When did the Irish stop speaking Irish?

Junkyard Tom

smurgen wrote: »

Why the **** are you on this site?

Don't let it wind you up. It's pitiful really.

I have made a legitimate and peaceful request for cheddar cheese and pineapple on a stick. :mad:


:pac:

Iwasfrozen

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

It doesn't need a life support machine.

I can not see the language dying any time soon.

Well yes it does. Without state support Irish Gaelic would die.

tomwaterford

smurgen wrote: »

Why the **** are you on this site?

Differing opinions are allowed??

Caoimhgh1n

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Well yes it does. Without state support Irish Gaelic would die.

You aren't even educated on the subject. Irish. French people don't speak French Romance, do they?

The language wouldn't die even then.

Iwasfrozen

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

You aren't even educated on the subject. Irish. French people don't speak French Romance, do they?

The language wouldn't die even then.

If you think gaelic would survive the removal of all state funding you're very very wrong but I would enjoy the experiment.

Caoimhgh1n

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

If you think gaelic would survive the removal of all state funding you're very very wrong but I would enjoy the experiment.

Do we have the same idea of survive?

By dying, I presume you mean NOBODY speaks it anymore. That wouldn't be possible until I die, and my children. (If I have any)

Junkyard Tom

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

By dying, I presume you mean NOBODY speaks it anymore. That wouldn't be possible until I die, and my children. (If I have any)

I think you might be want to consider this before putting any time or energy into the discussion.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Anything that pisses off gaelgeoirs is funny in my book.

Orangebrigade

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Sure you do. That's why you're 'marching' through this thread trying to provoke a reaction. Ah sure t'would remind ye of the good old days before the parades commission, wouldn't it?

We weren't talking about Ulster Scots, you brought it up as you thought I would care about it.

The thread is on the Irish Language. All I have done is point out the struggles of the language.

Orangebrigade

smurgen wrote: »

Why the **** are you on this site?

To post? It is like saying why is a footballer on a football pitch.

Junkyard Tom

Orangebrigade wrote: »

We weren't talking about Ulster Scots, you brought it up as you thought I would care about it.

I didn't mention Ulster Scots at all. Also, I wouldn't get a kick out of pissing-off people who were into Ulster Scots - if that's their thing and it provides them with joy, then good for them.

Orangebrigade

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I didn't mention Ulster Scots at all. Also, I wouldn't get a kick out of pissing-off people who were into Ulster Scots - if that's their thing and it provides them with joy, then good for them.

Must have been one of your nationalist friends then.

smurgen

Orangebrigade wrote: »

Must have been one of your nationalist friends then.

Do you even lift brah?

smurgen

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

If you think gaelic would survive the removal of all state funding you're very very wrong but I would enjoy the experiment.

Don't worry about it.it doesn't affect your life.

Iwasfrozen

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

Do we have the same idea of survive?

By dying, I presume you mean NOBODY speaks it anymore. That wouldn't be possible until I die, and my children. (If I have any)

How good do you think your Irish is? Native level? How good do you think your children's Irish would be without TG4, textbooks or pressure to learn for the leaving cert? Less than yours which is already less than native?

Make no mistake about it. Irish is being kept alive by state support only. At great expense to taxpayers like myself. How many hospital beds could we pay for with that money? How many doctors?

smurgen wrote: »

Don't worry about it.it doesn't affect your life.

Unfortunately it does. I'm currently domicile in Ireland so I pay tax here.

smurgen

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

How good do you think your Irish is? Native level? How good do you think your children's Irish would be without TG4, textbooks or pressure to learn for the leaving cert? Less than yours which is already less than native?

Make no mistake about it. Irish is being kept alive by state support only. At great expense to taxpayers like myself. How many hospital beds could we pay for with that money? How many doctors?

Tg4 is probably the best channel on irish tv.some of the best shows like fíorsceal and the wire have been on it. Also part of our cultural identity is irish.it is something intangible and priceless.it makes us unique.if you don't like it there's not men at the borders stopping you from leaving.I'm sure any other country would love your massive contribution to the exchequer lol.

Caoimhgh1n

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

How good do you think your Irish is? Native level? How good do you think your children's Irish would be without TG4, textbooks or pressure to learn for the leaving cert? Less than yours which is already less than native?

