Why do you hate Irish?

ancapailldorcha

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

You've argued that teaching Irish was pointless but so are so many other subjects yet nobody ever suggests we should get rid of a wide range of subjects that are taught in school.Irish is about as pointless as any other subject in school and your suggestion of having an education tailored to each individual student isn't remotely practical.

They're useful. This isn't a reason for keeping Irish by the way.

Dughorm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

So it's the "ah sure, it's our culture" nonsense then. Why not campaign for roof-thatching, farming, paganism and so on to be included in our curriculum given that it's so important then?

Well obviously I'd insist that the literature on the syllabus would include encomiums of roof-thatching, farming and paganism - just to cover all the bases ya know :pac:

The King of Moo

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

So the state should bear the absurd of propping up the scrounging Irish language lobby.

There are huge benefits to primary-age children learning a second language. Exposure to a language outside of the classroom is also crucial for normalisation and consolidation of a language in people of all ages but especially children. They need immersion, or as close to it as possible to effectively learn, and most Irish children will encounter more Irish in this way than any other language.

Do you think Irish should be taught (well) in primary schools, another language, or no second language at all at that stage?

Peregrine

I don't hate Irish. I hated the way it was taught in school.

Pac1Man wrote: »

Léigh anois go cúramach ar do scrúdpháipéar na treoracha agus na ceisteanna a ghabhann le cuid A.

BEEEEEEEEEP

Dirty Dingus McGee

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

They're useful. This isn't a reason for keeping Irish by the way.

It's never a good idea to let a language die out so there is a perfectly good reason to keep Irish on the curriculum.If anything more emphasis should be put on it a primary school so that everyone coming out of primary school is fluent in the language.

ancapailldorcha

The King of Moo wrote: »

There are huge benefits to primary-age children learning a second language. Exposure to a language outside of the classroom is also crucial for normalisation and consolidation of a language in people of all ages but especially children. They need immersion, or as close to it as possible to effectively learn. Do you think Irish should be taught (well) in primary schools, another language, or no second language at all at that age?

What are these benefits? I'd make it optional for children to learn a second language, ideally German, Spanish or Mandarin.

strelok

The King of Moo wrote: »

There are huge benefits to primary-age children learning a second language. Exposure to a language outside of the classroom is also crucial for normalisation and consolidation of a language in people of all ages but especially children. They need immersion, or as close to it as possible to effectively learn. Do you think Irish should be taught (well) in primary schools, another language, or no second language at all at that age?

learning a second language that might be of some benefit to children in their future is one thing. banging their heads against a wall learning a dead language everybody knows is only being taught to appease a tiny minority of cultural purists is quite another

ancapailldorcha

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

It's never a good idea to let a language die out so there is a perfectly good reason to keep Irish on the curriculum.If anything more emphasis should be put on it a primary school so that everyone coming out of primary school is fluent in the language.

I've explained this many times over these threads. The current system is choking the life out of it, plain and simple. It's not about teaching the language, it's about the self-interest of the teachers' unions, the Irish language lobby, etc...

strelok

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I've explained this many times over these threads. The current system is choking the life out of it, plain and simple. It's not about teaching the language, it's about the self-interest of the teachers' unions, the Irish language lobby, etc...

new law coming in next year that all online posts made in Ireland must be translated into Irish too.

Dughorm

strelok wrote: »

learning a second language that might be of some benefit to children in their future is one thing. banging their heads against a wall learning a dead language everybody knows is only being taught to appease a tiny minority of cultural purists is quite another

And yet if Irish was declared dead and removed from syllabi in the morning there'd be widespread uproar - perhaps because the "cultural purists" aren't running the show, there's actually widespread support in the general population for people to know more about Irish and it's impressive literary corpus.

Sh1tbag OToole

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

So it's the "ah sure, it's our culture" nonsense then. Why not campaign for roof-thatching, farming, paganism and so on to be included in our curriculum given that it's so important then?

Roof thatching is not a bad skill to be thought in school. Even if they never thatch another roof it'd learn 'em the value of good workmanship. Preferably they should thatch the bit of roof directly above them

starry_eyed

Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »

Roof thatching is not a bad skill to be thought in school. Even if they never thatch another roof it'd learn 'em the value of good workmanship. Preferably they should thatch the bit of roof directly above them

It's a dying trade apparently. I know someone who is trained in it though.

masti123

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

So it's the "ah sure, it's our culture" nonsense then. Why not campaign for roof-thatching, farming, paganism and so on to be included in our curriculum given that it's so important then?

