how to solve flood crisis

Corpus Twisty

Akrasia wrote: »

Holland is a very different topology to Ireland. It's not very hilly

Our hilly bits don't flood much...we could ask them how they manage the flat bits and work from there....

Bulbous Salutation

Corpus Twisty wrote: »

Our hilly bits don't flood much...we could ask them how they manage the flat bits and work from there....

Oh dear. In your keenness to appear smart you end up looking rather stupid.

Stinicker

Get rid of Ardnacrusha which is holding back the Shannon and flooding half the country, let the river drain freely into the ocean. Ardnacrusha is the single biggest cause of the flooding in the Shannon region.

Eugene Norman

Corpus Twisty wrote: »

Someone once mentioned that if the Dutch had Ireland, they'd feed the world and if the Irish had Holland, we'd drown..

If someone said that about Nigerians they would get a permaban.

We don't have much to learn from the Dutch as they have sea defences not river defences. And it's flat. Here the mountain rivers flowing into the low land cause or exacerbate the issue.

Fact is it was a very wet December. Ireland coped better than northern England. The defences we built largely worked. Not every hamlet can be protected.

Eugene Norman

Corpus Twisty wrote: »

Our hilly bits don't flood much...we could ask them how they manage the flat bits and work from there....

Christ.

Corpus Twisty

Bulbous Salutation wrote: »

Oh dear. In your keenness to appear smart you end up looking rather stupid.

Doubtful. In the rush to dismiss a suggestion, you overlooked the simple fact that the Dutch are experts in handling water. We aren't. There are Dutch pumps working away draining flooded areas in the UK for example. Hilly/flat/rocky/whatever, water and its overabundance at times has to be managed. We fail badly in that task, the Dutch are experts at it. So go ask the Dutch, and don't worry about your hills. The hills will be grand.

Corpus Twisty

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Christ.

Yeah. Whatever. We need to manage our low-lying, flood prone areas. Hill-run off, no hill run-off, what difference does it make? The issue is flooding of low-lying areas. You work away seeking a cause, I'd say the people who are flooded would prefer if someone spent time finding a solution.

Eugene Norman

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Climate change does not seem to bring water to drought filled areas of the world. Funny that?

Summer is still hot and dry in Brisbane in our Winter. Same for the Canaries, same for South Africa etc. etc.

Funny that Western Isles like Ireland and Britain are flooded ad infinitum lately. Well I will tell you that it certainly has something to do with building on flood plains.

That is the reality, and brown envelopes caused it. Rain and torrential rain has always been a feature of this country and Britain, but there are other factors that are now causing houses to flood, and it ain't global warming or climate change. IMV.

The stupid is strong in this thread. The EL Nino as well as climate change exacerbate climate differences across the globe. Of course Brisbane is hot and dry in the summer. It's a desert. Are you refuting a strawman argument of your own devising or did you read somewhere that climate change (or El Niño) brings rain everywhere? Because if you did try linking to that page so we can all get a laugh.

Mostly the problem was that this was an extremely wet December. There's only so much that can be done. Yes people shouldn't build on flood plains but in extremely wet events a previously unflooded plain can flood.

Eugene Norman

Corpus Twisty wrote: »

Doubtful. In the rush to dismiss a suggestion, you overlooked the simple fact that the Dutch are experts in handling water. We aren't. There are Dutch pumps working away draining flooded areas in the UK for example. Hilly/flat/rocky/whatever, water and its overabundance at times has to be managed. We fail badly in that task, the Dutch are experts at it. So go ask the Dutch, and don't worry about your hills. The hills will be grand.

You really don't understand why flooding would be more likely in hilly countries, right. Try not to back track. Sea defences are not the same as river defences.

Eugene Norman

Corpus Twisty wrote: »

Yeah. Whatever. We need to manage our low-lying, flood prone areas. Hill-run off, no hill run-off, what difference does it make? The issue is flooding of low-lying areas. You work away seeking a cause, I'd say the people who are flooded would prefer if someone spent time finding a solution.

