Why do you hate Irish?

Lia_lia

I don't mind Irish too much. Some people in school really hated it. I found it pretty easy to pick up in primary school, probably because I was just after moving from France so was used to learning a language anyway. Also think it was taught better in primary school.

Wasn't one of my best subjects in secondary school, I don't think the way it was taught was great. Too many poems and learning off essays. I think the oral part of LC Irish is 50% now. Wish it was that when I was in school. Found that part very easy. Much easier to speak a language than write an essay about global warming..

mickotoole

Jaysus the modh conhiloch nearly killed me (in fact I still can't spell it right) but I've got to admit my minimal Irish let's my wife know whether the kids should heave ice cream or not!

The King of Moo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Again. this is all support for second language learning, not Irish in particular.

Why not teach Spanish or French? The benefits are all there, including additional benefits in terms of improved ability to attract MNC's here. Think of the question in terms of why should Irish be a compulsory language rather than second language learning in general.

I covered that: you can't get immersion in French and Spanish in Ireland. Unless we change the Irish on every sign and import lots of French or Spanish speakers, we won't be able to teach either language effectively.
It simply makes most sense to teach Irish at primary level (only as a compulsory subject then, optional at Second level) because there's more everyday Irish for children to passive absorb, which is essential for children. It's basically the principle behind gaelscoils and summer schools in the Gaeltacht in a much broader sense.

There's plenty of time for children to be learning languages for business and work reasons when they're teenagers. Before then it should be about improving their general cognition, mental development and later language acquisition. A child taught Irish really well will probably learn French better over five years as a teenager than one who had to learn it from four or five-years old.

Dughorm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

What "beauty, wisdom and tradition?" You might want to ask the victims of the Catholic Church what they think of tradition.

Ah no, let's pander to the "it's our culture" brigade while anyone with any common sense does everything they can to flee the country.

Wow, the bitterness is strong, comparing language tradition (and I clearly meant tradition in the context of language) to "victims of the Catholic Church", doesn't do justice to either IMHO but anyhow....

I'm not sure what more I can say to you - the tradition and wisdom of "the market" hasn't been kind to Ireland be it in 2008, most of the 20th century or the 1840-50s.

I suppose "the market" does possess the Victorian Spencerian beauty of the mechanical grinding action of a shark chewing its victim or vultures pecking a carcass or a nation starving because they just *don't get with the programme* but it doesn't do it for me, I'll order a Bardic Verse with an ironic twist as my tipple.

Sh1tbag OToole

starry_eyed wrote: »

Wouldn't have a clue. Just thought 'Thatcher' was the usual for it. I could ask him but that would require effort.

It was as gaeilge, can't find it on focloir or wiki

Dirty Dingus McGee

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Based on?

Based on what I said earlier that the vast majority of people don't emigrate from this country and the vast majority of those that do don't want to emigrate regardless of what is happening in this country.

Atlantic Dawn

It's taught by backwards means, the textbooks and audio tapes were a good 20 years out of fashion with what was in and what was out when I was in school. The idiots teaching it in schools were by the majority sticking to the same rubbish books year in year out and could not see they were utter out and out sheite and didn't promote or question changing them. If you stuck on R Na G for half an hour instead the class would be more productive. People like Hector and Des Bishop showed what could be done learning the language in an alternative way. Up until mid 90's the language was in a condition where it should have been taken outside and shot dead. There is now in part a revival mainly driven by elitism with people educating their kids in Gael Scoileanna, this needs to be accompanied by a complete scrappage of the current curriculam and a complete rebuild if the language is to be around and grow.

Penny Tration

I don't hate Irish.

A lot of people say they still can't string a sentence together and they passed exams by learning by rote.

That's simply bad teaching. It's not that it's a difficult language. I and one sister had the same Irish teacher in secondary school, both of us can read, write and converse in Irish - though probably not fluently anymore! Two other sisters had different Irish teachers and couldn't make up one sentence between them.

A good teacher can teach Irish properly.