Make no mistake about it. Irish is being kept alive by state support only. At great expense to taxpayers like myself. How many hospital beds could we pay for with that money? How many doctors?



Unfortunately it does. I'm currently domicile in Ireland so I pay tax here.

How did people speak English before BBC, textbooks or pressure to learn it for big examinations?

By speaking. I will speak to my children in Irish, and if they're not up to "native" level, why does it matter? They'll still have some pride.

Iwasfrozen

smurgen wrote: »

Tg4 is probably the best channel on irish tv.some of the best shows like fíorsceal and the wire have been on it. Also part of our cultural identity is irish.it is something intangible and priceless.it makes us unique.if you don't like it there's not men at the borders stopping you from leaving.I'm sure any other country would love your massive contribution to the exchequer lol.

Is leaving the country your first reaction when you disagree with government policy? If not why would you expect it from anyone else?

Iwasfrozen

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

How did people speak English before BBC, textbooks or pressure to learn it for big examinations?

By speaking. I will speak to my children in Irish, and if they're not up to "native" level, why does it matter? They'll still have some pride.

The strength of English is not comparable to Irish.

You didn't answer my question. Do you consider your Irish native level? Your children's fluency would likely be less than yours which is less than native and your grandchildren's will be less again if your children even bothered to pass it on.

I wouldn't be so quick to speak for your children. My maternal grandfather spoke Irish, not native of course he acquired it as a second language like you did. Fancied himself a part of the garlic revival. He had five kids and between them they don't speak one word. It broke my grandfather's heart but what's in the cat often isn't in the kitten.

Orangebrigade

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

How did people speak English before BBC, textbooks or pressure to learn it for big examinations?

By speaking. I will speak to my children in Irish, and if they're not up to "native" level, why does it matter? They'll still have some pride.

Speaking Irish does not make you more Irish. Probably the only reason some want to keep it alive and brainwash people with it. All to suit the "cause".

smurgen

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Is leaving the country your first reaction when you disagree with government policy? If not why would you expect it from anyone else?

If it made me as upset as it appears to upset you I would.harping on about taxpayers money.you sound like a daily mail writer.

Iwasfrozen

smurgen wrote: »

If it made me as upset as it appears to upset you I would.harping on about taxpayers money.you sound like a daily mail writer.

It's extremely important that every cent of government expenditure be scrutinized and justified. If that makes me a daily mail writer in your eyes then so be it.

smurgen

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It's extremely important that every cent of government expenditure be scrutinized and justified. If that makes me a daily mail writer in your eyes then so be it.

It could be worse,we could be spending it on bombs like half the other nations in europe.

Iwasfrozen

smurgen wrote: »

It could be worse,we could be spending it on bombs like half the other nations in europe.

True.

Dughorm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It's extremely important that every cent of government expenditure be scrutinized and justified. If that makes me a daily mail writer in your eyes then so be it.

I completely agree, if money wasn't wasted we could spend more money on developing a new successful Irish curriculum and provide irish teachers with the training and resources they need to really improve the learning of irish!

Iwasfrozen

Dughorm wrote: »

I completely agree, if money wasn't wasted we could spend more money on developing a new successful Irish curriculum and provide irish teachers with the training and resources they need to really improve the learning of irish!

Yeah then we don't agree because I would classify that as waste.

Permabear

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Dughorm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yeah then we don't agree because I would classify that as waste.

And I don't. The sad compromise seems to be to leave things as they are which doesn't really benefit anyone!

Dughorm

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Pity there wasn't that question on the pre famine census. I think those figures alone could be misinterpreted.

Any chance you would have the population for the major urban sites and dublin area and ulster (6 counties) at each of those dates? Because I don't think it is disputed those were primarily English speaking areas.

The real question is when did the irish soeaking areas stop speaking irish in the last 2/300 years. Not when did Dublin stop speaking it (if it ever really did??)

Iwasfrozen

Dughorm wrote: »

And I don't. The sad compromise seems to be to leave things as they are which doesn't really benefit anyone!

As is often the case with compromises. Quite frankly whether the language lives or dies is irrelevant to me. I want to cut expenditure.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Dughorm

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Don't get me wrong here but there's an implicit assumption in your figures and interpretation of the question which is a red herring.... that all irish people did speak irish at one point, which has never been the case!!!

