Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi *spoilers from Post 2857*

TerrorFirmer

everlast75 wrote: »

The force awakens - too much like the old movies
The last Jedi - Not enough like the old movies.
You can't win

That keeps getting said but no-one's actually saying that at all.

What people primarily take issue with is (and, this is of course just an opinion of some, not gospel either) that they don't stack up properly with the OT or have serious inconsistencies in the characters.

There is a balance to be found in everything, it's not some sort of black and white spectrum where something has to be either A (very much like the old movies) or B (completely different).

It's about finding something in between, but a lot of people felt they failed in trying to balance it despite the positively received central arc surrounding Rey/Kylo/Luke.

I mean, for example the prequel trilogy is very different to the original trilogy, yet it is also very familiar in terms of narrative, structure, the world building, etc.

Just so happens that Lucas made a shambles of them, but the intent was there to create something familiar....yet simultaneously fresh and new.

Nobody wanted a remake of Empire Strikes Back. I was actively praying they would avoid that and was delighted that they did - but I still have serious issues with the film.

Nobody is moaning because, literally, 'it's not like the old movies' - more so that it doesn't fully correctly gel, for some people, with those movies.

Personally, most of my issues relate to creative and narrative decisions and are not linked the OT at all (or just fleetingly), but that's just me.

That aside I still think people need to accept that these movies are primarily targeted for children. Many of us have nostalgiac fondness for the originals whereby we forgive the very same kind of goofy ness or story/character choices because we want to.

That's a cop out. Star Wars, and George Lucas' original vision, has always been about universal storytelling, with enough layers to make it compelling on so many different planes.

To claim the same level of goofiness that's in TLJ is the same as the OT or prequels and it's merely nostalgia holding the blinkers in place is just nonsense.

I mean, if you even watch The Force Awakens, the use of comedy and comic relief is very similar to the OT, and PT also.

Yes, comedy has always been part of the franchise, but The Last Jedi is the first of the franchise to employ spoof style humour.

TerrorFirmer

Tony EH wrote: »

Absolutely.

And we only have to look at the prequels to see the absurdities of where "a backstory for everyone!" leads to.

The Palpatine story itself had both appeal and potential (and was utterly wasted) but I really wanted to slap Lucas across the face for Jango Fett.

Saruhashi

molloyjh wrote: »

Luke for example went out of his way, put his life and the entire Rebellion on the line, to save his mass murdering father from the dark side. Yet when it came to his nephew, who hadn't even fallen to the dark side yet, his first instinct was to kill him. That just doesn't add up for me at all. It's great for Kyos character to have such a strong motivation, but it simply doesn't work for Lukes character at all.

I'd add to this that at the end of the movie Luke shows up to basically troll Ben. He is essentially goading him into letting the hate flow.

If anything the Luke and Ben scene at the end should have been Luke trying to turn him back but instead it feels like he is mocking the most dangerous guy in the galaxy and making him fall deeper to the dark side.

I actually don't feel like it's consistent with Star Wars lore or with Luke's character.

He failed Ben badly and he admits it BUT he also takes the opportunity to make a fool of him one last time.

I mean, Luke's "mistake" led to Ben waking up in the middle of the night with Uncle Luke looming over him brandishing an ignited lightsaber. This sent him on a path that ultimately led to Ben Solo dying ("from a certain point of view") and being replaced by Kylo Ren who murders Ben's father.

Then the next time they meet Uncle Luke he is not really all that apologetic and even goes as far as to say "see you around, kid" just like Han would have done.

Luke is taunting Ben over the death of Han despite knowing full well that he, Luke, was the one who pushed Ben down that path towards the dark side.

Their reunion should have consisted of Luke begging for forgiveness instead it's like "LOL sucker I'm just a projection".