Iwasfrozen

The King of Moo wrote: »

I covered that: you can't get immersion in French and Spanish in Ireland. Unless we change the Irish on every sign and import lots of French or Spanish speakers, we won't be able to teach either language effectively.
It simply makes most sense to teach Irish at primary level (only as a compulsory subject then, optional at Second level) because there's more everyday Irish for children to passive absorb, which is essential for children. It's basically the principle behind gaelscoils and summer schools in the Gaeltacht in a much broader sense.

There's plenty of time for children to be learning languages for business and work reasons when they're teenagers. Before then it should be about improving their general cognition, mental development and later language acquisition. A child taught Irish really well will probably learn French better over five years as a teenager than one who had to learn it from four or five-years old.

Except we can. Immersion is not place names on signs, immersion is access to media, and we have access to Spanish and French media. Much more so than Irish. What everyday Irish do children pick up outside school? I can't think of any.

Learning Spanish and/or French improves a child's general cognition, mental development and later language acquisition. In the latter case much more so as Spanish and French are both Romance languages and can aid in the acquisition of other Romance languages far more than Irish can.

A child thought Irish really well from a young age will be at a disadvantage learning French than a child thought Spanish really well from a young age.

There is no argument for Irish immersion learning over immersion learning in a useful language.

Dirty Dingus McGee

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Except we can. Immersion is not place names on signs, immersion is access to media, and we have access to Spanish and French media. Much more so than Irish. What everyday Irish do children pick up outside school? I can't think of any.

Learning Spanish and/or French improves a child's general cognition, mental development and later language acquisition. In the latter case much more so as Spanish and French are both Romance languages and can aid in the acquisition of other Romance languages far more than Irish can.

A child thought Irish really well from a young age will be at a disadvantage learning French than a child thought Spanish really well from a young age.

There is an Irish language TV channel with childrens programmes in irish.

starry_eyed

Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »

It was as gaeilge, can't find it on focloir or wiki

It's registering with straw 'strac', strae' so it would be a variation on those maybe.
'Buachan' is the lofty piece of the house.

Iwasfrozen

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

There is an Irish language TV channel with childrens programmes in irish.

How many watch? I certainly don't know any kids who watch TG4.

Penny Tration

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

How many watch? I certainly don't know any kids who watch TG4.

My old Irish teacher has all of her students watch tg4 each night for 30 minutes as part of their homework assignment :pac:

Hugo Stiglitz

It clutters up signposts.

My potential love for it was squashed by turgid and joyless teaching in secondary school

Dirty Dingus McGee

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

How many watch? I certainly don't know any kids who watch TG4.

How many access French and Spanish media like you mentioned earlier? Not many would be my guess.

They have an opportunity to access Irish language media if they want to.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

There is an Irish language TV channel with childrens programmes in irish.

Except kids watch TV to be entertained. On top of that, the porgrammes are originally in English and as anyone will tell you, programmes are always better tin the langauge they were written (especially when it's also the lamgauge you actually speak).

This brings is back to square one: people that don't like Irish, tend to not like it because it's something they see as a school subject and not an actual langauge. And no one in the education department seems to be all that botherred about changing this!!!! (That point in that last sentence is the bit I will never be able to get my head around)

I moved around a lot growing up. Can genuinely say that the standard and structure of teaching of Irish was hugely varied and dependent on the teacher, much mord so than any other subject. I think that is backed up by the variations of ability and enthusiasm in irish teachers described by the many posts in the thread.

This being the case, it was the first (and really the only) subject that suffered as a result of my having several different national/secondary schools- I was never really starting from of heading to the same position as the others, and that's before throwing in regional variations!

Other than that- I think people have covered the resentment that compulsory Irish through leaving cert causes, its genuinely totally counterproductive imo. Add to this the fruitless and disproportionate hours spent on it at primary level and you can see where people without grá or ability for it can grow passionate in their dislike.

The eh not fact maybe "feeling" one can get, not so much from individuals who love Irish themselves but rather the establishment invested in it, that there is an onus on one to learn Irish for reasons other than either a love for it or an understanding that it is a useful option for one's future and the tone oftentimes of moral superiority that this message can be conveyed with is often very grating. Have to say that this attitude isnt from the gaeilgeoiri I know (and envy!) but from the Irish times letter writers and lobbyists.

