LOI Talk, Rumours, Gossip, Transfers etc 2018

joeysoap · 01-09-2017 10:44am

doncarlos wrote: »

We're also missing both Benson and O'Donnell again. We looked a little lost in midfield against Crumlin so could be worse against Pats. I have a feeling Cork will wrap it up tonight. It'll be exciting for the Rovers fans anyway getting to see another title victory in Tallaght :pac:

ODonnell is still a clas act when he plays, unfortunately he misses as many matches as he plays now due to injury. By the time Benson recovered from that knock the league was effectively over. Might start Stewart tonight in place of Benson, another player who would have no problem getting onto most teams starting lineups.

doncarlos · 01-09-2017 10:55am

joeysoap wrote: »

ODonnell is still a clas act when he plays, unfortunately he misses as many matches as he plays now due to injury. By the time Benson recovered from that knock the league was effectively over. Might start Stewart tonight in place of Benson, another player who would have no problem getting onto most teams starting lineups.

I have seen nothing in Stewart to suggest he is good enough for the club. Kenny has released much better players than him over past few seasons

Lyle Lanley · 01-09-2017 8:46pm

They're not going to **** it up, are they?!

01-09-2017 8:50pm

Why JC didn't sign a striker baffles me, Sheppard is more effective on the wing....Has Dooley peed in Caufields cornflakes or something

farna_boy · 01-09-2017 9:41pm

Eden Hot Warehouse wrote: »

Why JC didn't sign a striker baffles me, Sheppard is more effective on the wing....Has Dooley peed in Caufields cornflakes or something

On the flip side, Keohane and Buckley are untouchable and apparently can do no wrong. Still not sure how Sadlier lasted 90 minutes either. As for bringing on Campion, you know he is just trolling everyone at that stage.

kksaints · 01-09-2017 9:46pm

6-0

:(:(

01-09-2017 9:49pm

farna_boy wrote: »

On the flip side, Keohane and Buckley are untouchable and apparently can do no wrong. Still not sure how Sadlier lasted 90 minutes either. As for bringing on Campion, you know he is just trolling everyone at that stage.

and the sad thing is he'll get another contract....(Caulfield that is )

Corholio · 01-09-2017 9:49pm

Fair play to Rovers, took the game to us when it should have been other way around. Yet again we started playing when the team was more balanced. Beattie taken off was a terrible decision by JC, and somehow Buckley completes another 90 minutes.

overshoot · 01-09-2017 9:56pm

I was listening to the limerick lads radio stream... no idea how we wont that. Sounded like our only 2 shots after being under the cosh all match.
if we go down this year discipline at this part of the year especially will have cost us. We just dont have the squad to absorb the suspensions. Still... i was starting to get worried and that bit of luck tonight gives us a real chance. If we can beat sligo & drogs at home... 36pts enough (with a terrible goal difference)?

ShamoBuc · 01-09-2017 10:04pm

City totally deserved to lose that game. Their set up seemed to invite rovers on. Caulfield really is making a few weird decisions. Rovers played very well and really have hit great form at the right time of year. Them and Dundalk will have a good cup final, hopefully they meet in the semi of the fai as well.

ArnoldJRimmer · 01-09-2017 10:12pm

Relief that Harps are back to winning ways tonight, and with ten men too. With the Pats result, things remain seriously tight at the bottom

7. Limerick 27 8 7 12 32:43 31

8. St. Patricks 27 7 9 11 33:43 30

9. Finn Harps 27 9 3 15 30:50 30

10. Sligo Rovers 27 5 13 9 25:39 28

11. Galway 27 5 11 11 31:38 26

12. Drogheda 26 4 6 16 17:51 18

(Apologies for the bad formatting of the table)

joeysoap · 01-09-2017 11:04pm

kksaints wrote: »

6-0 :(:(

Scrappy enough first half. I was at the match and didn't see what what happened to Barry Murphy (and neither did anybody around me, we were all following the ball which looked like going in until cleared off the line, by which time Murphy looked in real trouble)

McKell gave Dundalk a penalty in extratime of first half, dubious is how I'd describe it. Have to see the replays on Monday. Then he sent off Birmingham for ????????. None of us knew. Free header for McMillan still in injury time and it was all over.