There have always been the Gaelic and non Gaelic speakers on the island at least since the arrival of the vikings! And I do consider the non Gaelic speakers of the past to be Irish as well!!

So while a stat saying that only 23pc were able to speak irish in 1851 might sound like 'a gradual decline' ever since, it masks the fact that the assumed 100pc starting point hasnt existed in millenia (possibly ever).... it's an explanation of the decline from 23pc or prefamine figure to practically zero nowadays is the answer to the question "why did the (irish speakers) stop speaking Irish!"

diograis

Kind of off topic, but you have to laugh at that Benny guy claiming Irish is no harder than German. I'd be one of the oddballs who actually likes Irish and reads books in Irish and watches tg4 etc, but to claim French isnt easier than Irish as an English speaker is ****in bonkers. The case system alone is completely alien. The amount of rubbish that goes around about Irish sometimes is ridiculous.

diograis

I meant French, German has a case system obviously, and is generally considered more difficult 😂

Paramite Pie

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Like English, French and Spanish follow a Subject-Verb-Object format ( I go home, Je vais chez-moi ect..) at their most basic level.

I was reading an article the other day about language acquisition and the various factors that make certain languages easier to acquire - and this one is the biggie.

When I was in Korea I planned to visit China and learned a few basic Chinese phrases from Youtube. Surprisingly, I immediately found it easier than Korean despite being conditioned to think it was hard (everyone says it is!) but now I know why I found it grammatically easier -- it follows the same basic structure above (discounting intonation and other complexities).

To learn a language with a remarkably different structure requires the brain to 're-wire' how it processes information. Ultimately to learn another language you have to be able to think in it and not be translating. After learning Korean for a bit, basic Chinese felt like a release!!:D I had to remember new words but not as much structure. This is likely my people find Irish so hard. That being said, if you've achieved fluency in a very different structure then your cognitive abilities would get a far more dramatic boost than learning 'similar' languages like French and Spanish. But the input required is a lot more.

Permabear wrote: »

In answer to the OP's question...

Only took 277 posts...:pac:

Iwasfrozen

Paramite Pie wrote: »

Like English, French and Spanish follow a Subject-Verb-Object format ( I go home, Je vais chez-moi ect..) at their most basic level.

I was reading an article the other day about language acquisition and the various factors that make certain languages easier to acquire - and this one is the biggie.

When I was in Korea I planned to visit China and learned a few basic Chinese phrases from Youtube. Surprisingly, I immediately found it easier than Korean despite being conditioned to think it was hard (everyone says it is!) but now I know why I found it grammatically easier -- it follows the same basic structure above (discounting intonation and other complexities).

To learn a language with a remarkably different structure requires the brain to 're-wire' how it processes information. Ultimately to learn another language you have to be able to think in it and not be translating. After learning Korean for a bit, basic Chinese felt like a release!!:D I had to remember new words but not as much structure. This is likely my people find Irish so hard. That being said, if you've achieved fluency in a very different structure then your cognitive abilities would get a far more dramatic boost than learning 'similar' languages like French and Spanish. But the input required is a lot more.:

Agreed. Though to be fair I've often heard learning a language improves one's cognitive abilities but how much compared to other academic pursuits?

It takes thousands of hours to learn a language. If those thousands of hours were put into say university level maths would the pay off be greater or lesser I wonder.

Would the payoff be greater or lesser if those thousands of hours were put into learning to play the piano? Or studying high level chess? What is the opportunity cost of Irish?

darkpagandeath

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Agreed. Though to be fair I've often heard learning a language improves one's cognitive abilities but how much compared to other academic pursuits?

It takes thousands of hours to learn a language. If those thousands of hours were put into say university level maths would the pay off be greater or lesser I wonder.

Well a language being a form of communication, And we speak the most prevalent for business. I would wager learning new skill to be more beneficial than leaning a new form of communication. I talk to loads of different mates on Team speak and alike and they even say default is English if you meet someone. Had mate in Denmark telling me they hold important meetings in English it's easier.

Iwasfrozen

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Well a language being a form of communication, And we speak the most prevalent for business. I would wager learning new skill to be more beneficial than leaning a new form of communication. I talk to loads of different mates on Team speak and alike and they even say default is English if you meet someone. Had mate in Denmark telling me they hold important meetings in English it's easier.

