When did the Irish stop speaking Irish?

Orangebrigade

LordSutch wrote: »

Fine Gael attempted this about ten years ago...

Enda's ideas were attacked and shot down in flames from all sides

Being a fluent Irish speaker himself, he wanted to take some of the stigma out of the teaching of Irish, so he suggested removing the compulsory teaching of Irish (post Inter Cert), therby giving the language a new platform to be looked at favourably by those students who wanted to carry it through to their leaving cert (while leaving those not interested in Irish alone) > but even that suggestion got a very negative and verbally violent reaction.

Nothing has been heard since re the suggestion.

Pupils should refuse to learn it. Practically forcing it down the throats of people is wrong.

Caoimhgh1n

Orangebrigade wrote: »

Pupils should refuse to learn it. Practically forcing it down the throats of people is wrong.

The same could be said about maths. Loads of people hate maths, and post j.c maths will not be required in lots of people's lives.

Orangebrigade

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

The same could be said about maths. Loads of people hate maths, and post j.c maths will not be required in lots of people's lives.

Maths is essential and has to be taught if you want balanced citizens.

The Irish language should only be a hobby for people if they want to learn it. Like many cultural arts in the world.

LordSutch

masti123 wrote: »

Irish as a compulsory subject isn't the problem. The way it's thought in schools just needs to be modernised. Currently it's a disgrace the way it's taught; rote learning and uninteresting poetry. Update it and show off the full beauty and power of one of Ireland's most beautiful assets.

Yes I hear what you are saying, and I guess Enda knew this too, pre his aborted suggestion. But after eight or nine decades of failed teaching methods, what do you do when the educational hierarchy see nothing wrong with the present system? decade after decade after decade, and it goes on and on . . .

Caoimhgh1n

Orangebrigade wrote: »

Maths is essential and has to be taught if you want balanced citizens.

The Irish language should only be a hobby for people if they want to learn it. Like many cultural arts in the world.

Post Junior Cert maths is not essential.

Dughorm

Orangebrigade wrote: »

Maths is essential and has to be taught if you want balanced citizens.

Please tell me more...

FloatingVoter

Eugene Norman wrote: »

That would explain bilingualism but not teaching your children to not speak Irish at all. And I don't think we can blame the English. Even if Irish wasn't taught at school it could be taught at home.
You have to go out of your way to not allow your children to speak your language. You can't really speak to them. ( Although it probably happened across 3 generations).


Clearly the peasantry lost all faith in the language. Even hated it.

Why would parents teach them ? You teach your kids what's useful - right from wrong, cross the road safely, don't get pregnant, don't do heroin. When and where would Mary and Joe O' Bloggs get the time to teach their 15 kids some rubbish their grandad mumbles c. 1850 - no Gaelscoils then, just lots of poverty.

Orangebrigade

Dughorm wrote: »

Please tell me more...

Think it speaks for itself. Maths is very important for many areas in life. Without it society is worse off.

Hotei

Orangebrigade wrote: »

Pupils should refuse to learn it. Practically forcing it down the throats of people is wrong.

Out of curiosity, what's your view on the Ulster-Scots "language"?

Caoimhgh1n

Hotei wrote: »

Out of curiosity, what's your view on the Ulster-Scots "language"?

Why "language" and not language?

Hotei

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

Why "language" and not language?

I just think it's bastardised english.

Dughorm

Orangebrigade wrote: »

Think it speaks for itself. Maths is very important for many areas in life. Without it society is worse off.

I happen to be really interested in maths but I can honestly say none of my leaving cert maths has helped me in my employment to date. The LC syllabus for compulsory maths, along with English and Irish would not pass your "important for many areas in life. Without it society is worse off" criteria.

I also happen to think maths should be mandatory but for the same reasons Irish and English should be....

Caoimhgh1n

Hotei wrote: »

I just think it's bastardised english.

Maybe English is bastardised Ulster Scots.

Carlos Orange

riffmongous wrote: »

Yep everything, there is no culture beyond the anglosphere.. such a sad thing to believe

It kinda seems like that whenever I listen to continentals listening to music.

BoatMad

I also happen to think maths should be mandatory but for the same reasons Irish and English should be....

Maths should be compulsory, because we need basic mathematical skills, if the curriculum is wrong it should be changed

English is compulsory because its the lingua franca of our country and the dominant one in the world today

Their is no need for Irish to be compulsory, its not the definition of Irishness or of being Irish. Hence it falls into categories like History or Latin. It should be taught to those that want it and not to those that dont,.

darkpagandeath

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Hate to break it to you but Language is not a defining part of culture.