Dundalk carrying a lot of injuries tonight so it was great to see the replacements gelling so well. But, IMO the sending off was the turning point, saying that Dundalk were well on top at all stages, and should have been ahead before the penalty.

johnnyryan89 · 01-09-2017 11:40pm

overshoot wrote: »

I was listening to the limerick lads radio stream... no idea how we wont that. Sounded like our only 2 shots after being under the cosh all match.
if we go down this year discipline at this part of the year especially will have cost us. We just dont have the squad to absorb the suspensions. Still... i was starting to get worried and that bit of luck tonight gives us a real chance. If we can beat sligo & drogs at home... 36pts enough (with a terrible goal difference)?

Limerick wasted a number of chances in the first half that the game could have been over after 45mins and missed that penalty with the last kick of the game. Harps were lucky to be going into the second half with a one nil lead imo and McDonald changed to a 3-5-2 in the second half which killed the game altogether for us.

Ollie Horgan could be in trouble after his half time handbags tonight in the tunnel at half time.

dfx- · 01-09-2017 11:53pm

A very sweet win, no moral victory this time. Cork were just no threat in open play.

Hard to believe that's Aaron Bolger's second start in the league. He was excellent as well as McAllister and Clarke and Finn plus Shaw 1st half.

overshoot · 02-09-2017 12:03am

johnnyryan89 wrote: »

Limerick wasted a number of chances in the first half that the game could have been over after 45mins and missed that penalty with the last kick of the game. Harps were lucky to be going into the second half with a one nil lead imo and McDonald changed to a 3-5-2 in the second half which killed the game altogether for us.

Ollie Horgan could be in trouble after his half time handbags tonight in the tunnel at half time.

thats how it sounded on the radio alright.
what exactly did horgan do? The lads doing the stream had no idea and havnt seen anything on the forum

johnnyryan89 · 02-09-2017 12:16am

overshoot wrote: »

thats how it sounded on the radio alright.
what exactly did horgan do? The lads doing the stream had no idea and havnt seen anything on the forum

As the second half was about to start with all the players out on the pitch there was handbags in the tunnel between Horgan and someone else, not sure who it was with but he wasn't allowed out for the second half.

I think even at the end of the first half after his weekly half time rant at the officials there was something that supposedly happened as he was going down the tunnel, heard two different stories with that one but I'd say he'll be looking at a ban for a couple of games anyway.

overshoot · 02-09-2017 12:24am

In fairness he had vastly improved (after being brought into the boardroom a few times) but our discipline, has regressed a bit again lately. Im sure it will come out soon enough!

Pighead · 02-09-2017 12:28am

Easy peasy. We were relentless this evening. Kept fmgoing at full throttle even though the game was over at half time. Michael Duffy man of the match. Excellent performance from him. As joeysoap said the penalty looked a bit harsh but would need to see a replay. Good to see Connolly get his goal as well. Another who had a very good game.

Graham Kelly was excellent for Pats in fairness to him. Pretty much the only one of their players who kept fighting until the end. Showed some great touches and was unluckly not to get a goal with the last kick of the game.

PhilipsR · 02-09-2017 9:41am

Dundalk will be kicking themselves they're not even 4-6 points closer. Cork would be getting seriously worried then. Gap's just too big.

MD1990 · 02-09-2017 10:18am

I don't think Cork will be favourites for the title next season.

Dundalk look favourites even if McEleney went he would not be as big as blow as it would be made out to be. Just think Gartland should be dropped.

Rovers should be contenders as well.

joeysoap · 02-09-2017 11:33am

Garland had a terrific match last night. Vemmelund and Massey missing last night but bar one second half 'turn off' the defence was excellent and Gartlan had a few 'little 'flick' touches when he took the Pats player completely out of it.
The handball by Gartlan probably was as a result of a bounce of the ball, everybody saw it, including McKell. ( it was in the 91st minute)

Clifford had a great match, but Michael Duffy was the star.