There's no solution to events that happen once a century (if that) that isn't prohibitive ( except agreeing with an tasice that once off building should be banned, which is politically impossible).

Of course climate change might exacerbate the issue but a cheaper solution to protecting every house in a flood plain is not to build in flood plains.

Corpus Twisty

Eugene Norman wrote: »

You really don't understand why flooding would be more likely in hilly countries, right. Try not to back track. Sea defences are not the same as river defences.

The Dutch are hired across the world to advise on and construct flood defences. They are recognized experts. The also hire out some of the worlds largest pumps and pumping systems. The pumps we deploy are pitiful and ineffectual. If we even had the ability to deploy hundreds of heavy-duty pumps to threatened areas, as opposed to individual households bipping away with tiny 5hp Honda pumps desperatly trying to keep their properties dry, we might have a start.

The cost of even several thousand pumps would be minimal compared to the cost of the damage caused by flooding. But you fire ahead hand-wringing and looking for causes. I'd prefer to suggest even vaguely shyte remedies. A shyte remedy is at least a start on the way to a better one.

Dr. Mantis Toboggan

Eugene Norman wrote: »

There's no solution to events that happen once a century (if that) that isn't prohibitive ( except agreeing with an tasice that once off building should be banned, which is politically impossible).
.

True that.

Unfortunately it doesn't deny someone the chance to spoof on the internet like they know everything there is to know about flooding though.

Keyboard experts. :rolleyes:

Corpus Twisty

Dr. Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

True that.

Unfortunately it doesn't deny someone the chance to spoof on the internet like they know everything there is to know about flooding though.

Keyboard experts. :rolleyes:

Didn't think the Dutch were spoofers, Manty, but you learn something new every day...well I do, you, possibly not so much, given your massive intelligence. Oh how I missed you and your bon-mots. You keeping well?

4zn76tysfajdxp

Comparing Ireland to The Netherlands is laughable. The Netherlands' highest point is like 300 metres for god's sake. It's like a gigantic pool table. :rolleyes:

Bulbous Salutation

Brenda Grumpy Scholar wrote: »

Comparing Ireland to The Netherlands is laughable. The Netherlands' highest point is like 300 metres for god's sake. It's like a gigantic pool table. :rolleyes:

Completely the same scenario though. Seems lots of big pumps is the answer.

gctest50

Eugene Norman wrote: »

..........
We don't have much to learn from the Dutch as they have sea defences not river defences. And it's flat. Here the mountain rivers flowing into the low land cause or exacerbate the issue. .........

Development of water management, 1000-1800
The earliest inhabitants of the river area between the branches of the lower Rhine and the Maas Rivers settled elevated former river channels called creek ridges (stroomrug). These old river channels are separated by the lower laying areas called “komgronden” (roughly translated: bowl-grounds) or backswamps, which flooded during the winter but were used for grazing during the summer season. This situation lasted until about the 10th century when the population started to increase more rapidly and more agricultural land was needed. This was during the climate optimum, a period of more benign weather and fewer floods. As a result of the population pressure and encouraged by fewer floods, lands away from the rivers were drained and cultivated, which led to subsidence of the land and thus making it more prone to flooding. In response to this people started to protect themselves from the river floods by constructing levies running away from the river at right angles in order to deflect floodwater coming down the river. These so called “zijwenden” or side dikes were later connected with levies parallel of the river, the so called “achterwende” or rear dike which prevented water from flowing into the lower laying “komgronden”.

The next stage in the fight against river flooding was the construction of dikes in the 12th and 13th centuries. The dikes were constructed away from the river in order to create a foreland (uiterwaarden) that acted as a buffer to store floodwaters and were used as a water meadow during the summer months.

Canterelle

Could u have pumps at specific points that activate when a river is too high, and have designated flood worthy reservoirs to hold water? Am sure it would involve huge expense, compulsory purchasing of land (flood plain land) but if dredging is not a goer...