I feel like the story direction here took Luke from the legendary hero to an irredeemable villain who played a major role in handing the First Order their most powerful ally. Then he just shows up at the end to stoke Kylo Ren's rage a bit more before disappearing.

molloyjh

david75 wrote: »

I think it’s a brilliant piece of writing. He’s seen what his father was and became and did to the galaxy. He has a moment of despair and on a precipice. Luke has the power to nip it in the bud and just can’t. That’s the conflict. And he gets caught and the decision is taken off him and his actions create kylo. His telling of the event is brilliant cos we see that’s the break in him.
He wasn’t flat out going to kill him. He just had a moments thought if it. That’s nit a break with character I don’t think

For me it is. At no point, even in the face of his own death and the death of the Rebellion did he give up on Vader. He lashed out at the thought of harm coming to Leia, but the reality is that he never really gave up on someone who had already turned.

Having learned that he could successfully save someone from the dark side, why was his first instinct to kill someone who had yet to turn? I can't reconcile that at all in my head. It just doesn't fit at all. Add to that the fact that all he ever knew of his father was Vader. He'd have known Ben from when he was born and had a lot more attachment to him.

No, I just can't get my head around why that would happen at all. It just doesn't make any sense.

Penn

molloyjh wrote: »

I'd love to know how she can do that with practically no training at all better than Luke could with real training from a proper Master.

Look back to the end of ROTJ and you saw Luke turning his father back to the light when both Yoda and Obi Wan said that couldn't happen. He already took things down a different and more hopeful path with that. And could then forge his own path from there. Ultimately what we've now been told though is that no matter what Luke did he was always dooming the galaxy to further bloodshed. Which for me poisons that hopeful and positive ending to ROTJ.

I think the EU did a far better job of managing how and why further conflict occurred after ROTJ. And I never wanted to say that because I wanted the new trilogy to be a success and never wanted to compare it to the EU.

Luke had f*ck all training himself. He was with Yoda for a few days at most in Empire (given the length of time Han & Leia were on Bespin), and when he returned to Yoda in Jedi, Yoda died shortly after. Luke never had a huge amount of training. He beat Vader the second time due to Vader's hesitance and turning and Luke giving in to his anger (though pulling back from it rather than siding with Palpatine).

Rey may not have Luke (though I imagine he'll do an Obi-Wan and appear as a Force Ghost in the next film, probably both to Rey and Kylo), however, Rey also now has the Jedi books from the tree on the island. They're shown in the Millenium Falcon at the end. She also has Leia who can use the Force too (though it depends how far after this film the next one is set, given that Leia won't now be in the next one).

Luke said it himself, both he and the Jedi themselves failed due to their own hubris and belief in their own legend. Rey is now free of that, and can start the Jedi anew, with the ancient books, and knowing how the Jedi failed. Failure is a great teacher, as Yoda told Luke.

The Nal

Defo a "would you kill baby Hitler" buzz to the whole thing. I liked that part. Luke is a conflicted character. The good vs evil lines were blurred a bit. Shown with Del Toros character selling weapons to the First Order and the rebels.

Any old school WWE fans will know about it.

Wibbs

molloyjh wrote: »

I can totally get his motivations after Bens turn to the dark side.

But that's the thing M, like I longwindedly said a page ago he doesn't turn, he just is. He would have been bad without Luke or anyone else. The apparently new inevitability that a baddie will rise and a goodie will rise to face them, both pretty much fully formed. No arc, no seduction, no conflict Insta-Baddie, Insta-Goodie, just add water. It's really lazy and crappy storytelling.

Now they might have gone a very different and more solid, realistic and interesting way with these flics after the Rebels win of the OT. They could have shown the new republic growing complacent in its hubris and a new order arises among the infighting of the new republic. Luke goes into exile because he can see it happening again and does a Yoda hoping for another potential saviour(s) to help. Ben Solo who Luke trained up tries to keep the Jedi school going, but is not ready for such a task and is seduced by Snoke. Rey shows some force talent and through various adventures and trials finds Luke who tries to teach her and does, but she like him before her goes off half cocked and nearly falls to the dark side. Have Finn as a more main character, the ex soldier who has actually done terrible things, but wakes up to them and needs to find forgiveness. Maybe make him the "other", a savour who isn't a force user. And so forth. OK derivative of the OT in some respects, but that would have allowed the new team to take up the banner without losing the heart of the saga.