For the record, I hated Irish as a teenager and didn't have to sit in class after dropping down to pass, and had a chip on my shoulder for years about it. Now I'm quite fond of it despite not having much useful ability in it, but love to hear it and think it a beautiful language spoken or sung. I'd have aspirations to get conversational if the time were available to me now and had I faith that good teaching of it were available.

Iwasfrozen

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

How many access French and Spanish media like you mentioned earlier? Not many would be my guess.

They have an opportunity to access Irish language media if they want to.

Everyone has access if French or Spanish media if they want their kids to watch it. Much more media and in much more variety than one under funded Irish language station.

masti123

I think the Irish language should stay compulsory but we need to implement a more effective way of teaching it. There are a number of areas we could look at, the first being:

• The Language Environment. On the continent, kids are immersed in English from a young age by movies, tv and music - a great incentive to become proficient in a foreign tongue. While trying to make Irish appealing to most kids by making it cool would be totally futile, I still think TG4 is the best tool at promoting Irish in or outside of schools. Why? Because they're still listening and processing the Irish, which greatly enhances their ability to speak it. It's world's better than training sleepy eyes on boring textbooks. If this means the teacher plays a dubbed episode of Spongebob or South Park (or some nature documentary) for the class and then discusses it with them afterwards, then so be it. It may not look like traditional learning, but kids will actually learn much more from it.
  [*]Give them some context. Part of the reason Irish is seen as irrelevant is because people (and not just students) can't see it connected to anything. Which is why I think a major part of the Irish curriculum should be ancient and medieval Irish history as well as our rich mythology, Fionn MacCuil, Cú Chulainn etc. Giving kids some historical context and letting them understand how our ancestors lived would go a long way to rectifying this problem. As well as standard history lessons (either in Irish or English) this could be supplemented by field trips to historical recreation centres where they've reconstructed crannogs and the like.

Iwasfrozen

masti123 wrote: »

I think the Irish language should stay compulsory but we need to implement a more effective way of teaching it. There are a number of areas we could look at, the first being:

Why? I'm not interested in the revival or survival of the Irish language. Why should the state dictate what my kids learn? [If I ever have any in Ireland]

BoatMad

I think the Irish language should stay compulsory but we need to implement a more effective way of teaching it. There are a number of areas we could look at, the first being:

but why, if an "effective" way can be found to teach it, why does it need to be compulsory. It always seems that , while advocates , always go on about better teaching methods,they dont what you to have free will on the matter either. Are they afraid, people might avoid it, effective teaching or not.

Why shouldn't it be a language choice like any other

Forgot to say this, and I think it links in with the immersion point above: the most and best I ever learned gaeilge was from listening to raidio roy on gift grub. make something worth understanding and give people a payoff and they'll learn with pleasure.

Eugene Norman

BoatMad wrote: »

but why, if an "effective" way can be found to teach it, why does it need to be compulsory. It always seems that , while advocates , always go on about better teaching methods,they dont what you to have free will on the matter either. Are they afraid, people might avoid it, effective teaching or not.

Why shouldn't it be a language choice like any other

English isn't a choice. Probably for that reason.

BoatMad

Eugene Norman wrote: »

English isn't a choice. Probably for that reason.

English is the working language of the country , not to mention the world, to suggest that would be optional is lunacy

Iwasfrozen

How many people on this site who claim to be fluent in Irish has language proficiency beyond the average 12 year old in English? Not many I'd wager.

LeinsterDub

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Why do people hate a language so much?

I dont. I hate how I was taught it. I hate how I was taught foreign languages as a whole. I suck at all of them. A portion of that is my apptitude for languages of course - which is remarkably low. But a part of it is also that in Ireland we seem often to be taught foreign (and in this context I include Irish in this) languages through English. And that has NEVER worked for me.

