would urge you to investigate other alternatives before that.

Yes he bit me on the nose, I was holding him to remove him from the room, due to my previous experiences I knew he would attack someone if he seen us hugging, but would never attack my father.

Bongalongherb

A simple way of fixing this is to train the dog properly, and your father needs to be the one doing this as he is the pack-leader. My collie was at that before when we got him from the rescue centre so I spent all the time I had training him in front of all family members in all situations and after a few weeks he never done it again to anyone, not even friend visitors. Time and patience is the Key.

Disposing of this dog is just a lazy approach in my opinion as hard work needs to be implemented now.

TallGlass

nuckeythompson wrote: »

when he savages a child , and it sounds like when as opposed to if what will you do then?

That's my fear, and for the most part not something I want to risk, and not even a child it could be an adult who won't fight back or does and make things worse.

How does he bite your nose and lips? are you kissing the dog?

For myself I was holding him, for my mother/girlfriend they where sitting down or standing beside a chair that he was on

They are very intelligent dogs who need stimulation and plenty of outdoor stimulation as they are suited to the outdoors. My personal opinion is that he may be too old for any training , and thats just my opinion. Your biggest responsibility is to any potential attacks on children

best of luck

I agree and for the most part he is walked and simulated. I just can't understand it. He is not ill treated by us, in fact the opposite, which I think is the root of the problem.

JaMarcusHustle

You won't want to hear it, but he's been raised poorly and irresponsibly without discipline. Simple as that. And now it will be difficult to undo. It's not impossible, but people who can't raise a dog correctly rarely have the patience or commitment needed to correct their mistakes.

DBB

Folks,
I am becoming deeply concerned about the advice being given here... There's some terribly outdated, misguided, disproven stuffing bandied about.
So, it's not something I like to do, but I'm going to shut this down until tomorrow as it's becoming a damaging train wreck, and I for one would rather enjoy my New Year's Eve that have to deal with more reported posts
Thanks all,
DBB

Cherry Blossom

Hi OP,

Firstly, dominance theory does not exist in dogs. There is no 'pack hierarchy', it simply does not exist. With this in mind, you need to accept and understand that you do not know enough about canine behaviour to determine why this is happening. When you know why, then you need to be using the correct methods to sort the problem. This is were a properly qualified canine behaviourist will come in.

First though you will need a vet visit and a barage of tests to determine if there is an underlying health issue. A behaviourist will insist on this before they work on the dog. If you have pet insurance, this sometimes covers behaviourist fees if you are referred to them by a vet.

If you let us know where you live we can give recommendations of behaviourists and vets sympathetic to your problems (some vets are not so good on behaviour issues).

The one thing you absolutely can't do though is pass a dog that is a bite risk on to someone else. It is very unlikely that any rescue would touch you with a ten foot barge pole the way things are at present. You need to get professional help with this OP.

DBB

OK, thread is open again.