4zn76tysfajdxp

Bulbous Salutation wrote: »

Completely the same scenario though. Seems lots of big pumps is the answer.

Who's saying all this? An expert engineer on top of his field? Or some spoofer on the internet talking complete tarmac?

Pintman Paddy Losty

Bulbous Salutation wrote: »

Completely the same scenario though. Seems lots of big pumps is the answer.

Thats the kind of solutions you're likely to hear off barstool experts and lads who do their business out of the window of a hiace van. Thankfully the government doesn't put much stock into the opinions of those type of bluffers and chances.

TrueIt

artanevilla wrote: »

Air drop large sponges into affected areas.

It is funny that you say that. The bogs use to act like a sponge until the government dug up a lot of the peat

gctest50

TrueIt wrote: »

It is funny that you say that. The bogs use to act like a sponge until the government dug up a lot of the peat

they need to dig out the rest of the smelly useless things - can always fill them with nice stuff from digging out the rivers a bit

Corpus Twisty

Brenda Grumpy Scholar wrote: »

Who's saying all this? An expert engineer on top of his field? Or some spoofer on the internet talking complete tarmac?

Odd then that the chap in athlone - the one just on the news there- from the county council, had only one concern - that the pump they were operating kept going....as he said(and he's the one fighting the floods, not yakking on the internet)"we're ok as long as the pump stays going, but if it fails, this area will be flooded within 20 minutes -we just hope the pump stays running".

But I guess he's just another spoofer, eh Froda? Lol, you're good for a giggle son.

KwackerJack

Sam Kade wrote: »

You mean cover the country in trees again, maybe we should also get people out of the country and restock it with brown bears and wolves like it used to be

Exactly which is now impossible so we only have ourselves to blame. But my point is that we continue to do this yet plan on spending millions on flood defences??

Only to go build a massive housing estate and the year after the auld boys in the pub will be saying bejasus never seen that part of town flood before..........really I wonder why?

We are just going around in circles

4zn76tysfajdxp

Corpus Twisty wrote: »

Odd then that the chap in athlone - the one just on the news there- from the county council, had only one concern - that the pump they were operating kept going....as he said(and he's the one fighting the floods, not yakking on the internet)"we're ok as long as the pump stays going, but if it fails, this area will be flooded within 20 minutes -we just hope the pump stays running".

But I guess he's just another spoofer, eh Froda? Lol, you're good for a giggle son.

You seem to be taking this a bit personally.

Call them up and offer your expert advice. Better still, pretend you're Dutch in case they might turn out to be one of those idiots who think everyone from The Netherlands is an expert on flooding.

"Ah, Corpus Van Twisty! Great to hear from you, unlike all the spoofers around here."

Eugene Norman

Corpus Twisty wrote: »

Odd then that the chap in athlone - the one just on the news there- from the county council, had only one concern - that the pump they were operating kept going....as he said(and he's the one fighting the floods, not yakking on the internet)"we're ok as long as the pump stays going, but if it fails, this area will be flooded within 20 minutes -we just hope the pump stays running".

But I guess he's just another spoofer, eh Froda? Lol, you're good for a giggle son.

Ireland has pumps. Clonmel's defences depend on a wall and floods. We can't put pumps in every potential flood plain.

Bulbous Salutation

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Ireland has pumps. Clonmel's defences depend on a wall and floods. We can't put pumps in every potential flood plain.

Dr. Corpus Twisty PhD (University of Life: School of Hard Knocks) has dismissed exceptional rainfall, the cutting away of bogs, the use of locks on the Shannon, modern agriculture, building house on flood plains and a myriad of other factors as being contributory factors to the flood crisis.

Lots of pumps and a bit of hard graft is the sorting of it.

quarefarmers

Farmers should stop dumping shoite in the rivers,

Canterelle

Seriously though, we have this situation mostly of our own making. Expenditure on the right infrastructure is now needed. We get short droughts too, at times. Why could we not invest in flood channeling systems that could help out when the water bans come?