Eh, it obviously is. Cop on.

masti123

LordSutch wrote: »

Does anyone know if the signatories of the 1916 Proclamation could speak or write Irish?

Pádraig Pearse had a deep interest in the Irish Language and was involved in the Gaelic revival, I'm unsure about the rest of them.
Collins had some interesting views on the Irish language, this is what he wrote in his book:

English civilization made us into the stage Irishman, hardly a caricature. They destroyed our language, all but destroyed it, and in giving us their own they cursed us so that we have become its slaves. Its words seem with us almost an end in themselves, and not as they should be, the medium for expressing our thoughts. We have now won the first victory.
We have secured the departure of the enemy who imposed upon us that by which we were debased, and by means of which he kept us in subjection. We only succeeded after we had begun to get back our Irish ways, after we had made a serious effort to speak our own language, after we had striven again to govern ourselves. We can only keep out the enemy, and all other enemies, by completing that task. We are now free in name. The extent to which we become free in fact and secure our freedom will be the extent to which we become Gaels again.... But the spiritual machine which has been mutilating us, destroying our customs, and our independent life, is not so easy to discern.... And it has become so familiar, how are we to recognise it? We cannot, perhaps. But we can do something else. We can replace it....The biggest task will be the restoration of the language. How can we express our most subtle thoughts and finest feelings in a foreign tongue? Irish will scarcely be our language in this generation, not even perhaps in the next. But until we have it again on our tongues and in our minds we are not free

I wonder what he'd make of Fine Gael's policy on the Irish language :rolleyes:

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

Eh, it obviously is. Cop on.

sorry no its not, an Irishman who only knows English is no more or less an irishman who also happens to speak irish.

Our culture is not exclusively Gaelic

Paramite Pie

Orangebrigade wrote: »

Pupils should refuse to learn it. Practically forcing it down the throats of people is wrong.

It didn't feel forced to me. I didn't like the subject in secondary school but it didn't feel forced. A lot of people are just over-dramatic.

I wonder how many peoples opinions on the language is/was shaped by their parents view. While none of my parents helped me with my schoolwork, I do believe they have positive views towards the language. My Dad picked up a lot of Irish working in pubs in the 70s/80s in Galway. He seems to enjoy a bit of banter in Irish.

BoatMad

English civilization made us into the stage Irishman, hardly a caricature. They destroyed our language, all but destroyed it, and in giving us their own they cursed us so that we have become its slaves. Its words seem with us almost an end in themselves, and not as they should be, the medium for expressing our thoughts. We have now won the first victory.
We have secured the departure of the enemy who imposed upon us that by which we were debased, and by means of which he kept us in subjection. We only succeeded after we had begun to get back our Irish ways, after we had made a serious effort to speak our own language, after we had striven again to govern ourselves. We can only keep out the enemy, and all other enemies, by completing that task. We are now free in name. The extent to which we become free in fact and secure our freedom will be the extent to which we become Gaels again.... But the spiritual machine which has been mutilating us, destroying our customs, and our independent life, is not so easy to discern.... And it has become so familiar, how are we to recognise it? We cannot, perhaps. But we can do something else. We can replace it....The biggest task will be the restoration of the language. How can we express our most subtle thoughts and finest feelings in a foreign tongue? Irish will scarcely be our language in this generation, not even perhaps in the next. But until we have it again on our tongues and in our minds we are not free

If i wanted the introduction piece on a book of the history of the IRA , I might accept this, but its just foaming at the mouth stuff and bears no historical connection to what actually happened, but people like you ( or more correctly your ideas ) , would make me vote to ban the language completely

wrote:

Hate to break it to you but Language is not a defining part of culture.

Deleted User wrote: »

Eh, it obviously is. Cop on.

BoatMad wrote: »

sorry no its not, an Irishman who only knows English is no more or less an irishman who also happens to speak irish.

Our culture is not Gaelic

You haven't thought this through, have you. Deep breath. Re-read. Identity ≠ culture. Carry on.

BoatMad

You haven't thought this through, have you. Deep breath. Re-read. Identity ≠ culture. Carry on.

our cultural identify is a function of our history, it contains elements of various colonisations over the generations, including the cultural input from british colonisation.

Hence we have a cultural definition that is by that history diverse.