Penn

Saruhashi wrote: »

I'd add to this that at the end of the movie Luke shows up to basically troll Ben. He is essentially goading him into letting the hate flow.

If anything the Luke and Ben scene at the end should have been Luke trying to turn him back but instead it feels like he is mocking the most dangerous guy in the galaxy and making him fall deeper to the dark side.

I actually don't feel like it's consistent with Star Wars lore or with Luke's character.

He failed Ben badly and he admits it BUT he also takes the opportunity to make a fool of him one last time.

I mean, Luke's "mistake" led to Ben waking up in the middle of the night with Uncle Luke looming over him brandishing an ignited lightsaber. This sent him on a path that ultimately led to Ben Solo dying ("from a certain point of view") and being replaced by Kylo Ren who murders Ben's father.

Then the next time they meet Uncle Luke he is not really all that apologetic and even goes as far as to say "see you around, kid" just like Han would have done.

Luke is taunting Ben over the death of Han despite knowing full well that he, Luke, was the one who pushed Ben down that path towards the dark side.

Their reunion should have consisted of Luke begging for forgiveness instead it's like "LOL sucker I'm just a projection".

I feel like the story direction here took Luke from the legendary hero to an irredeemable villain who played a major role in handing the First Order their most powerful ally. Then he just shows up at the end to stoke Kylo Ren's rage a bit more before disappearing.

Because as he discussed with Leia, Ben is too far gone, and he can't be saved. It may be Luke's fault, but Luke going out and apologising would solve nothing. He wants to keep Ben angry so he can focus all his attention on him and let everyone escape. He taunts him because he knows there is no hope left for Ben, but that there is for the Resistance and the Jedi, and that can't be extinguished.

molloyjh

Saruhashi wrote: »

I'd add to this that at the end of the movie Luke shows up to basically troll Ben. He is essentially goading him into letting the hate flow.

If anything the Luke and Ben scene at the end should have been Luke trying to turn him back but instead it feels like he is mocking the most dangerous guy in the galaxy and making him fall deeper to the dark side.

I actually don't feel like it's consistent with Star Wars lore or with Luke's character.

He failed Ben badly and he admits it BUT he also takes the opportunity to make a fool of him one last time.

I mean, Luke's "mistake" led to Ben waking up in the middle of the night with Uncle Luke looming over him brandishing an ignited lightsaber. This sent him on a path that ultimately led to him murdering his own father. Then the next time he meets Uncle Luke he is not really all that apologetic and even goes as far as to say "see you around, kid" just like Han would have done.

Luke is taunting Ben over the death of Han despite knowing full well that he, Luke, was the one who pushed Ben down that path towards the dark side.

Their reunion should have consisted of Luke begging for forgiveness instead it's like "LOL sucker I'm just a projection".

I feel like the story direction here took Luke from the legendary hero to an irredeemable villain who played a major role in handing the First Order their most powerful ally. Then he just shows up at the end to stoke Kylo Ren's rage a bit more before disappearing.

I get how Luke handled it in that last confrontation. What was important there was the Resistance. But everything else you say I'm bang on with. Luke was the hopeful character who saved the tragic character of his father and the galaxy. That he then went totally against his established behaviours to create the main villain for this trilogy and then ran away from his mistakes dooming his friends and family just doesn't fit with the character we spent 3 other films getting to know. And we've been no good reason for that shift in behaviour.

pinksoir

Look. Nothing will ever top the original Star Wars. It was the perfect pastiche of Western, Fairytale, Arthurian legend, WWII war movie, samurai movie, Flash Gordon serial, hero's journey... all told through the eyes of the two lowliest subjects - the droids (like Hidden Fortress). Empire was one of the rare cases where the sequel outdid the original, but it did so by taking a wildly different approach. That approach paid off.

I have to laud this movie for being something different and often bold. I really did enjoy it, while knowing that it'll never come close to my experience of the originals. There's so much more involved in that experience, not least nostalgia and the fact that Star Wars was just the result of a perfect storm. It's timeless. 

