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Landlord witholding deposit reason

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    #32
    PinkLemonade
    Closed Accounts Posts: 768 ✭✭✭PinkLemonade


    RobAMerc wrote: »
    so, it gets worse...

    Our lease was up in June but we agreed we would only go on a month by month basis in future as he upped the rent from 1450 to 1900.
    On the first of November we gave notice to leave on the 1st of December.
    Coming near that date it was obvious our new house would not be ready, so we asked for a week extension. It was no problem. I didnt cancel the payment of the months rent as I was conscious we didnt want to p*ss the LL off, we needed a bit of flexibility. The December rent was paid. As it turns out we didnt go till the 11th of December ( I had called into the LL personally and he was very obliging and said the extra few days was no problem )

    Today the agent tells me that we were renting it by the month and that we were not entitled to the balance back either !
    He proceeds to tell me that the house in his opinion wasnt professionally cleaned and sent me the following photos.
    He seems to think that because I mentioned professional cleaning he has some kind of right to expect that !
    Other than the fridge - which was in the garage and we totally forgot about ( hence the bottle of Prosecco ) the rest is just mold and 1 cobweb !
    The last pic is actually down behind the oven as far as I can tell !

    He also claims the place is cleaner after the painters and because of them the professional cleaners he uses would be cheaper. :D

    It looks like the house does need a professional clean tbh


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    #33
    quietsailor
    Registered Users Posts: 1,428 ✭✭✭quietsailor


    PinkLemonade wrote: »
    It looks like the house does need a professional clean tbh

    From the photos you posted yourself OP I'd have to agree with PinkLemonade - a professional cleaner should definitely not leave a cobweb so the LL/agent have a valid point - the house wasn't FULLY cleaned. Ye may have cleaned it to what you consider clean standards but I'd be a pissed off new tenant if I saw that on inspection and would ask for it to be cleaned before I move.


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    #34
    RobAMerc
    Registered Users Posts: 5,863 ✭✭✭RobAMerc


    Admittedly its not as I would like to have left it but dealing with trying to get into the new house as well as my wife and I both having a very busy schedule coming up to xmas it never happened.

    I do not however feel I need to clean a place to new condition, particularly when he was getting painters in. As a landlord myself I know money always needs to be spent on the exit of a tenant - those are parts of the costs.
    Why does he think he has a right to professional cleaning ?

    Here are the photos I took. Again we'd had the carpets washed, not something we needed to do off our own back.

    The PRTB agreed with me by the way, the deposit is for damage outside of wear and tear, owed rent etc, once its given back in a reasonable condition.
    They suggested bringing up the cobwebs were trying it on a bit.


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    #35
    RobAMerc
    Registered Users Posts: 5,863 ✭✭✭RobAMerc


    quietsailor wrote: »
    From the photos you posted yourself OP I'd have to agree with PinkLemonade - a professional cleaner should definitely not leave a cobweb so the LL/agent have a valid point - the house wasn't FULLY cleaned. Ye may have cleaned it to what you consider clean standards but I'd be a pissed off new tenant if I saw that on inspection and would ask for it to be cleaned before I move.

    I am sorry, the LL does not have the right to expect the house to be returned in a condition that does not require some cleaning or minor upgrading( especially after 3 years ), beinf a LL is a business and this is one of the costs of doing business. We did not damage anything or leave any outstanding bills incurring costs to the LL.


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    #36
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    RobAMerc wrote: »
    I am sorry, the LL does not have the right to expect the house to be returned in a condition that does not require some cleaning or minor upgrading( especially after 3 years ), beinf a LL is a business and this is one of the costs of doing business. We did not damage anything or leave any outstanding bills incurring costs to the LL.

    In an earlier post you said that a professional cleaner helped to clean the house with you before you left, I'd be having a word with your cleaner if I were you. Most will clean the easily visible areas first and skip over the areas you can't see when you walk in a room, you'd have to agree the areas in those photos are in plain sight. You confirmed what I said earlier, for most tenants, the clean up is done quickly after the last boxes are removed.

    The LL has a right to expect the house to be handed back in the same state of cleanliness as it was when you took up your residency. Wear and tare is different from dark cobwebs and grime on the windows. Sorry but the pictures tell the true storey.

    Also worth noting OP that after 3 years, the notice required to terminate a tenancy is 84 days, not one month if your tenancy was part4. The LL did you a solid by agreeing one month and even allowing you to extend, then extend the extension.


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    #37
    athtrasna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    It looks like the agent sent the worst of the pics and you sent the best OP

    To be honest I'd be inclined to get cleaners in for a deep clean to sort the mould and cobwebs but I don't think the tenant should be liable. A decent landlord should want to showcase the place in the best possible condition.