Canterelle

Seriously though, we have this situation mostly of our own making. Expenditure on the right infrastructure is now needed. We get short droughts too, at times. Why could we not invest in flood channeling systems that could help out when the water bans come?

tomwaterford

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Ireland has pumps. Clonmel's defences depend on a wall and floods. We can't put pumps in every potential flood plain.

Why not??

Put pumps where you can't afford proper flood defenses until you can (knowing ireland it'll be forever though).....buy up the more isolated homes/supply them with sandbags....people have to help themselves to a certain extent



And they might actually get around to dredging the Shannon after 90 odd years like.....either way though no matter what was done....with the rain that fell...nothing would've stopped it

laugh

Trees:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/uk-flooding-how-a-yorkshire-flood-blackspot-worked-with-nature-to-stay-dry-a6794286.html

Corpus Twisty

Brenda Grumpy Scholar wrote: »

You seem to be taking this a bit personally.

Call them up and offer your expert advice. Better still, pretend you're Dutch in case they might turn out to be one of those idiots who think everyone from The Netherlands is an expert on flooding.

"Ah, Corpus Van Twisty! Great to hear from you, unlike all the spoofers around here."

What an odd rant! I claimed no expertise, Froda, I suggested that perhaps asking the Dutch for advice might be an idea. No more, no less. Why would I have expertise in flooding? Never been flooded here, luckily. Perhaps you ought to unwind the spring a little? You appear tense.

topmanamillion

Are there any engineering reports on dredging the shannon? Is it even viable or is it another local anecdote that has grown legs?
From what I've read it may help in parts and in other parts it can't be done because of wildlife and environmental factors.

ressem

tomwaterford wrote: »

Why not??

Put pumps where you can't afford proper flood defenses until you can (knowing ireland it'll be forever though).....buy up the more isolated homes/supply them with sandbags....people have to help themselves to a certain extent



And they might actually get around to dredging the Shannon after 90 odd years like.....either way though no matter what was done....with the rain that fell...nothing would've stopped it

Limerick is different, but dredging the Shannon possibly wouldn't do much for the midlands flooding. The river just has a slight fall in altitude until it gets to Ardnacrusha, and is normally shallow.

Looking at the map of Athlone
http://shannoncframstudy.ie/interactive/shannon_upperlower/pdfs/N10/N10_Extent_Map14.pdf
http://shannoncframstudy.ie/interactive/shannon_upperlower.aspx

suggests that some of Athlone has 1/10 chance annually of flooding.
Similar for Ballinasloe, even though they did some heavy work to speed the flow of water on the channels further from the town.

MadsL

TrueIt wrote: »

It is funny that you say that. The bogs use to act like a sponge until the government dug up a lot of the peat

The government aren't the only ones digging them up...

The climate change equation is pretty simple, dig up carbon sinks that absorb C02 emissions and burn them releasing more CO2. Could stop that for a start.

Or just handwring about flooding on AH, argue about the Dutch and then advocate dredging to make the rivers run faster.

Irish Steve

Solution to some flooding issues.

Stop the sho1te.

What sho1te?

The sho1te that gets dumped in the ditches and the rivers and all over the place by the gobsh1tes that are too tight fisted to pay to get their sho1te taken away in the bins.

The other option would be to go back to the system where the local authorities collect all the Sho1te, and put the related charges on to the local property tax, so that it's no longer an "option".

We live in an urban area, but we've been flooded here on several occasions by room size lumps of carpet, double quilts, discarded Christmas trees, leylandii prunings, black sacks of grass cuttings, and black sacks of domestic waste, all of which have at one time or another ended up on a grid that "protects" a pipe on a stream close to us, when the grid blocks, the water level rises, rapidly, and sometimes, it takes a lot of people and or machines to move the junk, because of the force of water holding it on the grid.

one gobsho1te can very easily flood 50 or 100 houses, but part of the problem is the local authorities, who have blatantly and visibly failed to provide proper and appropriate management of the environment in a lot of urban areas, and the result is many places where what were safe and non threatening ditches have been transformed into dangerous and life threatening culverts and open drains by not being properly designed to ensure that they remain safe when development of the area takes place.

jmayo

Akrasia wrote: »

I don't know why ever one is in favour of speeding up the flow of our rivers through dredging and other measures to clear obstacles from the rivers.