English is the world's unofficial language. The Greek of today though some would never admit it.

Maximus Alexander

masti123 wrote: »

I think the real mystery is why Irish people hate Irish so much.

I place the blame firmly on the church and their schools. Genuinely.

Growing up, Irish always seemed to be taught by an overbearing, older priest, or former priest, who seemed a holdover from times long past, with no knack for or apparent interest in teaching, going through the motions and making learning Irish a horrible chore and one of the least appealing things a child or teenager could be put through. This seems to be a relatively common theme when I speak to people of my age who went to different schools than I did.

By contrast, I took up French and German in secondary school and by the end of first year I was far more adept in both than I ever was in Irish. Interestingly, they both tended to be taught by younger, more passionate teachers using more pragmatic methods. Unfortunately, I never had a cause to bother with either language after I left school and I've forgotten most of it, but by the time I sat the Leaving Cert I could hold a conversation in French, and could scarcely tell you what I had for breakfast in Irish.

As an adult I've often thought I'd like to learn Irish, but even contemplating it takes me back to those dreary days of being barked at by an auldfella who seemed to want to be absolutely anywhere else, and so did the rest of us.

Mickey H

masti123 wrote: »

Actually, in the 2011 census, 1.77 million people declared they could speak Irish.

Well, 1.something million may have been stretching the truth a little bit...

Paramite Pie

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Agreed. Though to be fair I've often heard learning a language improves one's cognitive abilities but how much compared to other academic pursuits?

It takes thousands of hours to learn a language. If those thousands of hours were put into say university level maths would the pay off be greater or lesser I wonder.

Would the payoff be greater or lesser if those thousands of hours were put into learning to play the piano? Or studying high level chess? What is the opportunity cost of Irish?

I imagine Piano has a very high cognitive boost as your using improving your sense of hearing (often neglected by us) as well as your sense of touch and spatial awareness -- combining them in someways ways. But does your brain process music the same way as language?

As for Irish, the cognitive boost would be similar to other VSO languages (which curiously, most are minority languages - Mayan, Welsh, Māori with Arabic being a major one) or probably any structure different from our first language. Aurally, the language is far more nuanced in pronunciation than English. Russian has complex broad and slender something or other going on (or so I read) and some sounds found in Irish can be found in Arabic, Polish, Russian, Czech etc.. Any language will give some advantage in learning another it seems. Many of those languages are considered very difficult to English speakers.

I had a good primary education in Irish but not in a gaelscoil. Secondary was kinda meh but I was able to compose essays myself rather than learn of stock phrases (which we were never actually taught!).:D

Cognitively I am an out of the box thinker, and good at solutions - but is that because I'm also good at maths? Overall i'm good at languages too and my pronunciation has been complimented in any language I attempt (notably French & Korean but dabbled with Chinese, Portuguese & recently Swedish). Did Irish help with that? I can't say but it's possible. Tempted to try Arabic for the lolz.:pac:

As far as I know there's been no study specifically on Irish relative to cognitive function as an acquired language nor am I arguing it's better than other languages but if English already eases us into both Germanic and Romance languages our first second language ought to be something a little bit different! If we had enough good Irish teachers and a better curriculum I wonder if we'd see results?

the_syco

Dots1982 wrote: »

Anyone know?

When speaking English equaled work, during the famine.

Paramite Pie

Mickey H wrote: »

Well, 1.something million may have been stretching the truth a little bit...

More than likely but there is 1.24 million learning Irish on a website I'm using.:eek: While not a lot compared to the 50 million learning French or Spanish on the same site -- it's a lot more than I expected! I started using it myself.

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

As an adult I've often thought I'd like to learn Irish, but even contemplating it takes me back to those dreary days of being barked at by an auldfella who seemed to want to be absolutely anywhere else, and so did the rest of us.

Sounds like you had a horrible experience. Nowadays you can learn online with no human interaction! There's audio (voiced by woman - may help lessen the post-traumatic-stress) and images to help. It's free.

https://www.duolingo.com/course/ga/en/Learn-Irish-Online

And if you quit - no one will know. No shame.:D

BoatMad

the_syco wrote: »

When speaking English equaled work, during the famine.

