Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi *spoilers from Post 2857*

Osmosis Jones

Hooks Golf Handicap wrote: »

One of the greatest characters in the series then gives his life to save a raggle taggle bunch of about 6 survivors.

Sounds an awful lot like Ben Kenobi

doubledown

I honestly can't remember the last time there was a film this divisive. It appears to have split the fan base right down the middle (pun intended). I am 43 and a lifelong Star Wars and I absolutely ADORED this film. The second viewing was just heaven for me and I can 't wait to see it again. So many moments to enjoy and savour. I acknowledge that there are flaws but none that ruin the whole experience for me.

And yet out of my core group of friends (two of whom are even BIGGER fans than I am, if that's even possible) half of them HATED it. I'm talking feelings of utter disgust and betrayal. To the point where they are saying they're done with this franchise.

So, what gives? Why the division? Is it because the film didn't live up to the version they had in their head all this time? Are the scenes that didn't sit well infecting the rest of the movie for them? Or is it something deeper? Or should we all just grow up and get on with our lives because it's just a silly film?

Edit - see the two posts directly below as an example. That's the entire reaction in a microcosm. No middle ground at all.

Giruilla

Hated it. How do they manage to make everything so f*cking boring. Was a slog at 2.5 hours. Terrible dialogue. The entire monte carlo set piece was a mess and pretty much pointless. The 'humour' is completely jarring and feels like film has just smashed into a brick wall. Humour in star wars used to actually keep pace with film. Now its almost a self aware parody.. eg "page turner it is not".

Finn and Rey are uninteresting, unbelievable characters. I was honestly hoping Finn would die at the end just to break the monotony and bring the film to life in some way.

Ultimately I think these films are weighed with the ball and chain that is luke/leia/chewie/yoda/fan service. They should have included them all in force awakens and then just broke free and created a new story.

Penn

I absolutely loved it, and in a way, I really love the bold direction they took with the explanations of Snoke and Rey's parentage.

Why do we need an explanation for Snoke? We never got one for Vader in the first SW film, nor did we get one for the Emperor in the whole original trilogy. The Emperor literally shoots lightning from his hands and none of us ever questioned it. Snoke may not be a Sith but you don't have to be to tap into the Force, and now that he's gone we have Kylo as the main villain, one who unlike Vader is now seemingly beyond redemption.

And with Rey's parentage, again I kind of like that she's nobody. I like that she doesn't have to be a Skywalker or a Kenobi to be strong with the Force. It's not about lineage or legacy, it's about renewal. A new way forward for the Jedi Order, free of the shackles and failures of the past.

As for Luke, I thought his story and character in this film were absolute perfection. I saw the film twice and it really is the second time where you see the whole reasoning behind it. Right from the opening text crawl, it's about how Leia and the Resistance are pinning everything on Luke coming back and restoring hope to the galaxy. And he does. He faces down the First Order on the salt planet and helps the Resistance to escape, and we see it with the kid at the end; belief in the Force is being restored in the galaxy because of his actions.

I also liked most of the Poe stuff. I think he's turning out to be a great character. And one of my favourite shots of the movie was when Holdo shot through Snoke's ship in lightspeed. I thought it looked absolutely fantastic and while I saw it coming a mile off (and how Hux et al didn't is beyond me), but it was still brilliant.

The film is not without its flaws; John Boyega is a great actor but is being utterly wasted with awful dialogue and terrible story (the whole casino thing), though I did like where his character was by the end of the film, facing down Phasma, trying to kamikaze himself and being saved by Rose. Del Toro was great, but he should have just been the gambler/codebreaker they were looking for in the first place. Leia's Superwoman-ing was atrocious and they could have come up with something far better to get to the same conclusion. Hux was better in this film, but it's still crazy that he could be in charge of the whole army considering he's basically everyone's b*tch. And although 99% of Luke's scenes were utterly fantastic, could have done without seeing him milk an alien. Imply it if you want, but didn't need to see it.

Overall, I was incredibly happy, more so than with TFA or Rogue One. The entire second half of the film is just so great, and Luke, Kylo and Rey were all absolutely perfect. And I think it's the perfect end for Luke Skywalker. I really can't see why some people are so upset over it.

Hector Savage

Wibbs wrote: »

Ah yeah J, but it was most certainly for a good story reason. I certainly remember watching that for the very first time and not even beginning to suspect that this little old guy was The Great Yoda, Jedi Master. Just like Luke. I/he/we were expecting some tall Sean Connery Gandalf type dude.

For the memberberries..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlKoiJu9TsQ

And then the reveal..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIgud62CjFI

I loved the "I'm not afraid". You will be, you will be".

I suppose it's harder now to have this reveal's affect on us as many people who weren't old enough to have that reveal first time around just know who Yoda is as they watch it.

PS is it just me or does he look and move and sound much better in this than in TLJ?

I'm one of the few that actually prefer CGI Yoda - sorry
But the scenes between him and Luke in TESB are up there with the best in the whole saga imo.

TLJ looked like a slight mix of puppetry and CGI - looked a bit off.

But I was delighted he appeared and loved the scene apart from that.

server down

Saruhashi wrote: »

Buh buh but there were massive coincidences in the Original Trilogy too! :P

You keep sarcastically dismissing that as an argument. It is a valid argument. If you enjoyed a film which had lots of co-incidences in the past why condemn it in the present. If the original series had humour why condemn humour in the new one?

Hector Savage

david75 wrote: »

I don’t get the RT obsession to be honest. Such an easily manipulated system shouldn’t be taken seriously at all.
A poll here would be way more accurate but maybe not as 50/50 as it would appear. People are coming back from second screenings saying way more positive things. Who knows.

+1 for the poll ...

I'll vote after 2nd viewing :P

SteM

Hector Savage wrote: »

Breaks my heart that the skelligs will be ruined because of this.

There's a set amount of visitors that can go per year as far as I know. They're quite strict on visitor numbers.

Cantona's Collars

Hector Savage wrote: »

Speaking of that rock, is that really on the skelligs ? or was added ?

If it is I expect it to be fenced off soon from the 1000000s of fat Americans sitting on it for a selfie

Breaks my heart that the skelligs will be ruined because of this.

The Skelligs won't be ruined. Aren't visitor numbers limited plus it's location,the unpredictable weather and no easy access will ensure the place won't be trampled by hordes of fans.

Now for the movie,a lot are giving out about the humour but how many would give out if there was none? Loads... "This is too dark". "Where's the traditional funny touches?" would no doubt crop up a lot.
It's a good rollercoaster of a movie,yes the casino bit was a bit out of place but they did have to shoe horn in something how the wealthy make their money and care nothing of the struggle for freedom.

Hector Savage

david75 wrote: »

Not to start a thing but I think in time we’ll come around to seeing this as one of the best Star Wars films. Sounds controversial but it’s got more of the actual elements in it and repeat beats of the OT then even TFA does. And because they’re so cleverly employed they bring them forward in totally new ways.

Johnson has upended the expectations we all had but he’s just showing them in a different way.


*ps I hated this movie first go. On my fifth viewing and it’s one of my favourites. And no I don’t love it simply coz I’m a fanboi and it says Star Wars. If that were true I’d love rogue one and I really don’t love rogue one.
This ones gonna rise in all our rankings I reckon.

Allready im beginning to feel more positive toward it and still need to go to my 2nd viewing.

david75

No matter what your stance on it one thing we all seem to agree on is Adam Driver nails it with kylo.
I think this makes killing Snoke a brilliant idea because you just know Driver has the chops to go next level as the villain in 9.

eviltimeban

Penn wrote: »

I absolutely loved it, and in a way, I really love the bold direction they took with the explanations of Snoke and Rey's parentage.

*snip*

I actually agree with you on everything here, I came away feeling exactly the same about the exact same points, both positive and negative. Saves me writing my own post!

david75

Hector Savage wrote: »

Allready im beginning to feel more positive toward it and still need to go to my 2nd viewing.

I think you’ll definitely feel better about it. Second go you’re prepared for it and the shock of it had subsided and the truly brilliant Star Wars elements in it really shine and also the deeper themes and echoes which are quite buried begin to appear for you.

I’m not alone saying that. Its really coming to other front of the conversation across fandom.

fluke

Still unsure how to put this into succinct review, but I can't help but feel it's a real dog's dinner of a movie.

TheIrishGrover

I enjoyed that. Could have had just a tiny bit less of the porgs. They didn't annoy me but just thought just one less scene would have been nice. Nice bit of humour (Compare with the Prequels.... Shudder). Exciting and nice leadup to the finale.

Liked

• Rose. Thought she was a great addition.
• Her medallion/was that a hark back to Rogue 1 about the Force as a religion?
• Space battle at the start. Fantastically exciting
• Red Guards
• The silent hyper jump. Was PURE silence in the cinema when that happened. Was fantastic use of (non) sound
• Jakku? Uh, yeah, ok that is pretty much nowhere
• "Holding for General Hux?"
• Domhnail Gleeson's hilariously OTT scenery chewing. Really funny (If only partially intentionally funny)
• I actually liked that Rey's parents WEREN'T anyone special. That they weren't connected to the main cast at all. Expanded the universe a bit
• YODA, BABY!!!!!! YODA!!!!!
• The Diamond Dogs. They looked great.
• The kid at the end force-grabbing the broom

Didn't like/Could have done without.

• Just a little bit too long. Not much but just a little.
• Del-Toro criminally underused
• BB-8 over-use. Seems he can do EVERYTHING from be a slot machine to AT-ST pilot
• Phasma. Why hype her up SO MUCH and get such a high-profile actor to play the part if she is going to be in it for such a short period each time and go out like a punk each time.
• Snoak: Facial animation spot on. Walking movements like Mars Attacks
• Kid with the broom: Loved him force grabbing the broom. Hated him displaying the Resistance Ring. Too on the nose

Osmosis Jones

david75 wrote: »

No matter what your stance on it one thing we all seem to agree on is Adam Driver nails it with kylo.
I think this makes killing Snoke a brilliant idea because you just know Driver has the chops to go next level as the villain in 9.

Adam Driver as Kylo is the Anakin we deserved but never got from the prequels

eviltimeban

Hooks Golf Handicap wrote: »

Bring back George Lucas, all is forgiven.

Four words: "I don't like sand".

Drumpot

.ak wrote: »

I dunno, I get why they wrote it... but I hate the way they make Hux the stupid idiot.

I want my villians to be clever, sinister.. not dumb senseless thugs otherwise what presence do they have? It'd have been better IMO if he caught him out with it once, made the audience laugh, tried it a second time whilst Hux nodded silently to a gunner to open fire on him.

Just felt a bit dummed down.

Could you imagine the scene with Tarkin? What would he have done? Fair enough they're two different characters, but you must think that someone like Hux doesn't get to where he is at his young age without brains.

Tarkin was killed off in the first movie. Every other empire baddy was mocked and choked to death by Vader. I’d say there is a star destroyer full of skeletons floating somewhere, with empire soldiers killed by Vadar!

That aside Krennic was a more interesting character with more depth then cardboard sterotype Tarkin so let’s not pretend Tarkin was some genius. I am only speaking from the movies, so if Tarkin was expanded in the comics I am not familiar with it.

Plenty of slimey gits get to Hux’s Position, have you ever worked in a big company? Snoke even mentions Hux capacity to thrive under the right motivation when saying “and you wonder why I keep him in such a high position”. Hux has the rebels “dangling on string”. He has oversaw the rebels being forced to their knees so he can’t be that stupid!

Being a cartoonish character does not equate to being stupid or incompetent. He falls for the Poe trick , so what, even intelligent and brilliant people can be caught out at times. Why do people demand that all characters act in a rigid format? All baddies must act like x and wear y! The first order should be more like the empire! Luke shouldn’t act silly even after 2 decades in isolation! Disney are just milking this franchise (like that should matter when going to see this!!!). We need to care about Derns character! We need to know more about Snoke/Rey!People say they want change but when they explain their issues it more points to the wanting the same and their movie to follow a prescribed formula.

That aside I still think people need to accept that these movies are primarily targeted for children. Many of us have nostalgiac fondness for the originals whereby we forgive the very same kind of goofy ness or story/character choices because we want to.. You don’t have to like it, but it’s just a fact that many of us have grown up and the issue isn’t so much the movies (that aren’t perfect) it’s that people have outgrown Star Wars and they want/demand Star Wars to move on with them which they are not going to get. You can channel your inner child and try to enjoy these or be cynical and hyper critical which will leave you disappointed. It’s that simple .

Hector Savage

SteM wrote: »

There's a set amount of visitors that can go per year as far as I know. They're quite strict on visitor numbers.

and afaik that has doubled in the last year, money talks.

PhiloCypher

.ak wrote: »

I dunno, I get why they wrote it... but I hate the way they make Hux the stupid idiot.

I want my villians to be clever, sinister.. not dumb senseless thugs otherwise what presence do they have? It'd have been better IMO if he caught him out with it once, made the audience laugh, tried it a second time whilst Hux nodded silently to a gunner to open fire on him.

Just felt a bit dummed down.

Could you imagine the scene with Tarkin? What would he have done? Fair enough they're two different characters, but you must think that someone like Hux doesn't get to where he is at his young age without brains.

Yeh , with Snoke dead we're left with a buffoon who they've done their best to emasculate by making him the butt of jokes from the very first scene and Kylo, who while I think is the best thing about the's sequel films, is basically played as a temper tantrum throwing teen and not someone with the tactical nous to run an Empire.

The Nal

Drumpot wrote: »

That aside I still think people need to accept that these movies are primarily targeted for children. Many of us have nostalgiac fondness for the originals whereby we forgive the very same kind of goofy ness or story/character choices because we want to..

C-3PO is a pain in the arse. Always has been. A camp shiny pain in the arse robot.

The people who are angry about the movie, like really angry, are sad bastards trying to recapture the joy of their youth which is never going to happen. Its their issue. Its only a fúcking movie. A fairly crap one granted.

Hector Savage

david75 wrote: »

we know as much about the emperor at the end of return of the Jedi as we do at the start. Which is to say nothing at all. I think it works better to have Snoke be a mystery. Mystery works.

We know nothing of Yodas backstory. Not even his species or home planet. And he’s brilliant.
Not everyone has to be given a backstory and explained. It ruins it. look at boba fetts shoehorned in backstory. Ruined the character.

I don't mind mystery, I like it - but I would have liked some more screen time and maybe some 'hints' at what/who he is - and would have liked to see him in IX.

But I'm positive something even worse awaits in IX ...

brevity

I didn't mind Hux to be honest. I think there is an interesting battle between him and Kylo. I think they will have a hand in each others demise.

In a way he is similar to Kylo. He knows he is probably to young to be in the position and is trying too hard to be a leader. This is shown at the start when he leaves it too late to deploy the tie fighters and when he ignores the large ship at the end.

eviltimeban

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

Hux is another aspect of the new trilogy I intensely dislike - the de facto leader of The First Order yet ridiculed and made light of at every conceivable turn, and himself a ridiculous caricature that plays out like something from Robot Chicken.

Hello, Donald Trump.

everlast75

2 mates of mine gave me grief because I liked TFA and TLJ.

What most people need to realise is that the original 3 movies were not perfect by any means! Before the prequels and sequels, they were happy dumping on Return of the Jedi. Then the new movies came along, and all of a sudden they are akin to the f'n bible.

If the original 3 aren't perfect (and they are not!), why do people expect the newer movies to be perfect?

I was told I was like the battered housewife, coming back for me. If that's true, then some are like a bloke who never got over his first girlfriend and keeps their picture by their bed, never to date again as nothing will compare to her.

They are good sci-fi movies - I enjoyed them. I only realised after watching them and going online, that people told me I shouldn't like them and that they were crap - silly me :pac:

The force awakens - too much like the old movies
The last Jedi - Not enough like the old movies.
You can't win

homerun_homer

Hector Savage wrote: »

and afaik that has doubled in the last year, money talks.

When I was there last year, any locals I talked to said the restriction to 30 odd people a day was ridiculous. They used to send loads of people over there per day before it was a Unesco heritage site. So I wouldn't get too worked up about it yet since the numbers that can visit it is still lower compared to the potential footfall it used to have in the past.

Osmosis Jones

I like that there's no Tarkin-type, we don't need these movies to run parralel to the OT, there's a different dynamic

Goodshape

Drumpot wrote: »

That aside I still think people need to accept that these movies are primarily targeted for children.

It's not targeted for children though, it's a 12A (PG13 in the USA).

All three of the original films were, and are still, a U rating. And I'd call them family films rather than children's films. Universal appeal. Suitable for everyone.

The Last Jedi doesn't work for kids with it's 12A rating, and doesn't work for adults with it's childish humour, paper thin characters, and out of control 'plot'.

SteM

Hector Savage wrote: »

and afaik that has doubled in the last year, money talks.

Naturally visitor numbers have increased but to say

the skelligs will be ruined because of this.

is just hyperbole. Local boatmen wanted to extend the season but that extension has been refused by the OPW as far as I'm aware. Current visitor levels seem to be sustainable.

Saruhashi

doubledown wrote: »

I honestly can't remember the last time there was a film this divisive. It appears to have split the fan base right down the middle (pun intended). I am 43 and a lifelong Star Wars and I absolutely ADORED this film. The second viewing was just heaven for me and I can 't wait to see it again. So many moments to enjoy and savour. I acknowledge that there are flaws but none that ruin the whole experience for me.

And yet out of my core group of friends (two of whom are even BIGGER fans than I am, if that's even possible) half of them HATED it. I'm talking feelings of utter disgust and betrayal. To the point where they are saying they're done with this franchise.

So, what gives? Why the division? Is it because the film didn't live up to the version they had in their head all this time? Are the scenes that didn't sit well infecting the rest of the movie for them? Or is it something deeper? Or should we all just grow up and get on with our lives because it's just a silly film?

Edit - see the two posts directly below as an example. That's the entire reaction in a microcosm. No middle ground at all.

I think it comes down to what people are willing to forgive or let slide.

I'm sure there are many people who will happily watch The Phantom Menace waiting for the Pod Racing and Darth Maul scenes.

Then there are many others who just can't stand it because one or two outstanding scenes don't really save the movie when everything else is awful.

I see folks make reasoned arguments defending the prequels all the time and I feel the same way as I did here. Yup, they have good bits but the overall package is not great.

If you can forgive or ignore the bad stuff then it's a good movie, sure.

When you say you acknowledge the flaws, what flaws are you talking about and why do they have no impact on the way you see the movie?

I'm cautious about accepting the idea that it needs to be seen more than once to be enjoyed properly as the normalization of that idea seems like a pretty good marketing ploy. I can see the big movie companies rubbing their hands together as customers say "if you didn't enjoy the product why not buy it a few more times before you decide".

I don't really want to spend an extra 10 or 20 or 30 euros to see a movie 2 or 3 or 4 times just to convince myself to like it.

I already did that with the prequels. :P

It's easy for me to take a step back here and look at the movie as a whole and I can point to a number of things that would have people thinking "this is rubbish".

The humor. The style of the humor just didn't feel right to me. I only laughed at one or two lines but there were so many moments where I just groaned. If people didn't like the humor then that's gonna be a big black mark against the movie. Unless I just ignore it.

That's just one thing. The other examples have been repeated so many times now so I don't think they need repeating over and over.

If we cut out the extreme haters and the extreme fanboys and look at people in the middle ground then we get a good idea of what people think.

Many who liked the film are saying it has so many flaws but they can ignore them and enjoy the movie.

Many who didn't like it are saying it has so many good things going for it but the flaws are too prominent and can't be ignored easily.