Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi *spoilers from Post 2857*

Arne_Saknussem

Thought Fury Road was a load of overblown bollocks myself. There seems to be a pattern emerging.

JohnFalstaff

The difference between Fury Road and The Last Jedi is like night and day in my book. Fury Road is an example of a filmmaker with an exceptional vision who is in total command of his medium. Miller's mastery of tone, pacing and story are apparent in every frame. Nothing is superfluous. In contrast, The Last Jedi tries to be all things to all men (and women).

You want to see a blockbuster with a subversive subtext and a radical treatment of a franchise's legacy? Watch Fury Road.

pumpkin4life

OUTER. SPACE.

johnny_ultimate

Wibbs wrote: »

I have found when the word "economy" is used in criticism it either means the production ran out of money and/or scope and/or empty space is being bullshtted up as deep and the viewer buys into the latter.

Well, no, that's not even remotely what I mean - it means it has nary a wasted frame or idea.

JohnFalstaff wrote: »

The difference between Fury Road and The Last Jedi is like night and day in my book.

Absolutely, and the only reason I even bring it up is because The Last Jedi at least hinted and occasionally delivered for me what can happen when you take a series in a different direction. Fury Road leaves all in its dust, of course

pumpkin4life

How was Fury Road subversive?

It was a poor man's Mad Max 2, only with a mad looking wan with a shaved head running around the place.

Also, is it just me, but is the idea of a subversive blockbuster bananas? What happened to wanting to watch a great action movie and just leaving it at that? Good guy, guns, the end. Yippy kiy ay.

Complete bum. Give me my Die Hard 1, not this film studies degree pretentious crap lads.

Wibbs

Arne_Saknussem wrote: »

Thought Fury Road was a load of overblown bollocks myself. There seems to be a pattern emerging.

Aye there kinda does I wouldn't call it bollocks myself, but I would agree with overblown to some degree. Miller is loved among a section of the film audience and can do little wrong. They like that kinda thing. Just like another section needs plot points at expected times and explosions. Just a different type of audience really.

JohnFalstaff wrote: »

You want to see a blockbuster with a subversive subtext and a radical treatment of a franchise's legacy? Watch Fury Road.

:translation: bluntly hammer in a "feminist" subtext(that is anything but sub). Check. and make Max himself a supporting character. Check. Ohmigod! Expectations exploded!! So brave. Or something. Or not. It was/is a bit of thing at the moment. In spots anyway. QV Ghostbusters, though it was pure drivel, regardless who was cast. Then again I thought the originals Saturday afternoon hour passers at best(though seems to have been a phenomenon with American audiences. Didn't seem to hold that weight beyond those shores. Like Kiss. Or Saturday Night Live).

Fury Road looked bloody fantastic mind you. I will say I've seen few enough flics of late that were as pure filmmaking as Fury Road. That part of the "roar" I did get alright. The 2001 of road movies. Though best action movie ever made? eh.... Maybe Rambo, First Blood. *joking. Though a masterpiece compared to the sequels.

Wibbs

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Well, no, that's not even remotely what I mean - it means it has nary a wasted frame or idea.

Well its ideas are very thin gruel indeed and it is quite repetitive and the lauded(or maligned by online idiots) women's roles and importance are still transparently adolescent boys ideas of important women and the main character Mad Maxine exhibits near zero growth throughout the flic and the women make repeatedly stupid decisions only to be helped by Mad Max the bloke and the whole affair is little more than a wonderfully shot film length video game level(though again maybe that's more thing these days for a large chunk of the audience hooked on their bleepy games?).

It's an well wrought artifice trying to masquerade as art, while wheeling out the same tired cliches hidden enough to make enough people think it's "important"*. So yep I think again we will agree to disagree and my previous take on it and "economy" in that context remains.



*EG that anyone thought this was an important "feminist" film would make me question their ability to tie their own shoelaces, or suitability to vote.

Sad Professor

I've only seen it once, but based on that one viewing I'd consider The Last Jedi just as idiosyncratic as Fury Road. I re-watched all of Johnson's films earlier in the year and I see no evidence that he was interfered with or was forced to water down his vision. Everything about TLJ from the wild and inelegant tonal shifts to the genre subversion seemed like pure Johnson. If there's a problem with the film I think maybe Johnson is a bit insecure with this kind of material and made it a bit too smart for its own good - too many references, too much self-depreciation, etc.