Pighead · 02-09-2017 12:17pm

joeysoap wrote: »

Garland had a terrific match last night. Vemmelund and Massey missing last night but bar one second half 'turn off' the defence was excellent and Gartlan had a few 'little 'flick' touches when he took the Pats player completely out of it.
The handball by Gartlan probably was as a result of a bounce of the ball, everybody saw it, including McKell. ( it was in the 91st minute)

Clifford had a great match, but Michael Duffy was the star.

Couldn't agree more about your assessment of Gartland last night. First half in particular he was immense! He seemed to be everywhere. I know with a 6-0 drubbing you'd probably think he had little to be doing last night but Pats countered well at times in the opening period last night only to be stopped by the man mountain that is Gartland. He hasn't had the best of season's but he was faultless last night. Great to see.

Such an exciting team we have now. Connolly and Duffy terrorising defences with their pace. Benson causing havoc with his clever runs from deep. McEleney's magic. McMillan scoring pretty much every time he takes to teh field. Gannon back to his marauding best. Shields (although still guilty of giving the ball away with overhit Hollywood passes) solid in midfield and driving us forward. Sean Hoare and Vemmelund two of the most skilful defenders in the league. Fcuk even Gary Rogers is looking pretty solid these days. Now if only Conor Clifford could step up and take these chances he's been given lately. He's nice and tidy on the ball but just doesn't do enough going forward for me. Anyway, future looking very bright for us. Lets finish this 'poor' season with a couple of trophies and then prepare for an all out assault to become league champions once more.

SRFC90 · 02-09-2017 3:17pm

dfx- · 02-09-2017 6:03pm

Why wasn't Greg Bolger playing last night?

Corholio · 02-09-2017 7:03pm

It was a mistake not to immediately go after a replacement for Seanie, too much faith in Shep up front. He's been the best winger in the league this season, makes no sense to take him out from there. A fair bit early to be writing anyone off next season already to be fair. Dundalk lost 2 of their best players and it took a whole pre-season + half a season to get back into it for them, it's only been a couple of weeks since Seanie left. A striker is obviously no.1 priority during the close season but we need to get this one closed out first. With a decent striker up front we'll be much improved again, the complete lack of striking options left behind just hasn't been good enough. Centre backs will need replacing as well.

joeysoap · 02-09-2017 7:23pm

After watching that rubbish I'm glad Dundalk have SK signed up until 2020

joeysoap · 02-09-2017 8:30pm

SRFC90 wrote: »

Missed alberts (both of them)

02-09-2017 10:50pm

dfx- wrote: »

Why wasn't Greg Bolger playing last night?

some odd reason caulfied doesn't fancy him,,,,i know McCormack does a similar role but he should be in the team ahead of Buckley

Zebra3 · 02-09-2017 10:52pm

SRFC90 wrote: »

LOL at whoever made the banner.

It's still 17:0. :pac:

Paz-CCFC · 03-09-2017 12:50am

SRFC90 wrote: »

Tallaght banner

The irony of all the times Shamrock Rovers have gone into liquidation/gone bust/defunct etc. (more so than any other football side in Ireland) was obviously lost on the Rovers fans.

Darkglasses · 03-09-2017 12:55am

Paz-CCFC wrote: »

The irony of all the times Shamrock Rovers have gone into liquidation/gone bust/defunct etc. (more so than any other football side in Ireland) was obviously lost on the Rovers fans.

[IMG][/img]

That's amazing. Wexford Youths/Wexford FC were given such severe rules to differentiate the two different clubs following the winding-up order. I have no ill will towards Rovers, but it's a bit sickening to be frequently given more draconian rule enforcement to most other clubs.

Paz-CCFC · 03-09-2017 1:33am

Darkglasses wrote: »

That's amazing. Wexford Youths/Wexford FC were given such severe rules to differentiate the two different clubs following the winding-up order. I have no ill will towards Rovers, but it's a bit sickening to be frequently given more draconian rule enforcement to most other clubs.