I'd like to make some input, if I may. This is going to take a while, so bear with me
I'm pretty dismayed at the number of people talking about the dog being dominant, about your father having to assert his leadership, about the dog viewing other people as lower than him in some sort of hierarchy, these other people being referred to in one case as runts.
Here's the thing. Neither dogs, nor wolves, live within a dominance hierarchy. They no more view themselves as leaders, nor attempt to climb some social hierarchy, than the man on the moon. This has been shown categorically via research and the experience of hundreds, thousands of qualified behaviourists and behavioural scientists.
It is quite correct that this belief has been debunked, but it still clings on in some dog training circles because it seems like a neat catch-all for all problem behaviour. The one thing that trainers and TV personalities who still cling to this belief have in common is that they are all untrained, unqualified, and frankly, unfit to give their opinion.
Dogs as a species have been seized, big time, by scientific research in the past 20 years, which has shown that dominance theory/pack leadership does not stand up to scrutiny. There is always, always a plausible reason for behavioural problems which bears no relation to the dog attempting to ascend a social hierarchy. The actual reason pretty much always boils down to either an issue involving how the dog has learned to respond to events, or a health problem... Sometimes both.
Our attempts to shoehorn the dog's motivation for misbehaving into one (misguided) model consequently causes more problems than it solves, it's exactly the same as trying to explain a naughty child's behaviour by claiming that the child is trying to climb a social hierarchy.... We all know they're not. But a dog's motivations for acting aggressively are often not much different to a child, yet we insist on using "status reducing" training techniques on dogs, which are usually harsh, often including verbal or physical abuse. Because this treatment does not address the actual underlying issues, instead often causing more fear that only suppresses the problem behaviour, the problem never really goes away, and can sit there brewing until a set of circumstances comes along where the dog just can't suppress the behaviour any more, and damage is done. Aggression, which is a symptom of an underlying emotional issue, must, must, must be accurately treated so that the emotion which underpins the behaviour is properly addressed. Punishing the dog escalates the emotional problem, and merely puts a bandage over the wound.
Let me direct you to a couple of articles written by some seriously respected behaviourists (qualified and certified, as all behaviourists should be), because they explain it in layman's terms better than I can. Both authors, for the record, specialise in the area of aggression:

http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/caninedominance

http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/emotion

http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/why-wont-dominance-die

http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/dog-aggression-FAQs

I'm only choosing these authors as they do a neat job of disseminating the literature and experiences of countless other certified, qualified behaviourists and behavioural scientists. There are plenty of other articles by other equally respected authors that I could've chosen.

So. Why's your dad's dog aggressive?
Obviously, not having seen him nor taken a history, I'm limited in what I can say. But your words describe to me a dog that fits the profile of pretty much every single dog that has ever bitten, or nearly bitten someone.
His aggression is motivated by the emotion of fear.
In his specific case, guarding your dad, and guarding the spots he's occupying on furniture, is called resource guarding. It is often also called possessiveness.
Some dogs develop a fear, usually due to misguided handling of the issue, of resources that they value highly being taken from them, or otherwise disturbed. That can include people, food, bones, beds, water bowls, resting areas, sometimes even their own vomit! Humans resource guard too, for the record. There is most certainly a stronger trend towards this behaviour amongst some breeds, most notably a couple of the gundog breeds, and terriers.
How to deal with it? Simply training the dog is not the answer, because you're dealing with an emotional issue here, not an obedience issue. Training will certainly help as part of a much wider behaviour modification program, but the dog's aggressive behaviour is not simply down to your dad not having trained him. It is quite likely that the dog has a very strong bond with your dad which is threatened when there are other people about (is the dog used to a more solitary life where it's usually just him and your folks?), and that may need to be watered down somewhat by having others play a bigger role in his life.
If he's guarding his resting spot on furniture (and it does sound like he is... It could be that he's somewhat annoyed at someone sitting too near him, but if at that same moment, somebody hugs your dad, this could cause a "spike" in the dog's mood, with aggression resulting where it may not have if each thing had happened seperately), then he needs to not be on the furniture any more... Getting him off should be done by leaving a lead attached to him so that he can be led down... Shouting at or physically manhandling the dog to move is often what causes the dog to become fearful and resentful in this situation in the first place. A lead should only be on the dog when there's someone there to make sure he doesn't get in harm's way.
Dealing with this problem is going to need a holistic approach which involves understanding why the dog actually feels the need to guard, training, environmental management (this is hugely important), a critical look at the dog's diet, health, and routine, and a large dollop of patience, understanding, and gentleness. No shouting, no slapping, no increasing the fear that underpins the behaviour. If he has to be punished, this can be done using non-harmful, non-confrontational techniques.
To do all of this properly, I'd strongly urge you to contact a good behaviourist... Threads about aggression always cause my blood to run cold because nobody, nobody can know what's actually going on, and because there just aren't that many qualified, certified behaviourists posting on boards.ie... As far as I know! But aggression needs an experienced, qualified eye to be properly diagnosed and a realistic prognosis made. On the latter point, not all aggressive dogs can be safely rehabbed, that is a fallacy that I often see written in threads like this. But you need to be absolutely sure, if the worst comes to the worst, that you genuinely tried everything to help the dog. One thing is certain, whatever happens, he's his owner's responsibility to deal with one way or the other, and he should not be rehomed at this point.
And because getting a qualified, certified behaviourist to help you is so important, bearing in mind that it's an unregulated industry where anyone can entitle themselves to the title of "behaviourist", you might tell us roughly which part of the country you're in, so that we might refer you to one of the good 'uns