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    #38
    RobAMerc
    Registered Users Posts: 5,863 ✭✭✭RobAMerc


    davo10 wrote: »
    Wear and tare is different from dark cobwebs and grime on the windows. Sorry but the pictures tell the true storey.

    It is not grime on the windows its mold. Mold that had been painted over before we moved in and is no doubt being painted over again as we speak.

    I think my photos show the house was left in a reasonable condition. The PRTB rules agree by the way. However I concede that the place wasn't left as new ( but it wasn't new 3 years ago either )

    Does anyone have an opinion on the rent paid ? Its actually far more important to me, and I think displays the level the agents really at.


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    #39
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    RobAMerc wrote: »
    It is not grime on the windows its mold. Mold that had been painted over before we moved in and is no doubt being painted over again as we speak.

    I think my photos show the house was left in a reasonable condition. The PRTB rules agree by the way. However I concede that the place wasn't left as new ( but it wasn't new 3 years ago either )

    Does anyone have an opinion on the rent paid ? Its actually far more important to me, and I think displays the level the agents really at.

    Paint won't stick to mould, it peels off, there doesn't seem to be any paint peeling in those photos so it would appear that the mould is over the paint. The PRTB rules are open to interpretation by the reader, I suspect the photos taken by the agent may be more damning than your opinion.


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    #40
    RobAMerc
    Registered Users Posts: 5,863 ✭✭✭RobAMerc


    davo10 wrote: »

    Also worth noting OP that after 3 years, the notice required to terminate a tenancy is 84 days, not one month if your tenancy was part4. The LL did you a solid by agreeing one month and even allowing you to extend, then extend the extension.

    Our lease was up in June, we were on a 1 month rolling contract with 1 months notice period.
    He knew well with us leaving at the start if December he needed to have the place redecorated he'd not get anyone in till the start of Jan. Allowing us to stay on shortened the vacant period. He admitted so himself.


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    #41
    RobAMerc
    Registered Users Posts: 5,863 ✭✭✭RobAMerc


    davo10 wrote: »
    Paint won't stick to mould, it peels off, there doesn't seem to be any paint peeling in those photos so it would appear that the mould is over the paint. The PRTB rules are open to interpretation by the reader, I suspect the photos taken by the agent may be more damning than your opinion.

    I painted the bathroom at least 3 times. The mold came back through each time.
    I talked to the PRTB - she was 100% the place needed to be returned in a reasonable standard. Mold behind the rads is not something I am responsible for.


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    #42
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    RobAMerc wrote: »
    I painted the bathroom at least 3 times. The mold came back through each time.
    I talked to the PRTB - she was 100% the place needed to be returned in a reasonable standard. Mold behind the rads is not something I am responsible for.

    The great big cobweb in the corner of the room is, what did she say about that? Crikey if you can't clean something as obvious as that, what must the areas you can't see be like?


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    #43
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    OP the agent must give you a chance to fix anything they have highlighted so get in there with a duster for the cobweb and a damp cloth for the window sill and don't leave without your full deposit! any more nonsense from the agent and you can easily make a complaint about them or even check if they are registered on the Property Services Regulatory Authority website.


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    #44
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    OP the agent must give you a chance to fix anything they have highlighted.

    That's interesting, have you a link to support this?

    Also, that licensing board doesn't seem to have a complaints procedure.


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    #45
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    davo10 wrote: »
    That's interesting, have you a link to support this?

    Also, that licensing board doesn't seem to have a complaints procedure.
    No but it makes sense and is what is reasonable.

    also the whole issue of professional/deep cleaning is only an issue if written into the lease. Otherwise it is cleaned to a good standard taking wear and tear into account!


    Complaints form Here.


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    #46
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    No but it makes sense and is what is reasonable.

    also the whole issue of professional/deep cleaning is only an issue if written into the lease. Otherwise it is cleaned to a good standard taking wear and tear into account!


    Complaints form Here.

    That is very different than "must give you a chance".


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    #47
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    davo10 wrote: »
    That is very different than "must give you a chance".
    There have been cases in front of the tribunals where landlords were ordered to repay deposits in full because they had cleaned before giving the tenants a chance to do a better job, it will go againts any landlord who is not reasonable and trying to keep a tenants deposit to cover a refurb of the property or to pay for cleaning of wear and tear is a terrible thing to do.


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    #48
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    There have been cases in front of the tribunals where landlords were ordered to repay deposits in full because they had cleaned before giving the tenants a chance to do a better job, it will go againts any landlord who is not reasonable and trying to keep a tenants deposit to cover a refurb of the property or to pay for cleaning of wear and tear is a terrible thing to do.