Back in the day (pre-00s), you could basically do what you wanted to. League rules and insolvency laws were so lax. Your club could be owned by company A on a Monday. That company could have been up to their eyeballs in debt. On the Tuesday, you could have moved all assets - stadium, contracts, IP rights etc. - to a newly formed Company B. On the Wednesday, Company A would have went into liquidation, conveniently after everything of value was removed to Company B, from where they would be untouchable. The club would then be safe. Until a few years later, the exact same thing would happen and Company C would be formed and it'd all repeat itself. Hence all those times Shamrock Rovers went bust and reformed. This could even happen mid-season - the fixture list would just continue without skipping a beat. And that list above is just companies that named themselves SRFC or some derivative of that. There were probably plenty more holding companies calling themselves something else that went bust.

Nowadays, league rules are much more stringent and they don't allow things to happen as simply as this. If an old company goes bust, they require much more work from a new company to prove that they're a continuation of the same club. Likewise, company law doesn't just allow you to move all your assets to a new company, to avoid paying back debt (for the sake of creditors).

To be fair, it's not only Shamrock Rovers that did it, although they are probably the club that have gone into liquidation the most times. I'd say that every club that were established before the 90s have done it at least once. It was just so easy to lift all the things that mattered from a company and transfer it to a new one, leaving the old one with all the debt go to the wall (regardless of whether or not it left creditors high and dry), knowing that everything was safe in the new one. Shels did it a few times, as did Waterford, Dundalk, Limerick, Drogheda United etc. They act whiter than white when using it as a stick to beat your club with, but the reality is they went through the same thing. Only laws were laxer then and the internet wasn't around, so you didn't have obtuse opposition fans bringing it up. Often, for that reason, these fans are clueless that their clubs have done the same thing.

Darkglasses · 03-09-2017 1:40am

Paz-CCFC wrote: »

Back in the day (pre-00s), you could basically do what you wanted to. League rules and insolvency laws were so lax. Your club could be owned by company A on a Monday. That company could have been up to their eyeballs in debt. On the Tuesday, you could have moved all assets - stadium, contracts, IP rights etc. - to a newly formed Company B. On the Wednesday, Company A would have went into liquidation, conveniently after everything of value was removed to Company B, from where they would be untouchable. The club would then be safe. Until a few years later, the exact same thing would happen and Company C would be formed and it'd all repeat itself. Hence all those times Shamrock Rovers went bust and reformed. This could even happen mid-season - the fixture list would just continue without skipping a beat. And that list above is just companies that named themselves SRFC or some derivative of that. There were probably plenty more holding companies calling themselves something else that went bust.

Nowadays, league rules are much more stringent and they don't allow things to happen as simply as this. If an old company goes bust, they require much more work from a new company to prove that they're a continuation of the same club. Likewise, company law doesn't just allow you to move all your assets to a new company, to avoid paying back debt (for the sake of creditors).

To be fair, it's not only Shamrock Rovers that did it, although they are probably the club that have gone into liquidation the most times. I'd say that every club that were established before the 90s have done it at least once. It was just so easy to lift all the things that mattered from a company and transfer it to a new one, leaving the old one with all the debt go to the wall (regardless of whether or not it left creditors high and dry), knowing that everything was safe in the new one. Shels did it a few times, as did Waterford, Dundalk, Limerick, Drogheda United etc. They act whiter than white when using it as a stick to beat your club with, but the reality is they went through the same thing. Only laws were laxer then and the internet wasn't around, so you didn't have obtuse opposition fans bringing it up. Often, for that reason, these fans are clueless that their clubs have done the same thing.

Great post, thanks for that explanation. I wasn't involved at all in clubs at all prior to when Wexford Youths were founded, but I did have the feeling that those activities were easier before we were around.

joeysoap · 03-09-2017 12:06pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

LOL at whoever made the banner.

It's still 17:0. :pac:

Great banner.

If you add all the Cork champions together (including this one) you get 12.
Same as Dundalk and one less than Shels.

