how to solve flood crisis

P. Breathnach

twowheelsonly wrote: »

Dredging the rivers would be a good start....

Not in every case. If you dredge the upper reaches of a river, that gets water through to the lower reaches faster, and you might flood places downstream.

It's a delicate balancing act.

breakemall

I took this one in Athlone before Christmas, all ground floor apartments will come with a pool?

smash

breakemall wrote: »

I took this one in Athlone before Christmas, all ground floor apartments will come with a pool?

Hopefully there's no underground car park.

ScumLord

colossus-x wrote: »

Relocate all towns away from major rivers. Towns by rivers is a throwback to the an era when traders travelled by boat/river and congregated by a port or whatever. If we didn't build all our towns around them then we wouldn't be suffering so much.

It goes back much further than that. Humans could almost be described as river apes. We've lived beside rivers and spread throughout most continents by following rivers (Well, that's the theory now competing with the idea that we just followed the coasts).

I don't think moving away from rivers is going to help in Ireland, you can't really get all that far away from them and flooding can happen anywhere when it's raining. Irelands full of turlock's that can fill up and flood even if it's nowhere near a river.

twowheelsonly wrote: »

Dredging the rivers would be a good start.

How is dredging going to affect all the wildlife living in the river though?

breakemall

smash wrote: »

Hopefully there's no underground car park.

Should that not be underwater car park?

Maybe change the name from ATHLone to ATHLantis?

Whatever is done though will be little comfort for the ones under water now.

For Forks Sake

Custardpi wrote: »

The obvious solution, as every decent business person knows is not to see the floods as a crisis but rather an opportunity. For instance, instead of moaning about a bit of water in Enniscorthy why not embrace it & rebrand the town as "The Venice of South Eastern Ireland". This will save on expensive flood repairs (the water will be left there), while providing exciting potential for tourism.

I'm not even joking here, Monasterevin have already tried that... http://www.leinsterleader.ie/what-s-on/arts-culture-entertainment/monasterevin-venice-of-ireland-festival-set-for-july-1-5214142

ScumLord

If every house in the country owned a jet ski we'd welcome the floods.

Sam Kade

KwackerJack wrote: »

We should go back in time and change the way we destroyed and changed the land.....the we would have no issues with flooding

You mean cover the country in trees again, maybe we should also get people out of the country and restock it with brown bears and wolves like it used to be

jmayo

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Not in every case. If you dredge the upper reaches of a river, that gets water through to the lower reaches faster, and you might flood places downstream.

It's a delicate balancing act.

I think that is what happened further down the Barrow this year ?
Carlow had works carried out and shoved the problem further down river.
Graiguenamanagh got it really bad this year.

breakemall wrote: »

I took this one in Athlone before Christmas, all ground floor apartments will come with a pool?

I bet that is now no longer Sale Agreed.

Hammer89

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

A big massive Chinese style reservour in the centre of the country might not be a bad idea, look for least populated area and use that.

You had me at a big massive Chinese. Let's eat away our problems.

kneemos

the_pen_turner wrote: »

you can laugh and mock all you want.

silicon will help. it cant do any harm


my neighbour was/is threatened by flooding. almost at floor level a few days ago

I siliconed her front door before we put the sand bags there


I know it wont stop it coming up through the floor or through the toilets or soaking through the walls. but it will dramatically reduce the volume coming through the door

They don't believe me when I tell them things.

Oh the fools.

Austria!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3382245/The-root-flood-crisis-mad-dash-EU-cash-writes-GEORGE-MONBIOT.html

https://geographyas.info/rivers/flood-management/

ScumLord

Austria! wrote: »

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3382245/The-root-flood-crisis-mad-dash-EU-cash-writes-GEORGE-MONBIOT.html

That's hilarious. I would have thought the British navy played a bigger part in the devastation of forests on the British isles. They literally striped the islands bare to build their ships and conquer the world. The EU got to the party far to late to be to blamed for the deforestation in the British isles.

MadsL

topmanamillion wrote: »

Do not build on flood plains.
5 years minimum jail sentence for any local authority member that ignores engineering reports.

The simple fact is we can't build defenses along the entire length of the river shannon (360km long)
Where defences can be improved that makes sense both financially and environmentally then do it. But there are some people, through no fault of their own, who are living in unsustainable areas. They will have to be relocated/compensated through state coffers and areas designated as flood plains and the building of further homes/commercial areas on them prevented by law.

syklops wrote: »

Stop building on flood plains would be a start.

Stop bribing the planning authority to let you live anywhere you want. would also help.