TLJ is not perfect, but man does it have some absolutely incredible stuff - the light speed collision scene is something that I have never experienced in my life. Absolute quiet in the cinema with not a ruffle of popcorn bag to be heard. It was quite disorienting. The throne room scene was something else too. And I actually loved all the goofy stuff , and the screen I was in seemed to eat it up too - even the walrus milking, which was hilarious and the whole cinema erupted. All this stuff served to offset the much darker stuff going on. 

Not a perfect movie, but then what is. I didn't find anything sufficiently disappointing such that it affected my enjoyment of the great stuff, though there were some choices I didn't jive with. What are ya gonna do, though? You can't please all the people all the time. But the movie was bold enough, took the less obvious route so much of the time, that I was mostly pleasantly surprised. 

Leia in space was weird, though. I understand it as a choice to show how powerful she is with the Force, almost subconsciously. But it didn't sit quite right. Slo-mo chase could probably have been better executed too. In the grand scheme, the gripes I have are minor. 

I'm still processing it and I reckon I'll definitely see it again which is something I rarely do, and certainly didn't with either of the other new Star Wars films. So that's a sign of... something. Right now I'm thinking it's about 8/10 and certainly better than TFA. For me, a worthy addition to the story and sits right behind the OT.

TerrorFirmer

Saruhashi wrote: »

I'd add to this that at the end of the movie Luke shows up to basically troll Ben. He is essentially goading him into letting the hate flow.

While I agree with your points, there's room to let it grow in Ep9. In this instance, Luke was merely buying time for Leia and the crew; grovelling to Kylo Ren would have achieved little given the stakes and limited window.

He may yet appear as a force ghost in Ep9 and speak/appeal to Ren.

Now, if he doesn't, so be it, and I'd be disappointed if it's not revisited in some way, shape or form because he owes it to Ren.

That's the thing about TFA and TLJ - a great deal of the perceived narrative/characteristion faults in the movie are only faults if they remain unaddressed to a greater extent in Ep9.

I think the overall perception of the trilogy depends very heavily on Ep9 delivering, far more than ANH and ESB did on ROTJ.

Saruhashi

Penn wrote: »

Luke had f*ck all training himself. He was with Yoda for a few days at most in Empire (given the length of time Han & Leia were on Bespin), and when he returned to Yoda in Jedi, Yoda died shortly after. Luke never had a huge amount of training. He beat Vader the second time due to Vader's hesitance and turning and Luke giving in to his anger (though pulling back from it rather than siding with Palpatine).

I thought it was strongly implied at the very start of RotJ that Luke has indeed been training and has become much more powerful with the force.

He is fully trained to the point that his final test is to face Vader?

That was my understanding anyway. He's obviously done things like learn to build a lightsaber and learn to use force and the Jedi mind-trick in the gap between episodes 5 and 6.

molloyjh

Penn wrote: »

Luke had f*ck all training himself. He was with Yoda for a few days at most in Empire (given the length of time Han & Leia were on Bespin), and when he returned to Yoda in Jedi, Yoda died shortly after. Luke never had a huge amount of training. He beat Vader the second time due to Vader's hesitance and turning and Luke giving in to his anger (though pulling back from it rather than siding with Palpatine).

Rey may not have Luke (though I imagine he'll do an Obi-Wan and appear as a Force Ghost in the next film, probably both to Rey and Kylo), however, Rey also now has the Jedi books from the tree on the island. They're shown in the Millenium Falcon at the end. She also has Leia who can use the Force too (though it depends how far after this film the next one is set, given that Leia won't now be in the next one).

Luke said it himself, both he and the Jedi themselves failed due to their own hubris and belief in their own legend. Rey is now free of that, and can start the Jedi anew, with the ancient books, and knowing how the Jedi failed. Failure is a great teacher, as Yoda told Luke.