Ps how cone Rovers are credited with 17 leagues if the club kept changing owners? Is it because name remained the same?

johnnyryan89 · 03-09-2017 8:36pm

Stephen Bradley sent off during the Shamrock Rovers u15 game today against St Kevins ðŸ˜‚

Oat23 · 03-09-2017 8:51pm

johnnyryan89 wrote: »

Stephen Bradley sent off during the Shamrock Rovers u15 game today against St Kevins &#55357;&#56834;

Can't wait for him to tell us all about it in the paper this week.

Zebra3 · 03-09-2017 11:46pm

Paz-CCFC wrote: »

Back in the day (pre-00s), you could basically do what you wanted to. League rules and insolvency laws were so lax. Your club could be owned by company A on a Monday. That company could have been up to their eyeballs in debt. On the Tuesday, you could have moved all assets - stadium, contracts, IP rights etc. - to a newly formed Company B. On the Wednesday, Company A would have went into liquidation, conveniently after everything of value was removed to Company B, from where they would be untouchable. The club would then be safe. Until a few years later, the exact same thing would happen and Company C would be formed and it'd all repeat itself. Hence all those times Shamrock Rovers went bust and reformed. This could even happen mid-season - the fixture list would just continue without skipping a beat. And that list above is just companies that named themselves SRFC or some derivative of that. There were probably plenty more holding companies calling themselves something else that went bust.

Nowadays, league rules are much more stringent and they don't allow things to happen as simply as this. If an old company goes bust, they require much more work from a new company to prove that they're a continuation of the same club. Likewise, company law doesn't just allow you to move all your assets to a new company, to avoid paying back debt (for the sake of creditors).

To be fair, it's not only Shamrock Rovers that did it, although they are probably the club that have gone into liquidation the most times. I'd say that every club that were established before the 90s have done it at least once. It was just so easy to lift all the things that mattered from a company and transfer it to a new one, leaving the old one with all the debt go to the wall (regardless of whether or not it left creditors high and dry), knowing that everything was safe in the new one. Shels did it a few times, as did Waterford, Dundalk, Limerick, Drogheda United etc. They act whiter than white when using it as a stick to beat your club with, but the reality is they went through the same thing. Only laws were laxer then and the internet wasn't around, so you didn't have obtuse opposition fans bringing it up. Often, for that reason, these fans are clueless that their clubs have done the same thing.

The difference is that before the FAI took over the league (end 2006), the club didn't cease to exist, just the holding company.

Since then, and rightly so, the rules have tightened up. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009–10_Setanta_Sports_Cup New clubs since then like Cork, Derry, Wexford, Limerick and Waterford are new entities. Even during the 80s new clubs were set up in Waterford and Limerick to distance themselves from the shambolic old entities. In the 90s, both Derry and Cork pulled the same stroke during the season. It was then that Cork City FC lost control of Bishopstown Stadium.

Like it or lump, that's the way it is/was. Nobody is acting whiter than white, just pointing out the way it is.

We'll all congratulate Cork City III when they get off the mark!!!

D14Rugby · 04-09-2017 11:26pm

Paz-CCFC wrote: »

The irony of all the times Shamrock Rovers have gone into liquidation/gone bust/defunct etc. (more so than any other football side in Ireland) was obviously lost on the Rovers fans.

do you happen to have a link to that, im just curious to see dates of each of those being founded and dissolved

Paz-CCFC · 05-09-2017 12:51am

joeysoap wrote: »

Ps how cone Rovers are credited with 17 leagues if the club kept changing owners? Is it because name remained the same?