Funny how the one organisation who has repeatedly pointed out the problems with planning and development in Ireland that lead to flooding is the one that is most hated.

Oh you silly An Taisce!!

Tiddlypeeps

Del2005 wrote: »

Flood defences don't work as plenty of towns in the UK have found out.

Carlow town used to be one of the worst hit for flooding. I don't think it's flood once since they implemented their flooding defence plan a few years ago. They raised the levees and I'm not sure if they did anything else. The farm land around still gets flooded from time to time, but the town itself is grand.

I have no idea if these systems are cost effective, but they most certainly can and do work when done right.

BattleCorp

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

Carlow town used to be one of the worst hit for flooding. I don't think it's flood once since they implemented their flooding defence plan a few years ago. They raised the levees and I'm not sure if they did anything else. The farm land around still gets flooded from time to time, but the town itself is grand.

I have no idea if these systems are cost effective, but they most certainly can and do work when done right.

Flood defences work for the areas that they are around but they push the problem further downriver.

Tullow in County Carlow often flooded but the council recently built flood defences and they held up pretty well. Downriver didn't fare so well, ask the people of Enniscorthy, or Venniscorthy as it is known now.

Austria!

ScumLord wrote: »

That's hilarious. I would have thought the British navy played a bigger part in the devastation of forests on the British isles. They literally striped the islands bare to build their ships and conquer the world. The EU got to the party far to late to be to blamed for the deforestation in the British isles.

Fine, blame them for the lack of reforestation then. After you splitting hairs or do you think the article is wrong about how to stop floods?

Spanish Eyes

Aggregating small fields into massive agricultural holdings, burying ditches and run off, chopping down trees to consolidate fields. There is a lot that can be done on the agricultural front, but the policy now seems to be the bigger the field the better. It is not helping matters I would guess.

Anyway, did anyone see the pics from Mallow? the town field was inundated, but it was meant to be as it is a proper flood plain, and the houses were spared. That is good thinking there.

ScumLord

Austria! wrote: »

Fine, blame them for the lack of reforestation then. After you splitting hairs or do you think the article is wrong about how to stop floods?

It's the fact they lay the blame at the feet of the EU, as if we don't do most the damage ourselves at a local level. I know one area that floods because the guy that owns the land won't let the council do any work to fix the problem. He's the worst affected by floods when they happen but all his neighbours get flooded too. People like that deserve every bit of damage their property receives.

I still see trees getting cut down for seemingly no other reason than they're there. We can't blame the EU for our own problems.

Spanish Eyes

ScumLord wrote: »

It's the fact they lay the blame at the feet of the EU, as if we don't do most the damage ourselves at a local level. I know one area that floods because the guy that owns the land won't let the council do any work to fix the problem. He's the worst affected by floods when they happen but all his neighbours get flooded too. People like that deserve every bit of damage their property receives.

I still see trees getting cut down for seemingly no other reason than they're there. We can't blame the EU for our own problems.

Surely the common good should prevail in those circumstances? What I mean is, the person who is preventing good flood control should be sanctioned, like a CPO and be ordered to do it on pain of arrest and prison.

That may sound drastic, but surely one person should not be the cause of many others' woes.

Tiddlypeeps

BattleCorp wrote: »

Flood defences work for the areas that they are around but they push the problem further downriver.

Tullow in County Carlow often flooded but the council recently built flood defences and they held up pretty well. Downriver didn't fare so well, ask the people of Enniscorthy.

Isn't Enniscorthy one of those towns that's always flooding? A quick google search turns up news articles for flooding there every year bar 2012 since 2010 (which was as far back as I was bothered looking). This is probably the worst year for them for flooding but it's also the worst rainfall the area has seen in recent years by a significant margin. http://www.met.ie/climate/monthly-data.asp?Num=375

Tullow is significantly upstream of Enniscorty, I would be very suprised if the Slaney hadn't managed to shed it's excess load caused by the Tullow defences into farmland along the way long before reaching Enniscorty. I could be wrong, it's possible it has high banks all the way from Tullow to Enniscorty, but I'd be surprised.

You could be right and I could easily be missing something, but I can see zero evidence to suggest what you say is true.

ScumLord

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Surely the common good should prevail in those circumstances? What I mean is, the person who is preventing good flood control should be sanctioned, like a CPO and be ordered to do it on pain of arrest and prison.

That may sound drastic, but surely one person should not be the cause of many others' woes.

Private land, he can do what he likes.

Spanish Eyes

ScumLord wrote: »

Private land, he can do what he likes.

Very selfish of that landowner.

I really hope those neighbours affected by his stubborn and selfish attitude can claim off HIS insurance for the damage he causes.

Austria!

ScumLord wrote: »

It's the fact they lay the blame at the feet of the EU, as if we don't do most the damage ourselves at a local level. I know one area that floods because the guy that owns the land won't let the council do any work to fix the problem. He's the worst affected by floods when they happen but all his neighbours get flooded too. People like that deserve every bit of damage their property receives.

I still see trees getting cut down for seemingly no other reason than they're there. We can't blame the EU for our own problems.

Do you think the subsidies highlighted in the article which give farmers financial incentive to remove trees have any real affect on the amount of trees?

I doubt he's saying it's the only reason, but he has written several articles about floods, with references. I trust him to know what he's talking about.

MadsL

ScumLord wrote: »

Private land, he can do what he likes.

That's not strictly true now is it?

Although it seems to be a common mentality.

Spanish Eyes

MadsL wrote: »

That's not strictly true now is it?

Although it seems to be a common mentality.

Can you expand on that? I initially posted that surely the common good should prevail.

I really thought it would, private land or not. Thanks.

ScumLord

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Very selfish of that landowner.

I really hope those neighbours affected by his stubborn and selfish attitude can claim off HIS insurance for the damage he causes.

I very much doubt he has any insurance. But the countryside is littered with people like that.

Austria! wrote: »

Do you think the subsidies highlighted in the article which give farmers financial incentive to remove trees have any real affect on the amount of trees?

Nobody should be incentivised to remove trees. But the damage was done a long time ago and compounded year on year by private individuals. To pick on one EU subsidy and say it's to blame for all flooding is just OTT.

The problem with most European countries is that a lot of land is privately owned. It's not like in the states where they can release a load of wolves into yellowstone park and allow nature to take it's course in finding a balance again. The article suggests releasing beavers, but if a farmer finds one of them flooding his land he'll kill the beaver rather than just accept he's not going to make any money this year.

BattleCorp

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

Isn't Enniscorthy one of those towns that's always flooding? A quick google search turns up news articles for flooding there every year bar 2012 since 2010 (which was as far back as I was bothered looking). This is probably the worst year for them for flooding but it's also the worst rainfall the area has seen in recent years by a significant margin. http://www.met.ie/climate/monthly-data.asp?Num=375

Tullow is significantly upstream of Enniscorty, I would be very suprised if the Slaney hadn't managed to shed it's excess load caused by the Tullow defences into farmland along the way long before reaching Enniscorty. I could be wrong, it's possible it has high banks all the way from Tullow to Enniscorty, but I'd be surprised.

Fair enough, I can't blame Tullow's flood defences for the flood in Enniscorthy but it is logical that if water can't flood Tullow because of the flood defences, it has to be pushed further downriver. And a greater volume of water downriver would increase the likelihood of flooding.

twowheelsonly

BattleCorp wrote: »

Would the EU allow large scale dredging of the rivers? Impact on fish/wildlife etc.?

While flood defenses are good, even with an unlimited budget, we can't protect everywhere.

ScumLord wrote: »

How is dredging going to affect all the wildlife living in the river though?

That's the trouble - it will impact on wildlife, but so does flooding. There'd have to be some collateral damage but so be it. It would mostly regenerate/repopulate very quickly in this country.

Re Dredging - It should start at the mouth of the river (or close to a recognised floodplain) and work backwards so that the water always has somewhere to run to without backing up

BattleCorp

twowheelsonly wrote: »

That's the trouble - it will impact on wildlife, but so does flooding. There'd have to be some collateral damage but so be it. It would mostly regenerate/repopulate very quickly in this country.

The salmon population is hanging in by a thread. I doubt they'd regenerate/repopulate very quickly.

MadsL

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Can you expand on that? I initially posted that surely the common good should prevail.

I really thought it would, private land or not. Thanks.

The thought is "my land, I can do what I want with it"

The reality is that freedom is curtailed by Planning and Development laws and as you have pointed out by a sense of the common good - ecosystems do not recognise land boundaries.

Tiddlypeeps

BattleCorp wrote: »

Fair enough, I can't blame Tullow's flood defences for the flood in Enniscorthy but it is logical that if water can't flood Tullow because of the flood defences, it has to be pushed further downriver. And a greater volume of water downriver would increase the likelihood of flooding.

This is true, but in most cases that extra water should end up in fields and other rural land down river. There is no way they don't take this into consideration when implementing any flood defences. If it's obviously going to cause worse flood damage down stream then that area would need to be addressed first.

It's much easier to provide emergency services to a few flooded rural dwellings and some farm land then it is to provide those services for potentially hundreds of people in towns. Sucks for the people that are still effected, but it can be a much better scenario over all when done right.

ForestFire

No connection to the website below, but after a quick search found this:-

http://www.irishfloodbarriers.ie/main-page_1.html

Why do business and homes in known flood areas not install these?

foggy_lad

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

A big massive Chinese style reservour in the centre of the country might not be a bad idea, look for least populated area and use that.

Leitrim?

RobbingBandit wrote: »

Dam the lot of them...

The rivers that is

Isn't that what caused much of the flooding?

jmayo wrote: »

Carrick on Shannon is great example of this stupidity.
The council allowed housing development/shops along the river on road to Sligo, in an area that anyone with a memory or an ounce of cop on could easily deduce was liable to flood.

Carlow County Council allowed apartment developments on the banks of the Barrow in areas known to flood almost yearly, must have been some big moneybags around to get those decisions to go the right way?

jmayo wrote: »

I think that is what happened further down the Barrow this year ?
Carlow had works carried out and shoved the problem further down river.
Graiguenamanagh got it really bad this year.

much of the flooding is due to roads/motorways/developments etc interfering with underground aquifers and the water table so water that once drained away evenly throughout an area now gets directed to other areas and overloads the natural drainage causing ground saturation and floods.

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

Carlow town used to be one of the worst hit for flooding. I don't think it's flood once since they implemented their flooding defence plan a few years ago. They raised the levees and I'm not sure if they did anything else. The farm land around still gets flooded from time to time, but the town itself is grand.

I have no idea if these systems are cost effective, but they most certainly can and do work when done right.

The river was dredged and other flood water management systems put in place.

The Council still have the Graigue "Boards" in storage in case they are needed again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YX1VNnAiPQ

foggy_lad

twowheelsonly wrote: »

That's the trouble - it will impact on wildlife, but so does flooding. There'd have to be some collateral damage but so be it. It would mostly regenerate/repopulate very quickly in this country.

Re Dredging - It should start at the mouth of the river (or close to a recognised floodplain) and work backwards so that the water always has somewhere to run to without backing up

Dredging at the wrong time can wipe out not just life in the river but also much of the surrounding ecosystems that rely on the river for survival. It is a very delicate balance that if upset can take dozens of years to fully recover.

ScumLord

MadsL wrote: »

The thought is "my land, I can do what I want with it"

The reality is that freedom is curtailed by Planning and Development laws and as you have pointed out by a sense of the common good - ecosystems do not recognise land boundaries.

This has been going on for years. Maybe the councils have the power to just force the work on him and they're just not bothering. It's a small group of houses out the country so it's easy to ignore them.

jmayo

MadsL wrote: »

Funny how the one organisation who has repeatedly pointed out the problems with planning and development in Ireland that lead to flooding is the one that is most hated.

Oh you silly An Taisce!!

This would be the organisation that also does not want people to build on hills which to me would seem like sensible place to build to avoid floods.

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Aggregating small fields into massive agricultural holdings, burying ditches and run off, chopping down trees to consolidate fields. There is a lot that can be done on the agricultural front, but the policy now seems to be the bigger the field the better. It is not helping matters I would guess.

WTF.
I think you are getting wires crossed.
An issue would be the reclaimation of land that was once marsh and boggy. This land now drains into local rivers and streams both adding to their water levels and at the same time lessening the amount of land available for soakage.
Trees and hedgerows would not absorb all the water.
Granted they would prevent subsidence and land slippage.

People also seem to be forgetting that our climate has changed and is changing.
We now have what were once summer flies in circulation in winter, flowers coming into bloom in winter, experienced temps of 14 degrees at night in mid December.
How many annual days frost do we now get ?
The climate is getting milder and wetter.

No matter if there was little development on flood plains over the last few decades, we would have had serious problems due to the level of rain experienced over the last odd month.

I think we will have to face it, we will need to build flood defenses around a fair few major towns, consign areas as floodable, dredge/drain a lot of our rivers, and basically give up on some properties/developments as un-protectable.

Akrasia

I don't know why ever one is in favour of speeding up the flow of our rivers through dredging and other measures to clear obstacles from the rivers.

Fast flowing rivers rip apart their own banks and destroy bridges and anything else in their path when we have extreme rainfall events.

We should be slowing down the rivers, not speeding them up

How should this be done?

Create ox bow lakes in rural parts of the river on areas suitable to become flood plains. Divert the course of the river in a u shape with high banks to slow down fast flowing water while also providing adfitional wildlife habitats and tourist amenities.