Whether this is bad thing or not depends on your perspective. Critics love this stuff, but fans hate it because they think they are being made fun of (they are but not in a cruel way). I'm not sure where I stand on it tbh, I need to see the film again. But for the people who thought the post-Spaceballs-esque humour was a problem, you should know that Abrams started it. And it's not like the OT didn't do this stuff too. The sudden shifts might be more extreme, but the tone is awfully close to the Willard Huyck and Gloria Katz scripted antics on the Death Star in ANH. (Huyck and Katz later wrote Temple of Doom which fans hate as well.)

TerrorFirmer

When we look at Rogue One, the one thing that strikes me as an almost terrible waste is that a character like Krennic wasn't used in place of General Hux in the new trilogy. A figure audiences recognise as one not to be messed with nor to be underestimated - very reminiscent of Tarkin and would have served as a good balance to Kylo Ren and kept a strong, but subtle, 'baddie' vein running throughout the franchise.

Hux is another aspect of the new trilogy I intensely dislike - the de facto leader of The First Order yet ridiculed and made light of at every conceivable turn, and himself a ridiculous caricature that plays out like something from Robot Chicken.

Granted, I loved the sarcastic "Do you think we got him?" in TLJ, delivered perfectly.

thegreengoblin

pumpkin4life wrote: »

How was Fury Road subversive?

It was a poor man's Mad Max 2, only with a mad looking wan with a shaved head running around the place.

Also, is it just me, but is the idea of a subversive blockbuster bananas? What happened to wanting to watch a great action movie and just leaving it at that? Good guy, guns, the end. Yippy kiy ay.

Complete bum. Give me my Die Hard 1, not this film studies degree pretentious crap lads.

Mad Max 3 was a poor man's Mad Max 2. But if you want a scrap about it I'll see you on the Fury Road thread!

johnny_ultimate

Sad Professor wrote: »

And it's not like the OT didn't do this stuff too.

When I rewatched Empire for the first time in a good few years, I was actually taken aback at Yoda's first appearance. Crass and goofy as anything! It obviously has a reason behind it, but still jumps out: even in its most sombre film (well, until Rogue One), the series can still be silly as ****!

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

Hux is another aspect of the new trilogy I intensely dislike.

I dislike Hux too... which is why I got quite a bit of pleasure when Johnson ramps his snivelling nature up to 11 Both him and Snoke (I couldn't give less of a **** about where he came from) were among my least favourite bits of TFA, and I get the impression they were among Johnson's too - which is why I was immensely satisfied with the humiliation inflicted on both here.

Kidchameleon

Circa March 2016 in this very thread I mocked some posters regarding my belief that the leaked photo's from the set in Dubrovnik were fake / not from Episode 8. I just want to say that I stand corrected.

Wibbs

Sad Professor wrote: »

But for the people who thought the post-Spaceballs-esque humour was a problem, you should know that Abrams started it. And it's not like the OT didn't do this stuff too.

TBH other than the cringey opening "holding for general Hux" exchange, which was pretty brutal, I didn't mind the rest of the humour. The milking thing was funny and humanising(I loved how the animal turned around to look at Rey, as if to say "yep, this is what he does. Every morning"), or Rey shouting something like "be careful!" when Luke, a Jedi master goes cliff fishing. Chewie getting carnivore guilt I thought funny, I even liked the island caretakers(though their sudden appearance in large numbers a bit jarring). The bit where Rey is all Jedi with the rock and it crashes into the caretakers wheelbarrow I laughed I must say. The Porg splatting against the windscreen of the Falcon was amusing too, as was Rey's scared reaction to Chewie flying a bit too close for comfort to the walls and Chewie's usual and general attitude of "be grand, like. Hey penguin, get of me controls you muppet". Luke's hut door being flung across the room was a nice little point. I immediately thought "ah here, Rey's gone all force on us", but no it was good old Wookie muscle kicking it in.

If anything and other than the frankly puzzling hold for call part, for me the humorous and "cute" touches in this were one of the better judged of the saga. I bloody hated Ewoks myself.

SnakePlissken

After my disappointment with Rogue One I was expecting the worst, but I sincerely enjoyed TLJ. It was grandiose, beautiful, ballsy, and certainly painted the force in a refreshing light. I've very little to criticise, even the much maligned casino scenes did not offend.

tony stark

Could we do a general poll on this. Just a simple "good" or "bad" 1st reaction. Could be revisited again

Wibbs

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

When I rewatched Empire for the first time in a good few years, I was actually taken aback at Yoda's first appearance. Crass and goofy as anything! It obviously has a reason behind it, but still jumps out:

Ah yeah J, but it was most certainly for a good story reason. I certainly remember watching that for the very first time and not even beginning to suspect that this little old guy was The Great Yoda, Jedi Master. Just like Luke. I/he/we were expecting some tall Sean Connery Gandalf type dude.

For the memberberries..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlKoiJu9TsQ

And then the reveal..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIgud62CjFI

I loved the "I'm not afraid". You will be, you will be".

I suppose it's harder now to have this reveal's affect on us as many people who weren't old enough to have that reveal first time around just know who Yoda is as they watch it.

PS is it just me or does he look and move and sound much better in this than in TLJ?

brianregan09

But Po did the exact same thing with Kylo at the start of the Force Awakens the whole do i talk 1st or do you talk 1st , the conversation with Hux is keeping in with his character

alchemist33

I was bored senseless in the middle, especially on Casino World. The slow-crawl space battle was silly, but then it is Star Wars. Some of the characterisation continues to be poor and the dialogue was as hokey as ever.

But the first and last thirds made up for this for me, so that my lingering feeling is one of satisfaction. It sets the finale (and ep. 9 had better be a finale) up well. That last scene was just perfect.

david75

I think we should have stuck a poll on this day before it opened.

A
A-
B+
B
B-

Etc

Osmosis Jones

I really think a lot of the humour in this is no different to that in the OT

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYAbFqkvzQA

pixelburp

david75 wrote: »

I think we should have stuck a poll on this day before it opened.

A
A-
B+
B
B-

Etc

Given the continued obsession with RT ratings as an arm of film discussion these days, a poll would make for interesting reading given this is a more potted, but strong minded ecosystem.

branie2

I really liked the wink Luke gave to Threepio

david75

pixelburp wrote: »

Given the continued obsession with RT ratings as an arm of film discussion these days, a poll would make for interesting reading given this is a more potted, but strong minded ecosystem.

I don’t get the RT obsession to be honest. Such an easily manipulated system shouldn’t be taken seriously at all.
A poll here would be way more accurate but maybe not as 50/50 as it would appear. People are coming back from second screenings saying way more positive things. Who knows.

uncleoswald

Osmosis Jones wrote: »

I really think a lot of the humour in this is no different to that in the OT

Maybe because there was less of it in the OT or maybe because Ford was so natural at delivering it, it never felt as jarring as it has in TFA and TLJ.

Gbear

branie2 wrote: »

I really liked the wink Luke gave to Threepio

It got the small things like this spot on IMO.

There wasn't massive bits of interaction with Chewie or R2, or even Leia but they were all perfect.

Shakey_jake

"See ya round kid"

How good was that, this movie was brilliant! Seen it twice both times it flew by for me.

When Yoda does that to the tree brilliant, i could go on!

PhiloCypher

uncleoswald wrote: »

Maybe because there was less of it in the OT or maybe because Ford was so natural at delivering it, it never felt as jarring as it has in TFA and TLJ.

Exactly the humour in the OT or at least in ANH and ESB came organically from the characters and situations it was only in RoTJ that the humour became more overt (chewie tarzan around Endor) and similar to what we saw in TLJ .

tony stark

brianregan09 wrote: »

But Po did the exact same thing with Kylo at the start of the Force Awakens the whole do i talk 1st or do you talk 1st , the conversation with Hux is keeping in with his character

Yeah didn't like that either but at leas it wasn't a tactic to waste time.

tony stark

Osmosis Jones wrote: »

I really think a lot of the humour in this is no different to that in the OT

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYAbFqkvzQA

It's already been said there's bits of rubbish in the OT as well but it's the amount of crap humour in the new one. Also Poe and Finn come across as if they're in scarface they're so high

.ak

Really enjoyed it as a whole.. Looking forward to seeing it again.

Did I enjoy it as much as TFA? I'm not sure. TFA was an instantly classic. Rewatched it last week as it's showing on Netflix and ofcourse wanted to refresh myself before watching TLJ, and it really has stood up well after 2 years and it really nails the pacing required for a Star Wars movie. JJ did an awesome job.

TLA? I'm not so sure about the pacing/arrangement. Seemed to go off in tangents, didn't track the main story arc properly, the timing off everything just seemed a little off to me.

