Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi *spoilers from Post 2857*

Sudden Valley

Surprised Adam Driver is getting so much praise for this movie. Sure his fights were very impressive and some of his scenes were interesting/funny but he is still an emo-anakinesque character whining about how he doesn't want to be bad but has to be, for reasons he can't even articulate. I still have no idea what his motivation is, after watching two movies of him as a villian.

I really enjoyed the movie but was disappointed that they have made Hux a full-blown comic relief character (he was already weak in the first movie) and Snoke totally irrelevant. The writing may be better in these two new movies compared to the hated prequels but the villains are as rubbish.

Saruhashi

server down wrote: »

You keep sarcastically dismissing that as an argument. It is a valid argument. If you enjoyed a film which had lots of co-incidences in the past why condemn it in the present. If the original series had humour why condemn humour in the new one?

Do you honestly think that the style and tone (and frequency) of the humor in TFA and TLJ is the same as the humor in the OT?

There's humor in RO too but the style is completely different.

Same with the prequels. A different type of humor.

You are throwing it all under the same banner of "humor" so that you can say "didn't like TLJ because of humor well there was humor in the OT so I guess you must not like them either"

Goodshape

david75 wrote: »

we know as much about the emperor at the end of return of the Jedi as we do at the start.

We know he's the Emperor. He rules the Empire. That's the thing they're trying to defeat.

That's the thing they do defeat in Return of the Jedi.

So WTF are they fighting now?


Snoke was.... funny lookin'?

We know nothing of Yodas backstory. Not even his species or home planet. And he’s brilliant.

Again, we know enough about Yoda in ESB. He's the ultimate Jedi Master. He's the Mr Miyagi. We get great character beats with him and Luke. We get a bit of humour, a bit of pathos.

Snoke was... nah, all I've got is funny lookin.

LastLagoon

Hated this the first 9 times I watched it but the 10th time it all came together and I

cried with joy

People need to give it a chance

david75

Can’t figure out if people are upset that they didn’t like it or upset that other people did like it. That would be a good poll question

molloyjh

LastLagoon wrote: »

Hated this the first 9 times I watched it but the 10th time it all came together and I

cried with joy

People need to give it a chance

Who goes to see a film they hate 9 times?

Turtyturd

Goodshape wrote: »

We know he's the Emperor. He rules the Empire. That's the thing they're trying to defeat.

That's the thing they do defeat in Return of the Jedi.

So WTF are they fighting now?


Snoke was.... funny lookin'?
.

Would agree with this. In A new hope we know from the offset how the galaxy is and are given a good intro to the empire from their presence on Tatooine alone. 2 films into this trilogy and there’s still no clear idea of the first order. It’s a case of ‘they look like the empire so just assume they’re the same’. That’s more a problem resulting from TFA than this though.

molloyjh

everlast75 wrote: »

If the original 3 aren't perfect (and they are not!), why do people expect the newer movies to be perfect?

I can only speak for myself here, but the originals could get away with a lot because we were being introduced to the characters and the universe for the first time. In situations like that you simply have to take certain things on faith, and are more willing to do so.

When you're talking about sequels like this then they have to try to remain true to the source material and original characters while doing something different. A tricky balancing act to be sure. But for me they got it badly wrong. Luke for example went out of his way, put his life and the entire Rebellion on the line, to save his mass murdering father from the dark side. Yet when it came to his nephew, who hadn't even fallen to the dark side yet, his first instinct was to kill him. That just doesn't add up for me at all. It's great for Kyos character to have such a strong motivation, but it simply doesn't work for Lukes character at all.

And that seems to be an issue running through the film for me. A lot of work has gone into giving the new characters screen time and motivation while the original characters are almost an afterthought. And that's hard to take when the original characters were the ones who got us into the whole universe to begin with. We're already invested in them, and for them to be so badly used makes me feel a bit cheated.

SteM

Saruhashi wrote: »

Do you honestly think that the style and tone (and frequency) of the humor in TFA and TLJ is the same as the humor in the OT?

There's humor in RO too but the style is completely different.

Same with the prequels. A different type of humor.

You are throwing it all under the same banner of "humor" so that you can say "didn't like TLJ because of humor well there was humor in the OT so I guess you must not like them either"

As an aside, the 'humor' in the prequels was generally awful imo. C3PO 'this is such a drag', 'I'm quite beside myself' were a couple of the worst lines in any SW movie. I'd prefer to see Chewie struggle to eat a roasted Porg or watch the Hux/Dameron exchange any day.

Wibbs

Osmosis Jones wrote: »

Adam Driver as Kylo is the Anakin we deserved but never got from the prequels

Yes and no. He does a lot of acting which seems to equate to characterisation for many. And he does it well enough, but there's little story or more importantly reason for who he is in the very basic nuts and bolts of what Star Wars mythology(or good storytelling) was about. And he's about the only one of the new breed with any story or reason to him.

OK I'll go full nerd here... Take why he's "evil". Luke says he senses the evil in him and the most powerful evil it is. OK, but not in the context of the universe they're writing this for. Look back at Anakin. He's not evil. Yoda thinks he has too much fear and that can lead to bad places, but nobody suggests he's inherently evil. if anything some think he can bring balance to things. He's mouldable, his destiny is not fixed. Even though the audience knows how it plays out, they want to see the journey to that end.

What happens to him and what happens to all who went dark side is they're seduced by it. They're good, or basically human people who turn bad for different reasons(often on the surface good reasons. IE Vader wants to save his wife and goes down the wrong path because of it). This is much more realistic and reflective of actual human behaviour and why the story arc of the Skywalker clan has held such a grip on world culture and across cultures with it. It's archetypes all over the place. That's what gave it its heart and longevity, even with the oft creaky scripting and dodgy pacing. And bloody Ewoks.

With Kylo we have none of that. He's destined to be evil, there's no reason for it, no seduction towards it, he just is. If Luke had never been around the outcome would be the same. It's taking a very different position and a fundamental one. Oh he might be turned or they foreshadow that, but it will be an unearned redemption.

EG look at what Sudden Valley had to say and their takeaway as a viewer.

Sudden Valley wrote:

he is still an emo-anakinesque character whining about how he doesn't want to be bad but has to be, for reasons he can't even articulate. I still have no idea what his motivation is, after watching two movies of him as a villian.

Exactly.

Unearned is a big issue with the Disney Star Wars story. Rey the other example of it. The Mary Sue thing is ridiculous, but it's just another more glaringly obvious example of the Just Is style storytelling. She's destined to be good. Again there's no reason for it, no conflict, she just is. Just like her powers. Just inherently a Jedi Master/engineer who knows more about the Falcon than Han/Best pilot ever with no reason, no graft, no failure, no journey and ultimately no story to her. And nobody was around for her at all, but the outcome is the same. Oh she might waver in the next one as she falls for Emo Bad Boy with his broody vibe and shirt off, but she won't fall and there's never a doubt she will because she just is. No conflict.

They state this unearned aspect a few times in the films. Snoke directly states that one dark one rises and an equal light one rises to meet it. Yin and Yang magic superheroes. It just happens(he thinks it might be Luke, but Luke didn't just happen, so he's out). The kid at the end moving the mop with the force as if it's nothing another nod to this. Luke says it to Rey, that [paraphrasing] the force belongs to everyone. He wants to burn down the tree and the books and the Jedi and Yoda does it for him(they throw away a thousand generations of knowledge and graft that kept the peace for those thousands of generations for no good reason). Kylo in between teenaged tantrums also hammers this home. Kill what's old. Kill the Jedi, kill the Sith. A storming of the Bastille, an October revolution of the people against the old order.

Which is fine, but unlike what the writers seem to think that makes things lesser, not greater. The Force has become an egalitarian workers of the world unite superpower that you just have and can wield if you truly believe, or just turn up like Rey. Like giving every kid on school sports day a medal for participation(very millennial). Like I said earlier that's fine and common to comic books for kids, but it's an empty thing, especially in an established mythology that had far more nuance.

It's not a political or whatever statement though. It's more basic. Wipe the decks of the old, so that a simpler, newer universe with the same visuals and music of Star Wars on the surface can be created and milked at the box office and toy shop for an increasingly impatient culture. Han and Luke had to die, especially Luke, Leia would have stayed as the mammy figure and she wasn't old style Jedi anyway(and she shows untrained powers in this last outing too). Chewie and the droids would be fine as bit players with less screen time as they were non involved in the main arc. Though R2D2 has been effectively replaced with the football. Smaller cuter and squeakier. Just in time for Christmas.

Drumpot wrote: »

That aside I still think people need to accept that these movies are primarily targeted for children. Many of us have nostalgiac fondness for the originals whereby we forgive the very same kind of goofy ness or story/character choices because we want to.. Y

Oh they were aimed at kids alright, but they resonated with such a wide audience because they had themes and archetypes behind the oft childish and simplistic depictions. The best children's storytelling captures children of all ages for those reasons.

And ultimately this is why I might have enjoyed bits of TFA and this LJ. After all Hollywood has that kinda button pushing thing well in hand these days and I have buttons like anyone else. However I couldn't like or grow to love it, as it is all surface, all dress up, all plot and gurning minus the heart and archetypal storytelling that the Star Wars universe had at its core.

And that's what's wrong with it and no amount of hyperspace suicide runs can make up for that.

thegreengoblin

Hooks Golf Handicap wrote: »

Saw it & was bitterly disappointed.

The 2 big death scenes seemed so wasteful of big characters.
One dies without any backstory whatsoever.
One of the greatest characters in the series then gives his life to save a raggle taggle bunch of about 6 survivors.

The whole sideplot with Finn & Rose should have remained on the cutting room floor.
And then to think that Disney has entrusted the future of this franchise with the same director.

Bring back George Lucas, all is forgiven.

Luke gives his life because he knows that if this 'raggle taggle bunch' die then that's it. The First Order have won. These people are the future of the Resistance. It's very clearcut and what he did was entirely in keeping with his character. Even in ROTJ he tells Palpatine 'soon I'll be dead and you with me'. He wasn't worried about staying alive as long as it meant his friends would achieve their aims.

I didn't want Luke to die either but it had to happen. The more I think about Mark Hamill's performance the more I love it. He gave it everything and it paid off magnificently in the end.

John_D80

molloyjh wrote: »

Who goes to see a film they hate 9 times?

Whooosh!!!

david75

Turtyturd wrote: »

Would agree with this. In A new hope we know from the offset how the galaxy is and are given a good intro to the empire from their presence on Tatooine alone. 2 films into this trilogy and there’s still no clear idea of the first order. It’s a case of ‘they look like the empire so just assume they’re the same’. That’s more a problem resulting from TFA than this though.

We know he’s the big bad. We know he wants to take over the galaxy. We know he’s even more evil and manipulative than Palpatine. And has similar powers if not more so (the force link between rey and kylo)

I just don’t think we need anything more. The films really about Rey kylo and Luke primarily. Tbh I could have done with more luke but maybe that was just enough too.

Maybe showing Snoke doing some force stuff setting up that force link? I dunno.
But he’s supreme leader so how do you go about explaining his story in a short time? Robs him of his power in a way. And It’s not like hed have to explain himself to anyone in the film unless maybe if Luke faced off against him?
And he seems terrified of luke and determined to wipe him out so I’d say they have history somehow.

Either way I deffo think we’ll be getting snokes backstory or at least as it relates to Ben and Luke, at some point this year.

david75

molloyjh wrote: »

I can only speak for myself here, but the originals could get away with a lot because we were being introduced to the characters and the universe for the first time. In situations like that you simply have to take certain things on faith, and are more willing to do so.

When you're talking about sequels like this then they have to try to remain true to the source material and original characters while doing something different. A tricky balancing act to be sure. But for me they got it badly wrong. Luke for example went out of his way, put his life and the entire Rebellion on the line, to save his mass murdering father from the dark side. Yet when it came to his nephew, who hadn't even fallen to the dark side yet, his first instinct was to kill him. That just doesn't add up for me at all. It's great for Kyos character to have such a strong motivation, but it simply doesn't work for Lukes character at all.

And that seems to be an issue running through the film for me. A lot of work has gone into giving the new characters screen time and motivation while the original characters are almost an afterthought. And that's hard to take when the original characters were the ones who got us into the whole universe to begin with. We're already invested in them, and for them to be so badly used makes me feel a bit cheated.

The purpose of using the original characters at all is to pass the torch to the new characters I feel. Luke especially. The original characters are our gateway into this. They’re not really required for it to continue.

Hector Savage

Another thing - now I'm glad there is going to be a new generation of Jedis , but is this a hint at where Rian Johnssons trilogy will be set ?

molloyjh

david75 wrote: »

The purpose of using the original characters at all is to pass the torch to the new characters I feel. Luke especially. The original characters are our gateway into this. They’re not really required for it to continue.

I totally get that, but for them to pass the torch you need to be true to who the characters are. They certainly weren't true to who Luke was. It seems they were so keen to pass the torch that they didn't put enough thought into quite how they were going to do it.

The Luke/Rey/Kylo stuff was the best of the film. Some of that arc was just outstanding as a stand alone film. But when you step away and digest it in the context of the franchise a lot of it just doesn't quite stack up.

david75

Hector Savage wrote: »

Another thing - now I'm glad there is going to be a new generation of Jedis , but is this a hint at where Rian Johnssons trilogy will be set ?

He has said he’s going all the way back to the beginning with his trilogy. And he’s also said he’s not doing KOTOR.

So maybe the very first pagan force users before Jedi and with evolved as entities ?

david75

molloyjh wrote: »

I totally get that, but for them to pass the torch you need to be true to who the characters are. They certainly weren't true to who Luke was. It seems they were so keen to pass the torch that they didn't put enough thought into quite how they were going to do it.

The Luke/Rey/Kylo stuff was the best of the film. Some of that arc was just outstanding as a stand alone film. But when you step away and digest it in the context of the franchise a lot of it just doesn't quite stack up.

Luke can’t be where he was 30 years ago though. Who in their mid 50s is the same as they were mid 20s.

He’s broken and lost after trying and failing. And costing probably billions of Lives through creating kylo.

I think it would have been so boring if we picked up with him and he’s the old zen Jedi trope. There’s no story there I don’t think. No conflict.

Hector Savage

david75 wrote: »

He has said he’s going all the way back to the beginning with his trilogy. And he’s also said he’s not doing KOTOR.

So maybe the very first pagan force users before Jedi and with evolved as entities ?

Great, love this idea about going way before PT/OT times.

Goodshape

david75 wrote: »

But he’s supreme leader so how do you go about explaining his story in a short time?

Supreme leader of what?

Hector Savage

Goodshape wrote: »

Supreme leader of what?

He's Darth Plageuis in my head, and I'll keep believing that untill Disney/Lucasfilm say or indicate otherwise

thegreengoblin

This is hilarious. 'Telephone, telegraph, tele-Carrie...' :pac:

molloyjh

david75 wrote: »

Luke can’t be where he was 30 years ago though. Who in their mid 50s is the same as they were mid 20s.

He’s broken and lost after trying and failing. And costing probably billions of Lives through creating kylo.

I think it would have been so boring if we picked up with him and he’s the old zen Jedi trope. There’s no story there I don’t think. No conflict.

But I'm talking about his first instinct being to kill Ben Solo before he became Kylo Ren. That doesn't fit at all with what we know of him as a person from the end of ROTJ. You can't just expect an audience to see a massive shift in a characters behaviour and not question it.

I can totally get his motivations after Bens turn to the dark side. It's the role he plays in that happening that doesn't make sense. And that leaves the whole thing built on foundations of sand for me. If the key point in the history of the 2 characters doesn't make sense then it doesn't really matter how logical everything after that is.

Penn

thegreengoblin wrote: »

Luke gives his life because he knows that if this 'raggle taggle bunch' die then that's it. The First Order have won. These people are the future of the Resistance. It's very clearcut and what he did was entirely in keeping with his character. Even in ROTJ he tells Palpatine 'soon I'll be dead and you with me'. He wasn't worried about staying alive as long as it meant his friends would achieve their aims.

Exactly. In the opening text scroll, it says Leia hopes that Luke coming back will restore hope to the galaxy and the Resistance, and Rey says the same thing to him, that they need Luke Skywalker and the Jedi back.

The Resistance sent out their distress signal, and no one responded because they believed the Resistance was doomed. Hope for the resistance was gone, Leia said similar herself. Then Luke showed up, and suddenly, hope was restored. The Resistance was trapped, and Luke gave them a chance to escape, meaning those who didn't respond to the distress signal now because they thought it was all over, see a Resistance reborn. Luke faced down Kylo Ren and the First Order's army and held them off, and now all through the galaxy, as we saw with the kid who grabs the brush with the Force, believe in the power of the Force again, and believe in the hope that the Jedi are back, the Resistance is still alive, and the First Order can be defeated.

“We are the spark that will light the fire that will burn the First Order down”

Luke gives his life for that spark of hope, so the Resistance can survive, and that Rey can build a new Jedi order free of the mistakes of the past. Free of the mistakes of the Skywalker family.

Guffy

So many posts that are really tltr.

This movie does not need an essay to analyse. It was genuinely eubbish. I honestly couldnt count the number of times i had my head in my hands at plot holes and bad story telling. I hope its just down to the director

expectationlost

there be so many things I'd cut from this film the section in the cave with the voice over and the mutiplicity of Reys, what was that?, CUT. Just get to the mirror if you want, what she was shownl should have devastating for her it was just underwhelming for us.

molloyjh

Penn wrote: »

Luke gives his life for that spark of hope, so the Resistance can survive, and that Rey can build a new Jedi order free of the mistakes of the past. Free of the mistakes of the Skywalker family.

I'd love to know how she can do that with practically no training at all better than Luke could with real training from a proper Master.

Look back to the end of ROTJ and you saw Luke turning his father back to the light when both Yoda and Obi Wan said that couldn't happen. He already took things down a different and more hopeful path with that. And could then forge his own path from there. Ultimately what we've now been told though is that no matter what Luke did he was always dooming the galaxy to further bloodshed. Which for me poisons that hopeful and positive ending to ROTJ.

I think the EU did a far better job of managing how and why further conflict occurred after ROTJ. And I never wanted to say that because I wanted the new trilogy to be a success and never wanted to compare it to the EU.

Tony EH

david75 wrote: »

Would be interesting to know if people who didn’t like TLJ will be happy with the news JJ is back for episode 9.

Um.

I think on the whole Johnson delivered more to enjoy in TLJ, but is in serious need of someone to reign him in with the nonsense.

But, strangely enough, I watched a fan edit of TFA recently which excised most of Finn's stupid lines, whooping and other crap like that awful Rathar chase and it flows much better.

A fan edit of TLJ will be most welcome. Cut Mary Poppins, most of Finn/Rose and you have a tighter, better film, without the hideous WTF to drag it down. But, I think that it'll be quite difficult to do anything to remedy that dumb "camel" chase. WTH were they thinking?

I'm harsh on Disney's product so far, but there are relatively decent films in there. They're just in need of a good editor.

Is Marcia Lucas still around...

david75

molloyjh wrote: »

But I'm talking about his first instinct being to kill Ben Solo before he became Kylo Ren. That doesn't fit at all with what we know of him as a person from the end of ROTJ. You can't just expect an audience to see a massive shift in a characters behaviour and not question it.

I can totally get his motivations after Bens turn to the dark side. It's the role he plays in that happening that doesn't make sense. And that leaves the whole thing built on foundations of sand for me. If the key point in the history of the 2 characters doesn't make sense then it doesn't really matter how logical everything after that is.

I think it’s a brilliant piece of writing. He’s seen what his father was and became and did to the galaxy. He has a moment of despair and on a precipice. Luke has the power to nip it in the bud and just can’t. That’s the conflict. And he gets caught and the decision is taken off him and his actions create kylo. His telling of the event is brilliant cos we see that’s the break in him.
He wasn’t flat out going to kill him. He just had a moments thought if it. That’s nit a break with character I don’t think

Tony EH

david75 wrote: »

we know as much about the emperor at the end of return of the Jedi as we do at the start. Which is to say nothing at all. I think it works better to have Snoke be a mystery. Mystery works.

We know nothing of Yodas backstory. Not even his species or home planet. And he’s brilliant.
Not everyone has to be given a backstory and explained. It ruins it. look at boba fetts shoehorned in backstory. Ruined the character.

Absolutely.

And we only have to look at the prequels to see the absurdities of where "a backstory for everyone!" leads to.