L1985

Just a b quick input. I was starting to have a similar issue with our collie he is protective and tends to view people as cattle and tries to herd them away from his territory ie nipping their legs. He's v protective of me.we have calmed him a lot mainly be being proactive. He's especially protective of me so anyone coming near me I call him to me and sit him beside me so he can see what's happening and he's not anxious if I'm petting him. It just makes him feel secure while if he runs around a corner and sees me with someone he doesn't know he goes mad. It works with our fella but all dogs and situations are different. I do think collies are v smart and can be c loyal and protective but he's your dad's dog and will listen most to your dad.my dog would go frantic if someone pulled him away from me when he thought there was danger

pablo128

http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/man-dies-after-attack-by-own-dog-713780.html

Ok, it doesn't say the type of dog, but still relevant.

DBB

pablo128 wrote: »

http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/man-dies-after-attack-by-own-dog-713780.html

Ok, it doesn't say the type of dog, but still relevant.

Ah jayney. That there is just scaremongering. To go by the title of Janis Bradley's fine book, "Dogs Bite. But Balloons and Slippers Are More Dangerous"... more people are killed by tripping over slippers or choking on balloons than are killed by dogs. And the chances of killing yourself with a slipper or a balloon is in itself tiny.
Lots of people get bitten every year. Almost none of them die.
Let's keep this in perspective!

Cherry Blossom

pablo128 wrote: »

http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/man-dies-after-attack-by-own-dog-713780.html

Ok, it doesn't say the type of dog, but still relevant.

In what way is it relevant? All it says is that a man was killed by his dog. What is relevant about that to the OPs case. I know they haven't posted recently but I doubt the OP has been killed.

TallGlass

Hi Guys,

OP here, thanks for all the replies on this all appreciated. IMO, having slept on it last night and read the posts on here also speaking with other dog owners.

What I am going to do, Monday morning both me and my father are going to get him down to the vet and get a professional option on the situation. Also going to look at getting myself a tetines injection tomorrow, I am not up to date as far as I know.

Nightmare situation to be honest.

DBB

TallGlass wrote: »

Hi Guys,

What I am going to do, Monday morning both me and my father are going to get him down to the vet and get a professional option on the situation.

OP, please be aware that unless your vet is aware and tuned into behavioural issues, and has a qualified behaviourist to refer to in the area, the chances are he/she is going to tell you to euthanase the dog.
There are almost no vets in Ireland with training in dog behaviour, and I'm sorry to say that some of the worst behavioural advice I've heard has come from vets... Made worse that they're in a powerful position to sway the owner's choice despite a lack of knowledge in this particular area.
I'll reiterate to you once again, if you want a qualified opinion on your options with a behavioural problem, you've got to talk to a qualified behaviourist. Whilst your vet is a great ally to have in investigating possible health issues underpinning the behaviour, asking your vet for behavioural advice is like expecting a GP to advise and treat a human with chronic anger issues. They're great at what they do, but they simply aren't qualified to take on behavioural issues.

Nody

TallGlass wrote: »

Hi Guys,

OP here, thanks for all the replies on this all appreciated. IMO, having slept on it last night and read the posts on here also speaking with other dog owners.

What I am going to do, Monday morning both me and my father are going to get him down to the vet and get a professional option on the situation. Also going to look at getting myself a tetines injection tomorrow, I am not up to date as far as I know.

Nightmare situation to be honest.