    Links please? To be fair, the photos show great big cobwebs, that can hardly be called a good standard, that also isn't wear and tear, it's dirt. The op doesn't say he was charged for any refurbishment nor for wear and tear, he was being charged for having the place cleaned. If the house was clean when he moved in, it should be the same when he moved out.


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    #49
    RobAMerc
    Registered Users Posts: 5,863 ✭✭✭RobAMerc


    davo10 wrote: »
    the photos show great big cobwebs
    it shows a great big cobweb, an oversight. The rest of what you are looking at is mold. This isnt a clean room in a lab lads, its an old house. If you dont believe me have a look at the state the walls behind the rads were left in for the last 2 years after they were replaced.

    Also, have a look at the mold that kept coming back on the ceiling after numerous cleaning attempts.


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    #50
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    davo10 wrote: »
    Links please? To be fair, the photos show great big cobwebs, that can hardly be called a good standard, that also isn't wear and tear, it's dirt. The op doesn't say he was charged for any refurbishment nor for wear and tear, he was being charged for having the place cleaned. If the house was clean when he moved in, it should be the same when he moved out.

    http://www.prtb.ie/dispute-resolution/disputes/the-three-stages-of-a-tenancy/wear-and-tear
    While a dwelling should be left clean and tidy on its vacation, a landlord cannot expect the dwelling to be returned in the same condition that it was presented in at the commencement of the tenancy. A landlord must take into consideration the length of the tenancy, the number of occupants, whether or not there were children living in the dwelling and whether any deterioration to fixtures, furnishings, walls or floor coverings reflected “ordinary and reasonable use”.

    A reasonable and common sense approach should be adopted by both landlords and tenants to avoid disputes in relation to wear and tear.


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    #51
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    RobAMerc wrote: »
    it shows a great big cobweb, an oversight. The rest of what you are looking at is mold. This isnt a clean room in a lab lads, its an old house. If you dont believe me have a look at the state the walls behind the rads were left in for the last 2 years after they were replaced.

    Also, have a look at the mold that kept coming back on the ceiling after numerous cleaning attempts.
    Don't be minding those who say you have to get out the forensic cleaning kit and toothbrushs to clean the place, once it is clean and tidy there is nothing more to be done.


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    #52
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    http://www.prtb.ie/dispute-resolution/disputes/the-three-stages-of-a-tenancy/wear-and-tear

    Are you reading the thread at all? The LL is not withholding the deposit because of wear and tear, it is because the op didn't clean it well enough. And that link mentions nothing about your assertion that the tenant must be allowed back in to clean the house after they have vacated it isn't an example of LL losing PTRB cases for not allowing tenants back in.


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    #53
    cpoh1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,605 ✭✭✭cpoh1


    davo10 - give it a break will you?

    Its fairly obvious from the photos that this is your typical poor condition old house with little or no care or upkeep from the landlord over the years. If you were to buy it and make it your home the thing would be gutted.

    Making silly comments about one oversight of cobwebs to form a defense for the letting agent clearly pulling a fast one is wearing thin.


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    #54
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    cpoh1 wrote: »
    davo10 - give it a break will you?

    Its fairly obvious from the photos that this is your typical poor condition old house with little or no care or upkeep from the landlord over the years. If you were to buy it and make it your home the thing would be gutted.

    Making silly comments about one oversight of cobwebs to form a defense for the letting agent clearly pulling a fast one is wearing thin.

    Ah here come on, the op is unhappy with being charged for cleaning after insisting that it was cleaned thouroughly by a "professional" yet there are the pictures of clearly visible places which were not cleaned. It's all those "silly oversights" that the op should have cleaned but didn't and is now being charged for.

    Less of the "give it a break will you" crap, as others have also posted, it's not as clean as the op would have had is believe in his opening post. The age of the house makes damn all difference when it comes to cleaning it.


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    #55
    April 73
    Registered Users Posts: 846 ✭✭✭April 73


    Well I backed the OP after his assertion of the place being spotless, his wife & cleaner spending five hours cleaning & getting the carpets cleaned. After seeing the photos I can't stand by that, especially when the OP admitted it wasn't as good as he would like to have left it but was under pressure, boxes, time, packing etc etc.
    It was either spotless or it wasn't.

    I'm also not so sure the agent or the LL are being unreasonable. The OP seems to want to stay as long as suited him in December & only pay for the days used. Very handy for him but really not so fair from the landlords point of view. I'm sure he wanted to get the place cleaned & painted & hopefully back on the market by Jan. He was left hanging by the tenant as to when suited him to move out.


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    #56
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    April 73 wrote: »
    Well I backed the OP after his assertion of the place being spotless, his wife & cleaner spending five hours cleaning & getting the carpets cleaned. After seeing the photos I can't stand by that, especially when the OP admitted it wasn't as good as he would like to have left it but was under pressure, boxes, time, packing etc etc.
    It was either spotless or it wasn't.

    I'm also not so sure the agent or the LL are being unreasonable. The OP seems to want to stay as long as suited him in December & only pay for the days used. Very handy for him but really not so fair from the landlords point of view. I'm sure he wanted to get the place cleaned & painted & hopefully back on the market by Jan. He was left hanging by the tenant as to when suited him to move out.

    The place was left very clean and tidy and allowing the op to take a minute to get rid of that cobweb and wipe a small mark off the window sill would not just be reasonable but IMO would be pedantic on the part of any agent or landlord considering the damage and losses that are incurred in some lettings.

    The landlord/agent agreed to the early termination of the lease so that is not relevant here. What is relevant is that the place was left in excellent condition and if it needs a deep clean or a professional clean that is due to normal wear and tear and not anything that the tenants have done or not done!


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    #57
    athtrasna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    Mod note

    Cpoh1 and Davo10 please take note of the forum charter and remain civil on thread.


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    #58
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    While its far from spotless its not terrible either. I think a LL would have a hard time justifying taking the deposit for cleaning it a bit more. Also as its being painted anyway they'd have even less justification. Less again if its after 3yr rental. I'd let it go to the PRTB. Some (not all) of that mould looks like a leak and damp in the wall. The PRTB would be interested in seeing that.


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    #59
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    OP the agent must give you a chance to fix anything they have highlighted

    No- they do not have to do this. Is the agent supposed to be like a helicoptor mammy looking over their shoulders as they clean- saying 'Hey Brian, come back, you missed a patch here........'
    foggy_lad wrote: »
    don't leave without your full deposit!

    The OP vacated the property just shy of a full month ago.
    foggy_lad wrote: »
    any more nonsense from the agent and you can easily make a complaint about them or even check if they are registered on the Property Services Regulatory Authority website.

    'Nonsense'- as you put it- is subjective. The agent is not a supervisor for the OP, nor a parent. Some of the things they picked out were OTT- however, they are paid to be there by the landlord, and to safeguard the property.

    In the OP's defense- the carpets look like they were only laid yesterday- they're ridiculously clean- however, this standard of cleaning was clearly not consistent across the property.

    As I posted earlier- the OP needs to check precisely what was in their lease. If it specified a deepclean- the landlord is covered- if not- the terms of the 2004 apply- which state clearly, that the purpose of the deposit is to make good damage over and above normal wear and tear- nothing else........

    Suggesting the agent is a cowboy- and pointing the OP at the regulatory authority- is confrontational and vindictive. If the OP wishes to dispute the charge- the prescribed course of action is via the PRTB- firing missives at the PSRA- bitching about the agent- will only make the OP appear to be cookie.


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    #60
    Black_Knight
    Moderators Posts: 12,375 ✭✭✭✭Black_Knight


    The whole issue of what is/isnt clean really annoys me. I moved into an apartment 3 years ago and was there when the last tenent moved out and during their final inspection. The agency letting the property are actually really good at what they do, and probably one of the best ive dealt with, but the inspection was a quick walk around the apartment, and a "yeah its all grand". To be honest, the place was fine. Not hotel standard, but clean.

    Fast forward 2 years when im leaving and its a whole different story. They now have a specific person in charge of returning deposits etc. I expected the same treatment as when I moved in but this time there was a checklist of items. We keep the place clean as a standard, but gave it a deep clean before we left, and were called out on the oven because the glass had a smear on it. Also called out on the sink because, while it had been cleaned, it hadnt been brilloed to a mirror finish. The hob too, while cleaned, had little spots around the ceramic plates (anyone with those ceramic plates will know what I mean). Essentially, the were looking for the apartment to be as it was the first day anyone moved in, and if not, contract cleaners would be called in.

    The next place I moved into was flithy, but was assured it would be cleaned before we moved in. It was(nt). Cleaners did call out, but did a poor job. twice more we got cleaners out to do some basic cleaning, but in the end we were left with carpets that were never vacuumed, cobwebs everywhere, and a layer of black dust in the back of the fridge. We live there, so obviously we cleaned these up, but the thoughts of the landlord coming back to me when we leave and saying professional cleaners need to be called in is both worrying and laughable. At the end of the day, they hold the deposit, and while PRTB are there to assist, these things can drag on for months to resolve.


    Feel free to ignore this post.... /RANT


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    #61
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Really an issue for a more general topic. Which would end up at renting unfurnished and tenants having to hand back the property newly painted all white so that's how the next tenant gets it.


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