A scotmans cultural identify is not defined by his lack of the Scots Gaelic language no more then an Irishmans is . His cultural identify is actually a function of his mix of british and scots history.

equally an Irishmans cultural identity is as much bound up with say the UK, and also to a lesser extent other cultures as much as it is with some idea of a "Gaelic Paddy ". Most of which was a product of Devalera peculiar mindset

Berserker

Paramite Pie wrote: »

It didn't feel forced to me. I didn't like the subject in secondary school but it didn't feel forced. A lot of people are just over-dramatic.

You had the option to study something else instead of Irish, did you? I didn't and you needed to pass Irish to pass your Leaving certificate when I sat mine.

Dirty Dingus McGee

BoatMad wrote: »

Maths should be compulsory, because we need basic mathematical skills, if the curriculum is wrong it should be changed

English is compulsory because its the lingua franca of our country and the dominant one in the world today

Their is no need for Irish to be compulsory, its not the definition of Irishness or of being Irish. Hence it falls into categories like History or Latin. It should be taught to those that want it and not to those that dont,.

Primary school maths is more than enough for the vast majority of people to get by with.

BoatMad

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Primary school maths is more than enough for the vast majority of people to get by with.

indeed, Doncha O'Malley was off his rocker

Paramite Pie

Berserker wrote: »

You had the option to study something else instead of Irish, did you? I didn't and you needed to pass Irish to pass your Leaving certificate when I sat mine.

I clearly said it didn't FEEL forced - that's a perception. I never said it was optional.

It felt no more 'forced' than the other Core Subjects - a subject doesn't magically become more forced than our valued subjects. I didn't think of it any differently than Maths or English even though I recognised they're far more important.

BoatMad

Paramite Pie wrote: »

I clearly said it didn't FEEL forced - that's a perception. I never said it was optional.

It felt no more 'forced' than the other Core Subjects - a subject doesn't magically become more forced than our valued subjects. I didn't think of it any differently than Maths or English even though I recognised they're far more important.

The big issue was the need to have it to gain entry into university or in fact to actually pass your exam

when the college I was applying to , removed the compulsion to have irish in 1978, I never turned up at the irish exam. !!

but i did learn more french in two years then irish in ten , so that says something

we used to have to stand for our primary class irish lessons, all I remember was the pain in me feet

Then we used to listen to a half hour of BBC schools , go figure

dd972

Malcolm600f wrote: »

Have to say I really love when i hear proud Irish knobhead's in a put shouting F the brits or up the ra or tiocfaidh ar la in their best spoken english .Then go over and say something in Irish and look at them stand there bewildered not having a clue ...Proud of been Irish and all anti Brit but yet sit around 365 days of the year speaking the queens english....

I wonder how the term 'queens English' originated, Mrs Saxe-Coburg Gotha surely didn't have English speaking antecedents and why should the language be linked to monarchy?

BoatMad

dd972 wrote: »

I wonder how the term 'queens English' originated, Mrs Saxe-Coburg Gotha surely didn't have English speaking antecedents and why should the language be linked to monarchy?

its convention , that all, the term is equally applied to " Oxford English", " BBC English" etc

Her origins have nothing to do with it.

purplepanda

masti123 wrote: »

Pádraig Pearse had a deep interest in the Irish Language and was involved in the Gaelic revival, I'm unsure about the rest of them.
Collins had some interesting views on the Irish language, this is what he wrote in his book:



I wonder what he'd make of Fine Gael's policy on the Irish language :rolleyes:

I'd wonder what his opinion would be of the Irish patriots over centuries, from Confederate Ireland to United Irishmen & beyond who spoke english as a first language?

In Wexford during the 1798 rising most United Irishmen were english speakers whilst the government militia were often gaelic speakers brought in from other counties to oppress & torture the locals.

When the population finally rebelled their are accounts of loyalist militia begging for their lives in irish to their captors who couldn't understand the language.

The People's Rising: Wexford, 1798 by Daniel Gahan describes such events.

Paramite Pie

BoatMad wrote: »

The big issue was the need to have it to gain entry into university or in fact to actually pass your exam

when the college I was applying to , removed the compulsion to have irish in 1978, I never turned up at the irish exam. !!

but i did learn more french in two years then irish in ten , so that says something

And I'd like to see that changed - immediately but that's the University that forces that (or else some wouldn't drop if it was Government policy).

I had to pass a Foreign Language for a course that had no language module. Weird but at least I enjoyed French.

Nowadays only National University of Ireland requires a pass in Irish. If only the change was quicker though!

BoatMad wrote: »

we used to have to stand for our primary class irish lessons, all I remember was the pain in me feet

Then we used to listen to a half hour of BBC schools , go figure

Did you walk barefoot in six foot of snow as well? As horrible as that was, it's far from the experience now.