But wasn't the point of the previous 6 films that the Jedi Order failed and Luke was different? Why is that now no longer the case for Luke but it is for Rey? Just because? If Luke saw and understood why the Jedi failed and yet still made the same mistakes, how are we to believe that Rey will be any better?

Also, Luke got dedicated training over a period of days from a committed Master. Rey got 3 very brief lessons from someone who had cut themselves off from the Force years before. And this after she had learned to Jedi Mind Trick by herself in TFA.

It's almost like Del Toros character said. It doesn't matter who wins, this will all just repeat itself over and over. That's definitely the message I got from the film. In which case, what's the bloody point? Yay, Luke saved the galaxy. No wait, he just doomed it to a worse fate. Yay, Rey saved the galaxy. Wait for it......

Wibbs

Penn wrote: »

Luke had f*ck all training himself. He was with Yoda for a few days at most in Empire (given the length of time Han & Leia were on Bespin), and when he returned to Yoda in Jedi, Yoda died shortly after. Luke never had a huge amount of training. He beat Vader the second time due to Vader's hesitance and turning and Luke giving in to his anger (though pulling back from it rather than siding with Palpatine).

True but he was nearly always bested by any betters that came along. Right up to the end and even then his da had to save him. He could barely move a few small boulders or his X wing, but Rey is at Jedi Master level out of the box with no training at all and can move whole mountains. There's even the hint of an in joke about it when Snoke notes Darth Emo was bested by a girl who had never even held a light sabre before.

Luke said it himself, both he and the Jedi themselves failed due to their own hubris and belief in their own legend. Rey is now free of that, and can start the Jedi anew, with the ancient books, and knowing how the Jedi failed. Failure is a great teacher, as Yoda told Luke.

Which is fine only it completely ignores that within the story those same Jedi and their books and "faith" helped keep the peace in the old republic for thousands of years. The only blip was the span of a lifetime length of the Empire they helped defeat in the end because of a couple of Jedi types were left. It would make as much sense as throwing away the idea of western civilisation because Nazi's came to power once. It's all a bit US college campus post modernist.

david75

molloyjh wrote: »

But wasn't the point of the previous 6 films that the Jedi Order failed and Luke was different? Why is that now no longer the case for Luke but it is for Rey? Just because? If Luke saw and understood why the Jedi failed and yet still made the same mistakes, how are we to believe that Rey will be any better?

Also, Luke got dedicated training over a period of days from a committed Master. Rey got 3 very brief lessons from someone who had cut themselves off from the Force years before. And this after she had learned to Jedi Mind Trick by herself in TFA.

It's almost like Del Toros character said. It doesn't matter who wins, this will all just repeat itself over and over. That's definitely the message I got from the film. In which case, what's the bloody point? Yay, Luke saved the galaxy. No wait, he just doomed it to a worse fate. Yay, Rey saved the galaxy. Wait for it......

You might get something good out of this. Really gave me food for thought about my issues with it
http://www.slashfilm.com/the-last-jedi-defense/

The Nal

Saruhashi wrote: »

I thought it was strongly implied at the very start of RotJ that Luke has indeed been training and has become much more powerful with the force.

Yep. Luke off screen between Empire and Jedi.....




And here he is after himself and Lando hatched the plan to save Han Solo.

Tony EH

Osmosis Jones wrote: »

Adam Driver as Kylo is the Anakin we deserved but never got from the prequels

Yes. I've always thought this myself.

He would have been perfect.

Wouldn't have saved those films though unfortunately.

Noopti

For me, I am not really disappointed in the lack of Snoke backstory, more disappointed that I now don't get to see his future story!

For me he was excellently done, in the little screen time he had. He came across as pure malevolence & power and I was really excited to see where they would take his character. I was much more interested in seeing more of Snoke than Ren to be honest. Ren just doesn't strike me as the kind of person who can get the entire 1st Order to follow him, he doesn't have a sense of authority about him. Just an angry apprentice.

I hope they play on that in the next film, and we either see some split in the 1st Order or else Ren changes to become a more "mature" evil [email]b@stard.....if[/email] that makes sense!

