Landlord witholding deposit reason

RobAMerc

folks,

I recently moved out of a fairly old property that we were in for 3 years.
On returning the keys the agent for the landlord complained that the house wasnt returned clean enough.
This was the list of issues.

It needed hovering ( despite we having had the carpets washed )
The windows needed cleaning
There were cobwebs
During the storms the wind had blown some of the bins contents from the green bin into the driveway. ( I cleaned this up )

Other than that we had spent 5 hrs scrubbing the place and were confident it was in a good shape, the landlord also has had painters in since so it cant have been so bad.

The agent wants to get in professional cleaners and wants us to pay for it ?

In 3 years we never missed a payment, repainted the bathroom numerous times, and kept in well with the neighbours ( the LL livrs across the road ), we even didnt cause a fracas when he upped the rent from 1450 to 1900 !

Is there some rules to say we have to leave it back immaculate ?

I am tempted to tell him to F off and that I am going to report him to the PRTB for witholding the deposit, I hav photos which show the place is far from a wreck or dirty.

Whats folks opinions ?

Marcusm

RobAMerc wrote: »

folks,

I recently moved out of a fairly old property that we were in for 3 years.
On returning the keys the agent for the landlord complained that the house wasnt returned clean enough.
This was the list of issues.

It needed hovering ( despite we having had the carpets washed )
The windows needed cleaning
There were cobwebs
During the storms the wind had blown some of the bins contents from the green bin into the driveway. ( I cleaned this up )

Other than that we had spent 5 hrs scrubbing the place and were confident it was in a good shape, the landlord also has had painters in since so it cant have been so bad.

The agent wants to get in professional cleaners and wants us to pay for it ?

In 3 years we never missed a payment, repainted the bathroom numerous times, and kept in well with the neighbours ( the LL livrs across the road )

Is there some rules to say we have to leave it back immaculate ?

I am tempted to tell him to F off and that I am going to report him to the PRTB for witholding the deposit, I hav photos which show the place is far from a wreck or dirty.

Whats folks opinions ?

If they've had painters in then I suspect it will be difficult to establish that any cleaning required derived from your occupation and not that of the cleaners!

beauf

RobAMerc wrote: »

...The agent wants to get in professional cleaners and wants us to pay for it...

Complete chancer. Not after 3yr rental. Wish the PRTB would fine people like that.

RobAMerc

but, I'd be right in saying he has no right to expect the place returned in immaculate condition ?

I presume there is some level at which the landlord has the right to withhold deposit but believe me this place is not at that level.

Have I some right to tell him to F off ?

Gumbo

RobAMerc wrote: »

but, I'd be right in saying he has no right to expect the place returned in immaculate condition ?

I presume there is some level at which the landlord has the right to withhold deposit but believe me this place is not at that level.

Have I some right to tell him to F off ?

Has to be back in the same condition as you received less acceptable wear and tear.

athtrasna

Please stay civil and formal with the letting agent, telling them where to go will antagonise them.

Put in writing that you cleaned the property, enclose photographs if you have them. Tell them that you will appeal any deposit deductions to the PRTB and give them a deadline to return your deposit in full.

Keep copies of all your correspondence and good luck.

newwan

Take pics of it now before you leave. Ask him then for pics of before. If he has none then tell him lump off. Draft a ptrb letter and show it to him.

I had similiar issue. The threat of ptrb sorted it. The last poster is correct too. Youre allowed some wear and tear in a house esp over 3 years.

beauf

Place should be as clean as a normal person can reasonably make it. No more. Take photos of it.

Wear and tear isn't an issue. They haven't mentioned that.

Professional cleaning isn't something the LL can take from the tenant unless its in a terrible state. Both the agent and LL should know this. So either they are pulling a scam or are completely clueless.

PRTB will take a dim view of it regardless.

RobAMerc

thanks folks, the strong language is caused by my anger at this, apologies, I dont intend on using this sort of language with him.

cerastes

It may be that the landlord knows nothing about or has not authorised the deduction by the agent, ie the agent may just be pulling a fast one.

The_Conductor

Professional cleaning- after a tenancy- is becoming standard- however, unless its spelt out in the lease that it is going to happen, and the tenant is liable for it- it would be extremely difficult to justify charging the tenant for it.........