Which leaves me to believe that your opinion on mandatory Irish is coming from a very, very different place and - this may sound harsh - a place that's no longer relevant because that's not how we learn it nowadays.

We watched slideshows, sang stupid songs and poorly animated videos of clock eating space monsters. While seated. Nowadays kids learn pop songs translated as gaeilge like the Script and other stuff I saw on youtube. Also while seated. It's not the horror show it once was.

Edgarfrndly

The Irish language stopped being the majority language of Ireland sometime around the end of the 1700's to the early 1800's, depending on who's statistics you reference.

Whatever the case may be, after the famine - it was certainly no longer the majority language, as Irish speaking regions were hit harder than most, due to being isolated and poorer regions of the country. The removal of the language from the national schools during that period, certainly didn't help either.

Some people saw the English language as the language of opportunity, allowing them to better position themselves for work abroad in England or the US.

The future of the language today rests outside of An Ghaeltacht. The purity of the language may be preserved there, but the children of tomorrow will speak Béarla.

The only way it will truly survive is they change that god-awful curriculum, and add a spoken Irish class to allow children to immerse themselves in the language. Anyone, irrespective of how good they are at learning languages can become proficient in the Irish language in 2 years. But only if immersion is part of their acquisition process. It's not a difficult language to learn.

Iwasfrozen

Edgarfrndly wrote: »

The Irish language stopped being the majority language of Ireland sometime around the end of the 1700's to the early 1800's, depending on who's statistics you reference.

Whatever the case may be, after the famine - it was certainly no longer the majority language, as Irish speaking regions were hit harder than most, due to being isolated and poorer regions of the country. The removal of the language from the national schools during that period, certainly didn't help either.

Some people saw the English language as the language of opportunity, allowing them to better position themselves for work abroad in England or the US.

The future of the language today rests outside of An Ghaeltacht. The purity of the language may be preserved there, but the children of tomorrow will speak Béarla.

The only way it will truly survive is they change that god-awful curriculum, and add a spoken Irish class to allow children to immerse themselves in the language. Anyone, irrespective of how good they are at learning languages can become proficient in the Irish language in 2 years. But only if immersion is part of their acquisition process. It's not a difficult language to learn.

It's definitely more difficult to learn than any of the Romance or Germanic languages, and it doesn't help when we have people claiming to be fluent who's Irish is no better than an average 12 year old's English.

Caoimhgh1n

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It's definitely more difficult to learn than any of the Romance or Germanic languages, and it doesn't help when we have people claiming to be fluent who's Irish is no better than an average 12 year old's English.

What is wrong with a 12 year old's English? Some 12 year old's speak better than people in their 30's.

I don't see how it's harder to learn. It's easier in some ways, for me personally. Can you tell me why it is harder and give me some factual evidence?

Father Hernandez

It'd be an awful shame to lose our Irish language IMO. Only time I seem to speak it though is when I'm abroad !

Mesrine65

I would love to speak Gaeilge but unfortunately when inquiring about beginners lessons, there were very few resources & Conradh Na Gaeilge was expensive at €180 for 10 x 1 hour lessons.

If they want our national language to survive their should be a national, government sponsored campaign launched through the library system for example, where it isn't cost prohibitive to the average person wanting to learn.

Orangebrigade

Hotei wrote: »

Out of curiosity, what's your view on the Ulster-Scots "language"?

I don't think Ulster Scots is state funded in Northern Ireland. I stand to be corrected on that. But if it is, it shouldn't be. It doesn't need to be as it is cultural and a hobby for people and in terms of employment, not relevant.

Irish people being forced to learn Irish because they are told it makes you proper Irish basically.

Caoimhgh1n

Mesrine65 wrote: »

I would love to speak Gaeilge but unfortunately when inquiring about beginners lessons, there were very few resources & Conradh Na Gaeilge was expensive at €180 for 10 x 1 hour lessons.

If they want our national language to survive their should be a national, government sponsored campaign launched through the library system for example, where it isn't cost prohibitive to the average person wanting to learn.

I am not sure where you are located, but if you check your local council's website, there is usually a list of the courses available in your locality.

Berserker

Mesrine65 wrote: »

If they want our national language to survive their should be a national, government sponsored campaign launched through the library system for example, where it isn't cost prohibitive to the average person wanting to learn.