Fast flowing rivers rip apart their own banks and destroy bridges and anything else in their path when we have extreme rainfall events.

We should be slowing down the rivers, not speeding them up

How should this be done?

Create ox bow lakes in rural parts of the river on areas suitable to become flood plains. Divert the course of the river in a u shape with high banks to slow down fast flowing water while also providing adfitional wildlife habitats and tourist amenities.

Take a look at the history of the Mississippi and it's major floods.
I think 1993 may be the one I am thinking of.
The fact that huge levies were built in certain areas to protect towns and to manage the river meant when a burst came it was ten times worse.
Of course the likes of James Scott didn't help. :rolleyes:
To create your ox bow lakes and change river direction would need levies and dams to divert the course of the river.

Redirecting rivers has been tried and it has often proven that it is in vain or very costly since rivers will try and revert to a natural course.
Check out some efforts in other countries and see some surprising results.

I think ultimately for the Shannon it will be a combination of spillsways allowing flooding into certain sections as you advise, revetments to strengthen banks in areas where there has been dredging, levies to protect some towns like Athlone and abandonment of some areas like parts of Carrick on Shannon as being unprotectable.

Akrasia wrote: »

Plant more vegitation and trees in the hills and mountains to slow down runoff to the rivers and lakes

We have had issues with this from environmentalists demanding only certain kinds of trees or no trees are used.
BTW what major hills and mountains really drain into the Shannon.
Yep some in Leitrim, then a lot of very flat land, until down into Clare, Tipperary.
The major mountains in this country drain nowhere near the Shannon and it is the one with worst flooding,

I do agree trees and vegetation should be allowed and protected on mountains to protect against erosion and landslides but that is different argument.

MadsL wrote: »

And where are you getting that gem of misinformation from?

People in various counties have been prevented from building because their property may disturb "the visual amenity of an area".
Lots of planners and objectors would rather someone builds in a hole, which more than likely is more prone to flooding, than on a hillside which is less likely to flooding.
There needs to be a happy medium.

jmayo

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Climate change does not seem to bring water to drought filled areas of the world. Funny that?

No but it does bring longer more numerous droughts, desertification, more numerous bush fires, etc.

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Summer is still hot and dry in Brisbane in our Winter.

Ehh that is because there are in the southern hemisphere and it is their summer.
Jaysus H C on a bike.

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Same for the Canaries, same for South Africa etc. etc.

Ehh why not invest in a globe and do us all a favour ?

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Funny that Western Isles like Ireland and Britain are flooded ad infinitum lately. Well I will tell you that it certainly has something to do with building on flood plains.

That is the reality, and brown envelopes caused it. Rain and torrential rain has always been a feature of this country and Britain, but there are other factors that are now causing houses to flood, and it ain't global warming or climate change. IMV.

Yeah building on flood plains caused all those depressions out in the Atlantic, all the fooking rain in our wettest December on record.

The only legitimate point you do have is that planning was subverted, often by dodgy deals, and property build in areas liable to flooding should never have been built.
And yes these are now adding to the number of properties being flooded.

Then again the streets in Bandon, Enniscorthy, York, etc have been there for generations and are also being flooded.

ScumLord

jmayo wrote: »

Redirecting rivers has been tried and it has often proven that it is in vain or very costly since rivers will try and revert to a natural course.
Check out some efforts in other countries and see some surprising results.

I don't have to look overseas, the local river was redirected hundreds of years ago by the Brits.

Redirecting rivers is part and parcel of building hydroelectric dams and canals. Humans have been redirecting rivers for millennia, The ancient Chinese did it, the ancient egyptians did it, the romans did it and just about every major civilization has attempted flooding defences.