You need two things; first of all you need a medical check which is what the vet can provide to rule out medical conditions and secondly you need a behaviorist to address the behavior and training of the dog. Most of the training required is not for the dog in the end but for the people around the dog to read it and understand what's being communicated.

Malcolm600f

If he has started biting only one solution for that ,

DBB

Malcolm600f wrote: »

If he has started biting only one solution for that ,

That's simply not true.

TallGlass

DBB wrote: »

OP, please be aware that unless your vet is aware and tuned into behavioural issues, and has a qualified behaviourist to refer to in the area, the chances are he/she is going to tell you to euthanase the dog.
There are almost no vets in Ireland with training in dog behaviour, and I'm sorry to say that some of the worst behavioural advice I've heard has come from vets... Made worse that they're in a powerful position to sway the owner's choice despite a lack of knowledge in this particular area.
I'll reiterate to you once again, if you want a qualified opinion on your options with a behavioural problem, you've got to talk to a qualified behaviourist. Whilst your vet is a great ally to have in investigating possible health issues underpinning the behaviour, asking your vet for behavioural advice is like expecting a GP to advise and treat a human with chronic anger issues. They're great at what they do, but they simply aren't qualified to take on behavioural issues.

Ok I understand what your saying to me, but I just don't know where to start with this issue, I thought a vet would have a professional option on the situation. I'm in the Dublin 3 area if you want to recommend someone or even PM me with details.

DBB

I know, I understand that for most people, particularly if not aware that there are behaviourists out there, would assume the vet is the one to talk to. Don't get me wrong, vets have an important role to play in some behavioural cases, but many of them just haven't got the knowledge to advise on behaviour unless they have taken time out to learn more about it.
There are a few trainers and behaviourists in Dublin who you can talk to, but if he were my dog, I'd be contacting the aforementioned Emmaline of http://www.citizencanineireland.com, because she's got the qualifications, but she also has vast experience of dealing with aggression in dogs.
More's the point, she'll give it to you straight. If she feels the dog's behaviour is salvageable, she'll let you know exactly what needs to happen to achieve that. And if she doesn't feel it's going to work out, she'll talk you through that too. You will be able to consider yourself as fully informed as you can be once you've talked with her.

Nody

Only to add in regards to Emmaline (who's probably the person recommended most in the last years I've seen recommendations) to date I've not seen a single person who've used her on boards who're not happy with her (both in what she could help achieve and her knowledge). Below are only some examples:
TK123

I actually just had a behaviourist session with Emmaline from http://www.citizencanineireland.com with my two on Friday and it was great! Learnt loads, the dogs had fun too and it was great to get a different perspective and different ideas.

RTighe

We used Emmaline for an over excited Lab that would greet everything he saw with aggressive barking and too much exuberance (turned out it was anxiety) we spent 3 days with couple of hours each time, was giving homework coaching exercises for the Lug. and since then we have a much more relaxed dog. we now use it on our 7 month old English shepard and have seen great results already.

Also she spent time instructing us on how our dog perceives things around him which, even though I've had dogs all my life (30+ years) it was an eye opener and educational, I'm pretty sure I have some of the emails and exercise notes that may be of some use to you?

again I couldn't recommend her enough.

Hatcho

Yep, have to say Emmaline is fantastic! The first time she came to visit our house and met Bella (our GSD/Collie cross) she spent a couple of hours with us. She spent time with Bella, listened to our concerns and then spent ages going through various techniques to use when training/instructing and guiding Bella towards being a well behaved doggy. I don't exaggerate when I say Bella was a much better behaved dog by the time Emmaline left the house. And we were also armed with lots of new skills to better interact and understand our new pooch.

Marty McFly

Sorry for the delay in getting back to this newborn baby along with Molly doesn't leave us with much spare time

Anyways Molly was diagnosed with separation anxiety but not an extreme case.

Emmaline was brilliant and we'll worth the Money came and sat with us for over two hours all of which I found brilliant.

She recommended we buy Molly an Adaptil collar which arrived today, to help try and ease her nerves.