FYI- even if you spent a day cleaning- and it looked spotless- very often a landlord would still bring in outside contractors for a deepclean.

Just be grownup about this- point out that you left the property in the same condition that you received it- and the purpose of a deposit is to remedy any issues over and above normal wear and tear- and for no other purpose (without the prior agreement of both tenant and landlord- e.g. if it is spelt out in the lease that this is going to happen, you don't really have a foot to stand on).

If you still get no joy- lodge a PRTB case- they can adjudicate.

RobAMerc

RobAMerc wrote: »

but, I'd be right in saying he has no right to expect the place returned in immaculate condition ?

I presume there is some level at which the landlord has the right to withhold deposit but believe me this place is not at that level.

Have I some right to tell him to F off ?

I've never withheld deposit for the reasons listed. I've a letting agent, I think I've gotten cleaners in twice in between tenants (apartment withno carpets so cleaning is't an ordeal to be fair) in about 10 years on the letting agents recommendation.

Not the tenants problem.

Tell him you expect the deposit back in full, end of story. Sounds a total chancer.

Mrs OBumble

Maybe I'm just lazy, but when I eventually move out of my current place I plan to say to the LL "Let's get professional cleaners in - your call whether it comes from the deposit, or I pay them direct and you return the full deposit (less damage, of course) to me".

There's no way that I could get the place clean to the same level that they can, and I'd rather spend my time doing other things than scrubbing.

pawrick

Got in professional cleaners once, LL still tried to maintain the apartment wasn't up to scratch until we said we could provide proof it was cleaned with receipt and would be more than willing to inspect it with them and a rep from the company. Like that the place was spotless anyhow but we were just too busy to give it a final clean after moving our belongings and the dust that creates. Apartment was spotless before we handed back the keys.

Another apartment in continuous rent for a number of years with people being added and removed from the lease with it never left empty. Moved out at the end of my final lease along with the other 2 people I shared with as we decided to move to a bigger place. Prior to this we had good dealings with the LL. they inspected the apartment approx. every 6 weeks along with the others in the building which they owned (probably 20 apartments as they owned the entire block) LL tried to hold our deposit for repaint and hiring cleaners. I had been there 2 or 3 years and the person I replaced was there 3 years prior to me and in that time it was never painted so due to normal wear could do with being freshened up. LL refused to inspect the apartment with me there even though I worked in the same street and was flexible about times. They deducted costs from my deposit and sent me the remainder which turned out to be higher by about 200 euro than the total deposit we had paid so we didn't pursue it by way of karma for them. It seems to be common practice with some LLs to try to deduct costs of doing up a place for normal wear and tear before giving deposits back without bothering to actually check anything is in need of being done. Most LLs I dealt with were honest though.

davo10

How clean and tidy a property is at viewing has a huge baring on whether an interested tenant will take a property or not. There have been a lot of threads over the years with tenants giving out about the condition of a house/apartment when viewing or when moving in.

A lot of tenants consider cleaning a property as something to do quickly after all the boxes have been moved out to the new property and what a tenant considers "spotlessly tidy" may not tally with what the landlord considers clean. All LLs have had the experience of walking into a recently vacated property, looking around to see clean shiny surfaces, then to find ovens/carpets/under beds/garages covered in crap.


If the op rented a property which was cleaned to professional standard on entering it, then it should be left in the same condition. Wear and tear is different to an unclean property.

Paying the rent, keeping the place clean and getting on with the neighbours does not make an exceptional tenant, all tenants are expected to do this.

beauf

A lot of people ideas about what is cleaning certainly falls far short to what is required. But....

davo10 wrote: »

...a property which was cleaned to professional standard...

I have no idea what that means. "professional standard" or if indeed the property was at this 'standard' when the tenant moved in.

After 3yrs the LL is going to paint it. So to prepare it for painting, or to clean it after that, has nothing to do with the original tenancy. That's a business decision. So to try charge the tenant for it, is highly questionable.

davo10

beauf wrote: »

A lot of people ideas about what is cleaning certainly falls far short to what is required. But....



I have no idea what that means. "professional standard" or if indeed the property was at this 'standard' when the tenant moved in.

After 3yrs the LL is going to paint it. So to prepare it for painting, or to clean it after that, has nothing to do with the original tenancy. That's a business decision. So to try charge the tenant for it, is highly questionable.

You are wrong to assume that s property needs to be painted after 3 years, do you paint your own home every third year? Yes sometimes if there are kids then it may be inevitable but if a property needs to be painted after three years, the tenant has not been keeping the walls clean or has damaged the paintwork.

A professional standard is what you expect when you pay a cleaning professional to clean your house from top to bottom. In a lot of cases this may be on a par with how a house proud home owner would clean it but is generally of a lot higher standard than a tenent who is walking out the door.

beauf

davo10 wrote: »

You are wrong to assume that s property needs to be painted after 3 years..

Not assuming. From the first post.

RobAMerc wrote: »

...Other than that we had spent 5 hrs scrubbing the place and were confident it was in a good shape, the landlord also has had painters in since so it cant have been so bad....

davo10 wrote: »

do you paint your own home every third year? Yes sometimes if there are kids then it may be inevitable but if a property needs to be painted after three years, the tenant has not been keeping the walls clean or has damaged the paintwork.

A professional standard is what you expect when you pay a cleaning professional to clean your house from top to bottom. In a lot of cases this may be on a par with how a house proud home owner would clean it but is generally of a lot higher standard than a tenent who is walking out the door.

The reason to paint may be to make it appealing to a new tenant, get more rent from the property. Not solely that it "needs" painting, or maintenance If a LL is doing things as a LL because they are "house proud", (or like their own home) they are not treating it like a business. Either practically or in their own head.

In this case the LL is not charging the tenant for painting, as they would if it was undue wear and tear. Which suggests that its for commercial reasons.

allibastor

The LL has the responsibility to check the place out before you hand the keys back, not just take them and hope for the best.

The agent or LL should have been in during your move out to check things out, made a note of anything needed to be fixed and agreed with you that you either did this, or left deposit behind to pay for same.

The LL/ Agent also needs to provide evidence of the initial condition. A asset register of the house, and pictorial evidence of the condition needs to be given.

In an ideal world mind you!

Senecio

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Maybe I'm just lazy, but when I eventually move out of my current place I plan to say to the LL "Let's get professional cleaners in - your call whether it comes from the deposit, or I pay them direct and you return the full deposit (less damage, of course) to me".

There's no way that I could get the place clean to the same level that they can, and I'd rather spend my time doing other things than scrubbing.

We'll be moving soon and we are going to take the same approach. It's not laziness, it's ensuring that we get our deposit back and prioritising what I'd rather do with my time.

beauf

Makes perfect sense. How much roughly does it cost. I guess it depends on the side of the property.

April 73

People have very different ideas about what spotless means. Wear & tear is very different to how clean a place is left.

I had one tenant for three years & when she left I genuinely had to do nothing to the property. It really was spotlessly clean, down to the oven & the extractor fans. Even the skirting boards had been cleaned.

More recently a tenant moved out after a year. She met me at the door with rubber gloves on saying she had been cleaning for hours. Superficially it looked tidy & clean enough but after she had left a closer inspection revealed the place was absolutely filthy. Other than a very quick wipe down of the kitchen I don't think there had been any cleaning done in the entire year never mind when she moved out. It's no joke cleaning after other people & I can see why landlords would get a professional company in to do the job.

newacc2015

I have viewed houses after tenants have "cleaned them". Tenants generally think emptying the bin and vacuuming the floor is calling a house clean. Yet the fridge is full of half rotten food, the shower door is covered in scum, they have bothered to wash the floor etc. I have seen tenants admit they never vacuumed the house in 9 months. OP admitted that he didnt even dust the place properly.

I would call it reasonable for the landlord to look for a professional cleaner in OP circumstance. However the landlord got painters out, who I imagine are now the reason why the landlord wants professional cleaners out. IMO you cant have a tradesman out and then blame the dirtiest on the former tenant.

beauf

Its not the tenants job to prepare it for painting.

If the LL has photos showing its dirty the tenant will lose at the PRTB. If they don't and the tenant has photos of it clean. They tenant will win.

RoryW

Does your lease provide any details on standard you are to leave property ?

RobAMerc

My wife and our cleaner ( a professional cleaner )spent 5hrs cleaning it.
We cleaned the oven ( as per request of the landlord )
We had the carpets professionally washed

There was an issue with mold on the ceilings - we asked to have it repaired but did nothing when it wasnt

There was the odd mark on the wall, but in fairness the rads were replaced with new smaller ones 2 years ago, this left a much worse mess on the wall then we ever made.

Graces7

A vexed issue indeed. I have always left a house in a far cleaner state than when I moved in which in some cases is not saying much. eg frying pan full of stale fat in the oven...One landlord was so annoyed I was leaving after the house flooded in heavy rain as he had laid stone tiles on bare earth he claimed I had left the place " very dirty and rubbish all over the p;ace" I had bleached out all the cupboards etc but not much you can do when there is three inches of water in the house. A good agent got the deposit back thankfully. House before this broke out in serious black mould and the man with a van who moved my stuff was amazed at the cleaning I was doing..You have to try!

April 73

RobAMerc wrote: »

My wife and our cleaner ( a professional cleaner )spent 5hrs cleaning it.
We cleaned the oven ( as per request of the landlord )
We had the carpets professionally washed

There was an issue with mold on the ceilings - we asked to have it repaired but did nothing when it wasnt

There was the odd mark on the wall, but in fairness the rads were replaced with new smaller ones 2 years ago, this left a much worse mess on the wall then we ever made.

I read this & thought that I would be delighted if a tenant had cleaned the oven, the carpets were washed & two people had spent five hours cleaning. On the face of it, that sounds more than reasonable.

The LL has had painters in & the agent is now saying that he wants to get professional cleaners in - that is chancing his arm.


Did you take photos of the place when you left?

The_Conductor

Senecio wrote: »

We'll be moving soon and we are going to take the same approach. It's not laziness, it's ensuring that we get our deposit back and prioritising what I'd rather do with my time.

It depends on the extent of the deep cleaned thats needed- but its actually not unusual for it to exceed any deposit a tenant may have paid over. This is partly why it really should be addressed in the lease- so its spelt out cold and clear and there are no room for misunderstandings..... The last deep clean I was involved in- cost 600 Euro- and during the course of which- we also uncovered just under 4 grand worth of damage (including masonry damage in an apartment). The deposit was 1,200. The deposit was decreed forfeit. The tenant appealed it to the PRTB. Photographs of the damage and receipts (for over 4,400) were prepared by the landlord for the PRTB adjudication hearing. The tenant never turned up to the hearing............

In that instance- the management agent had inspected the property and cleared it- the damage wasn't immediately visually apparent (a bookshelf was moved to hide a hole in the wall etc)........

You never can tell.........

El_Duderino 09

I don't understand how the LL will quantify the cost of cleaning due to you as opposed to the painters.

Painters will create a fair but of mess depending on exactly what kind of work they are doing. Dust sheets leave a mess everywhere they go and filling and sanding are messy jobs.

Does the LL expect to hire cleaners to clean up after the painters and take it from your deposit? Some things might be obviously down to the tenant, like the oven and fridge but what about open spaces in which the painters will obviously create a mess?

RobAMerc

so, it gets worse...

Our lease was up in June but we agreed we would only go on a month by month basis in future as he upped the rent from 1450 to 1900.
On the first of November we gave notice to leave on the 1st of December.
Coming near that date it was obvious our new house would not be ready, so we asked for a week extension. It was no problem. I didnt cancel the payment of the months rent as I was conscious we didnt want to p*ss the LL off, we needed a bit of flexibility. The December rent was paid. As it turns out we didnt go till the 11th of December ( I had called into the LL personally and he was very obliging and said the extra few days was no problem )

Today the agent tells me that we were renting it by the month and that we were not entitled to the balance back either !
He proceeds to tell me that the house in his opinion wasnt professionally cleaned and sent me the following photos.
He seems to think that because I mentioned professional cleaning he has some kind of right to expect that !
Other than the fridge - which was in the garage and we totally forgot about ( hence the bottle of Prosecco ) the rest is just mold and 1 cobweb !
The last pic is actually down behind the oven as far as I can tell !

He also claims the place is cleaner after the painters and because of them the professional cleaners he uses would be cheaper.