The decline predates the famine. Like a lot of answers and Facebook relationship status , it's complicated , it can not be actually resolved to a sound bite

darkpagandeath

Paramite Pie wrote: »

More than likely but there is 1.24 million learning Irish on a website I'm using.:eek: While not a lot compared to the 50 million learning French or Spanish on the same site -- it's a lot more than I expected! I started using it myself.



Sounds like you had a horrible experience. Nowadays you can learn online with no human interaction! There's audio (voiced by woman - may help lessen the post-traumatic-stress) and images to help. It's free.

https://www.duolingo.com/course/ga/en/Learn-Irish-Online

And if you quit - no one will know. No shame.:D

Accounts under that language would not really count how many are active. Does it remove accounts that have not completed the exams or failed for example.

RandomName2

Dots1982 wrote: »

I'm guessing it was sometime in the 19th century. Anyone know?

Well the problem for a long time was not so much people not speaking Irish as people not writing Irish. Irish certainly lost out to Latin on that count where to be an educated ecclesiastic in the middle ages to early modern era meant writing in Latin. I'm unsure what lasting impacts the Viking invasions had, but certainly some root and grass changes occurred in the wake of the Norman invasion. But while many of those with the greatest power in Ireland didn't speak Irish (e.g. in the Pale) that didn't have enormous impact on rural communities for whom their local lord, rather than the crown or Church was of greatest consideration.

There was no real concerted effort to make people in Ireland stop speaking Irish, but in the 19th century it became increasingly disadvantageous to do so: particularly where urban or foreign migration were concerned.

People (particularly intellectuals and republicans) began to speak it more with the growing nationalistic trends at the turn of the 20th century , but governmental policy after independence seemed to have a negative effect. Although after independence the language had legal and monetary safeguards, forcing people to speak it diminished much of the enthusiasm that the revival movement had witnessed. Since then it has steadily declined; not entirely helped by its embrace by the IRA who use it as a prop. Recent years, with the end of the Troubles, and some loosening of governmental controls have to an extent stopped decline and had the language plateau, but that's at nonetheless really a very low level

TL/DR: yeah, 19th century is a good bet.

Caoimhgh1n

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Accounts under that language would not really count how many are active. Does it remove accounts that have not completed the exams or failed for example.

I do not think it does, I used the same app/site for Spanish before.

Paramite Pie

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Accounts under that language would not really count how many are active. Does it remove accounts that have not completed the exams or failed for example.

I have absolutely no idea but it's worth mentioning that the course launched a little over a year ago -- gaining 143,000 in its first week. So there's certainly demand - mostly in the US among diaspora-- but I can't find a current breakdown of it's one million users. I don't know if any schools encourage it's pupils to use the site so it'd hard to know the current number of Irish people versus diaspora versus language enthusiasts.

I don't think it actively fails you - it's meant be fun and you supposed to keep reinforcing or practicing the lessons after you finish, your stats. There are levels of experience gained to show your progress. Only the site can reveal it's active users and I hope it does.

I'm also doing the French module and there's as many comments under the Irish lessons as there are in the French ones, despite waay more people doing French. I think a lot of people were struggling (a lot of audio wasn't working in the first weeks) but also signs of engagement.

When I reach the more advanced lessons I'll see if there's still people commenting.;)

trixychic

Paramite Pie wrote: »

There's audio (voiced by woman - may help lessen the post-traumatic-stress) and images to help. It's free.

https://www.duolingo.com/course/ga/en/Learn-Irish-Online

And if you quit - no one will know. No shame.:D

Omg this is brilliant. Thank you so much. New years resolution. Learn Irish! !!!!

catbear

I wouldn't take interest in Irish in places like the US as signs of some revival. I used to work in a bookshop there where I:d sell loads of Irish dictionaries to culturally interested, the following week the same people would be buyimga Korean dictionary. A lot of their interest is notional.

purplepanda

Orangebrigade wrote: »

I don't care for Ulster Scots. Typical Nationalists response just because a Unionist tells the truth.

That's a shame I was hoping to gain more support for my Yola language project since it's part of the same Anglo Frisian family as Ulster Scots.

Of course a very well paid executive salary after I become managing director of said taxpayer funded project wouldn't go amiss :rolleyes: