Flooding as an election issue

nice_guy80

All of a sudden the inaction of the government over the December and New Year period will become an election issue

Where were the ministers over Christmas and New Year when people were being flooded out of their homes and businesses?

Why wasn't the army mobilised to help assist with householders valiantly trying to hold back the rising waters around their sandbagged houses, many on the brink of exhaustion

The lack of a response from official Ireland to the whole issue is a disgrace

deanh

for perspective:
260 homes have been flooded,
the Army, Navy and Reserves have been mobilised.
What more could have been done?

nice_guy80

A lot more have been flooded and then the water receded. They are not included.
the 260 homes are currently under water.

There are a lot of businesses flooded


the amount of land flooded is unbelievable

Kristopherus

nice_guy80 wrote: »

All of a sudden the inaction of the government over the December and New Year period will become an election issue

Where were the ministers over Christmas and New Year when people were being flooded out of their homes and businesses?

Why wasn't the army mobilised to help assist with householders valiantly trying to hold back the rising waters around their sandbagged houses, many on the brink of exhaustion

The lack of a response from official Ireland to the whole issue is a disgrace

Were you out helping?

nice_guy80

I was.

We have over 8000 soldiers sitting in barracks across the country

Just over 100 have been deployed.

Lockstep

nice_guy80 wrote: »

All of a sudden the inaction of the government over the December and New Year period will become an election issue

Where were the ministers over Christmas and New Year when people were being flooded out of their homes and businesses?

Why wasn't the army mobilised to help assist with householders valiantly trying to hold back the rising waters around their sandbagged houses, many on the brink of exhaustion

The lack of a response from official Ireland to the whole issue is a disgrace

Actually, the army were deployed: the PDF were at breaking point working double shifts and the RDF were mobilised for the first time in a generation to help with the flooding. I know as I was mobilised myself!

BoJack Horseman

nice_guy80 wrote: »

All of a sudden the inaction of the government over the December and New Year period will become an election issue

Where were the ministers over Christmas and New Year when people were being flooded out of their homes and businesses?

Why wasn't the army mobilised to help assist with householders valiantly trying to hold back the rising waters around their sandbagged houses, many on the brink of exhaustion

The lack of a response from official Ireland to the whole issue is a disgrace

Perspective is important.....

Enda cannot command the waters to recede.

From where I live, flood damage was caused by council inaction... not government. Our local authority is run by a county manager, unelected.
There is nothing an Taoiseach can do to make that chap do his job better.

As an election issue, I can't see much hay being made from it.

The level of warmth & associated rainfall is unprecedented.
The opposition may bleat "more money" however they are never going to elaborate further than that, so it just looks hollow.

This issue is now weeks old & the opposition have not made much noise over it.... It suggests there is little of substance they can complain about.

Godge

nice_guy80 wrote: »

All of a sudden the inaction of the government over the December and New Year period will become an election issue

Where were the ministers over Christmas and New Year when people were being flooded out of their homes and businesses?

Why wasn't the army mobilised to help assist with householders valiantly trying to hold back the rising waters around their sandbagged houses, many on the brink of exhaustion

The lack of a response from official Ireland to the whole issue is a disgrace

Did you never hear of King Canute?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Canute_and_the_waves

Cookie_Monster

Lockstep wrote: »

Actually, the army were deployed: the PDF were at breaking point working double shifts and the RDF were mobilised for the first time in a generation to help with the flooding. I know as I was mobilised myself!

Seems pretty good response to me.

I could live without Enda showing up for no reason other than a few photos and a chat, what's he actually going to do? He'd hardly pitch in filling sandbags now would he.

nice_guy80

Parts of Galway, Roscommon and Westmeath have been under water since early December.

no sign of the army until last week.
or TDs. once there were cameras around.

CruelCoin

nice_guy80 wrote: »

or TDs. once there were cameras around.

What does it possibly matter if the local TD was around or not?

What is he/she meant to do?

Other than stand around going "it's terrible joe" "bejorah bejaysus 'tis 'tis", which is not what we elected them for, what could they do by being there?

nice_guy80

CruelCoin wrote: »

What does it possibly matter if the local TD was around or not?

What is he/she meant to do?

Other than stand around going "it's terrible joe" "bejorah bejaysus 'tis 'tis", which is not what we elected them for, what could they do by being there?

I think it matters to the people whose homes are being flooded, that those in power actually realise the situation families are in.

newacc2015

nice_guy80 wrote: »

I think it matters to the people whose homes are being flooded, that those in power actually realise the situation families are in.

260 house is a good sized housing estate in Dublin. The Government isnt too pushed, as it isnt a major electoral issue. No one outside the flooded area is going to care when they cast their vote this year.

I personally cant understand why their hasnt been relocation fund for some areas. I imagine if this was the Netherlands, people would have been paid to move to a new area. There is places in Cork, that seem to get flooded every year, yet everyone continues to live there. But this Ireland and people are irrational when it comes to housing eg cant evict a person who hasnt paid their rent in over 12 months

micosoft

The lack of any perspective in this country is extraordinary. I really do hope we never have an actual crisis as some peoples heads would actually explode. What we are experiencing now is far from an emergency and it's as if we are the only country in the World suffering from floods. We have extensive flooding in our neighbour. To give some context look at the list of European floods. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_floods_in_Europe
While we figure once or twice we are far down the list of damage and death being done. Our current flooding does not even factor when compared to previous years.

As for responsibility it lies largely with the householders who voted for councillors based on their ability to get planning. The central Government can merely respond to floods. Voters and house buyers can prevent them by not demanding councillors give inappropriate planning and refusing to buy houses in floodplains. Of course the last party that attempted to bring this agenda forward got promptly voted out.

It would be far better that people focused on this rather then populist posturing. Of course, I have absolutely no doubt that the same posters complaining of politicians absence over the past two weeks would be complaining about the exact opposite if they did turn up. Opposition for oppositions sake.

micosoft

newacc2015 wrote: »

260 house is a good sized housing estate in Dublin. The Government isnt too pushed, as it isnt a major electoral issue. No one outside the flooded area is going to care when they cast their vote this year.

I personally cant understand why their hasnt been relocation fund for some areas. I imagine if this was the Netherlands, people would have been paid to move to a new area. There is places in Cork, that seem to get flooded every year, yet everyone continues to live there. But this Ireland and people are irrational when it comes to housing eg cant evict a person who hasnt paid their rent in over 12 months

260 out of 1,994,845 is a pretty small element of our housing stock, considering that that small number is distributed all over the country; wouldn't you agree?

Any evidence to support that assertion that the Dutch pay for people to move if they built/bought on a flood? Certainly seems to be a vivid imagination there. Perhaps you mean that Dutch voters don't exchange their vote with local councillors in return for the right to get planning permission for building on flood plains?

You'd imagine that if a place got flooded every year that
a. You wouldn't have built/bought there in the first place
b. You'd move
I'm not sure why you think the taxpayer would have to pay for a person to do either of these things they are personally responsible for.

newacc2015

micosoft wrote: »

260 out of 1,994,845 is a pretty small element of our housing stock, considering that that small number is distributed all over the country; wouldn't you agree?

Any evidence to support that assertion that the Dutch pay for people to move if they built/bought on a flood? Certainly seems to be a vivid imagination there. Perhaps you mean that Dutch voters don't exchange their vote with local councillors in return for the right to get planning permission for building on flood plains?

You'd imagine that if a place got flooded every year that
a. You wouldn't have built/bought there in the first place
b. You'd move
I'm not sure why you think the taxpayer would have to pay for a person to do either of these things they are personally responsible for.

That what I implied when I said 260 homes is literally a housing estate in Dublin. Its tiny relative to the size of Ireland

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/17/arts/design/flood-control-in-the-netherlands-now-allows-sea-water-in.html?_r=0
The Netherlands is dealing with flooding of the sea. They are spending $3bn to flood some of the land in case of potential flooding.

Some of these houses are in older areas. Look at Bandon which is over 200 years old. Can you blame a family who have lived there for the last few decades for not realising they are on a floodplain?

I dont think the taxpayer should have to pick up the tab. But if we are going to have to spend tens of millions on flood relief, the army, potential loss of power from ESB dams etc. every time there is a flood. Or hundreds of million on flood defenses. Maybe we should do what NYC or the Netherlands are doing. Demolish the houses and move people elsewhere.

CruelCoin

newacc2015 wrote: »

I personally cant understand why their hasnt been relocation fund for some areas. I imagine if this was the Netherlands, people would have been paid to move to a new area.s

Thats because flood defences are in pristine condition in Holland and they tax the ****e out of you to pay for it. Were they to fail, then yes its a big issue.

Here though, no such promises were made, and its not exactly fair to tax everyone else to pay for the relocation fund for people who went ahead and built on a bloody floodplain.

Lockstep

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Parts of Galway, Roscommon and Westmeath have been under water since early December.

no sign of the army until last week.
or TDs. once there were cameras around.

Dunno about Roscommon or Westmeath but the army have been active in Galway since the very start of the flooding. I got mobilised on the 12th December after the PDF had spent the previous 9 days working doubletime in the surrounding area.
Overall, over 2000 soldiers have been deployed since the flooding started (also, that's me third from the left!)
Considering how incredibly backbreaking the work is, deploying over a quarter of our army in the last 30 days pretty impressive work.

If you're arguing we need a bigger military, I completely agree with you but it's undeniable that the Irish army did a fantastic job all things considered.

flutered

deanh wrote: »

for perspective:
260 homes have been flooded,
the Army, Navy and Reserves have been mobilised.
What more could have been done?

taking 20% off the flood defences budget, in this years budget was a great help

flutered

what was on face book as regards farmers having to divert streams from entering the sea, by taking their grant payments from them, i am told that there are vidoes up as regards this

Pride Fighter

If it is an issue, dont vote for FF/FG. FF/FG controlled councils allowed developers build on flood plains in the Counties bordering the River Shannon. Concrete foundations remove the natural sponging and cause flooding downstream. Vote for groups/parties or individuals that will take the gombeenism out of planning and promote sustainable development.

micosoft

newacc2015 wrote: »

That what I implied when I said 260 homes is literally a housing estate in Dublin. Its tiny relative to the size of Ireland

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/17/arts/design/flood-control-in-the-netherlands-now-allows-sea-water-in.html?_r=0
The Netherlands is dealing with flooding of the sea. They are spending $3bn to flood some of the land in case of potential flooding.

That's quite a different thing if they are doing a CPO to take land. We already do this for flood relief works.

My issue is with people who lobbied to have their one-off house built in a location prone to flooding. They have to take ownership of their bad judgement and not expect the state to bail them out.

newacc2015 wrote: »

Some of these houses are in older areas. Look at Bandon which is over 200 years old. Can you blame a family who have lived there for the last few decades for not realising they are on a floodplain?

If it's a rare event then it's an insurable item. I do accept that there is potential here that due to climate change rare events become common and those affected should be supported by the state. The obvious thing is to use the Carbon Levy to fund a Climate Change fund for this. But we need to separate out the people genuinely affected by climate change vs those who made bad decisions or it will become another political pot.

newacc2015 wrote: »

I dont think the taxpayer should have to pick up the tab. But if we are going to have to spend tens of millions on flood relief, the army, potential loss of power from ESB dams etc. every time there is a flood. Or hundreds of million on flood defenses. Maybe we should do what NYC or the Netherlands are doing. Demolish the houses and move people elsewhere.

There is a lot of merit if it costs the state money to address it on a regular basis. We also need to accept that we can't fix everything and people will need to get used to weather events like the past few weeks.

nice_guy80

micosoft wrote: »

260 out of 1,994,845 is a pretty small element of our housing stock, considering that that small number is distributed all over the country; wouldn't you agree?

Any evidence to support that assertion that the Dutch pay for people to move if they built/bought on a flood? Certainly seems to be a vivid imagination there. Perhaps you mean that Dutch voters don't exchange their vote with local councillors in return for the right to get planning permission for building on flood plains?

You'd imagine that if a place got flooded every year that
a. You wouldn't have built/bought there in the first place
b. You'd move
I'm not sure why you think the taxpayer would have to pay for a person to do either of these things they are personally responsible for.

I think ye are ignoring the amount of land under water and farms flooded

it affects a lot of people when roads are flooded, schools inaccessible

NIMAN

I think the Gov is on a loser on the flooding issue, since many people are giving them 100% of the blame for something that they cannot control, nature.

Even if you think they should have done more,no matter what would have been done would never have been enough, the amount of rain was simply too much.

As for it being an election issue, I find it slightly hard to take that all the opposition parties are using the misery of peoples flooded homes, businesses and farms as a party political issue.

Everyone should be pulling together on this, not using it as a chance to electioneer.

flutered

NIMAN wrote: »

I think the Gov is on a loser on the flooding issue, since many people are giving them 100% of the blame for something that they cannot control, nature.

Even if you think they should have done more,no matter what would have been done would never have been enough, the amount of rain was simply too much.

As for it being an election issue, I find it slightly hard to take that all the opposition parties are using the misery of peoples flooded homes, businesses and farms as a party political issue.

Everyone should be pulling together on this, not using it as a chance to electioneer.

but who took 20 percent from the flood defence budget in this years budget

BoJack Horseman

flutered wrote: »

but who took 20 percent from the flood defence budget in this years budget

link?

heyjude

I suspect that the imposition of a hefty levy on all home insurance policies to enable affordable insurance to be offered in potentially flood prone areas or to create a fund to cover total flood cover in flood hit areas which are uninsurable at present, will also become an election issue.

Insurance is usually based on risk, if you are a young driver or have had several claims, your higher perceived risk means you pay more and if you are a more experienced driver with no claims, your lower risk means you pay more. Now the government seems to favour a situation where if you on top of a hill(low risk of flooding), you should pay more to pay for those living on a flood plain(high risk of flooding) and this on top of the two levies that already exist.

Charging a levy on everyone to compensate people who chose to buy / build houses on a flood plain, when the flood plain flooded, is unjust on the majority, though the government should perhaps create a self funded insurance pool scheme for those suffering flood damage who are not living on previously known flood plains. I'd also be wary if everyone ends up paying for flood damage that was inevitable, in that many of the planned flood defence schemes may merely divert flooding of existing areas and result in the flooding of further homes in other areas instead.

theflipdave

Great points about the Dutch perspective

nice_guy80

With thousands of people being denied insurance, I'm sure this will be an issue

the management of the Shannon river is also a huge issue in the midlands and mid west

nice_guy80

With thousands of people being denied insurance, I'm sure this will be an issue

the management of the Shannon river is also a huge issue in the midlands and mid west

micosoft

nice_guy80 wrote: »

I think ye are ignoring the amount of land under water and farms flooded

it affects a lot of people when roads are flooded, schools inaccessible

I'm well aware as a country dweller thank you. What are you proposing to do about that? Build land on stilts? School is not accessible for a week - it's an issue but in many countries such as the US they have school out for snow days frequently. People just need to get on with it.

macraignil

nice_guy80 wrote: »

the management of the Shannon river is also a huge issue in the midlands and mid west

Is anyone running for election in those areas claiming they will do anything to manage the Shannon flooding?

The RTE news article on the flood defence of Nijmegan clearly showed how giving the river extra capacity to release flood water by building an extra channel has been a success there. Why not make a channel along the route of the old Limerick to Killaloe canal and help drain the flood water in the Shannon?

Also in parts of Holland they put houses on pontoons that float when the area is effected by flooding. Maybe this would be a cheaper solution.

The only political flood talk I have heard is a flood relief fund and the threat of making everyone with home insurance pay for those unfortunate enough to experience flooding.

nice_guy80

I said this would be an issue

Boxer Moran got elected in Longford-Westmeath after all the hard work he did for people with the flooding around Athlone and Longford

macraignil

nice_guy80 wrote: »

I said this would be an issue

Boxer Moran got elected in Longford-Westmeath after all the hard work he did for people with the flooding around Athlone and Longford

Has he done much since being elected to help prevent the flooding being as big a problem this winter?