Legally speaking, when you take away all the tangible assets like land, contracts etc., the only thing left in a company is intellectual property such as its reputation/goodwill. That's essentially what the "club" is that people follow. Taking away the contracts such as players or business agreements might not turn away the hardcore (although, losing good players will cause some support to drop off) because they stay for something much more intangible than that. The basic goodwill is based on that identity, because even if things are going bad commercially wise, the hardcore will still turn up and it will be worth something to a club. The only people that could take any sort of legal action based on this are those whose IP is breached/reputation is ripped off (ie, the company). If someone were to create a new Shamrock Rovers now and tricked people into believing it was the same one that plays in Tallaght, the Tallaght Rovers might able to sustain a case, because they'd be at a loss. But if Shamrock A Limited and Shamrock B Limited both existed at the same time, were owned by the same people, moved all the assets from A to B and continued to market B as the same Shamrock, who would sue? The only ones that would have an action would be Shamrock A, but they'd be owned by the same ones as Shamrock B and they're not going to sue themselves. So, if you have no one taking issue with it, people will just forget about it and over time just accept that Shamrock B and then Shamrock C and D etc. were the same as A.

Zebra3 wrote: »

The difference is that before the FAI took over the league (end 2006), the club didn't cease to exist, just the holding company.

Since then, and rightly so, the rules have tightened up. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009–10_Setanta_Sports_Cup New clubs since then like Cork, Derry, Wexford, Limerick and Waterford are new entities. Even during the 80s new clubs were set up in Waterford and Limerick to distance themselves from the shambolic old entities. In the 90s, both Derry and Cork pulled the same stroke during the season. It was then that Cork City FC lost control of Bishopstown Stadium.

Like it or lump, that's the way it is/was. Nobody is acting whiter than white, just pointing out the way it is.

We'll all congratulate Cork City III when they get off the mark!!!

Could you please explain why prior to 2006, clubs and companies were separate, but post-2006 they were necessarily the same and a company becoming insolvent meant the end of the club? Could you also point to such a rule which you claim exists? Something more concrete than a random Wikipedia article (not that I can see how this in anyway proves your point anyway).

Could you finally explain why the national (referring to City's previous Cup successes in 89 and 98) and European (referring to the European records from the 80s, 90s and 00s) football governing bodies maintain that the current club are the same as the Cork City that was founded in 1984?

D14Rugby wrote: »

do you happen to have a link to that, im just curious to see dates of each of those being founded and dissolved

You can't link directly to search results for some reason, but this stuff is all publicly available on the CRO site if you want to search it on there.

dfx- · 05-09-2017 12:57am

Eden Hot Warehouse wrote: »

some odd reason caulfied doesn't fancy him,,,,i know McCormack does a similar role but he should be in the team ahead of Buckley

it was an odd decision that only occurred to me when I saw Bolger approach the bench midway first half. Obvious sub would've been to bring him on at halftime when taking McCormack off. Basically playing the whole second half with no midfield.

Cork fans were giving their left back some stick for his distribution...

05-09-2017 10:14am

dfx- wrote: »

it was an odd decision that only occurred to me when I saw Bolger approach the bench midway first half. Obvious sub would've been to bring him on at halftime when taking McCormack off. Basically playing the whole second half with no midfield.

Cork fans were giving their left back some stick for his distribution...

Griffin is impressive from crossing or free kicks, he's young and but yeah he kinda is a bit headless at times, I'm not sure is full back his natural position.... Buckley must be related or have something on the manager as there is no way I would have him on and Bolger on the bench....I can see Bolger leaving in the off season as he looks annoyed when he gets taken off, and Dooley is supposed to be off as well (unhappy and I believe he was the one dropped to facilitate Sadlier which was a horrendous decision) Beattie is another one as well rumoured to be unhappy being on the bench lately I've seen on other forums (not sure how accurate that it but he's one id sign up immediately in the offseason )...

I would not give JC more than 1 year extension as I see CCFC going downhill (realistically i wouldn't keep him on but they're not going to let go the manager who won the league) unless they find some good players (2 centre backs and at least 2 forwards) and Rovers and Dundalk will be stronger next year

Zebra3 · 05-09-2017 11:22am

Paz-CCFC wrote: »

Could you please explain why prior to 2006, clubs and companies were separate, but post-2006 they were necessarily the same and a company becoming insolvent meant the end of the club? Could you also point to such a rule which you claim exists? Something more concrete than a random Wikipedia article (not that I can see how this in anyway proves your point anyway).

Could you finally explain why the national (referring to City's previous Cup successes in 89 and 98) and European (referring to the European records from the 80s, 90s and 00s) football governing bodies maintain that the current club are the same as the Cork City that was founded in 1984?

The reason why things changed at the end of 2006 was that the FAI took over the league and a whole new raft of licensing legislation covering the LoI came into effect. You can no longer just let the holding company go under and continue the football club as normal. That's why I linked to the Setanta Cup piece. The new Derry City couldn't continue to compete in the competition because it was a new club. Pretty straight forward. Just like neither Derry nor Cork were demoted by the FAI at the end of 2009. The clubs ceased to exist and new entities applied successfully and joined the First Division for 2010.

As for what's written on those websites, it's probably simply a case of whoever maintains them doesn't know or care about the situation. They're hardly legally binding documents.

overshoot · 05-09-2017 2:25pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

The new Derry City couldn't continue to compete in the competition because it was a new club. Pretty straight forward. Just like neither Derry nor Cork were demoted by the FAI at the end of 2009

Derry was thrown out of the league (not just premier) for the double contracts/cheating before they folded... Although you can be sure that measure was only taken as they were going under anyway so the FAI looked to be taking a hardline.
Enforcement of the history is another thing, im sure the FAI are happy to let the new entities appear older than they are/claim past trophies for the sake of the publicity. eg Derry's website has the old badge with 1928 at the bottom, the league site has the new clubs badge with no year. Cork has 1984 on their badge.

joeysoap · 05-09-2017 2:58pm

overshoot wrote: »

........
Enforcement of the history is another thing, im sure the FAI are happy to let the new entities appear older than they are/claim past trophies for the sake of the publicity. eg Derry's website has the old badge with 1928 at the bottom, the league site has the new clubs badge with no year. Cork has 1984 on their badge.

this is interesting (in a weird sort of way)

Dundalk nearly went to the wall in 2012. I know the current owners did not get an easy time from the FAI before allowing them to take over the club.

overshoot · 05-09-2017 3:29pm

In fairness its common, just look at the history/honours page of any club... Derry, Cork, Galway, Limerick, Waterford (Fran Gavin made it clear this was a new club at the start of the season didnt he?) all run back decades.... although Limerick offer a detailed written history and mention the new club in 07 in fairness to them.
Also had a quick glance at Wexford and didnt see reference to Youths anywhere... although their homepage is still "wexford youths" in the metadata title / what shows you on google.

civis_liberalis · 05-09-2017 5:32pm

overshoot wrote: »

im sure the FAI are happy to let the new entities appear older than they are/claim past trophies for the sake of the publicity. eg Derry's website has the old badge with 1928 at the bottom, the league site has the new clubs badge with no year. Cork has 1984 on their badge.

Some in the FAI went to great lengths to try to kill the Galway United name. It was only when an ultimatum from GUST that Galway FC be renamed as Galway United, threatening to pull support, did the name change back.

Even still, they refuse to recognise it as a continuation of the same club. The likes of Cork and Derry are obviously the same club to their fans, as are Galway United, but the FAI love petty shít like this.

D14Rugby · 05-09-2017 6:44pm

Paz-CCFC wrote: »

Could you finally explain why the national (referring to City's previous Cup successes in 89 and 98) and European (referring to the European records from the 80s, 90s and 00s) football governing bodies maintain that the current club are the same as the Cork City that was founded in 1984?

You can't link directly to search results for some reason, but this stuff is all publicly available on the CRO site if you want to search it on there.

Thanks for that the dates of some of those actually explain a lot about what they are. Theres actually "only" about 3 or 4 that seem to actually be the club, the remainder seem to be attempts to separate out parts of the club so they arent relient on each other.

As for that i think i may be able to answer your question. Just look at what happened to rangers and its almost the exact same, according to the associations and the club theyre the same club but legally its a grey spot so opposition fans take the opposite opinion.