On top of all the media coverage it gets from our national broadcaster?

smurgen

Still speak irish as does my sister and half our friends.we all went to irish school and have grown proud of it as we got older.

smurgen

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It's definitely more difficult to learn than any of the Romance or Germanic languages, and it doesn't help when we have people claiming to be fluent who's Irish is no better than an average 12 year old's English.

If you think irish is more difficult to learn than germanic languages you don't know what you're talking about.as a fluent irish speaker for almost 15 years now it most definitely is not.I tried to learn other languages.German and french.french was not too bad as I lived in Geneva and was surrounded by it.German was a completly different story however.found it almost impossible.

Mesrine65

Berserker wrote: »

On top of all the media coverage it gets from our national broadcaster?

Media coverage isn't teaching Gaeilge to the uninitiated though, is it?

freedominacup

masti123 wrote: »

Pádraig Pearse had a deep interest in the Irish Language and was involved in the Gaelic revival, I'm unsure about the rest of them.
Collins had some interesting views on the Irish language, this is what he wrote in his book:



I wonder what he'd make of Fine Gael's policy on the Irish language :rolleyes:

I know if that quote is accurate my estimation of Collins has plummeted.

Caoimhgh1n

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

What is wrong with a 12 year old's English? Some 12 year old's speak better than people in their 30's.

I don't see how it's harder to learn. It's easier in some ways, for me personally. Can you tell me why it is harder and ?

I suspect the English of a 12-year-old is considerably better than the English of the average "Speak English, Paddy!" yob in all their uncouthness here. Truly, their English is atrocious. They've no respect for the nuances of their own language so it explains everything about their hostility to Irish. Furthermore, this crack of their being great at French etc is entertaining when it's clear they're struggling to master, at least, the written element of their own native language of English.

Anybody who loves English (or any language) would make it a matter of pride to write it well. But that would, of course, entail work and dedication. Far easier to attempt to put down another language and its speakers when they're struggling to master their own single language.

darkpagandeath

Deleted User wrote: »

I suspect the English of a 12-year-old is considerably better than the English of the average "Speak English, Paddy!" yob in all their uncouthness here. Truly, their English is atrocious. They've no respect for the nuances of their own language so it explains everything about their hostility to Irish. Furthermore, this crack of their being great at French etc is entertaining when it's clear they're struggling to master, at least, the written element of their own native language of English.

Anybody who loves English (or any language) would make it a matter of pride to write it well. But that would, of course, entail work and dedication. Far easier to attempt to put down another language and its speakers when they're struggling to master their own single language.

1 out of 10...

Iwasfrozen

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

What is wrong with a 12 year old's English? Some 12 year old's speak better than people in their 30's.

I don't see how it's harder to learn. It's easier in some ways, for me personally. Can you tell me why it is harder and give me some factual evidence?

The average 12 year old could barely read a newspaper.

smurgen wrote: »

If you think irish is more difficult to learn than germanic languages you don't know what you're talking about.as a fluent irish speaker for almost 15 years now it most definitely is not.I tried to learn other languages.German and french.french was not too bad as I lived in Geneva and was surrounded by it.German was a completly different story however.found it almost impossible.

If you really think that's the case I suggest maybe your Irish is not as good as you think it is.

Deleted User wrote: »

I suspect the English of a 12-year-old is considerably better than the English of the average "Speak English, Paddy!" yob in all their uncouthness here. Truly, their English is atrocious. They've no respect for the nuances of their own language so it explains everything about their hostility to Irish. Furthermore, this crack of their being great at French etc is entertaining when it's clear they're struggling to master, at least, the written element of their own native language of English.

Anybody who loves English (or any language) would make it a matter of pride to write it well. But that would, of course, entail work and dedication. Far easier to attempt to put down another language and its speakers when they're struggling to master their own single language.

http://www.thisiswhyimbroke.com/images/neckbeard-lighter-640x533.jpg

Caoimhgh1n

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The average 12 year old could barely read a newspaper.

Well, I must now a lot of above average people who are 12.

Iwasfrozen

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

Well, I must now a lot of above average people who are 12.

Or you have a low standard of what constitutes a newspaper.

Caoimhgh1n

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Or you have a low standard of what constitutes a newspaper.

I meant know before by the way..

Why are you so obsessed with Newspapers?

Iwasfrozen

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

I meant know before by the way..

Why are you so obsessed with Newspapers?

I know. What gave you the impression I didn't?

Nothing in particular, but they are a good way of measuring a person's comprehension development. While I would expect an average 12 year old to read an article from the Sun. I would expect them to struggle with the Economist or the Financial Times.