Also to train her more at which she has been doing great so far, have her sitting, giving the paw, leaving food alone until told to have it although still can't get the fecker to lie

Also bought her a Kong and now feed her from that or just handfuls food thrown around the garden no more feeding from bowls it's to easy and doesn't challenge her.

Molly has slowly been coming around and really settling into her new home and it's great to see. Is now much more playful, is great around the baby even had our first bark the other day.

I'm probably forgetting loads but it is 4a.m

But couldn't recommend her enough

Frigga_92

OP i had Emmaline out to my house a few weeks ago and would recommend her to anyone. Friendly pleasant woman and excellent with our 4 dogs.

oppenheimer1

scwazrh wrote: »

Ive quoted the two most important parts of what you've said.
Its terrible that these are your options but you cannot take a chance that the dog will attack again.

It looks like the OP really knows in his heart what the solution it. All the training and behaviour adjustment cannot be certain to prevent such behaviour in future.

Only one solution really.

Nody

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

It looks like the OP really knows in his heart what the solution it. All the training and behaviour adjustment cannot be certain to prevent such behaviour in future.

Only one solution really.

Nor can the chance a coconut will fall on his head and kill him; however I'd be willing to bet that if he get Emmaline out and follow her advise it will still be the more likely occurrence.

paulmclaughlin

Malcolm600f wrote: »

If he has started biting only one solution for that ,

There's only one solution if you're too lazy to invest the time and effort to correct the behaviour or give someone else the chance to.

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

All the training and behaviour adjustment cannot be certain to prevent such behaviour in future.

If you're gonna have that attitude, why get a dog in the first place? You cannot be certain that any dog will not exhibit such behaviour during the course of their life.

This thread is full of ignorance of the benefits to behaviour therapy and dog-raising in general. How about you all take your narrow-mindedness somewhere else, because this forum is for people who actually care about their pets.

TallGlass

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Only one solution really.

I understand this also, but as mentioned he is an intelligent dog and hopefully he can be salvaged. If not then unfortunately it's is the only solution, but I would rather see what other options I have.

Just one thing that was mentioned to me, was if he did attack someone badly, and it came to it that he attacked me previously and that I never attacked on it, what would I do, how would I feel?

This isn't as clear cut as just 'one solution', it really is easy to say that while not been in this position and to be fair, I would say the same thing to others. It's why I posted here to get a balance, and I appreciate your post. But surely you can see where I am coming from.

oppenheimer1

Nody wrote: »

Nor can the chance a coconut will fall on his head and kill him; however I'd be willing to bet that if he get Emmaline out and follow her advise it will still be the more likely occurrence.

I bet any behaviourist wouldn't be able to guarantee the outcome of any therapy or training. The OP would still have the same problem (ie not being fully able to trust the dog) but being several hundred euro (or thousands of euro) lighter.

I can think of one way which could guarantee that the dog will never bite again.

nuckeythompson

The reason a vet will not encourage alternative options are because of the potential damage they dog may do on there advice.

coolhandspan

just my two cents here, you need to put this dog down, i would have recommended this after first attack, a dog that bites a person can never be trusted again especially around children etc.

Ken.

If I was you TG I'd follow DBB and Nody's advice but with one change. I'd ring Emmaline first and ask her to recommend a vet that she knows and trusts.

DBB

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

It looks like the OP really knows in his heart what the solution it. All the training and behaviour adjustment cannot be certain to prevent such behaviour in future.

Only one solution really.

You can't ever guarantee that a dog won't be aggressive. Just like you can't ever guarantee that a human won't be aggressive. Throw together the right set of circumstances and any animal will display aggression.
It's the behaviourist's job to help the owner understand why their dog feels the need to use aggression in any given circumstance, and consequently how to minimise the chances of it happening again. In many cases, this can be done very successfully, so much so that many dogs never cause a problem again. Yet if "the only option" is used, these dogs would die needlessly.
Putting a dog to sleep for biting is not for everyone, I've been bitten by one of my dogs under very specific and completely understandable circumstances, and it would have been unspeakably unfair for her to pay for a gross mistake that I made with her life... I can tell you with certainty that a huge amount of owners in the op's position do not want to jump at euthanasia as the first option following a bite.. They want to understand, and they want to resolve things, and are prepared to do what it takes to make that happen. In many cases, as I said, the situation is resolvable, and in my opinion it is wrong to jump straight to the euthanasia option when a dog bites. In some cases, the dog should indeed be put to sleep having made an informed decision, but euthanasia should not always be the first and only option. It's a very final solution indeed.

DBB

coolhandspan wrote: »

just my two cents here, you need to put this dog down, i would have recommended this after first attack, a dog that bites a person can never be trusted again especially around children etc.

Simply not true. You're painting the problem with far too wide a brush there. It's frightening how many people agree with you.

TheQuietFella

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/man-22-dies-after-being-attacked-by-his-own-dog-34329400.html

Do whatever you need to do but don't take too long to think about it!

TG1

As an owner of a 13 year old border collie who bit 3 people a few years ago (including myself) all I can say to the op is I'm glad you're taking a broader view of this issue.

My advice would be bring him to a vet and get in the reccomended behaviouralist. With my guy it turned out to be a reaction to physical pain and once we got that sorted the behaviour stopped.

That was an easy fix, but a behaviourist was my next step.

I had family members telling me he had to be put down, once he tasted blood he'd never be the same, collies just get cross as they get old, and even that I'd be breaking the law of I didn't get him put down! It was all nonsense.

He's here snoring away beside me 3 years on and hasn't bitten anyone since. It's worth taking the time to figure the cause out and fix the problem.

Even if the worst case scenario happens and issue is too much to work through at least you will know you've done everything possible, and if its something you can work through you will get years of companionship from a fabulous dog out of it.

coolhandspan

DBB wrote: »

Simply not true. You're painting the problem with far too wide a brush there. It's frightening how many people agree with you.

Hang on a second DBB, I value your opinion, and I would never say you are wrong. However I have grown up around dogs, and I am a dog owner.,In my own opinion, It is not acceptable to own a dog that is a threat to people. A dog that has attacked multiple times needs to be put to sleep in my opinion. I think it is beyond foolish to allow this dog to interact with people/family and hope all improves.

nuckeythompson

It's very easy for people here to say hang on, he just needs a little tlc. Similar defense in many courts. I never got love or discipline or hugs. That's why I stabbed someone. Putting him down is a last resort. Maybe rehoming him yourself to an individual who is capable could be another option. I wonder what the posters here would say if you posted up here in a few weeks time telling us the dog did some serious damage to a child?
If you can remedy the problem with behavioural treatment go for it.

But as I said before many vets will not encourage alternative because they know the potential damage the dog can do. Also potential legal issues

Plenty of good advice here but remember its easy to dish it when they don't hold the responsibility

Bongalongherb

coolhandspan wrote: »

Hang on a second DBB, I value your opinion, and I would never say you are wrong. However I have grown up around dogs, and I am a dog owner.,In my own opinion, It is not acceptable to own a dog that is a threat to people. A dog that has attacked multiple times needs to be put to sleep in my opinion. I think it is beyond foolish to allow this dog to interact with people/family and hope all improves.

you fail to understand that there is help available to fix this problem the OP has with their dog. It will cost money just like anything else, but I'm positive this problem with the dog can be fixed by seeking professional help.

Like I said before, I had a similar problem with my collie when I got him from the rescue centre, but I spent weeks training him around many people in many different situations and got him used to being hugged and patted by friends constantly and he turned out excellent, he never once growled or snapped at anyone since, and that was over a year ago. Even kids come over to pat him and he loves it now. It just took him a while to trust folk. He wasn't treated well at all by his previous owners.

I was incorrect in an earlier post regarding pack mentality and it was interesting to study the Mods information regarding this.It was an eye-opener but well received.

I just can't understand your position when you just automatically say have the dog destroyed, because that doesn't help anyone especially when there is professional help out there of which can remedy this problem.