Paz-CCFC · 05-09-2017 11:59pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

The reason why things changed at the end of 2006 was that the FAI took over the league and a whole new raft of licensing legislation covering the LoI came into effect. You can no longer just let the holding company go under and continue the football club as normal. That's why I linked to the Setanta Cup piece. The new Derry City couldn't continue to compete in the competition because it was a new club. Pretty straight forward. Just like neither Derry nor Cork were demoted by the FAI at the end of 2009. The clubs ceased to exist and new entities applied successfully and joined the First Division for 2010.

Can you please link to these rules which state that the essence of a club is the holding company and if the company becomes insolvent, the club necessarily goes with it?

As for what's written on those websites, it's probably simply a case of whoever maintains them doesn't know or care about the situation. They're hardly legally binding documents.

Well, these are the respective national and European regulatory bodies. UEFA are particularly backed by a lot of money, a billion euro organisation. Don't you think these kinds of bodies are very very particular about what they put up on their site and put a lot of work into attention to detail?

You can dismiss they're worth, but something on the official website of these regulatory bodies backs up the point a lot more than the "evidence" that you used.

Also, when Derry qualified for the Europa League in 2014, their coefficients from their 2009 campaign were used, which meant they were seeded in the first round. Why was this, if they were, as you claim, two separate clubs?

D14Rugby wrote: »

Thanks for that the dates of some of those actually explain a lot about what they are. Theres actually "only" about 3 or 4 that seem to actually be the club, the remainder seem to be attempts to separate out parts of the club so they arent relient on each other.

As for that i think i may be able to answer your question. Just look at what happened to rangers and its almost the exact same, according to the associations and the club theyre the same club but legally its a grey spot so opposition fans take the opposite opinion.

There were another few Rovers companies that used different names and had either had registered business names or were "trading as" Shamrock Rovers FC.

It's not really a grey spot, legally. IP and intangible goodwill, which is what a club's identity is at a basic level, is nothing new to law. The law generally accepts sport's autonomy and realises that it's different from most businesses. This was accepted by the High Court in the Shamrock Rovers and Cork City examinership and liquidation cases in 2005, 2008 and 2009. From a sporting point of view, they're happy to accept that a club isn't confined to the corporate structure. They don't necessarily confine general business identities to their holdings companies, so it would make no sense that they would do so in a sporting context, given it's something they're more reluctant to interfere with in general.

D14Rugby · 06-09-2017 1:29am

Paz-CCFC wrote: »

There were another few Rovers companies that used different names and had either had registered business names or were "trading as" Shamrock Rovers FC.

It's not really a grey spot, legally. IP and intangible goodwill, which is what a club's identity is at a basic level, is nothing new to law. The law generally accepts sport's autonomy and realises that it's different from most businesses. This was accepted by the High Court in the Shamrock Rovers and Cork City examinership and liquidation cases in 2005, 2008 and 2009. From a sporting point of view, they're happy to accept that a club isn't confined to the corporate structure. They don't necessarily confine general business identities to their holdings companies, so it would make no sense that they would do so in a sporting context, given it's something they're more reluctant to interfere with in general.

Yeah they probably did but good luck finding records for them but at least since the 70s those companies have dates that line up pretty consecutively.
Actually the rovers one is different as the company were never actually liquidated, an examiner was appointed but found a buyer so the holding company that runs the club today is the same one that started up in 1996.
Thats what makes it a grey spot. Its accepted theyre the same club but from a legal point it doesnt say either way so its completely open to interpretation and its all based on attachment so for fans of the club theyre the same club, for those who arent it could go either way.

Darkglasses · 06-09-2017 8:05pm

overshoot wrote: »

In fairness its common, just look at the history/honours page of any club... Derry, Cork, Galway, Limerick, Waterford (Fran Gavin made it clear this was a new club at the start of the season didnt he?) all run back decades.... although Limerick offer a detailed written history and mention the new club in 07 in fairness to them.
Also had a quick glance at Wexford and didnt see reference to Youths anywhere... although their homepage is still "wexford youths" in the metadata title / what shows you on google.

We were strictly instructed to remove all references to "Youths" on our website and social media before the licence was awarded, excluding Wexford Youths Women.

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