A lot of that is covered in history class, with paganism occasionally being covered in religion, generally not Celtic paganism.
There are two school subjects( ag econ and ag science) dedicated to agriculture currently at LC level, with chemistry and biology also including several agricultural components. I believe the business subjects also deal with it a bit as well. Developments and traditional farming methods are covered in JC history. JC science and business also deal with aspects of farming.

However, the above aside, the Irish language has a much bigger influence on our culture today than those. Paganism only influences our culture in the sense of how it has influence Christianity here, which isn't a whole lot in the sense of Celtic paganism. Thatched roofs are part of a traditional image of Ireland, but I wouldn't describe them as part of the cultural makeup of ourselves, no more than slate roofs are today.

ancapailldorcha

Dughorm wrote: »

And yet if Irish was declared dead and removed from syllabi in the morning there'd be widespread uproar - perhaps because the "cultural purists" aren't running the show, there's actually widespread support in the general population for people to know more about Irish and it's impressive literary corpus.

Because there are plenty of begrudgers who would deny the next generation the chance to skip it. It is dead in any case. The market has no interest in it, neither do people at large once the expensive token gestures are made.

Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »

Roof thatching is not a bad skill to be thought in school. Even if they never thatch another roof it'd learn 'em the value of good workmanship. Preferably they should thatch the bit of roof directly above them

While the US multinationals who fuel the economy have to import staff. This attitude is exactly why so many people have had to emigrate.

ancapailldorcha

masti123 wrote: »

However, the above aside, the Irish language has a much bigger influence on our culture today than those.

Such as?

Dirty Dingus McGee

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

They're useful. This isn't a reason for keeping Irish by the way.

Most of what you learn in school is not useful in any practical way.I spent thousands of hours studying subjects for my leaving cert that ceased to be of any use to me once I finished my exams.

Dughorm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Because there are plenty of begrudgers who would deny the next generation the chance to skip it. It is dead in any case. The market has no interest in it, neither do people at large once the expensive token gestures are made.

When did "the market" ever have an interest in it? Why does "the market" trump beauty, wisdom and tradition?

ancapailldorcha

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Most of what you learn in school is not useful in any practical way.I spent thousands of hours studying subjects for my leaving cert that ceased to be of any use to me once I finished my exams.

Why does this mean we should keep indulging the Irish language lobby? If all else fails, shift the goalposts I suppose...

Iwasfrozen

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

People are forced to do Maths even though leaving cert maths will be completely useless to the vast majority of people who study it.

Maths shouldn't be compulsory, but that's another matter. This thread is about Irish.

Dughorm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Such as?

Ah now - have you ever stepped foot outside of Dublin? It influences rhythms of speech, humour, vocabulary, legacy - I don't know where to start

Iwasfrozen

The King of Moo wrote: »

There are huge benefits to primary-age children learning a second language. Exposure to a language outside of the classroom is also crucial for normalisation and consolidation of a language in people of all ages but especially children. They need immersion, or as close to it as possible to effectively learn, and most Irish children will encounter more Irish in this way than any other language.

Do you think Irish should be taught (well) in primary schools, another language, or no second language at all at that stage?

That sounds like an argument to teach a second language in primary school, not an argument to teach Irish specifically.

Dughorm wrote: »

When did "the market" ever have an interest in it? Why does "the market" trump beauty, wisdom and tradition?

The market has more beauty, wisdom and tradition than Irish ever had.

ancapailldorcha

Dughorm wrote: »

Ah now - have you ever stepped foot outside of Dublin? It influences rhythms of speech, humour, vocabulary, legacy - I don't know where to start

I'm from Donegal. Such influence would have occurred regardless. Americans, Australians, Canadians, New Zealanders and South Africans each have their own dialect of English.

bodice ripper

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

It's never a good idea to let a language die out so there is a perfectly good reason to keep Irish on the curriculum.If anything more emphasis should be put on it a primary school so that everyone coming out of primary school is fluent in the language.

Screw that. When I was in primary, it was half the damn day. It made me truly unhappy, took up huge amounts of time that could have been spent learning anything else, at a period in life when children are info sponges. What a waste. I still feel ****ing cheated.

Zaph

A lot of people are saying they hate Irish because of the way it's taught, but tbh I think that's a bit unfair to the many teachers who were probably doing their best with what was available to them. It wasn't the teachers that were the problem, it was the curriculum. There was absolutely nothing relevant to life in the 1980s in the curriculum. Instead we had to endure sh*te like Peig waffling on about having to smoke tea in her pipe because she had no tobacco, or short stories from a book called M'Asal Beag Dubh, written by some guy who died in the 1920s. It was truly shocking how little thought was put into updating the course content, and it's no wonder a lot of people of my generation hate Irish so much as a result. Personally I wouldn't say I hate Irish, but rather it has very little impact or relevance in my life. However I do think that what was taught when I was in school was a monumental waste of everyone's time considering I can only string a few fairly basic sentences together despite having been taught it for over a decade.

ancapailldorcha

Well said, Zaph. I've little to no issue with the language itself. What I hate with every fibre of my being is the pandering of successive governments to the Irish language lobby. The language has been hollowed out so that special interest groups can grow fat off the Irish taxpayer's teat. The English didn't kill it. We managed to do that in the past 100 years.

Dughorm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The market has more beauty, wisdom and tradition than Irish ever had.

Speechless - I didn't realise I was talking to a true believer in market capitalism :eek: Do you have a bust of Adam Smith in your house? :pac:

Iwasfrozen

Zaph wrote: »

A lot of people are saying they hate Irish because of the way it's taught, but tbh I think that's a bit unfair to the many teachers who were probably doing their best with what was available to them. It wasn't the teachers that were the problem, it was the curriculum. There was absolutely nothing relevant to life in the 1980s in the curriculum. Instead we had to endure sh*te like Peig waffling on about having to smoke tea in her pipe because she had no tobacco, or short stories from a book called M'Asal Beag Dubh, written by some guy who died in the 1920s. It was truly shocking how little thought was put into updating the course content, and it's no wonder a lot of people of my generation hate Irish so much as a result. Personally I wouldn't say I hate Irish, but rather it has very little impact or relevance in my life. However I do think that what was taught when I was in school was a monumental waste of everyone's time considering I can only string a few fairly basic sentences together despite having been taught it for over a decade.

It was the fault of the Department of Education which made Irish compulsory in the first place. Teachers were also complacent in enforcing the status quo instead of campaigning trough their unions to amend or preferably remove the Irish language curriculum.

Dughorm wrote: »

Speechless - I didn't realise I was talking to a true believer in market capitalism Do you have a bust of Adam Smith in your house?

Nope.

The King of Moo

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

What are these benefits? I'd make it optional for children to learn a second language, ideally German, Spanish or Mandarin.

Ability to learn other languages when they're older and can choose which other languages to learn, and why.

Ability to use grammatically-correct English (and going by the number of people writing "It's the way it was thought." I want to start a "Why do you hate English?" thread!). When you really learn a second language well you can see your native tongue as a learner might, and really get to see its structures.

Improved self confidence. It's a powerful things to be able to express yourself in another language.

Increased grey matter in the brain. Like maths, the analytical and pattern recognition elements of learning language do wonders at boosting general brainpower, and particularly speech, processing information, memory and sensory perception. In more day-to-day terms, there's lots of research showing that early language learners perform better academically.

In more meta terms, it also opens up the mind to seeing different ways of understanding the world, understanding problems and finding solutions, because of the ways different languages express different concepts.

I don't fancy optional languages at primary school at all? First there's the issue of cost and provision.

Then there's the issue of immersion. Realistically, how many people will a six-year old learning Chinese get to do speaking practice (the most important element of language acquisition) with? What Chinese TV will he watch? What German shop signs will another student pass on the way home?

I'd much prefer Irish were kept at primary level but taught in an engaging fashion with student-focused, speaking-heavy lessons. Teachers should also incorporate Irish outside the classroom into homework (e.g. watch something on TG4 and give an oral presentation the next day).

Dirty Dingus McGee

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Why does this mean we should keep indulging the Irish language lobby? If all else fails, shift the goalposts I suppose...

I've explained in a post earlier that the reason it should be kept is to not let the language die out and more focus should be put on it at primary school level so that children can be fluent in the language.

I couldn't give a toss about the Irish language lobby.It's about not letting a language die out.

ancapailldorcha

Dughorm wrote: »

When did "the market" ever have an interest in it? Why does "the market" trump beauty, wisdom and tradition?

What "beauty, wisdom and tradition?" You might want to ask the victims of the Catholic Church what they think of tradition.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The market has more beauty, wisdom and tradition than Irish ever had.

Well said.

Dughorm wrote: »

Speechless - I didn't realise I was talking to a true believer in market capitalism :eek: Do you have a bust of Adam Smith in your house? :pac:

Ah no, let's pander to the "it's our culture" brigade while anyone with any common sense does everything they can to flee the country.

Dughorm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'm from Donegal. Such influence would have occurred regardless. Americans, Australians, Canadians, New Zealanders and South Africans each have their own dialect of English.

I don't think you're giving Irish its due place relegating it to the level of "an influencing factor" to a dialect as in other country's English dialects, as if it doesn't exist in its own right.

Dirty Dingus McGee

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Ah no, let's pander to the "it's our culture" brigade while anyone with any common sense does everything they can to flee the country.

:rolleyes:

The vast majority of people don't emigrate from this country and the vast majority of those that do don't want to emigrate.

Iwasfrozen

The King of Moo wrote: »

Ability to learn other languages when they're older and can choose which other languages to learn, and why.

Ability to use grammatically-correct English (and going by the number of people writing "It's the way it was thought." I want to start a "Why do you hate English?" thread!). When you really learn a second language well you can see your native tongue as a learner might, and really get to see its structures.

Improved self confidence. It's a powerful things to be able to express yourself in another language.

Increased grey matter in the brain. Like maths, the analytical and pattern recognition elements of learning language do wonders at boosting general brainpower, and particularly speech, processing information, memory and sensory perception. In more day-to-day terms, there's lots of research showing that early language learners perform better academically.

In more meta terms, it also opens up the mind to seeing different ways of understanding the world, understanding problems and finding solutions, because of the ways different languages express different concepts.

I don't fancy optional languages at primary school at all? First there's the issue of cost and provision.

Then there's the issue of immersion. Realistically, how many people will a six-year old learning Chinese get to do speaking practice (the most important element of language acquisition) with? What Chinese TV will he watch? What German shop signs will another student pass on the way home?

I'd much prefer Irish were kept at primary level but taught in an engaging fashion with student-focused, speaking-heavy lessons. Teachers should also incorporate Irish outside the classroom into homework (e.g. watch something on TG4 and give an oral presentation the next day).

Again. this is all support for second language learning, not Irish in particular.

Why not teach Spanish or French? The benefits are all there, including additional benefits in terms of improved ability to attract MNC's here. Think of the question in terms of why should Irish be a compulsory language rather than second language learning in general.

ancapailldorcha

The King of Moo wrote: »

I'd much prefer Irish were kept at primary level but taught in an engaging fashion with student-focused, speaking-heavy lessons. Teachers should also incorporate Irish outside the classroom into homework (e.g. watch something on TG4 and give an oral presentation the next day).

Fair point but this would involve a massive overhaul of the curriculum, something the teachers' unions would stop dead.

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

I've explained in a post earlier that the reason it should be kept is to not let the language die out and more focus should be put on it at primary school level so that children can be fluent in the language.

I couldn't give a toss about the Irish language lobby.It's about not letting a language die out.

If you don't want it dying out, then the only logical step is to remove compulsory Irish from schools. Some will be drawn to it the same way some voluntarily learn archaic skills because they're interested in their culture. The current state of affairs foments resentment and disdain for it at the present. If it's not currently dead then it soon will be.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Zaph wrote: »

A lot of people are saying they hate Irish because of the way it's taught, but tbh I think that's a bit unfair to the many teachers who were probably doing their best with what was available to them. It wasn't the teachers that were the problem, it was the curriculum. There was absolutely nothing relevant to life in the 1980s in the curriculum. Instead we had to endure sh*te like Peig waffling on about having to smoke tea in her pipe because she had no tobacco, or short stories from a book called M'Asal Beag Dubh, written by some guy who died in the 1920s. It was truly shocking how little thought was put into updating the course content, and it's no wonder a lot of people of my generation hate Irish so much as a result. Personally I wouldn't say I hate Irish, but rather it has very little impact or relevance in my life. However I do think that what was taught when I was in school was a monumental waste of everyone's time considering I can only string a few fairly basic sentences together despite having been taught it for over a decade.

Oh totally - and a curriculum that sets its goals as students passing exams and not students learning the lanaguge in the first place.

I had a lot of Irish teachers, some good some bad, one or two violent. The problem was that the good ones got their hands on my long after the damage was done.

When we say "the way it's being taught", we're not being literal here.

ancapailldorcha

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

:rolleyes:

The vast majority of people don't emigrate from this country and the vast majority of those that do don't want to emigrate.

I'm talking about what would happen by increasing the amount of pandering to these special interest groups you seem to advocate.

Dirty Dingus McGee

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Fair point but this would involve a massive overhaul of the curriculum, something the teachers' unions would stop dead.



If you don't want it dying out, then the only logical step is to remove compulsory Irish from schools. Some will be drawn to it the same way some voluntarily learn archaic skills because they're interested in their culture. The current state of affairs foments resentment and disdain for it at the present. If it's not currently dead then it soon will be.

I don't think it does though.

Nobody in my school whinged about doing Irish no more than any other subject.

The people who always seem to have an issue with Irish are people who aren't actually in school studying it.

ancapailldorcha

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

The people who always seem to have an issue with Irish are people who aren't actually in school studying it.

Eh?

Dirty Dingus McGee

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'm talking about what would happen by increasing the amount of pandering to these special interest groups you seem to advocate.

I doubt that would happen.You're being quite melodramatic about the supposed negative impact of the irish language.

The King of Moo

strelok wrote: »

learning a second language that might be of some benefit to children in their future is one thing. banging their heads against a wall learning a dead language everybody knows is only being taught to appease a tiny minority of cultural purists is quite another

It's tricky to settle on one language to choose as being the one most likely to be used for various reasons by children later in life (and for reasons of immersion and speaking opportunities I believe it should only be one language, and it's difficult to give children real-life context and reminders of another language here apart from English and Irish.

ancapailldorcha

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

I doubt that would happen.You're being quite melodramatic about the supposed negative impact of the irish language.

Dig through older threads on the subject and you'll see plenty of posters echoing my comments here.

FloatingVoter

Zaph wrote: »

A lot of people are saying they hate Irish because of the way it's taught, but tbh I think that's a bit unfair to the many teachers who were probably doing their best with what was available to them. It wasn't the teachers that were the problem, it was the curriculum. There was absolutely nothing relevant to life in the 1980s in the curriculum. Instead we had to endure sh*te like Peig waffling on about having to smoke tea in her pipe because she had no tobacco, or short stories from a book called M'Asal Beag Dubh, written by some guy who died in the 1920s. It was truly shocking how little thought was put into updating the course content, and it's no wonder a lot of people of my generation hate Irish so much as a result. Personally I wouldn't say I hate Irish, but rather it has very little impact or relevance in my life. However I do think that what was taught when I was in school was a monumental waste of everyone's time considering I can only string a few fairly basic sentences together despite having been taught it for over a decade.

I snored through Peig and her self-pity too. It was the violence of my "teachers" that failed to impress me. I don't feel sorry for them - just their children - that sadism did not stop at the school gates. Frustrated zealots are dangerous to a child. The two Irish "teachers" I came across at secondary school were not stifled by the system, more empowered by it.
And yes, corporal punishment was outlawed in 1982. It continued until at least about 1990. Though by about age 16, when you could damage the toads physically - they stopped.
So yeah, I wont't need higher level maths or the finer points of Wordsworth next week. But I will associate Irish with frightened children and violent dangerous adults.

Sh1tbag OToole

starry_eyed wrote: »

It's a dying trade apparently. I know someone who is trained in it though.

There was always some peculiar Irish word for a person of that trade, do ya happen to know what it is?

Peregrine

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

The people who always seem to have an issue with Irish are people who aren't actually in school studying it.

As someone who moderates the Leaving Cert forum, I can confirm that this is definitely not the case.

ancapailldorcha

I was spared Peig. Was it really that bad?

Dirty Dingus McGee

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Dig through older threads on the subject and you'll see plenty of posters echoing my comments here.

Those posters would be part of a tiny minority.

starry_eyed

Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »

There was always some peculiar Irish word for a person of that trade, do ya happen to know what it is?

Wouldn't have a clue. Just thought 'Thatcher' was the usual for it. I could ask him but that would require effort.

FloatingVoter

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I was spared Peig. Was it really that bad?

Oh Jesus, yes....Irish bias aside -even the English translation is up there with Mein Kampf for badly written rubbish.

Dirty Dingus McGee

Peregrine wrote: »

As someone who moderates the Leaving Cert forum, I can confirm that this is definitely not the case.

Things must have changed a lot in 10 years because there were not too many in my time doing the leaving cert complaining about it above any other subject.

ancapailldorcha

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Those posters would be part of a tiny minority.

Based on?