One of my girlfriends is a linguist by trade now and she has been taking the time to teach me German. I still struggle with it due to how bad I am at languages in general. But she is the best teacher I have ever had and I am making actual progress. And the reason is that she has never used english to teach me German. She refuses to. If I struggle with a word - phrase-or grammar construct -she reverts only to simpler german to lead me to where I need to go.

And all the german people I have met -many thankfully - learned english in this fashion. They never learned English through German.

But if there is any extra hatred of Irish in our society - I can only imagine it comes from it being used to foist an identity on people that those people no longer idenitify with. And we all know on a forum like this - in thread after thread - what ire Labels can bring. And I can imagine that being a continuum along which people at either age can not see each other.

Perhaps I - let alone current generations -do not even know what it means to identify as Irish anymore. I remember not SO many years ago when our familiy decided to do new years eve in a hotel - at the end of the DJ session I did not stand when the DJ decided to close the set with the National Anthem. My Dad asked me after why I did not stand when they played it. I had no answer. I asked why he DID stand when they played it. It turned out he did not have an answer to articulate either. Though he was more emotional about his lack than I was for mine.

BoatMad

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

How many people on this site who claim to be fluent in Irish has language proficiency beyond the average 12 year old in English? Not many I'd wager.

huh, most adults bilingual or not,having gone through secondary school, would have better abilities then a 12 year old in english

BoatMad

But if there is any extra hatred of Irish in our society - I can only imagine it comes from it being used to foist an identity on people that those people no longer idenitify with. And we all know on a forum like this - in thread after thread - what ire Labels can bring. And I can imagine that being a continuum along which people at either age can not see each other.

Perhaps I - let alone current generations -do not even know what it means to identify as Irish anymore. I remember not SO many years ago when our familiy decided to do new years eve in a hotel - at the end of the DJ session I did not stand when the DJ decided to close the set with the National Anthem. My Dad asked me after why I did not stand when they played it. I had no answer. I asked why he DID stand when they played it. It turned out he did not have an answer to articulate either. Though he was more emotional about his lack than I was for mine.

we are circulating around the key to the issue here. The "revival" of irish was largely fostered on an unwilling people, a people that did not in general agree with Devaleras view of irish society but where too cowed to say so.

had it been presented as an option, where those that genuinely wished to learn it, could do so , I expect the language would be in a better place today.

The gaelscol movement is more then language though, part of it is the desire to private school.

Iwasfrozen

BoatMad wrote: »

huh, most adults bilingual or not,having gone through secondary school, would have better abilities then a 12 year old in english

I meant how many posters of this forum who claim to be fluent in Irish would have language proficiency in Irish beyond an average 12 year old's abilities in English. Not many I'd wager.

strelok

BoatMad wrote: »

huh, most adults bilingual or not,having gone through secondary school, would have better abilities then a 12 year old in english

bro, do u even facebook?

Dirty Dingus McGee

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why? I'm not interested in the revival or survival of the Irish language. Why should the state dictate what my kids learn? [If I ever have any in Ireland]

That's the way states work.They have loads of requirements of their citizens whether they like it or not.

Why should the state dictate that children have to get an education in the first place.

Iwasfrozen

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

That's the way states work.They have loads of requirements of their citizens whether they like it or not.

Why should the state dictate that children have to get an education in the first place.

States work through consent of the populace, there's a growing backlash against the teaching mandatory teaching of Irish. To hell with Irish if it can't survive on it's own steam.

R.D. aka MR.D

I teach English as a Foreign Language so have a huge interest in second language acquisition.

It's definitely the way it's taught and one problem is the fact that the teachers usually aren't very good at the language themselves. A lot of my roommates in college went to Marino and St. Pat's. Yes, they learn it but there are ways around it. I'm sure anybody who has been in the girls bathroom of Quinns in Drumcondra have heard the trading of assignments and so on.

It's also not taught in an engaging way.

That's why the languages you learn in secondary school are usually more memorable because they are taught with a view to actually acquiring the language for communicative purposes.

The grammar translation method was definitely the done thing in my primary school. Memorise this, regurgitate it whether you understand it or not.

Maybe they've changed some things now but it was just a disaster when I was at school.

BoatMad

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I meant how many posters of this forum who claim to be fluent in Irish would have language proficiency in Irish beyond an average 12 year old's abilities in English. Not many I'd wager.

Oh, yes I see, I agree

Paramite Pie

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Except we can. Immersion is not place names on signs, immersion is access to media, and we have access to Spanish and French media. Much more so than Irish. What everyday Irish do children pick up outside school? I can't think of any.

Our French teacher used to tell us to watch French channels. None of us ever did. While I get what you're trying to say, we're at the top of the linguistic food chain and most kid's aren't going to learn squat on their own time.
However there were some radio shows that were in Irish in the evenings that did the top40 charts or whatever -- i listened because i liked the music. A lot of people would text in to the radio, surprisingly enough! I was in the country so there wasn't a lot of choice in radio if I wanted current music. I imagine that helped my listening skills.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Learning Spanish and/or French improves a child's general cognition, mental development and later language acquisition. In the latter case much more so as Spanish and French are both Romance languages and can aid in the acquisition of other Romance languages far more than Irish can.

Learning any language improves general cognition. Irish has a very different structure to many European languages -- if you only learn to pick up similarish languages then you might struggle when learning a vastly different one. I was one of the better students in my French class by the way -- so I imagine I wasn't held back by doing Irish.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

A child thought Irish really well from a young age will be at a disadvantage learning French than a child thought Spanish really well from a young age.

There is no argument for Irish immersion learning over immersion learning in a useful language.

When learning Korean I seemed to pick up different concepts quicker than my other English speaking peers. That's anecdotal of course, too narrow a sample also. Korean and Japanese follow an somewhat reverse structure of Irish/Welsh with the verbs always being last instead of first, while Arabic follows the general Verb-Subject-Object structure like Irish does.

Of course I only discovered this by going further afield. Most Irish don't try learning these languages (compared to french/german) but with every language I learn I always find myself subconsciously comparing it to Irish and not just English. How well you learn a language is always affected by prior knowledge. The languages I listed are also considered some of the most difficult of English (SVO) speakers to learn.

I'm fine with making Irish optional btw but there's plenty of parents willing to have their kids learn Irish too. You don't have to understand that - a lot don't. Most people simply want reform.

Sh1tbag OToole

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

While the US multinationals who fuel the economy have to import staff. This attitude is exactly why so many people have had to emigrate.

They're only here for the tax dodge, or so we're told any time someone mentions closing the various loopholes. Don't fool yerself into thinking they're here because we're such great workers anyway.

If you subscribe to the 'prepare kids for the corporate world' theory, maybe sending passive-agressive emails and pestering people for 'updates' should be a leaving cert subject

BMMachine

i think its useless and dont care for it. i see the point in it, but i dont like how forced and boring it is. It really pissed me off that there was no option not to do it

gormdubhgorm

I don't hate irish I respect it as part of our culture. But I can see why some people hate it:

1) Lack of proper education and effort while at school

2) Identifies more with Britain/America then Ireland and sees Irish as antiquated.

3) Some zealots who love Irish sneer at people who attempt to speak Irish that are not as good as them and they nearly enjoy the sneering as much as speaking Irish!

Sh1tbag OToole

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

2) Identifies more with Britain/America then Ireland and sees Irish as antiquated.

There are definitely loads of these around, wonder why though. Inferiority complex?

Iwasfrozen

Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »

There are definitely loads of these around, wonder why though. Inferiority complex?

Why must it be a symptom of inferiority for Anglophones to associate themselves with the wider Anglophone world?

As a group we consist of some of the most powerful, socially advanced and influential nations in the world. Our impact on humanity and the wider human community has been immense. To be proud of this is to suffer an inferiority complex?

Hispanophone and Francophone nations seem to be much more willing to celebrate their shared culture.

BoatMad

Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »

There are definitely loads of these around, wonder why though. Inferiority complex?

its long been a case that a small island like Ireland, once part of the Union, would tend to look to the UK and or the US as a role model. It in no way make one inferior , its a function of geography and history

I would suggest in my opinion that very few people " hate" irish, most simply think its irrelevant and that forms their opinion

Hate is too strong a word, I see no campaigns here to deny people access to the language that want to access it. I do see campaigns to allow those that feel its irrelevant to avoid any compulsory aspect of its teaching and I think its a fair point

The language advocates then try to paint such people as " haters"

Edit : people often say they hate the way it was taught etc , thats different to accusing them of " hating " the language

esforum

heroics wrote: »

Hated learning it in school. Could not see the point. The way way it was thought was also a joke. Not relevant at all. I got a lot better results in German than Irish even though only learned it for 5 years.

I also resented that it was compulsory as I am not language orientated but would have preferred to do an additional science subject for the leaving cert instead.

I could understand maths and English being compulsory as they may have some use in the future but unless you want to teach Irish what's the point.

This. Never actually needed Irish and pretty ****ty at languages in general but yet time after time Irish bit me in the ass.

Even now its causing me grief because its considered an important aspect of getting promoted in the public sector

esforum

esforum wrote: »

This. Never actually needed Irish and pretty ****ty at languages in general but yet time after time Irish bit me in the ass.

Even now its causing me grief because its considered an important aspect of getting promoted in the public sector

Not really, in my experience. There's separate streams and competitions if you want to do it that way but it wouldn't block anyone going through normal competitions. Essentially a bonus to have it, just like the leaving cert.

esforum

Deleted User wrote: »

Not really, in my experience. There's separate streams and competitions if you want to do it that way but it wouldn't block anyone going through normal competitions. Essentially a bonus to have it, just like the leaving cert.

You are required to have passed the civil service Irish competency exam to be promoted.

Probable there is certain waivers for the civil service in regards a high enough mark in the leaving for example, for Gardai if you get over 50% in your oral exam in Templemore you are considered 'competent' enough for promotion without taking the competency exam but for the thick fools like me, its yet another exam in Irish for no real reason. Im 41 ffs and have never used it!!!

BoatMad

its yet another exam in Irish for no real reason. Im 41 ffs!

err , it has a reason, its just you disagree with it.

age is no barrier to exams by the way

starry_eyed

The teacher we had was a very nice woman but realistically listening to her meandering aimless woes on her adolescence slightly put me off the actuality of learning. The therapy she received from out vacant faces would have otherwise cost her thousands. Still did quite well though and never hated Irish once I grew up and realised my heritage.

esforum

BoatMad wrote: »

err , it has a reason, its just you disagree with it.

age is no barrier to exams by the way

I said no real reason, being Irish is not a reason to force the language on me. What, for you, is the genuine and reasonable need to make me sit another exam in the Irish language? Surely to god my abilities to perform my actual job mixed with my existing skills and attributes should decide if I can apply for promotion, not a poxy language I have no desire or need to speak.

My age reflected how long I have survived without Irish. I have used French, Spanish and even the very basic German I know more than Irish.

BoatMad

esforum wrote: »

I said no real reason, being Irish is not a reason to force the language on me. What, for you, is the genuine and reasonable need to make me sit another exam in the Irish language? Surely to god my abilities to perform my actual job mixed with my existing skills and attributes should decide if I can apply for promotion, not a poxy language I have no desire or need to speak.

My age reflected how long I have survived without Irish. I have used French, Spanish and even the very basic German I know more than Irish.

I know, I know, but the fact is the job has that requirement and you are required to demonstrate that competency,

Should it have it, thats a debate , there are many issues involved in deciding promotion , not all are based on "existing skills and attributes", many people do whole postgraduate degrees for example just to bolster their promotion abilities even though on the face of it , its not required

esforum

esforum wrote: »

You are required to have passed the civil service Irish competency exam to be promoted.

Probable there is certain waivers for the civil service in regards a high enough mark in the leaving for example, for Gardai if you get over 50% in your oral exam in Templemore you are considered 'competent' enough for promotion without taking the competency exam but for the thick fools like me, its yet another exam in Irish for no real reason. Im 41 ffs and have never used it!!!

Never came up for me yet but jaysus now you have me worried, where's me folens