Rivers will constantly change their course over centuries, the flow can be managed but it does require constant management. Maybe part of the problem here is the rivers were redirected by the Brits a long time ago and when we took over we just assumed the rivers would take care of themselves and didn't bother with the management anymore.

Another option would be to lay down the e-penises of some of the spoofers on here around the danger areas, would take a flood of biblical proportions to breach a defence like that.

iguana

topmanamillion wrote: »

Do not build on flood plains.
5 years minimum jail sentence for any local authority member that ignores engineering reports.

I live by the Shannon (near the top of a very, very high hill) and there is a field along the riverpath that is currently under a couple of feet of water yet has planning permission for a new estate of houses due to be built in the spring. It's absolutely insane. Slightly further back are numerous commercial building (many empty due to over-building) all built on former flood plains.

There are photographs all over my facebook feed this week of buildings in the University of Limerick that are surrounded by water. All built on floodplains and were subject to ongoing protest by locals 10-13 years ago when they were given planning permission as environmental impact studies made it clear that they would either flood. Or if flood defenses were built to protect them, cause flooding further downstream in areas that hadn't previously flooded. Yet when those further down areas did flood for the first time two years ago the locals there have mainly blamed the ESB who as far as I can make out bear little to no responsibility for the flooding.

c_man

If we freeze the flood waters then it'll be a simple job to crack up the ice, carry it to a place where it won't affect homes/businesses and dump it there. Actually we could just throw it out to sea. What's the problem??

Superhorse

We don't do forward planning at all in this country. What we do very well is brown envelope and pressing the flesh politics. As long as we continue to vote in the same idiots time and again WE are the problem.

Superhorse

cbyrd wrote: »

They're already built.. The reaction now is has to be a solution rather than a blame game/what should have been done.. The damage is done. Time to find a real workable solution.

No we need blame and possible prison sentences as a future deterrent or else we will have what we had after the banking crisis just carrying on as before whilst people get locked up for not paying a TV licence. As long as we as a nation refuse to go after the criminals responsible for allowing building in these areas we are doomed to failure.

Hearing calls for more local control to prevent flooding. People realize it's the county council's who dictate planning for the most part yeah?

wil

The solution to flooding ISNT talk about it, talk it away, talk until fed up, replace with more up to date crisis, remember what it was like when everyone was talking about it, stop talking about it, forget it was even an issue, repeat all above in ever decreasing cycles.

JupiterKid

These floods are becoming increasingly common - IMO it's a sign and consequence of global warming. This past December was the mildest and wettest on record.

I think that areas deemed to be floodplains should be intensively managed and if needs be, abandoned. No house building allowed in these areas and people relocated. This is much easier said then done but countries like the Netherlands which is 40% below sea level seem to manage just fine.

Proper planning policy should restrict development in floodplains and flood defence works in vulnerable areas like Athlone and other towns and villages located along rivers.

Ally Dick

Saw that oul wan from south Galway telling Miriam that there was no way she would agree to relocation, and that it was the government's job to look after her and protect her from flooding. Eh, I don't really agree. She might have to move if it is too costly to keep the water away from her

flutered

zerks wrote: »

We have the president visiting Enniscorthy,yep-a 4 foot tall man is going to help.:rolleyes:

plus cutting the flood defence grant to the opw in this years budget by 20% has been a massive help, i did not check out the last few, i assume they are no different

flutered

tigerboon wrote: »

The simplest defence would be a soil bank along both sides. The rivers in this country are never dredged. Buy a handful of dredgers, dredge the Shannon and lower the bed by a meter or two, use the dredged material to build up the banks by a meter or two, that's up to four meters extra capacity in the river channel. To handle extreme events, build an overflow channel/pipe direct to the sea/lakes. Cheaper than moving towns

but but but landowners are not allower to let the shanon flow into the atlantic, otherwise their eu payments are nobbled