Also the movie was about 30 mins too long. I wish they cut out the whole Canto Bight sequence.

Having said all that I still enjoyed it, and look forward to watching it again.

Edit: Also I LOVED the scene with Yoda. Had a smile on my face all the way through it.

The Nal

Noopti wrote: »

Also the movie was about 30 mins too long. I wish they cut out the whole Canto Bight sequence.

And some of the OJ slow car chase scene.

Penn

Wibbs wrote: »

True but he was nearly always bested by any betters that came along. Right up to the end and even then his da had to save him. He could barely move a few small boulders or his X wing, but Rey is at Jedi Master level out of the box with no training at all and can move whole mountains. There's even the hint of an in joke about it when Snoke notes Darth Emo was bested by a girl who had never even held a light sabre before.

"Darkness rises, and light to meet it" - Rey got more powerful as Kylo got more powerful. Their power is intrinsically linked. It's why she was able to fight Ren in TFA, she let go, let the Force act through her, and was able to beat him.

Ultimately, the Force is the balance between all things. We see it when Rey is being taught by Luke, when she connects to the Force she sees balance; warm and cold, life and death, light and dark. As Luke shut himself off from the Force and Snoke/Ren became more powerful, Rey gained a strong connection with the Force in order to provide that balance.

Wibbs wrote: »

Which is fine only it completely ignores that within the story those same Jedi and their books and "faith" helped keep the peace in the old republic for thousands of years. The only blip was the span of a lifetime length of the Empire they helped defeat in the end because of a couple of Jedi types were left. It would make as much sense as throwing away the idea of western civilisation because Nazi's came to power once. It's all a bit US college campus post modernist.

I think in a way, the books are square one. The Jedi and how they were for all those years spawned from the books, but became something else which ultimately led to their failure and allowing the Emperor and the Sith to rise. Likewise, Luke's own failure helped the First Order and Kylo to rise. Whereas now, Rey has a chance to start again from square one. Will she make the same mistakes or different mistakes? Quite possibly. But Luke now sees that it's better the begin anew than to simply destroy it altogether.

molloyjh

david75 wrote: »

You might get something good out of this. Really gave me food for thought about my issues with it
http://www.slashfilm.com/the-last-jedi-defense/

You're not going to like this, but that didn't help at all.

I really do get most of that stuff. I absolutely loved the Snoke scene with Rey and Kylo. I even dared hope that they might band together against both Luke and Snokes First Order, finding their own way in the whole mess. That together they were that balance of light and dark. That had the potential to be an incredibly interesting take on it all for me. Maybe have them fail to kill Snoke outright so that he remains the big bad for 9 and they take him on together. Luke happily steps back and realises his time is done. He is the last Jedi. Ben and Rey are something else. The conflict then comes on 2 fronts. The Resistance don't trust Ben while Snoke wants him and Rey dead. Leia goes to Luke to intervene and he refuses, making her see that they are on the right path etc.

But it's still all predicated on Luke's first instinct being to kill Ben. And I simply can't get past that. It works so long as you can take that on faith, but I don't see what would drive him to do that. Everything else falls apart when that bit doesn't work.

molloyjh

Penn wrote: »

"Darkness rises, and light to meet it" - Rey got more powerful as Kylo got more powerful. Their power is intrinsically linked.

Oh yeah, hello Matrix!

The Nal

Defo reminded me of the Matrix scene with the architect yeah. So much laid out, so much promise and then a damp fart.

homerun_homer

Lads, did they really build the Millennium Falcon in Donegal to not really show the ship around Irish/Ach To landscapes? In thinking about it, the only time I see the Falcon is Luke sneaking on at night past Chewie. That could have been done anywhere.

Tony EH

Saruhashi wrote: »

The humor. The style of the humor just didn't feel right to me. I only laughed at one or two lines but there were so many moments where I just groaned. If people didn't like the humor then that's gonna be a big black mark against the movie. Unless I just ignore it.

It's probably the worst sin of these sequels.

Humour is probably the hardest thing to get right in film. Horror is another. What appeals to some, won't appeal to others.