Plant more vegitation and trees in the hills and mountains to slow down runoff to the rivers and lakes

Pay farmers to allow use of their land as flood plains.

We can't move the towns, but we can move the rivers. Engineering the flow and putting the flood water where it can fertilise the soil of farmland instead of contaminating everything with sewage and chemicals which is what happens when urban areas get over-run

MadsL

jmayo wrote: »

This would be the organisation that also does not want people to build on hills which to me would seem like sensible place to build to avoid floods.

And where are you getting that gem of misinformation from?

MadsL

foggy_lad wrote: »

Dredging at the wrong time can wipe out not just life in the river but also much of the surrounding ecosystems that rely on the river for survival. It is a very delicate balance that if upset can take dozens of years to fully recover.

http://charlesrangeleywilson.com/2015/12/19/why-dredging-makes-flooding-worse/

Spanish Eyes

Climate change does not seem to bring water to drought filled areas of the world. Funny that?

Summer is still hot and dry in Brisbane in our Winter. Same for the Canaries, same for South Africa etc. etc.

Funny that Western Isles like Ireland and Britain are flooded ad infinitum lately. Well I will tell you that it certainly has something to do with building on flood plains.

That is the reality, and brown envelopes caused it. Rain and torrential rain has always been a feature of this country and Britain, but there are other factors that are now causing houses to flood, and it ain't global warming or climate change. IMV.

BattleCorp

MadsL wrote: »

And where are you getting that gem of misinformation from?

Mads, I had woeful hassle from the planners when I wanted to build my house. They gave out because the site was "elevated". Some planners are dead against you building on a hill in case it spoils the view of the countryside.

I got so much crap from them, I didn't bother building the house.

MadsL

BattleCorp wrote: »

Mads, I had woeful hassle from the planners when I wanted to build my house. They gave out because the site was "elevated". Some planners are dead against you building on a hill in case it spoils the view of the countryside.

I got so much crap from them, I didn't bother building the house.

Planners ≠ An Taisce.

Do I have to explain this?

Samaris

colossus-x wrote: »

Relocate all towns away from major rivers. Towns by rivers is a throwback to the an era when traders travelled by boat/river and congregated by a port or whatever. If we didn't build all our towns around them then we wouldn't be suffering so much.

It'd probably be cheaper to relocate all the rivers away from towns!

Corpus Twisty

Plumb the rivers into the hills and the hills into the rivers - that way all the water stays up high and viola- no more flooding.

Failing that, feck off over to Holland and go "Here, lads, what should we do?" and write them a big cheque for helping to do it.

MadsL

Corpus Twisty wrote: »

Failing that, feck off over to Holland and go "Here, lads, what should we do?" and write them a big cheque for helping to do it.

Probably part of the conversation would be "What the hell are you doing with your bogs you crazy Irish peoples"

Spanish Eyes

Flooding is not a feature in Holland for example.

They are metres below sea level. I know they have built defences and all that, but honestly, how come their rivers do not cause floods like we have seen lately?

http://www.mapsofworld.com/netherlands/netherlands-river-map.html

twinytwo

tigerboon wrote: »

The simplest defence would be a soil bank along both sides. The rivers in this country are never dredged. Buy a handful of dredgers, dredge the Shannon and lower the bed by a meter or two, use the dredged material to build up the banks by a meter or two, that's up to four meters extra capacity in the river channel. To handle extreme events, build an overflow channel/pipe direct to the sea/lakes. Cheaper than moving towns

Most cant be dredged by law.

I remember my mother telling me that there was an old flood wall in dublin somewhere that must have been over 100 years old 8ft high and built by hand.

Now the council decides lets put in a new wall.. they build it 6 ft high as the water had never gone above 5 ft in living memory... 2 years later the river went over the top of the wall.

The fact that they wouldnt have built the wall 8ft high unless they had too in the first place never crossed the mind of these people..

These are the kind of idiots you are dealing with

Corpus Twisty

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Flooding is not a feature in Holland for example.

They are metres below sea level. I know they have built defences and all that, but honestly, how come their rivers do not cause floods like we have seen lately?

http://www.mapsofworld.com/netherlands/netherlands-river-map.html

Someone once mentioned that if the Dutch had Ireland, they'd feed the world and if the Irish had Holland, we'd drown..

Akrasia

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Flooding is not a feature in Holland for example.

They are metres below sea level. I know they have built defences and all that, but honestly, how come their rivers do not cause floods like we have seen lately?

http://www.mapsofworld.com/netherlands/netherlands-river-map.html

Holland is a very different topology to Ireland. It's not very hilly