The movie has some absolutely jaw dropping moments, and the main story arc between Luke, Rey and Kylo is just perfect. But there's just too many bits in it that seem to, I don't know how to phrase this properly, but belong to another movie?

What I did love about the movie is:

1. Rey and Luke's interaction on the Island. Lovely Star Warsy vibe from the entire act; the desolate land, the jedi master, the dark place, the Frank Oz sorta comedy vibe creatures... Sure, it ripped off ESB, but it worked brilliantly.
   
2. The story of the connection between Kylo and Rey... really powerful stuff, and the two of them really nailed the allure of the power of the force in completely different way.
   
3. Adam Driver... for me, he's the difference between these movies being Disney films with Star Wars wallpaper and a genuine Star Wars journey of dark and light. He's absolutely fantastic, his portrayal of a Jedi being seduced by the dark side is by far the best of anything else in the SW universe.
   
4. THAT fight scene, in Snoke's room.
   
5. The fact that Snoke getting killed was a bit out of the blue, the two joining forces was more white smoke - then eventually finding out Kylo is actually more than just a child in a mask and true bad ass... Brilliant. I hope he goes ultra corrupt in the next one.
   
6. Snoke himself, Andy Serkis take a bow. Another CGI character brought to life like no other. Absolute shame they killed him off after having so little interaction... Bit of a pity really, as I think the films will need someone more sinister than Adam Driver, unless he takes it up a notch in the next. (bring back the mask!!)
   
7. THAT hyperspace kamikaze scene. :eek:
   
8. Mark Hamill, brilliant.
   
9. Del Toro, also brilliant, but the stammer was silly!

Things I didn't really like...

1. The opening sequence. Why was it so easy for one star fighter to pick off all surface cannons of the dreadnaught? Okay, they didn't scramble their fighters in time, but surely a dreadnaught would have anti-air defences as well? And when the fighters were scrambled they were useless. Okay, I get it, Poe is the best pilot ever or whatever, but just seemed like laaaazy writing/directing to me. Where's the intrigue or danger if your character can just do anything and not get killed or ever be in danger?
   
2. I know its Star Wars, but how did the laws of physics suddenly cease to exist in the bomber sequence?
   
3. The pilot chatter was always one of the best things in Star Wars, in this it was just really poor 1 dimensional nonsense.
   
4. Side characters were awful, that Rose chick? Oh my god. Get someone who can act if you're going to give them lines.
   
5. Hux. I like Gleeson, but he was a terrible choice for the role. The accent is awful. I get what Disney are doing tho, they're trying to cast as many young people so they'd be recognisable by a younger audience. It's clever, and I appreciate that, especially when you consider the whole 'brothers vying for fathers approval' relationship between Hux and Kylo Ren, but Hux should've been cast as someone older or better yet, someone actually British.
   
6. The new AT-ATs.. why bother? I thought they'd have some sort of purpose. They looked ridiculous and out of place, they looked like something from the Rebels cartoon. The silly animal features and the 'angry' eyes? C'mon, that's not Star Wars design.
   
7. Star Fight scenes... Wish they took a leaf from Rogue One and 'limited' the manuverability of the Star Fighters. This is the problem with using CGI, when you have no limitations and you're making space ships just zip around the place it doesn't seem 'real' at any time. Rogue One did a brilliant job of adding weight and presence to the starfighter scenes. TLJ just made everything so CGI that I felt like I was watching a bad TV commercial at times.
   
8. Kinda feel like they took the cheap option out with not explaining Snoke or Rey's background. Okay, fine, I get their point: you don't need a character to have a back story in order to give them a presence, and I think that was always going to be the case with Snoke, you'll never know who they are/were because really it's not important. However, you're making a movie that's the 6th/7th in a series, you can't just be so naive as to expect the audience to buy that.
   
9. Why the f**k did they just fly those rusty skimmers at a load of AT-ATs? They all got picked apart. It had no bearing on the film what so ever. They could've made that scene atleast a bit interesting! Let a few of them get through and start causing havoc or something. Also again, everything was faaaaar to CGI and the CGI was poor, the Falcon didn't look like the Falcon and the whole scene looked like something from Rebels.
   
10. Phasma seemed like a wasted character. Looked a bit bad ass for a bit but never really did anything to note. Bit like Fett in the originals I suppose!

All over though, I'm happy. I enjoyed it, looking forward to seeing it again. Would give it a solid 7/10 for now.

But I'd be happier is Johnson wasn't directing the next, was just a bit too all over the shop.