But, it's this penchant that's around these days that everything has to have some laughs, or it's somehow not complete? So they're written in. But far too often, it doesn't fit, doesn't feel natural or it just destroys the tension. The Marvel stuff is a prime example of that.

It's hard to write comedy. Very hard. And most people cannot do it.

The thing is, it isn't actually missed in a dramatic piece, if it isn't present. So, it inclusion is often a head scratcher.

Tony EH

molloyjh wrote: »

I can only speak for myself here, but the originals could get away with a lot because we were being introduced to the characters and the universe for the first time. In situations like that you simply have to take certain things on faith, and are more willing to do so.

When you're talking about sequels like this then they have to try to remain true to the source material and original characters while doing something different. A tricky balancing act to be sure. But for me they got it badly wrong. Luke for example went out of his way, put his life and the entire Rebellion on the line, to save his mass murdering father from the dark side. Yet when it came to his nephew, who hadn't even fallen to the dark side yet, his first instinct was to kill him. That just doesn't add up for me at all. It's great for Kyos character to have such a strong motivation, but it simply doesn't work for Lukes character at all.

And that seems to be an issue running through the film for me. A lot of work has gone into giving the new characters screen time and motivation while the original characters are almost an afterthought. And that's hard to take when the original characters were the ones who got us into the whole universe to begin with. We're already invested in them, and for them to be so badly used makes me feel a bit cheated.

Thing is, these new films aren't being written for folk who grew up on the original films. The 30 and 40 year old's in the audience want to see what happened to Luke, Han, Leia and whatnot. But to most of the millennial and post millennial audience (actual SW fans aside), these people are just cranky old guys taking up screen time.

So, when Luke does things that are wildly out of character, a lot of the audience won't care.

Hector Savage

david75 wrote: »

You might get something good out of this. Really gave me food for thought about my issues with it
http://www.slashfilm.com/the-last-jedi-defense/

Good article, but not the part about Snoke, he does matter - he clearly was powerful and saw the rise and fall of the empire - so he's been around.

They can't just chuck him aside and say his story is meaningless.

david75

molloyjh wrote: »

You're not going to like this, but that didn't help at all.

I really do get most of that stuff. I absolutely loved the Snoke scene with Rey and Kylo. I even dared hope that they might band together against both Luke and Snokes First Order, finding their own way in the whole mess. That together they were that balance of light and dark. That had the potential to be an incredibly interesting take on it all for me. Maybe have them fail to kill Snoke outright so that he remains the big bad for 9 and they take him on together. Luke happily steps back and realises his time is done. He is the last Jedi. Ben and Rey are something else. The conflict then comes on 2 fronts. The Resistance don't trust Ben while Snoke wants him and Rey dead. Leia goes to Luke to intervene and he refuses, making her see that they are on the right path etc.

But it's still all predicated on Luke's first instinct being to kill Ben. And I simply can't get past that. It works so long as you can take that on faith, but I don't see what would drive him to do that. Everything else falls apart when that bit doesn't work.

I think part of problem is for the very first time we’re gettin moral ambiguity in Star Wars and nit just the usual good v evil. We’re just not happy that it’s being portrayed through Luke.

But he sacrifices himself in the end and atones for it all so I’m good with that I think.

Tony EH

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

The Palpatine story itself had both appeal and potential (and was utterly wasted) but I really wanted to slap Lucas across the face for Jango Fett.

Oh I know. That whole Bobby Fett's da is the whole Clone Army thing. :rolleyes:

FFS.

I didn't need to know who Fett was. He was interesting purely because he was an unknown quantity. Another guy operating on the fringes.

Now I know he's just a Kiwi in a fancy suit. :mad:

Tony EH

Penn wrote: »

Luke had f*ck all training himself. He was with Yoda for a few days at most in Empire

There's three years between the events of 'Star Wars' and 'The Empire Strikes Back'.

It's not beyond reason that Luke sought out further information and studied in between.

So, technically, Luke has about three years of study underneath his belt before he even meets Yoda.